We saw in part I of this series that Alex Rosenberg’s new book The Atheist’s Guide to Reality is less about atheism than it is about scientism, the view that science alone gives us knowledge of reality. This is so in two respects. First, Rosenberg’s atheism is just one implication among others of his scientism, and the aim of the book is to spell out what else follows from scientism, rather than to say much in defense of atheism. Second, that it follows from his scientism is thus the only argument Rosenberg really gives for atheism. Thus, most of what he has to say ultimately rests on his scientism. If he has no good arguments for scientism, then he has no good arguments either for atheism or for most of the other, more bizarre, conclusions he defends in the book.
So, does Rosenberg have any good arguments for scientism? He does not. In fact, he has only one argument for it, and it is quite awful.
What is scientism?
Before we look at the argument, let’s consider how Rosenberg characterizes scientism:
“Scientism”… is the conviction that the methods of science are the only reliable ways to secure knowledge of anything; that science’s description of the world is correct in its fundamentals; and that when “complete,” what science tells us will not be surprisingly different from what it tells us today. (pp. 6-7)
As I’ve noted elsewhere (e.g. here, here, and here), the trouble with the claim that science is the only reliable source of knowledge is that it is either self-defeating or trivial -- self-defeating if we narrowly construe what counts as “science” (since scientism is itself a metaphysical and epistemological theory and not a view that physics, chemistry, or any other particular science has established) and trivial if we construe “science” broadly (since in that case philosophy, and in particular metaphysics and epistemology, count as “sciences” no less than physics, chemistry, and the like do). Rosenberg certainly avoids the second horn of this dilemma. For his construal of what counts as “science” is very narrow indeed:
If we’re going to be scientistic, then we have to attain our view of reality from what physics tells us about it. Actually, we’ll have to do more than that: we’ll have to embrace physics as the whole truth about reality. (p. 20)
To be sure, he does not deny that chemistry, biology, and neuroscience also give us knowledge. But that is only because he thinks they are reducible to physics: “The physical facts fix all the facts. [This] means that the physical facts constitute or determine or bring about all the rest of the facts.” (p. 26)
Now some naturalists will demur at this point, preferring a “non-reductive physicalism,” or “emergentism,” or some other such doctrine to Rosenberg’s radical reductionism. As a number of chemists and philosophers of chemistry have argued in recent years, it is at the very least debatable whether even chemistry is really reducible to physics. (For a useful overview of the literature, see chapter 5 of J. van Brakel’s book Philosophy of Chemistry. Also useful is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on the philosophy of chemistry.) Reductionism in biology is even more obviously open to challenge. And of course, whether consciousness and human thought and action can be accounted for in physicalist terms is notoriously controversial even among naturalists themselves -- Fodor, McGinn, Searle, Nagel, Levine, Strawson, and Chalmers are just some of the prominent naturalistic philosophers of mind who have been critical of existing attempts by their fellow naturalists to explain the mind in purely materialistic terms.
Now I sympathize with such arguments, but I don’t think they establish an alternative form of naturalism. For what they show, I would argue, is that higher-level features of material reality are no less real than the lower-level features, that the lower-level features are not somehow ontologically privileged. And in that way they show (even if only inchoately, and even if their proponents often do not realize it) that something like an Aristotelian, holistic conception of material substances is correct after all. Talk of “emergence,” “non-reductive physicalism,” and the like fudges this, because it insinuates that the lower-level features described by physics are still somehow more fundamental than the higher-level ones, even though the higher-level ones are acknowledged to be irreducible. The latter, it is implied, somehow have to “emerge” from the former. Such views are bound to sound obscurantist precisely because they amount to an unstable halfway position between reductionistic naturalism of the Rosenberg variety and traditional Aristotelian anti-reductionism.
I would say, then, that one has either to go the whole hog for Rosenberg-style reductionism or chuck out the whole naturalistic framework altogether (along with “emergence” and other such half-measures) and return to a full-blown Aristotelian metaphysics of material substances. To that extent I think Rosenberg is right to hold that if someone is committed to scientism, then he should hold that “the physical facts fix all the facts.” (Obviously some will dispute this conditional, but since it constitutes a point of agreement between Rosenberg and me, I won’t pursue it further here.)
If Rosenberg avoids the one horn of the dilemma, though, he thrusts himself headlong onto the other. For how exactly has scientism been established by physics, chemistry, biology, or even neuroscience (if we allow for the sake of argument that neuroscience is reducible to physics)? Does scientism make predictions that have been rigorously confirmed? Is there something like a Michelson-Morley experiment that scientism makes sense of in a way no rival theory does? To ask such questions is to answer them. The fact is that neuroscience hasn’t come close even to discovering exactly what it is that goes on in the brain when scientists form hypotheses, construct theories, make predictive inferences, develop experimental tests, write up their results, submit them for peer review, etc. That is to say, neuroscience hasn’t even explained the practice of science itself in purely neuroscientific categories, much less shown that no other practices can yield genuine knowledge. Scientism remains what it has always been -- a purely metaphysical speculation and not an empirical theory at all, much less a confirmed empirical theory.
No doubt we will be treated at this point to some hand-waving to the effect that even if neuroscience has not “yet” fully explained scientific practice, neither has it turned up any evidence that there are sources of knowledge other than science. But whether neuroscience is the only genuine source of knowledge about how we come to have knowledge is itself part of what is at issue in the dispute between scientism and its critics. Hence, to argue “We have no neuroscientific evidence that there is any genuine source of knowledge other than science, therefore there are no grounds at all for believing that there are any such alternative sources” would simply be to beg the question.
Rosenberg’s Gem
All of this might seem moot if Rosenberg had a really powerful argument in favor of scientism. But he does not. David Stove once gave the ironic label “the Gem” to a Berkeleyan argument for idealism he regarded as especially bad. Rosenberg’s argument for scientism gives Berkeley a run for his money, for it is a real Gem. He states it several times in the book:
The technological success of physics is by itself enough to convince anyone with anxiety about scientism that if physics isn’t “finished,” it certainly has the broad outlines of reality well understood. (p. 23)
And it’s not just the correctness of the predictions and the reliability of technology that requires us to place our confidence in physics’ description of reality. Because physics’ predictions are so accurate, the methods that produced the description must be equally reliable. Otherwise, our technological powers would be a miracle. We have the best of reasons to believe that the methods of physics -- combining controlled experiment and careful observation with mainly mathematical requirements on the shape theories can take -- are the right ones for acquiring all knowledge. Carving out some area of “inquiry” or “belief” as exempt from exploration by the methods of physics is special pleading or self-deception. (p. 24)
The phenomenal accuracy of its prediction, the unimaginable power of its technological application, and the breathtaking extent and detail of its explanations are powerful reasons to believe that physics is the whole truth about reality. (p. 25)
Rosenberg’s argument, then, is essentially this:
1. The predictive power and technological applications of physics are unparalleled by those of any other purported source of knowledge.
2. Therefore what physics reveals to us is all that is real.
How bad is this argument? About as bad as this one:
1. Metal detectors have had far greater success in finding coins and other metallic objects in more places than any other method has.
2. Therefore what metal detectors reveal to us (coins and other metallic objects) is all that is real.
Metal detectors are keyed to those aspects of the natural world susceptible of detection via electromagnetic means (or whatever). But however well they perform this task -- indeed, even if they succeeded on every single occasion they were deployed -- it simply wouldn’t follow for a moment that there are no aspects of the natural world other than the ones they are sensitive to. Similarly, what physics does -- and there is no doubt that it does it brilliantly -- is to capture those aspects of the natural world susceptible of the mathematical modeling that makes precise prediction and technological application possible. But here too, it simply doesn’t follow for a moment that there are no other aspects of the natural world.
Those who reject Rosenberg’s scientism, then, are not guilty of “special pleading or self-deception,” Rosenberg’s condescending bluster notwithstanding. Rather, they are (unlike Rosenberg) simply capable of recognizing a brazen non sequitur when they see it. Unfortunately, condescending bluster is all Rosenberg ever offers in addition to his favorite non sequitur. Here’s some more of it:
“Scientism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their theistic cake and dine at the table of science’s bounties, too. Opponents of scientism would never charge their cardiologists or auto mechanics or software engineers with “scientism” when their health, travel plans, or Web surfing are in danger. But just try subjecting their nonscientific mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to scientific scrutiny. The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “scientism.” (p. 6)
According to Rosenberg, then, unless you agree that science is the only genuine source of knowledge, you cannot consistently believe that it gives us any genuine knowledge. This is about as plausible as saying that unless you think metal detectors alone can detect physical objects, then you cannot consistently believe that they detect any physical objects at all. Perhaps someone who thinks that metal detectors give us exhaustive knowledge of the world could write up a Metallicist’s Guide to Reality and “argue” as follows:
“Metallicism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their stone, water, wood, and plastic cakes and dine at the table of metallic bounties, too. Opponents of metallicism would never charge their metal detector-owning friends with “metallicism” when they need help finding lost car keys or loose change in the sofa. But just try subjecting their nonmetallic mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to metallurgical scrutiny. The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “metallicism.”
Of course, “metallicism” is preposterous. But so is Rosenberg’s scientism.
Those beholden to scientism are bound to protest that the analogy is no good, on the grounds that metal detectors detect only part of reality while physics detects the whole of it. But such a reply would simply beg the question once again, for whether physics really does describe the whole of reality is precisely what is at issue.
I am being hard on Rosenberg, and he deserves it for putting forward such transparently bad arguments, and with such arrogance. But it is only fair to note that he is hardly alone in the delusion that his Gem is some kind of knockdown argument for scientism. One hears this stupid non sequitur over and over and over again when arguing with New Atheist types. It is implicit every time some Internet Infidel asks triumphantly: “Where are the predictive successes and technological applications of philosophy or theology?” This is about as impressive as our fictional “metallicist” smugly demanding: “Where are the metal-detecting successes of gardening, cooking, and painting?” -- and then high-fiving his fellow metallicists when we are unable to offer any examples, thinking that he has established that plants, food, works of art, and indeed anything non-metallic are all non-existent. For why on earth should we believe that only methods capable of detecting metals give us genuine access to reality? And why on earth should we believe that if something is real, then it must be susceptible of the mathematically precise prediction and technological application characteristic of physics? I submit that there is no answer to this question that doesn’t beg the question.
As always, earlier generations of skeptics were wiser than the intellectually backward Dawkins generation. For instance, Bertrand Russell was well aware that, far from giving us an exhaustive picture of reality, physics in fact gives us is very nearly the opposite, and is unintelligible unless there is more to reality than what it reveals to us:
It is not always realised how exceedingly abstract is the information that theoretical physics has to give. It lays down certain fundamental equations which enable it to deal with the logical structure of events, while leaving it completely unknown what is the intrinsic character of the events that have the structure. We only know the intrinsic character of events when they happen to us. Nothing whatever in theoretical physics enables us to say anything about the intrinsic character of events elsewhere. They may be just like the events that happen to us, or they may be totally different in strictly unimaginable ways. All that physics gives us is certain equations giving abstract properties of their changes. But as to what it is that changes, and what it changes from and to—as to this, physics is silent. (My Philosophical Development, p. 13)
Moreover, physics’ tremendous success at prediction and technological application is precisely the result of its deliberate neglect of any aspect of reality that does not fit its mathematically-oriented methods. Early modern thinkers like Bacon and Descartes sought to reorient science in a practical, this-worldly, technological direction. Mathematics facilitated this; aspects of the world that couldn’t be mathematically modeled were a distraction. Hence they were relegated to the status of mere “secondary qualities,” or treated as features that are the proper study of metaphysics rather than physics. That was less a metaphysical discovery, though, than a methodological stipulation. If you set out to study only those aspects of reality that might be rigorously predictable and controllable, then you are bound to find that those are the only ones you discover. But it is preposterous to pretend that you have thereby shown that there are no other aspects of reality, just as it would be preposterous for the “metallicist” to pretend that his exclusive focus on those objects that might be detected electromagnetically shows that there are no non-metals. (See The Last Superstition for more detailed discussion of this theme.)
What Rosenberg and others beholden to scientism have done, then, is simply to confuse method with metaphysics (an occupational hazard of post-Galilean science and post-Cartesian philosophy, as E. A. Burtt warned in his classic book The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Physical Science). The fallacious blurring of epistemology and metaphysics is, of course, also a feature of many idealist arguments, which is why Stove thought they merited our scorn. All the more appropriately, then, might we label Rosenberg’s argument a “Gem.”
Scientism versus teleology
Among the features of the world physics deliberately ignores for its purposes are those that involve final causality. As Rosenberg writes:
Ever since physics hit its stride with Newton, it has excluded purposes, goals, ends, or designs in nature. It firmly bans all explanations that are teleological… (p. 40)
As the words “exclusion” and “ban” indicate, though, this is, yet again, merely a methodological stipulation. By itself it tells us nothing at all about whether teleology is real. Again, if the designer of a metal detector says “For purposes of metal detection, let’s ignore every feature of the objects we’re after except their electromagnetic properties,” then he is naturally going to pay no attention to whether this or that object is a coin, or a key, or a thumbtack, or even whether it is made of iron as opposed to nickel. But it obviously does not follow that the only real properties of the objects the metal detector finds are their electromagnetic properties, and that we should be eliminativists about coins, keys, thumbtacks, iron, and nickel. Similarly, since teleological features cannot be modeled mathematically, the early moderns – thinkers who, following Bacon and Descartes, wanted to turn science in a practical, this-worldly direction and thus toward a focus on prediction and control – decided to ignore them. But (as it cannot be repeated too frequently) it simply doesn’t follow that such features do not exist.
Rosenberg no doubt thinks an appeal to Ockham’s razor justifies such an inference. He writes:
Since Newton 350 years ago, [physics] has always succeeded in providing a nonteleological theory to deal with each of the new explanatory and experimental challenges it has faced. That track record is tremendously strong evidence for concluding that its still-unsolved problems will submit to nonteleological theories. (p. 40)
The implication is that since physics hasn’t ever needed to postulate final causes, we can infer with confidence that it will not need to do so in the future; and if it does not need to do so, the principle of parsimony should lead us to conclude that final causes don’t exist.
But there are several problems with such an argument. For one thing, Rosenberg’s main reason for denying the existence of teleology, plans, purposes, designs, intentionality, and the like at the biological level and even at the level of the human mind, is that physics has ruled teleology and cognate notions out of science altogether. But in that case an appeal to Ockham’s razor of the sort just considered would lead Rosenberg into a “No True Scotsman” fallacy. He will be saying, in effect: Physics can explain everything that exists without appealing to teleology. So, by Ockham’s razor, teleology must not be a real feature of the world. Of course, biological functions, human thought and action, and the like cannot be understood except in teleological terms. But that just shows that they must not really exist, because teleology doesn’t exist, because physics can explain everything that exists without it!
Another problem is that something like teleology is necessary to explain the facts that physics describes, at least if we regard any of them as embodying genuine causal relations. That is, in any event, the view of a number of contemporary philosophers of science and metaphysicians – George Molnar, C. B. Martin, John Heil, and other “new essentialist” writers – who have no theological ax to grind, but who regard dispositions as “directed at” their manifestations and thus as exhibiting what Molnar calls a kind of “physical intentionality.” This is (as historian of philosophy Walter Ott has noted) essentially a return to an Aristotelian-Scholastic understanding of final causality as a precondition of the intelligibility of efficient causality. Unless we suppose that an efficient cause A inherently “points” beyond itself to its typical effect (or range of effects) B as toward an end or goal, we have no way of making sense of why it is that A reliably does in fact generate B rather than C, D, or no effect at all.
Rosenberg doesn’t see the possibility of such a view because he has only the crudest conception of teleology -- he evidently thinks that a teleological explanation is one that simply postulates that “God designed it that way.” No one familiar with the Aristotelian and Scholastic traditions would make such a mistake, though someone who supposes that teleology and natural theology stand or fall with Paley-style “design arguments” is likely to. (As I have noted before, Rosenberg’s knowledge of natural theology seems to derive mostly from whatever was in the anthology his undergrad PHIL 101 teacher was using.)
Rosenberg also supposes that the second law of thermodynamics is incompatible with the existence of teleology. For “the second law tells us that the universe is headed to complete disorder” (in particular, heat death) and “no purpose or goal can be secured permanently under such circumstances” (p. 41). But the existence of teleology doesn’t require that an end or goal be realized permanently. And insofar as the second law of thermodynamics describes causal regularities -- and in particular a tendency toward disorder -- it would itself be an instance of teleology, not a counterexample to it.
(The subject of teleology is one I have devoted much attention to elsewhere , e.g. in chapter 6 of The Last Superstition, chapter 2 of Aquinas, and in a great many blog posts on the dispute between Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy and “Intelligent Design” theory. I won’t repeat myself here -- interested readers are directed to these sources.)
So, Rosenberg has no good arguments for scientism, and thus no good arguments either for atheism or for the other, more bizarre conclusions he derives from scientism. As we will see in the remaining posts in this series, some of those conclusions are in any event incoherent, and thus constitute a reductio ad absurdum of the premises that lead to them.
Before turning to these conclusions, though, it will be worthwhile examining Rosenberg’s brief attempt to counter kalam-style arguments for God as the cause of the Big Bang, with some alternative cosmological speculations of his own. We’ll do so in the next post in this series.
[Addendum: A reader calls attention to this critique of Rosenberg by Timothy Williamson, which dovetails with some of the points made above. A key line: “Those most confident of being undogmatic and possessing the scientific spirit may thereby become all the less able to detect dogmatism and failures of the scientific spirit in themselves.”]


Dguller,
ReplyDeleteBut wait! You are ignoring the differences, and thus it is only partially univocal, according to Josh.
What?! His and my definition are the same...the referent is 'red,' and the sense is the same. Therefore it's univocal. The grass is green, the house is green: univocal.
Fourth, look at some common analogies: “Life is like a box of chocolates”, and “John fought like a lion”. What is the common attribute that drives these analogies, and do they share the exact same mode and degree?
Those are similies. They express a common way of acting, and no, they don't share the same mode, or sense...
I'm not sure you've understood what I've been saying...Michael and I don't differ, except in the particular terms we are using to describe the parts.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteEven supposing I make "referent" stand for univocal property (not sure I can), there's still something in my definition that is not explicitly in yours. You can say it's implied, but I can look at your definition and nothing prevents me (aside from common sense) from saying that X and Y could share all properties; all we are concerned about is one. But then, that wouldn't be an analogy at all, I'm sure you'll agree. Aquinas' use is clearer.
Fine. Let’s revise my definition to make the implications explicit:
X is like Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical; (2) X and Y share at least one common attribute; AND (3) X and Y do not share at least one attribute
Can we agree with this definition of analogy? And all my argument requires is condition (2), which is why I have been focusing upon it, especially since everything else is implied by the definition of “similarity”. Anyway, now that the definition of “analogy” is fully explicit – I hope! – can we now focus upon condition (2), because that is where the problem lies.
As to your earlier argument, we can't get to the divine attributes until Aquinas' definitions pass muster. Because the twofold division of types of analogy comes next; analogates are understood per prius et posterius; in primary and secondary order, where the primary sense or ratio propria is understood to be only in one of the analogates. Only one of the two types is applicable to God, according to Aquinas. But don't shoot holes in that yet, as we can't even see eye to eye on the difference in definitions...
If we agree with the definition of “analogy” above, then you are free to expand upon the ideas in the above passage, hopefully with lots of examples.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThose are similies. They express a common way of acting, and no, they don't share the same mode, or sense...
It doesn’t matter. There are metaphors, similes, analogies, or whatever. What they all share in common is a comparison of two terms on the basis of a shared attribute. They are just expressed in different words, but the core idea is the same.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteX is like Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical; (2) X and Y share at least one common attribute; AND (3) X and Y do not share at least one attribute
Can we agree with this definition of analogy? And all my argument requires is condition (2), which is why I have been focusing upon it, especially since everything else is implied by the definition of “similarity”. Anyway, now that the definition of “analogy” is fully explicit – I hope! – can we now focus upon condition (2), because that is where the problem lies.
Forgive me, but no, I can't agree, because it's not clear that where two things are different in an analogy is precisely in the sense in which the common attribute is found in both of the analogates. The conjunction of 2 and 3 leaves open that the conditions that satisfy 3 could be wholly irrelevant: e.g., man and triangles are both good, even though humans like to eat food. See what I mean? There's a dyadic relationship at the center of the analogy...
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteIt doesn’t matter. There are metaphors, similes, analogies, or whatever. What they all share in common is a comparison of two terms on the basis of a shared attribute. They are just expressed in different words, but the core idea is the same.
I agree with this, of course. You asked what the common attribute was, and whether they shared in the same sense. Those are a particular type of analogy, so they fit.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteForgive me, but no, I can't agree, because it's not clear that where two things are different in an analogy is precisely in the sense in which the common attribute is found in both of the analogates.
Say that we are trying to compare X and Y, and it is on the basis of a shared attribute that carries the sense S.
S is either simple or compound.
If S is simple, then S is identical when used as the basis of the comparison of X and Y, and thus univocal.
If S is compound, then it is obvious that when S is broken down into simple sub-senses (say, S1, S2, and S3), then at least one of these simple sub-senses (say, S1) must be common to both X and Y, and the different senses (say, S2 and S3), can be discarded. That is because if none of the sub-senses is common, then there is no comparison possible. And if S1 remains identical between X and Y, then it is univocal.
I honestly don’t see how you can get out of this dilemma. For your argument to work, you would have to argue that S can be compound (i.e. be composed of S1, S2 and S3), but indivisible (and thus, simple), which is just contradictory.
Again, at some point in the analysis, there must be a common attribute, property, sense, reference, or whatever, that is identical between X and Y. If there isn’t, then there is no comparison possible, because X and Y would have nothing in common!
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnother way to look at it is that unless the senses can settle upon an identical sense that is shared between X and Y, then you have an infinite regress. And if you are comfortable with an infinite regress in meaning, then why not also in cosmology?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteSay that we are trying to compare X and Y, and it is on the basis of a shared attribute that carries the sense S.
It's already "compound" here then. Shared attribute (referent) + the "carried" sense in which it's signified (sense).
If S is simple, then S is identical when used as the basis of the comparison of X and Y, and thus univocal.
If this means that the sense and reference are the same in X and Y, then this is the definition of univocal that I presented above.
Again, at some point in the analysis, there must be a common attribute, property, sense, reference, or whatever, that is identical between X and Y. If there isn’t, then there is no comparison possible, because X and Y would have nothing in common!
Do I need to go through the definitions again?
Univocal terms have the same thing signified (referent) and the same way of signifying it in the relevant uses (sense).
Equivocal terms signify different things.
Analogical terms signify the same thing (here is your common property), but in different senses in each analogate.
I'm not sure how I can make this clearer...
Josh:
ReplyDeleteDo I need to go through the definitions again?
Univocal terms have the same thing signified (referent) and the same way of signifying it in the relevant uses (sense).
Equivocal terms signify different things.
Analogical terms signify the same thing (here is your common property), but in different senses in each analogate.
And finally, I think we come down to it!
Here we go:
Are the different senses that refer to a common referent, as required by your definition of “analogy”, simple or compound?
If they are simple, then they are univocal, and then one can understand God univocally, and Aquinas is wrong.
If they are compound, then they are composed of sub-senses. Either (1) (at least) one of these sub-senses must be simple, and have the same sense and reference in both analogates, and thus be univocal, or (2) you have an infinite regress.
If (1) is true, then one can understand God univocally, and Aquinas is wrong.
If (2) is true, then either (2a) one accepts an infinite regress in meaning, and thus lose all justification in rejecting an infinite regress is cosmology and metaphysics, and Aquinas is wrong, or (2b) one rejects an infinite regress, and one admits that analogy cannot be the basis of any understanding of anything, and Aquinas is wrong.
Take your pick.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI don't follow that dilemma at all (surprise, surprise). Perhaps it's because of this:
Are the different senses that refer to a common referent, as required by your definition of “analogy”, simple or compound?
If they are simple, then they are univocal, and then one can understand God univocally, and Aquinas is wrong.
If the senses are understood simply (I take you to mean not composed of parts), it doesn't follow that the comparison of a sense in one analogate must be the same as in the other. As a matter of fact, it is that difference that makes the common term analogical and not univocal.
Maybe we can cut to the chase with the ultimate example:
Definition: Being-"that which is" (an essence exercising the act of existence in its own particular way)
So, Man and God alike in Being, where Being is understood as an analogical term, a concrete term of the sort we've been discussing.
The common referent would be the act of existing, and the senses would be different in each, finitely, or according to our essence, in the analogate of Man, and in an indeterminate way in God, according to his essence. In understanding this we understand that the proper sense of Being is found in God from which we derive our secondary sense.
All this relies on the proofs that come before talk of the divine names; existence, simplicity, etc. If it is recognized that God must exist, then that is the similarity that the analogies are founded on, the act of existence.
To relate this to your dilemma, I'd say the senses in which a referent is predicated of two analogates are "simple" but different...meaning I'll take (1) I suppose but deny the implication.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteIf the senses are understood simply (I take you to mean not composed of parts), it doesn't follow that the comparison of a sense in one analogate must be the same as in the other. As a matter of fact, it is that difference that makes the common term analogical and not univocal.
To relate this to your dilemma, I'd say the senses in which a referent is predicated of two analogates are "simple" but different...meaning I'll take (1) I suppose but deny the implication.
Okay, so you would prefer (1) in my argument as your preferred option. No problem.
Let’s explore this a bit.
Say that you are comparing X and Y on the basis of sense S that is referring to referent R. In other words, X has S (which refers to R) and Y has S (which refers to R). S is simple, which means that it is not composed of parts. You are claiming that X’s S is different from Y’s S.
Upon what basis is S different in X and Y if S has no parts?
To me, this idea is just incoherent. If S is simple and shared by both X and Y, then S must be identical in both X and Y.
And don’t just assert that S is different in X and Y, but rather demonstrate it, if you can. And it isn’t good enough to just deny the implication. I am really curious exactly how a simple S is different when it is shared by X and Y.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd just to be clear, when I talk about “parts”, I am referring to sub-senses, which are presupposed by the original sense to have meaning. For example, the sentence “John is running” presupposes the sub-senses of “John” and “running”, which each presuppose further sub-senses of “human being” and “motion”, for example.
Again: if X and Y both share a common S that refers to R, and S does not have any sub-senses, then how exactly does S differ from X to Y?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI am really curious exactly how a simple S is different when it is shared by X and Y.
Two things are compared on the basis of the referent, which has different senses S in each. The S is not shared by X and Y. The referent is. Go back to the man/triangle distinction. The senses (S) of the referent (Good) are different in each. In man, good carries a moral sense that is not shared by the triangle. The S is not the same. Is that demonstration enough?
And just to be clear, when I talk about “parts”, I am referring to sub-senses, which are presupposed by the original sense to have meaning. For example, the sentence “John is running” presupposes the sub-senses of “John” and “running”, which each presuppose further sub-senses of “human being” and “motion”, for example.
Hmm, not sure what you're getting at here. First, it would probably be better to limit your examples to an analogy as opposed to a simple predication. How about John is like my car in that they are both running? The referent would be the common property of "running" however that's defined as common, and then the senses would be different according to how you defined "running." Yes, there are a plurality of senses, but by focusing on where the analogates are the same (referent), you necessarily limit the senses S that you can use. In the case of man/triangle/good, we just need the most relevant senses of good that are different; what sense does X have that Y doesn't, and choose those in our predication.
Hence, good applied to man has a perfection (sense) that the triangle can't have, the moral one. IOW, I don't think it matters that there are many senses, it just matters that the ones you choose are opposed to each other.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteTwo things are compared on the basis of the referent, which has different senses S in each. The S is not shared by X and Y. The referent is. Go back to the man/triangle distinction. The senses (S) of the referent (Good) are different in each. In man, good carries a moral sense that is not shared by the triangle. The S is not the same. Is that demonstration enough?
A few things.
First, once again, and using the man-triangle example, why is the distinguishing moral sense important when making the analogy? Why isn’t it enough to just say that they are both “good” in the sense and reference of “exemplifying one’s nature”? One does this with morality, and another does not. So what? The whole point of analogies is to emphasize the similarities and not the differences, even though they are always present, because similarity is not identity.
Second, sense is how we reach the referent. So, if S is not shared in any way by X and Y, then how can we reach a common R? In other words, if X and Y can have completely different senses, then how can you say that they have the same referent? There must be similarities in the senses if there is an identical referent. Look at the morning star and evening star Fregean example. They are both astrological objects that shine in the sky, which would be there common sense, and they also both refer to Venus. For your claim to be plausible, it would be possible for there to be a sense of a red dog and a sense of a purple boat, but they still refer to the same thing. That just seems incoherent.
First, it would probably be better to limit your examples to an analogy as opposed to a simple predication. How about John is like my car in that they are both running? The referent would be the common property of "running" however that's defined as common, and then the senses would be different according to how you defined "running." Yes, there are a plurality of senses, but by focusing on where the analogates are the same (referent), you necessarily limit the senses S that you can use.
So, even though the senses can be similar, that isn’t relevant, because only the referent is relevant?
In the case of man/triangle/good, we just need the most relevant senses of good that are different; what sense does X have that Y doesn't, and choose those in our predication.
How do you decide what the “relevant senses” are? Why not just focus upon the similarities, which is the whole point of an analogy? Remember, an analogy is supposed to help us understand something we do not know on the basis of something that we do know by postulating a similarity between them.
Hence, good applied to man has a perfection (sense) that the triangle can't have, the moral one. IOW, I don't think it matters that there are many senses, it just matters that the ones you choose are opposed to each other.
Why do they have to oppose each other? You keep emphasizing the fact that analogies involve differences when this was never in dispute. Analogies always have more differences than similarities, and so if you want to focus upon the differences, then you will lose the whole point of the analogy to begin with. The money is in the similarities, not the differences. So, why the repeated return to differences? How does that facilitate the purpose of analogies?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThey are both astrological objects that shine in the sky, which would be there common sense, and they also both refer to Venus.
The senses relevant to that example are these: one shines in the morning, and the other in the evening. Those are what make the analogy. If you are just limiting the senses to what is common to both the evening star and morning star, then you are speaking univocally...
So, even though the senses can be similar, that isn’t relevant, because only the referent is relevant?
No, both the sense and the referent are relevant. Analogy is not merely about emphasizing similarity OVER the difference. It's about emphasizing the similarity-in-difference, equally.
How do you decide what the “relevant senses” are?
The ones where the senses are not shared are the relevant ones.
Analogies always have more differences than similarities, and so if you want to focus upon the differences, then you will lose the whole point of the analogy to begin with. The money is in the similarities, not the differences. So, why the repeated return to differences? How does that facilitate the purpose of analogies?
Because, for an analogy to work, I need one common thing (the similarity), and ONE difference according to that similarity. They work together. They can't be separated. And it doesn't matter that there are more differences than similarities, because I just need one sense of the referent in one of the analogates that isn't present in the other one.
dguller
ReplyDeleteI will leave you in Josh's capable hands for coming to agreement (or not) with respect to Aquinas's definition of analogy. And I apologize upfront for the long post.
Right now I wanted to address what you consider the illegitimate ad hocness of understanding God analogically only.
First we need to be clear that God has no accidents (properties, attributes, or whatever you want to call them. Unhelpfully, I'm going to stick with the Scholastic terminology because it's fresh from my reading and I don't want to introduce error by attempting to contemporize.)
How do we conclude this? Well common accidents (which earlier I called just "accidents") result from the way a subject is made actual. You can ask, "why is the car red?" or "why is the apple red?" and the answer is because of the way it was made actual. But God is Pure Act, nothing actualized Him.
Neither does he have proper or essential accidents (which earlier I called just "properties") because such essential accidents are caused by constituent principles of the subject. But God is First Cause, and has nothing potential - there can be nothing caused in God.
Your definition of analogy seems to insist that X "has accidentally" some term (or "has as a property", "has as an attribute", whatever) so the definition has difficulty handling: X "is" some term. Let's take God, goodness, a man.
God is His Goodness. A good man has goodness as an accident.
A man's goodness differs from God's Goodness in that a man's is imperfect and finite (degree of being) and is also accidental (mode of being). But we're still talking about "goodness", right?
You may prefer "X is like Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical; (2) X and Y share at least one common attribute" but there's certainly nothing ad hoc in Aquinas's determination that God has no "attribute" (ie, accident) to share with Y. Also your definition seems to arbitrarily rule out a case where X *is* attribute.
Now is there another analogical example of this sort without God as an analogate? I'm not sure (I wanted to use "triangularity" and "an actual triangle" but not sure it works: triangularity is a *proper* accident of any actual triangle.) But even if not, this uniqueness is not ad hoc but follows from God's being Pure Act.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThe senses relevant to that example are these: one shines in the morning, and the other in the evening. Those are what make the analogy. If you are just limiting the senses to what is common to both the evening star and morning star, then you are speaking univocally...
Let’s skip that example, because it’s not an analogy, but a case of identity. It is not that the evening star is like the morning star. The evening star is the morning star.
No, both the sense and the referent are relevant. Analogy is not merely about emphasizing similarity OVER the difference. It's about emphasizing the similarity-in-difference, equally.
What does that even mean? Take the example of “life is like a box of chocolates”. We are comparing “life” and “a box of chocolates”. This comparison is possible, because both life and a box of chocolates share the attribute of surprising us. Life can surprise us. A box of chocolates can surprise us. What exactly is the “similarity-in-difference” here? I mean, life is not a box of chocolates, and so the terms are definitely different, but so what? How does that add anything to the comparison? The whole point of an analogy is to focus upon the common attributes, and not the different ones.
Even in this example, there are important differences. For example, one can avoid the surprises involved in a box of chocolates by just not opening it, or by throwing it out. However, one cannot avoid the surprises that happen in life, even if one tries to avoid them. Another example: the surprises associated with a box of chocolates is something that is made by humans, but the surprises associated with life also involve non-human parts of the world.
There. I’ve mentioned a bunch of important differences involved in the comparison. Do you feel like you understand the analogy better? Did it add anything to the analogy? I don’t think so, and I doubt that anyone would agree with you. So, if it is largely irrelevant, then why treat it as if it is essential.
Of course there are differences involved in similarity. That is what “similarity” means. The interest that people have in analogies is in the similarities between the compared terms. No-one uses them for the differences, because that does not further our knowledge at all. Think about it. We understand X, and we do not understand Y. How does it help us to say that Y is different from X? Y remains not understood. But, if we say that Y has attributes similar to X, then we have extended our knowledge into Y. That is the point of analogies. I honestly do not understand your point about always keeping the difference in mind when that adds nothing to the analogy, except keeping us exactly where we started from, i.e. in ignorance.
The ones where the senses are not shared are the relevant ones.
An example?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteBecause, for an analogy to work, I need one common thing (the similarity), and ONE difference according to that similarity. They work together. They can't be separated. And it doesn't matter that there are more differences than similarities, because I just need one sense of the referent in one of the analogates that isn't present in the other one.
What this comes down to is whether the sense in the common attribute can be compound. Take the example of the goodness of a triangle and a human being. They both share the common sense of “good” as referring to “exemplifying the nature of a being”. Neither of us disagree with this common sense and referent. We also agree that there are important differences between these types of goodness, such as the moral component of goodness in human beings, which is absent in triangles.
You claim that the moral component is absolutely inseparable from the sense of “goodness” regarding human beings, but that is not true at all. Look at the above paragraph. I did what you claim is impossible. I separated the moral component from goodness, and yet everything I said still made perfect sense. The point is that sense is not a unitary phenomenon that cannot possibly be separated into sub-components. Or do you deny that this is possible? And if not, then why not?
And don't just assert it. Demonstrate it.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteA man's goodness differs from God's Goodness in that a man's is imperfect and finite (degree of being) and is also accidental (mode of being). But we're still talking about "goodness", right?
This is not about metaphysical demonstrations. This is about semantic meaning and linguistic communication. In order to have metaphysical demonstrations, there must be semantic content to the premises.
Aquinas argues that the only way for us to talk about God is by analogy with created beings. That would presume that God and created beings have something in common, whatever you want to call it. It seems that no-one can say what this “something” is supposed to be, but everyone is sure that it is there. Why? Because without it, we could not talk about God. That is why I said it was ad hoc and arbitrary. It does not follow from metaphysical deductions, but rather makes them possible to begin with. So, if there is no good reason to believe that this “something” is there, other than a deep desire to talk about God, then I call it arbitrary, and call “special pleading”.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteLook at the above paragraph. I did what you claim is impossible. I separated the moral component from goodness, and yet everything I said still made perfect sense. The point is that sense is not a unitary phenomenon that cannot possibly be separated into sub-components. Or do you deny that this is possible? And if not, then why not?
Surely you draw a distinction between the ability to speak separately about things in the mind, and being separate in reality? Think hylemorphic dualism; we can distinguish between mind and body in our mind, as concepts, but we can't dissolve the union in reality just because we can do that...in a proposition about the real world the subject and predicate are only distinguished in the proposition.
My claim is though we can distinguish between things in our mind as judgments, this isn't equal to judging them as separate in reality.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThe interest that people have in analogies is in the similarities between the compared terms. No-one uses them for the differences, because that does not further our knowledge at all.
Are you seriously saying that knowledge of the way in which something is not does not further our knowledge? The one and the many, the same and different, cast each other in relief in every meaningful thing we know. If things were not different, then they would all be the same, and vice versa. To know each is profoundly useful for knowledge, and I think it finds its most profound synthesis in analogy.
I would like to retract this statement of mine: “The parts of a referent in univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication should not be confused with referents, however identical the parts of the referent may be across both predications.” as I jumbled my terminology.
ReplyDeletedguller said,
“But remember that two humans could be laughing for different reasons...”
First, this was meant for Jack. And second, I meant rather the capacity for laughter as a proper property in the A/T sense as it flows from the essence of rational animal but is not the essence.
““Univocal” just means that the “same meaning” carries over from one sentence to another. Whether you are talking about the same sense or reference, the bottom line is that “something” has to remain the same for any comparison to get off the ground. If you are now arguing that “same” is different from “identity”, then I’m afraid we are now hopelessly lost in sophistry.”
I am arguing that you seem to think “univocal” is the same as “identity”. “Univocal” certainly does incorporate the concept of identity but it is not the whole of it. For instance, while “univocal” is first and foremost about language, it doesn't concern itself with tokens. If you said you had a univocal term that carries the same meaning in both predications, that would be different than if you said you had an identical term in both predications. The latter deals with tokens while the former does not.
Degree and mode of being. Mode of being translates very well into what underlies Josh's “sense”. Degree of being seems to take an ultimate final causality approach to what underlies (well, in this case it at least doesn't make reference to linguistics) Josh's “thing signified”. Josh is using the more linguistic focused terms while I am using the more metaphysical focused terms. But I am open to any critiques if I am in fact using sub-optimal terminology. Josh has been doing well so I will leave you to reread over his posts on the distinction.
Bottom line: you can talk all day how your version, heck even the modern and widely accepted version, of analogy is different than Aquinas' and the scholastic tradition. But if you want to refute him you need to understand his definitions and not demand that the world conforms to your own. I am beginning to wish that scholastic analogy would be translated today as something like “gigglefeathers” because it would prevent a lot of assumptions (though perhaps raise others), even though there is a similarity. In the context of modern philosophy with its lack of proper distinctions it is just a major headache.
You have a different definition of “properties” than Aquinas.
You have a different definition of “univocal” than Aquinas, and subsequently, because you break everything down to univocallity, you have a different definition of “analogical” and “equivocal” as well. How can you say that Aquinas is wrong when you misinterpret what he says?
If I may speak more loosely for a moment: what's getting you is that you keep hearing a voice in your head that says Aquinas said that analogical language about God doesn't share any properties with creatures, therefore he must be wrong (and right you are if he said what you think he does)! You have a misunderstanding of what properties mean in the context and thus there is no reason to gather the lynching mob. Hold off a bit... gather the townspeople first.
If you desire to disagree with Aquinas you must first show how your definitions of “property” (or even attribute and the other terms you make it synonymous with) are correct and his are wrong. But this is only possible if you realize that his definitions are different than yours. And once you do that, you'll see that even though Aquinas was wrong, he is not guilty of a faulty argument but guilty of speaking another language.
I'm on board with "gigglefeathers," just for the record.
ReplyDeleteDguller,
I'm not sure how I can demonstrate that sense and reference are present in every meaningful concrete term, other than to say, when we say something, there is what is signified and how we signify it, and understanding both are necessary to understand what we mean when we say something.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteMy claim is though we can distinguish between things in our mind as judgments, this isn't equal to judging them as separate in reality.
First, I suppose that moral goodness is also related to urination, because in reality one cannot be a moral agent without a functioning urinary system, right?
Second, an analogy is a judgment in our mind about reality, and thus our mind is able to manipulate concepts to arrive at truths about the world. Our mind identifies two beings, separates properties that they have in common, and uses those properties to connect the two beings in a way to further our understanding. I mean, where did you think our analogy occurs?
Are you seriously saying that knowledge of the way in which something is not does not further our knowledge?
Of course not. But we are talking about analogy. Analogy takes two different things, identifies common properties, and uses those common properties to further our understanding. Sure, there are other ways of learning about the world by virtue of focusing upon differences and negation, but that is not relevant to analogy.
Remember what the whole point of analogy is. It is to highly connections between things to further our understanding. In some cases, it takes something that we know (i.e. X) and something that we do not know (i.e. Y), postulates a common property that X and Y share, and then uses that common property to extend our knowledge of Y based upon our knowledge of Y. For example, “a photon is like a particle and like a wave”. In other cases, analogy extends our knowledge by taking two things that we know, and highlighting a connection between them to expand our concepts. For example, “life is like a box of chocolates”, in which we know both things (i.e. life and a box of chocolates), but this analogy highlights the fact that both are full of surprises for us.
Your point about differences is completely useless in the first type of analogy, and might have some use in the second type. For example, you could say that God is not like created beings, which is actually important to know.
Regardless, none of this explains how God and created beings can share common properties (loosely defined) to justify an analogous relationship to begin with. You agree that they must have something in common, but you also admit that you have no idea what this “something” is supposed to be. My claim is that this “something” must be sufficiently similar to be identical at some level of analysis. This is true of every type of analogy, and should therefore hold for analogies between God and creation. You argue that there is never a level of analysis where there is an identical property shared between two terms in an analogy, and that it is always similar-in-difference. But you ignore the fact that “similar” just means “the same in some ways, but different in others”. In other words, “sameness” is part of the very concept of “similarity”, and thus you cannot have similarity without sameness somewhere.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how I can demonstrate that sense and reference are present in every meaningful concrete term, other than to say, when we say something, there is what is signified and how we signify it, and understanding both are necessary to understand what we mean when we say something.
You don’t have to demonstrate that. I agree with that. What I want you to demonstrate is that at no point in the comparison between analogous terms is there an common property with an identical sense and reference. You keep asserting that this must happen, and when I come up with an identical sense and reference for a common property that grounds an analogy, you go off on a tangent about how what I just did was impossible, because it’s all in my mind! As I mentioned, an analogy is a mental construct, and so of course it is in my mind. Where else would it be? It is an abstraction from reality, and thus is necessarily artificial.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteI am arguing that you seem to think “univocal” is the same as “identity”.
I am saying that in any example of univocal meaning there must be an identical meaning being carried from one sentence to another. I agree with Josh that that should involve an identical sense and reference.
Degree and mode of being. Mode of being translates very well into what underlies Josh's “sense”. Degree of being seems to take an ultimate final causality approach to what underlies (well, in this case it at least doesn't make reference to linguistics) Josh's “thing signified”.
So, “mode of being” is “sense” and “degree of being” is “reference”?
I am beginning to wish that scholastic analogy would be translated today as something like “gigglefeathers” because it would prevent a lot of assumptions (though perhaps raise others), even though there is a similarity. In the context of modern philosophy with its lack of proper distinctions it is just a major headache.
So, Aquinas’ “analogy” is analogous to ordinary “analogy”? And if it is, then what does it have in common and what is different?
You have a different definition of “properties” than Aquinas. You have a different definition of “univocal” than Aquinas, and subsequently, because you break everything down to univocallity, you have a different definition of “analogical” and “equivocal” as well. How can you say that Aquinas is wrong when you misinterpret what he says?
Because what he says makes no sense. Believe me, I am very charitable towards Aquinas, and have defended him on a number of occasions. However, when it comes to this, I think that he takes ordinary linguistic terms, drains them of their meaning and replaces them with fancy scholastic jargin, and then pretends that he has discovered a deeper truth about how to talk about God.
Honestly, take any analogy you want that does not involve God, and show me that it is impossible to find an identical univocal meaning (i.e. identical sense and reference) at some level of analysis to drive the analogy to begin with. Go for it. My contention is that this is always possible, and not only that, that it is necessary for any common ground to be found between two compared terms. Without it, you are trapped in an infinite regress of meaning.
So far, the only “arguments” offered against this position are that (1) all analysis of meaning is just in the mind, and thus not real, (2) that one just can’t find a deeper univocal meaning, but you’ll have to trust me on that, or (3) you are using “property” incorrectly!
what's getting you is that you keep hearing a voice in your head that says Aquinas said that analogical language about God doesn't share any properties with creatures, therefore he must be wrong (and right you are if he said what you think he does)!
Is it possible to share properties (loosely defined) without univocal meaning at some level of analysis? What exactly is being shared? Some fuzzy, vague, indeterminate “something”? Well, that helps!
Michael:
ReplyDeleteIf you desire to disagree with Aquinas you must first show how your definitions of “property” (or even attribute and the other terms you make it synonymous with) are correct and his are wrong. But this is only possible if you realize that his definitions are different than yours. And once you do that, you'll see that even though Aquinas was wrong, he is not guilty of a faulty argument but guilty of speaking another language.
He can define his terms however he wants. What he cannot define away is the fact that when you say that two terms are similar, then there must be something the same between them at some level of analysis. Otherwise, he is stuck arguing that something is the both the same and different in the same sense, which is a logical contradiction. What you can say is that some things are the same (i.e. identical sense and reference), and some things are different (i.e. different sense and/or reference), but what on earth does it mean to say that all things are the same, but still different?!
Complaining about my use of “property” will not help in this situation, other than for pedantic reasons. The bottom line is that unless you are willing to radically revise the meaning of the concepts of “same”, “different”, “similar” and so on, the ideas of Aquinas on this score are either incoherent (i.e. something can be the same and different in exactly the same sense) or special pleading (i.e. something is the same in some respects and different in others, but I have no idea how it is the same, and you’ll just have to trust me that it is, because if it isn’t, then no talk about God is possible).
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I suppose that moral goodness is also related to urination, because in reality one cannot be a moral agent without a functioning urinary system, right?
What's the analogy here?
Regardless, none of this explains how God and created beings can share common properties (loosely defined) to justify an analogous relationship to begin with. You agree that they must have something in common, but you also admit that you have no idea what this “something” is supposed to be.
See my previous post. God and Man share a commonality, the act of existing. The act of existing in each is understood in proper proportionality to each's essence. Sameness, difference. Reference, sense.
What I want you to demonstrate is that at no point in the comparison between analogous terms is there an common property with an identical sense and reference.
You are demanding univocality, according to these definitions:
Univocal terms have the same thing signified (referent) and the same way of signifying it in the relevant uses (sense). The house is green, the grass is green. Green understood univocally.
Equivocal terms signify different things. (Different referents in different senses): John is boiling; the water is boiling. Boiling is equivocal.
Analogical terms signify the same thing (here is your common property, the referent), but in different senses in each analogate: My arguments are like a heavyweight champion; strong. The definition of strong common to both is the referent, and the differences are found in the senses applied to each.
Judgments are formed in the mind, but are applied to the world from which they get their meaning. These analogies are formed in the mind, but they are about things in the world, and my point was just that even though we can separate subject and predicate in our mind, that doesn't mean they are separate in reality. That's why I've been careful to use "concrete term" as the center of analogy, because I am explicitly calling attention to the fact that these judgments are about things as they really exist, not just mental beings. Otherwise we would just be playing formal logic games here.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI posted before you wrote all that, so forgive any points you addressed in the interim.
dguller
ReplyDelete"But wait! You are ignoring the differences, and thus it is only partially univocal, according to Josh."
"So, “mode of being” is “sense” and “degree of being” is “reference”?"
And there is the problem. That's incorrect. I thought you picked up on Josh's clarification the first time, but you just asked the question of Michael too. "Sense" is "mode of being" *and* "degree of being".
Your compound definition of attribute (earlier sub-senses S1, S2, S3...) makes the referent S1, mode S2, degree S3.
So, yes, S1 *would* be shared between the analogates but this is not what Aquinas would call univocal meaning (unless your S2 and S3 were also shared).
Josh:
ReplyDeleteMy arguments are like a heavyweight champion; strong. The definition of strong common to both is the referent, and the differences are found in the senses applied to each.
There is a superficial sense to “strong” to both arguments and a heavyweight champion. For arguments, that superficial sense would be “persuasive”, and for a heavyweight champion would be “able to lift heavy weights”. My point is that there is a deeper sense that they both share that refers to the referent, and that deeper sense would be something like, “exertion of force upon beings to change them”. In arguments, the force is rational and the change is of ideas, and in a heavyweight champion, the force is physical and the change is physical position. What they both share is the exertion of a force and resulting change, and that is the common sense, and the common referent.
dguller
ReplyDelete"This is not about metaphysical demonstrations."
Perhaps not, but the metaphysics are key.
The question was never about whether God can be known univocally by *your* understanding of univocal, but by *Aquinas's* understanding.
Firstly remember that Aquinas, as an Aristotelian, was no Platonist. Therefore there is no realm of stock-keeping units from which to take forms like "redness" (to keep with the car and apple of your example).
Moderate Realists maintain that some reality in your "red" car or "red" apple corresponds to the abstract idea of "redness"; yet "redness" does not exist as an abstract or universal being without individualizing notes (accidents), but it exists concretely in the car and the apple. Hence Josh's insistence on exemplifying with *concrete* terms.
It is this formal "redness" that works as the "common attribute" (per your understanding of "common" and "attribute") when you say: "X is like Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical; (2) X and Y share at least one common attribute". But what is its ontological and psychological status?
Actualizing a thing (such as the car or the apple) gives rise to its accidents (such as the car's "redness" or the apple's "redness"). Matter is added, the effect in the cause, etc. There is no way for something caused to be free of accidents. This is also true when something *potentially* a knower (mind, eye, whatever) becomes *actually* a knower when its cognitive power is actualized by the form of the knowable. Say, the abstract idea of a universal.
Now is "redness" even "red"? In the absence of light red things will be seen as black, for example, a thing with the form of "redness" would only *potentially* be "red" (as an aside would the form of "redness" presuppose light and sight?); but can "redness" itself coherently be said to have a colour?
But you have experienced "redness" albeit accidentally in visible "red" objects. And if you could know "redness" somehow without the phantasm of imagination I dare say it would "remind" you of your "red" car and it would be "like" your "red" apple. This is the analogical sense. Or maybe "redness" has nothing to do with "red"?
As First Cause, nothing caused God; He isn't in potential to anything; He has no accidents; He is not an abstract idea caused in the mind by forms and stripped of material accidents. You can't just dismiss all this when Aquinas claims that God can't be known univocally *by his definition* because it's important to his definition that more than the referent is the same for univocal understanding. And this can never be the case relating creatures to God, by the metaphysics.
Michael
ReplyDelete"But I wonder about, say for instance, two humans and the property of laughter? It seems to me that laughter could undergo univocal predication in this case."
Yes, good point and I'd agree. Indeed, having gone back to Summa since then, I now think God can have no "properties" (as per Coppens's definition, or "proper accidents" as written in my translation of Summa). This is because such "properties" are caused by constituent principles in the subject (eg, the rational soul causes the power of laughing in man), but as First Cause nothing can be caused in God.
This too prevents univocal predication though.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteAnd there is the problem. That's incorrect. I thought you picked up on Josh's clarification the first time, but you just asked the question of Michael too. "Sense" is "mode of being" *and* "degree of being".
That’s fine. But let me ask you this: If there are two senses (say, S1 and S2) with different modes of being and degrees of being, but that both refer to the same referent, then is it possible for S1 and S2 to both share a common (and deeper) sense (say, S) that has the same mode of being and degree of being and refers to the same referent?
Now is "redness" even "red"? In the absence of light red things will be seen as black, for example, a thing with the form of "redness" would only *potentially* be "red" (as an aside would the form of "redness" presuppose light and sight?); but can "redness" itself coherently be said to have a colour?
Why not? It is a particular frequency of electromagnetic radiation, and it is experienced by conscious beings, such as ourselves, in a particular phenomenological way when those photons are processed by our brains. You are correct to say that without any incoming photons upon a red surface, the surface would appear black to us, but the surface is composed of particular atoms with particular electron orbitals that end up releasing photons of a red frequency when struck by photons, or another energy source. For something to be “red”, it would have to take into account all these different aspects of reality.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteAs First Cause, nothing caused God; He isn't in potential to anything; He has no accidents; He is not an abstract idea caused in the mind by forms and stripped of material accidents. You can't just dismiss all this when Aquinas claims that God can't be known univocally *by his definition* because it's important to his definition that more than the referent is the same for univocal understanding. And this can never be the case relating creatures to God, by the metaphysics.
And that is why this issue is so important, because if analogy required univocality, then God could not be known by Thomist principles. I have argued repeatedly that for two things to be similar, then there must be something that they share in common despite the inevitable differences. The question is this common “something”. I think that if this common “something” did not have some core meaning that remained identical when comparing one thing to another, then we are stuck in an infinite regress. Why? Because if two things share something in common, then is that “something” identical between the two things or just similar? (I’ll leave out the option that the “something” is different, because then it would not be shared in common.) If the former, then it is univocal, because both its sense and reference are the same. If the latter, then one is stuck having to explain what is the same and what is different in the similarity relationship, and then you are stuck with finding something identical (i.e. “the same”) in the “something” that is shared, and thus the infinite regress.
There are a few ways out of this, as far as I can tell. One is to say that something can be the same but not identical, which is just nonsense. Another is to say that an infinite regress is no big deal, which would have problems for a theist metaphysics. Yet another is to reply that an attribute (broadly defined) can have different senses, but the same referent, and that there is no way for those different senses to be analyzed down to a common sense after abstracting the differences away, and which would actually be the source for the reference in question. This has not been demonstrated, but only asserted, repeatedly.
I really can’t think of any other way out of this dilemma. The common move here is to say that there is a way for something to be shared, but still be radically different, and that there is something in common, but actually has nothing in common, is just word games that end up meaning nothing.
Again, I would love for you to provide me with a non-divine analogy with a common attribute (broadly defined) that cannot be reduced to an identical sense and reference, and thus be univocal. Do any come to mind?
And here is another interesting thing about analogies. Ultimately, they are all rooted in our experience of the physical world. We can discuss non-physical concepts by making an analogy between the physical and the non-physical. For example, intellectual vision is parasitic upon physical vision, which is primary in terms of meaning. However, the idea is that there is a common property (broadly defined) between intellectual vision and physical vision that makes us able to discuss intellectual vision at all. Without that common property, we couldn’t talk about intellectual vision, period.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be similar to the existence of forms in particular beings and in the mind. Unless there was a similarity between the two, then there would be no knowledge of the world at all. The form of an apple is the same in a particular apple and in our concept of apple. The only difference is that the former has a material cause and the latter has no material cause. But the form is the same. Similarly, unless there is something identical between the two analogates, then they ultimately do not make contact with one another, except in a vague, fuzzy, indeterminate and hazy grey zone where we really do not know what is going on.
So, really, for the same reason that the form must be the same in a particular being and the intellect, the common property (broadly defined) that is shared between two compared things must be the same.
dguller
ReplyDeleteYou offer two horns upon which to gore Aquinas, but could we try considering that the regress is not infinite but terminates in God?
This is a snap response and what follows could lead me seriously astray, but doesn't it make sense that all referents ultimately refer to God as the ground of all Being? In fact isn't this what is meant when people say God is the First Cause and Final End of the universe?
I tried to explain in my previous post that we cannot know an abstract form, like, "goodness" except in particular actualities of "goodness", or abstracted from such as a universal idea (existing in the mind). This points to God's Goodness but isn't God. To the extent we do understand it, however, we can use it as a referent, and in situations where the sense is the same we have a univocal meaning. Where the referents are not the same, but have the same name, equivocal; and where the referents agree but the senses differ we have analogy.
But what we understand of the referent is incomplete and therefore cannot be said to be identical with what it refers to perfectly in God.
dguller
ReplyDelete"Do any come to mind?"
Not a single one that it does not seem like you've already 'defeated'.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteMy point is that there is a deeper sense that they both share that refers to the referent, and that deeper sense would be something like, “exertion of force upon beings to change them”.
Ah, but you see, that is the referent, made up of the proximate genus and specific difference that is common to both "arguments" and "heavyweight champion." And it doesn't have a sense as you put it there, because it is an abstraction from the compound concrete term, made up of the two different senses in each analogate and the referent.
And just to respond to Josh’s point about sense and reference.
ReplyDeleteSay that two terms X and Y are being compared in an analogy. The common property (broadly defined) is P, and this is the basis of the comparison to be possible at all. P has a sense and a reference. However, the sense of P in X (say, SP(X)) is different from the sense of P in Y (say, SP(Y)), even though both SP(X) and SP(Y) both refer to a common referent R. This could be because they differ in terms of mode or degree of being, to use Thomist terms.
The question is regarding the relationship between SP(X) and SP(Y). Are they the same, similar, or different?
If they are the same, then P is univocal, by everyone’s definitions. In that case, there really is no SP(X) and SP(Y), there is only sense S of property P (or, SP) and referent R.
If they are different, then they have nothing in common, and thus there is no analogy at all.
If they are similar, then there must be some thing(s) about SP(X) that is the same as SP(Y), but also some thing(s) about SP(X) that are different from SP(Y). That is what similar means, i.e. the presence of identical and different properties (broadly defined) when two things are compared. In other words, there must be something that SP(X) and SP(Y) have in common for the similarity relationship to be possible to begin with. Let’s call the common property (broadly defined) between SP(X) and SP(Y) as P*.
Now, the next question is whether P* is the same between SP*(X) and SP*(Y), or just similar. (I’ll leave aside the option of their being different, because then there is no analogy at all.)
If they are the same (or identical), then really there is no SP*(X) and SP*(Y), but only SP*, and thus P* is univocal, because P* has the same sense and reference when used in X and Y.
If they are similar, then there must be some things that are the same between SP*(X) and SP*(Y), and some things that are different. This is what similarity means. Let’s call the common property (broadly defined) between SP*(X) and SP*(Y) as P**.
The problem is that we are right back where we started with P*. Either we end in univocal meaning (or identical sense and reference), or we proceed with similarity, and continue this road to P***, P****, P*****, and into an infinite regress.
That is the problem. And all this talk about sense, reference, modes, degrees, and so on, simply can be swallowed up by the argument that I’ve demonstrated above.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAh, but you see, that is the referent, made up of the proximate genus and specific difference that is common to both "arguments" and "heavyweight champion."
Ah, but you see that referent also has a sense! I even explain what that sense was.
And it doesn't have a sense as you put it there, because it is an abstraction from the compound concrete term, made up of the two different senses in each analogate and the referent.
So, abstractions do not have sense? Does logic and mathematics have no sense? What exactly would you call their semantic content, if not sense and reference? And if their sense just is their reference, then you cannot say that it has no sense, but only that its sense is purely denotative without any distorting connotations. You cannot, however, say that it has no sense.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteYou offer two horns upon which to gore Aquinas, but could we try considering that the regress is not infinite but terminates in God?
That would beg the question about whether “God” has any semantic content at all, according to Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy. I have argued that he is correct that God cannot be understood univocally at all, and I am aware that there are Thomist arguments for why that is so, then he cannot be understood at all, because all analogy must terminate either in univocal meaning or continue in infinite regress.
So, you either (1) give up the idea that God cannot be understood univocally, and Aquinas is wrong, (2) give up the doctrine of analogy, and Aquinas is wrong, or (3) accept an infinite regress, which would undermine natural theology, and Aquinas is wrong.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteSorry, the previous post should read as follows:
That would beg the question about whether “God” has any semantic content at all, according to Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy. I have argued that if he is correct that God cannot be understood univocally at all, and I am aware that there are Thomist arguments for why that is so, then he cannot be understood at all, because all analogy must terminate either in univocal meaning or continue in infinite regress.
So, you either (1) give up the idea that God cannot be understood univocally, and Aquinas is wrong, (2) give up the doctrine of analogy, and Aquinas is wrong, or (3) accept an infinite regress, which would undermine natural theology, and Aquinas is wrong.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThere is no "sense" or mode of signifying in "the act of exertion of force to change a being(we can really just boil this down to "power")" considered by itself as the referent. What is it? Or if you consider this the sense, what is the reference?
To reiterate:
My arguments are like a heavyweight champion; strong. The definition of strong common to both is the referent, and the differences are found in the senses applied to each.
You say what is common: "exertion of force to change being." I call that the referent, the thing being signified, the common property, etc. What "mode," what "sense," what way of being is it necessarily conjoined to?
The answer is, all senses in general and none in particular. That common referent can apply to the strength of my argument, to the strength of a boxer, to the strength of the strong force, to the strength of a building, to the strength of a poetic image, to the strength of God (BUM BUM BUMMMMMM)...etc.
Your problem boils down to this: in an analogy when you divide the opposing senses of a given referent, you think there's still a sense left to the referent, which leads you to think there's some sort of infinite regress involved. But there isn't. Nor is there univocality invovled, because there's no identical sense and reference in the middle term of the analogy. So these dilemmas you keep presenting are all false.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThere is no "sense" or mode of signifying in "the act of exertion of force to change a being(we can really just boil this down to "power")" considered by itself as the referent. What is it? Or if you consider this the sense, what is the reference?
I’m sorry. Are you saying that the phrase, “the act of exertion of force to change something” is nonsensical? Do you stare blankly at that sentence as you would, “dog purple stomp”? You know what the sense is, and you know what the reference is. It refers to the action of forcing something to change. Why is this so confusing for you? Do you deny that we reach the reference through the sense, or is the sense just free-floating and independent of the reference?
You say what is common: "exertion of force to change being." I call that the referent, the thing being signified, the common property, etc. What "mode," what "sense," what way of being is it necessarily conjoined to?
I don’t know what you are talking about here. Could you provide some examples to clarify your thinking? Honestly, the “sense” is just our mental conceptualization and imagining, and the “reference” is what our mental conceptualization and imagining is about. It is clear that we can conceive of the exertion of a force to change something, and the reference of that conception is the exertion of a force to change something.
The answer is, all senses in general and none in particular. That common referent can apply to the strength of my argument, to the strength of a boxer, to the strength of the strong force, to the strength of a building, to the strength of a poetic image, to the strength of God (BUM BUM BUMMMMMM)...etc.
That’s right, but in the context of the comparison, it is between an argument and a heavyweight champion. “The strength of a building”? “The strength of a poetic image”? What does that have to do with anything. Sure, you could say that an argument is like a poetic image in that they are both strong, i.e. have force to change something. So what? Are you complaining that the common property (broadly defined) could possibly be used in other analogies? Horror of horrors! You mean that I can say that my wife’s smile is like a rose, but also that a poem is like a rose!? Oh my God!
Your problem boils down to this: in an analogy when you divide the opposing senses of a given referent, you think there's still a sense left to the referent, which leads you to think there's some sort of infinite regress involved. But there isn't. Nor is there univocality invovled, because there's no identical sense and reference in the middle term of the analogy. So these dilemmas you keep presenting are all false.
You have not come even close to demonstrating that “there’s no identical sense and reference in the middle term of the analogy”. You keep asserting it, again and again, and I have shown you, again and again, how it is possible to find such a thing. At some point, you’ll really have to accept that what you say is impossible, is certainly possible, and then you can face the rest of my argument.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAlso:
in an analogy when you divide the opposing senses of a given referent, you think there's still a sense left to the referent, which leads you to think there's some sort of infinite regress involved. But there isn't.
Are you arguing that there is no common sense at some level of analysis between the different senses of the compared terms that could be about the common reference? If that is true, then how can two utterly different senses be about the same reference?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd just a point of clarification: Do you agree that the senses in the two compared terms must be either identical, similar, or different?
Before there is any more confusion, I'd like to clarify "sense", "referent", "mode of being", "degree of being" and "thing signified".
ReplyDeleteA comment by Jack made me think that perhaps my use of "degree of being" is wrong--I was using it as what thing the referent is referring to. Basically, "degree of being" is part of the "mode of being".
So, how about this.
1. a referent is the term at the center of univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication--it's what we focus on.
2. sense is what way the referent is being used in predication.
3. a referent corresponds to a thing (something that falls under Aristotle's categories, right?). This thing is also known as the "thing signified" by the referent.
4. sense corresponds to the way the thing (pointed to by the referent) exists. AKA "mode of being", with "degree of being" as a subset of mode of being. (although with language about God "degree of being" would be identical with "mode of being", I think).
5. sense, as used as one of the principles of predication, should not be confused with meaning, ie "that makes no sense!"
dguller:
"I am saying that in any example of univocal meaning there must be an identical meaning being carried from one sentence to another. I agree with Josh that that should involve an identical sense and reference."
Fine. Then here we are good!
"(3) you are using “property” incorrectly!"
Well you are, and it is leading you to ignore the sense and reference of predication and therefore ignore the important underlying metaphysics, that further abstractions do not have a sense. Take Josh's example about power (which by the way your fancy pants terminology is the same as power). Power is the referent and has a sense. So in your terminology power is already the same in both cases (it is the thing that is identical in both predications). But in order for you to play the infinite regress game, you need to take the referent power and use it in another analogy. But where does that get you? Nothing even close to an infinite regress.
You are overlooking the metaphysical distinctions which limit the linguistic distinctions.
So far so good? And I am asking for Jack, Josh, and dguller's comments.
ciao,
Michael
Michael:
ReplyDeleteSo in your terminology power is already the same in both cases (it is the thing that is identical in both predications). But in order for you to play the infinite regress game, you need to take the referent power and use it in another analogy. But where does that get you? Nothing even close to an infinite regress.
But why doesn’t it get me into an infinite regress? Because it is univocal! That is perfectly consistent with what I have been saying all along! As I said, according to my analysis of “analogy”, you either terminate in a univocal sense and referent, or you end up in an infinite regress. It seems that you agree with this conclusion, and if you do, then you are stuck, if you want to talk about God in a Thomist way, either to say that one can talk about God univocally, contra Aquinas, or that infinite regress is okay, which would destroy Thomist theology.
Michael
ReplyDeleteI follow you so far.
Michael:
ReplyDeletea referent corresponds to a thing (something that falls under Aristotle's categories, right?). This thing is also known as the "thing signified" by the referent.
That’s fine.
sense corresponds to the way the thing (pointed to by the referent) exists. AKA "mode of being", with "degree of being" as a subset of mode of being.
There seems to be an ambiguity here that needs to be clarified. When you talk about “the way the thing exists”, does “the way” not exist as part of the referent (i.e. the thing)? If it does not, then where does it exist? In the mind? Does that mean that “mode” and “degree” are just mental projections upon the referent, or do those properties (broadly defined) actually exist in the thing itself (i.e. the referent)?
sense, as used as one of the principles of predication, should not be confused with meaning, ie "that makes no sense!"
Does sense have a semantic content?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteClearly I haven't been using "sense" to mean "logical coherence" throughout this conversation. Given Michael's clarifications, what particular sense does "exerting a force..." have in that analogy as the referent?
Sense is "a way a being is proportionate to its essence" or somesuch.
There seems to be an ambiguity here that needs to be clarified. When you talk about “the way the thing exists”, does “the way” not exist as part of the referent (i.e. the thing)? If it does not, then where does it exist? In the mind? Does that mean that “mode” and “degree” are just mental projections upon the referent, or do those properties (broadly defined) actually exist in the thing itself (i.e. the referent)?
In reality, the subject and its predicates are unified into a whole being. In our minds, however, we can distinguish the way a being is and how a being is defined according to that mode. So, unified in reality, really in the thing, and distinguishable as a concept in our mind as part of a judgment. So yes, there is semantic content in the word "sense."
Josh:
ReplyDeleteGiven Michael's clarifications, what particular sense does "exerting a force..." have in that analogy as the referent?
I think that the sense is perfectly clear, especially given the fact that you understand what the statement means. If you think it is unclear, then why is it unclear? Are there diverse meanings of the terms that confuse you? All it takes is to understand that one thing causes another thing to change, and the easier it is for one thing to cause another thing to change, the more power and strength it has.
Sense is "a way a being is proportionate to its essence" or somesuch.
So, how exactly does that apply to the morning star and the evening star being two different senses of the common referent, Venus? What is the essence of Venus? What are the proportions of its essence? What are the different ways that Venus alters the proportions of its essence?
In reality, the subject and its predicates are unified into a whole being. In our minds, however, we can distinguish the way a being is and how a being is defined according to that mode. So, unified in reality, really in the thing, and distinguishable as a concept in our mind as part of a judgment. So yes, there is semantic content in the word "sense."
First, what is the difference between the mode of being (= “the way a being is”) and “how a being is defined according to that mode”? In other words, you seem to be distinguishing the way a being is and how a being is defined. What exactly is the difference?
Second, if distinctions can be made by the mind by abstracting properties (broadly defined) from substances, then what exactly was the point of your criticism that the commonality in analogates must be due to concrete terms that must stand as they exist in reality, and cannot involve the mental abstractions from those concrete substances? Why can’t an analogy be based upon conceptual abstractions from concrete substances? And furthermore, how can they possibly not be done in this way? After all, you are highlighting a particular common property (broadly defined) and abstracting it from two substances in order to make the comparison. According to your condition, analogy becomes impossible!
Then what was the point about your initial complaint that abstraction and separation of senses was
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd just in case you missed my questions, I’ll repost them here:
Are you arguing that there is no common sense at some level of analysis between the different senses of the compared terms that could be about the common reference? If that is true, then how can two utterly different senses be about the same reference?
Do you agree that the senses in the two compared terms must be either identical, similar, or different?
Thanks!
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteAre you arguing that there is no common sense at some level of analysis between the different senses of the compared terms that could be about the common reference? If that is true, then how can two utterly different senses be about the same reference?
Do you agree that the senses in the two compared terms must be either identical, similar, or different?
Identical=univocal
Different=Analogical or Equivocal
So, how exactly does that apply to the morning star and the evening star being two different senses of the common referent, Venus? What is the essence of Venus? What are the proportions of its essence? What are the different ways that Venus alters the proportions of its essence?
You said it yourself; this is not an analogy. It's the univocal predication of the thing signified: Venus. Both senses are the same.
Gentlemen,
ReplyDeleteAs a clarification, I want to stress that certain terms (the transcendentals) and here where we've been predicating Goodness and Power of different things, there is no determinate sense attached to the referent, that is; it's all senses in general and none in particular.
However, with a term that is inextricably bound to matter, this is not the case (obviously). This is because the term is predicated according to a more definite, determinate sense: the way of finite, material being. So if we are using a common term like "sadness," then that would have a limit to the senses one can use in the meaning, meaning that would stay a part of the middle term in the analogy.
It's probably best to just reprint what Norris Clarke says about them:
The ranges of analogous concepts can be roughly classified as follows: (1) those having a ceiling but no floor (no lower limit) in their applica-tion: terms like physico-chemical activity, whose up-per limit is biological activity, or perhaps conscious-ness, but that extend downward to unknown depths of matter still hidden from us and perhaps very strange indeed compared with what we know; (2) those having both floor and a ceiling, say, biological activity, or sense knowledge, limited by the non-living or unconscious below and intellectual know-ledge above; (3) those having a floor but no ceiling: intellectual knowing, love, life, joy, etc.; (4) those having neither ceiling nor floor: the all-pervasive “transcendental properties” applicable across all levels of being, such as being, activity, unity, power, intelligibility, goodness (in the widest sense). Our special concern will be with numbers (3) and (4), as alone applicable to God.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteAnd that above should answer your questions about senses attached to the middle term in an analogy, and why I said there is "no sense" in relation to a transcendental middle term.
Unless you persist in conflating my "sense" with "logical coherence," in which case, I don't really think I can do anything for you. You seem to do this again here:
I think that the sense is perfectly clear, especially given the fact that you understand what the statement means. If you think it is unclear, then why is it unclear? Are there diverse meanings of the terms that confuse you?
I understand the definition and the terms within the definition perfectly well, I understand the logical unity. The definition is unapplied; it is perfectly general; for a referent to have a sense, it must have at least a particular range attached to it, or a limit. That presented definition of Power does not.
Also gentlemen,
ReplyDeleteIn your spare moments, read Plato's Meno. It serves as a great "playing out" of this problem that we are having. You can see Socrates and his mates vainly attempting to find one "sense" for Virtue, or Goodness. Viewed from Thomistic philosophy, one might say they were trying to define God's essence...
Josh:
ReplyDeleteIdentical=univocal
Different=Analogical or Equivocal
What is the difference between analogical and equivocal?
As a clarification, I want to stress that certain terms (the transcendentals) and here where we've been predicating Goodness and Power of different things, there is no determinate sense attached to the referent, that is; it's all senses in general and none in particular.
Why isn’t “power” as “the capacity to cause change” determinate? Why isn’t “goodness” as “the degree to which a being’s nature is actualized” determinate? What exactly is indeterminate about these definitions? It seems perfectly clear what sense these statements have, and how they can apply to different things.
What don’t you understand exactly about them? I understand “determinate” to mean the identification of a single sense and reference to a statement. Certainly, you can understand what the capacity to cause change means and thus what it refers to. And if you cannot, then what exactly don’t you understand?
This is because the term is predicated according to a more definite, determinate sense: the way of finite, material being.
I see. So, mathematical terms have no determinate sense, because they do not refer to finite material beings. Take the number one. According to you, “one” only has determinate meaning if it is referring to a single material entity. So, when I say “one dog”, then “one” has a determinate sense, but when I am talking about “one” without material entities, then it is indeterminate. Nice to know that the precision of logic and mathematics has to be sacrificed to be able to talk about God!
And that above should answer your questions about senses attached to the middle term in an analogy, and why I said there is "no sense" in relation to a transcendental middle term.
Sorry, presenting an analogy is not equivalent to demonstrating a truth. Were you persuaded by Plato’s allegory of the cave? You quoted a classification scheme that is analogous to a physical building with a ceiling and a floor. That’s all. You did not argue for it, or demonstrate why that scheme was valid. So, no, you did not answer my questions except by – once again – just asserting that when comparing two terms according to a common property (broadly defined), there cannot be a common sense at some level of analysis between the two terms.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteUnless you persist in conflating my "sense" with "logical coherence," in which case, I don't really think I can do anything for you
That is not what I have done at all. “Sense” has to do with the meaning of sentences, which is related to the logic of sentences. I mean, an incoherent statement cannot have meaning or sense. But that’s trivial, and I’m not too sure why you are complaining about this. I am focusing upon the meaning of statements, as what I mean by “sense”. Then there is what the statements are actually referring to.
I understand the definition and the terms within the definition perfectly well, I understand the logical unity. The definition is unapplied; it is perfectly general; for a referent to have a sense, it must have at least a particular range attached to it, or a limit. That presented definition of Power does not.
So, the only way for a statement to have sense is if it is applied to a particular material thing? Is that really what Aquinas is arguing? Does that mean that abstracted forms have no determinate sense? Does that mean that logic and mathematics has no determinate sense? And it does have a “particular range attached to it” in that it refers to those things that can cause change, especially those that can do so easier than others.
In your spare moments, read Plato's Meno. It serves as a great "playing out" of this problem that we are having. You can see Socrates and his mates vainly attempting to find one "sense" for Virtue, or Goodness. Viewed from Thomistic philosophy, one might say they were trying to define God's essence...
Perhaps you should better read Plato’s Republic where he actually does define goodness as the proper use of one’s multiple faculties in harmony and equilibrium, which is actually quite close to what Aquinas said goodness was, i.e. the actualization of one’s nature.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteOne more thing. I asked you if the senses in the two compared terms must be related by identity, similarity or difference. You replied that identity would refer to univocality, and that difference would refer to either analogy or equivocality. So, similarity is not involved anywhere when two senses of a common property are being compared? It seems to make much more sense to use the following classification:
Identity = Univocal
Similarity = Analogy = combination of identity and difference
Difference = Equivocal
Would you agree?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteSo, similarity is not involved anywhere when two senses of a common property are being compared? It seems to make much more sense to use the following classification:
I'm not sure if I would call univocality "identity." I'm aware that I did but I'm not sure I could do that. Consider this univocal predication of "green":
The grass is green. The house is green.
"Green" is used univocally but I'm loathe to be tied to the notion that these two objects might be considered identical. But green=green in both, and both are accidents (same sense), so maybe I'd agree to that with qualification. Otherwise I'm fine with the way you put it, insofar as it lines up with the definitions I've been giving.
What is the difference between analogical and equivocal?
Analogy has a common referent, equivocations have two different referents.
So, when I say “one dog”, then “one” has a determinate sense, but when I am talking about “one” without material entities, then it is indeterminate.
Yes; "one dog" is where "one" is a quantity of a substance, one of Aristotle's predicables. When we say God is One, we understand that analogously, with an indeterminate sense. One (the abstract number) is understood rigorously, I don't see a problem there. There's a difference between 1 and Oneness.
So, no, you did not answer my questions except by – once again – just asserting that when comparing two terms according to a common property (broadly defined), there cannot be a common sense at some level of analysis between the two terms.
If you show me the particular sense (according to my definition, not yours) of the referent of power in the previous analogy, then you have won this point. But merely asking, "can't you see the definition makes sense?" misses the point entirely.
“Sense” has to do with the meaning of sentences, which is related to the logic of sentences.
I understand I've been using linguistic terms, mostly for the sake of consistency, but I've also made it abundantly clear what I mean when I say sense. Jack Bodie and Michael have had no problems comprehending.
And it does have a “particular range attached to it” in that it refers to those things that can cause change, especially those that can do so easier than others.
There is power in everything. An infinite range is not a range...it has no limits.
Look, I have no delusions of changing your mind. I think we are probably nearing the end of this, and if nothing else, I'm grateful that through this discussion I have about ten times the grasp of the subject that I did before.
dguller,
ReplyDelete"As I said, according to my analysis of “analogy”, you either terminate in a univocal sense and referent, or you end up in an infinite regress."
Why aren't you willing to learn the definitions that Aquinas is using?
Clearly you should have said "identical sense and referent" instead of "univocal sense and referent".
You like hopping categories (illegitimately). As you say, if you find an analogical term you keep going until you find the univocal core. But that makes no sense (logical coherence). When I predicate any referent of a subject, I am not also predicating any further levels. A referent does not have a further referent and sense. Nor does a sense have a further referent and sense. You are confusing linguistics with metaphysics, mostly because you are not using the terminology correctly.
Of course there is something in common (read: identical) at the heart of univocal and analogical predication. But it is a category mistake to say that the something-in-common has a further referent and sense, not unless you buy into some idealist picture of reality--and that just pushes the problem further.
It doesn't matter if I talk about univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication because you would make the same category mistake regardless.
"As I said, according to my analysis of “analogy”, you either terminate in a univocal sense and referent, or you end up in an infinite regress. It seems that you agree with this conclusion..."
I can't agree because it doesn't make sense to say that there is a further sense and referent other than the original. I of course agree that there must be "something"(defined on your terms) that is identical in the analogy. Call it an identical property if you wish as I will make a mental note that you do not mean the A/T kind of property.
"...and if you do, then you are stuck, if you want to talk about God in a Thomist way, either to say that one can talk about God univocally, contra Aquinas, or that infinite regress is okay, which would destroy Thomist theology."
Even if you and Aquinas were speaking the same language it would not follow that Thomist theology would be destroyed. As the blog here testifies and as Dr. Feser eminently defends, the existence of God is demonstrable (in the strict scholastic sense).
Josh answered the other questions you had about the purported ambiguity of sense and referent and I do not have more to add.
I thank all involved in this discussion as it has really been a huge help for me in clarifying even more Aquinas' position on analogical predication; I am sure that it is something that I will carry with me the rest of my life.
Grazie Mille!
Dguller, Michael, Jack,
ReplyDeleteI'll take one last stab at trying to sum up and maybe put aside the linguistic terms for a moment, though I know Dguller probably won't agree:
Most of these analogies that we've been discussing are analogies of proper proportionality:
"Subject A in relation to its operation is similar to Subject B in relation to its operation."
That's the basic form. Stick in an activity term that is common to both, and you have Subject A in its own way-performing the act of "X," Subject B in its own way-performing the act of "X"
One final note:
"The analogous concept does not simply break down into two aspects, one exactly the same, the other totally different. Then it would break up into two concepts, one univocal, the other equivocal, and would no longer be an analogous concept. Rather, the similarity and difference pervade the whole being of the analogates at once. Each of the analogates in exercising its action is through and through both similar and different with respect to the others. Hence the analogous concept expressing this must be at once similar and different in all its predications. Note, too, that such similarity and difference in the analogous concept do not show up when the concept is considered in isolation by itself, but only when joined with a particular subject in a judgment or similar relation, thus: knowledge-in-God, knowledge-in-humans, knowledge-in- dogs."
--Norris Clarke, "The One and the Many"
Josh:
ReplyDelete"Green" is used univocally but I'm loathe to be tied to the notion that these two objects might be considered identical. But green=green in both, and both are accidents (same sense), so maybe I'd agree to that with qualification. Otherwise I'm fine with the way you put it, insofar as it lines up with the definitions I've been giving.
Great.
Yes; "one dog" is where "one" is a quantity of a substance, one of Aristotle's predicables. When we say God is One, we understand that analogously, with an indeterminate sense. One (the abstract number) is understood rigorously, I don't see a problem there. There's a difference between 1 and Oneness.
But the number one is not a material being. By your criteria, it should be indeterminate. If you are now going to revise your criteria of determinacy to include both material and immaterial beings, then you have lost your previous justification to exclude abstract properties (broadly defined) from determinacy, and thus my account of analogy is somewhat vindicated.
If you show me the particular sense (according to my definition, not yours) of the referent of power in the previous analogy, then you have won this point. But merely asking, "can't you see the definition makes sense?" misses the point entirely.
Your definition of “sense” was "a way a being is proportionate to its essence". I don’t understand this at all. It seems to imply that the only sentences that could carry sense would be about beings, which meant that any sentence about abstract properties (broadly defined) would not have sense. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Could you elaborate with examples?
There is power in everything. An infinite range is not a range...it has no limits.
So, if some property (broadly defined) is present in all substances, then it is indeterminate? That makes no sense. Every thing has an essence, but we can distinguish a thing’s power from its essence, right? All things have being, but we can distinguish between potential and actual being. I mean, it’s pretty clear that all these concepts have clear meanings, and thus cannot be indeterminate. I mean, even “infinite” is determinate. We know what we are referring to when we talk about infinity. It is not as if we might be talking about rabbits or shoes. We are talking about infinity.
Look, I have no delusions of changing your mind. I think we are probably nearing the end of this, and if nothing else, I'm grateful that through this discussion I have about ten times the grasp of the subject that I did before.
Trust me. My mind is open to be changed. I initially rejected intrinsic teleology, and now accept it. It is just that the arguments in support of it were too strong to reject. You are not offering any arguments, but only assertions about distinctions without ever justifying them, which is what I was asking for.
As far as me just making bald assertions, I don't think I've done that, but I can sift through Aquinas to find relevant arguments:
ReplyDeleteOn why we have to use concrete/compound terms:
Because we know and name God from creatures, the names we attribute to God signify what belongs to material creatures, of which the knowledge is natural to us. And because in creatures of this kind what is perfect and subsistent is compound; whereas their form is not a complete subsisting thing, but rather is that whereby a thing is; hence it follows that all names used by us to signify a complete subsisting thing must have a concrete meaning as applicable to compound things; whereas names given to signify simple forms, signify a thing not as subsisting, but as that whereby a thing is; as, for instance, whiteness signifies that whereby a thing is white. And as God is simple, and subsisting, we attribute to Him abstract names to signify His simplicity, and concrete names to signify His substance and perfection, although both these kinds of names fail to express His mode of being, forasmuch as our intellect does not know Him in this life as He is.
I'll post more as I find them...
Michael:
ReplyDeleteClearly you should have said "identical sense and referent" instead of "univocal sense and referent".
I don’t see the difference. Could you explain how a term can have the same sense and referent from one sentence to the next, but not be identical?
When I predicate any referent of a subject, I am not also predicating any further levels. A referent does not have a further referent and sense. Nor does a sense have a further referent and sense. You are confusing linguistics with metaphysics, mostly because you are not using the terminology correctly.
What is interesting here is that we are actually in agreement. The incoherent part is the infinite regress that occurs if one says that the common property (broadly defined) that is shared between two terms is not identical, but only similar. The account can only be coherent if one the common property has a univocal meaning from one analogate to another. Nothing else makes sense, because it is logically incoherent.
Recall my argument above at November 18, 2011 6:06 AM. SP(X) and SP(Y) both refer to a common referent R. I am not subdividing the referent at all. SP(X) is either identical to SP(Y), similar to SP(Y), or different from SP(Y). The only option that makes sense, which you seem to agree with, is that SP(X) is the same as SP(Y). A similarity relationship leads to absurdities (such as subdividing sense and reference) and infinite regresses. A difference relationship means that there is no analogy, because there is no common property (broadly defined).
Can you point out exactly where in my argument I go wrong? I seems pretty airtight to me! We all agree that when X and Y are compared it is on the basis of a common property (broadly defined) P. The sense of P for X is SP(X), and the sense of P for Y is SP(Y). SP(X) refers to R, and SP(Y) refers to R. In other words, SP(X) and SP(Y) both have the same referent. Again, I don’t think that we are in disagreement with any of this.
The next part of the argument requires that the relationship between SP(X) and SP(Y) can either be one of identity, similarity, or difference. If you accept these possible relations as exhaustive, then the rest of the argument follows deductively. Only an identity relation between SP(X) and SP(Y) avoids incoherence.
Again, I would really appreciate someone pointing out where in this inference I am going wrong.
Even if you and Aquinas were speaking the same language it would not follow that Thomist theology would be destroyed. As the blog here testifies and as Dr. Feser eminently defends, the existence of God is demonstrable (in the strict scholastic sense).
It is only demonstrable if one can talk about “God”. How do you demonstrate something that you cannot even talk about? Honestly, the best solution is to just admit that God can be talked about with univocal meaning. That’s the only way to avoid incoherence and absurdities. Apparently, other Christian theologians came to the same conclusion, such as Duns Scotus, and thus it is not some horrid atheist heresy. Honestly, it isn’t that big a deal that Aquinas was not infallible! Everyone gets something wrong. ;)
Josh:
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I am wrong, but it seems that Aquinas is saying that when we talk about concrete and compound beings, then we must use concrete and compound terms, and when we are talking about abstract things (i.e. “names given to signify simple forms), then we must use abstract terms. Who ever argued differently?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteAgain, I would really appreciate someone pointing out where in this inference I am going wrong.
Here:
"A difference relationship [between SP(x) and SP(Y)] means that there is no analogy, because there is no common property (broadly defined)."
Here is what this reads like to us:
Two things realizing a common property in different ways means there is no analogy.
You say this:
"Only an identity relation between SP(X) and SP(Y) [with a relation to referent X] avoids incoherence."
Here is what this reads like to us:
If the common property is realized in exactly the same way in both X and Y then we avoid incoherence.
But you are just gainsaying our definitions. (1) just denies our definition of analogy, and (2) is just the definition of univocality. There's no analogical predication in (2).
I removed that last comment...I don't want to go off on a rabbit trail at this point. Soon we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of this stuff, I think.
ReplyDeleteJosh:
ReplyDeleteTwo things realizing a common property in different ways means there is no analogy.
Exactly. It is a reductio ad absurdum to say that SP(X) and SP(Y) are different, if “different” means that they have nothing in common, and yet still part of an analogy, which is why they cannot be different.
If the common property is realized in exactly the same way in both X and Y then we avoid incoherence.
Exactly. Because the similarity relation leads to an infinite regress without an identity relation to terminate the regress. Or, if you agree with Michael that senses and referents cannot be analyzed into sub-components, then a similarity relationship cannot occur for that reason either, because similarity just means that some parts are the same and some parts are different, which necessarily implies sub-components.
And that only leads identity as a possible ground for analogy, which means univocality is necessary for analogy.
But you are just gainsaying our definitions. (1) just denies our definition of analogy, and (2) is just the definition of univocality. There's no analogical predication in (2).
I do not know what you mean by (1) and (2).
Josh:
ReplyDeleteRemember what I mean by my definitions:
(1) X is identical to Y iff X and Y share all properties (broadly defined) in common.
(2) X is similar to Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical, (2) X has some properties (broadly defined) in common with Y, (3) X has some properties (broadly defined) that are different from Y, and (4) the properties in (2) and (3) are not identical.
(3) X is different from Y iff X and Y do not share any properties (broadly defined).
Would Aquinas disagree with these definitions?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd my definitions are basically formalized versions of the terms “all”, “some”, and “none” with respect to shared properties (broadly defined).
Again, all I need for my argument is
(1) X is like Y iff (a) X is not identical to Y, (b) X has some properties (broadly defined) in common with Y, (c) X has some properties (broadly defined) not in common with Y, and (d) the properties (broadly defined) in common in (b) cannot be the same properties (broadly defined) that are different in (c).
If you agree with (1), then we can proceed to analyze (b), and what it means to have properties (broadly defined) in common.
There are three ways SP(X) and SP(Y) to be related, via “identical”, “similar”, or “different”, which ultimately comes down to “all properties in common”, “some properties in common”, and “no properties in common”.
If you can agree with my definitions of “identical”, “similar”, and “different”, then the rest of the argument follows, and deductively the relation between SP(X) and SP(Y) that is necessary for an analogy to be possible is “identical”.
Would Aquinas disagree with my definitions of “analogy”, “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference”? And if he does, then upon what basis?
Thanks.
"Soon we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of this stuff, I think."
ReplyDeleteNot too soon, I hope; in advance however I'd like to echo Michael in saying thanks to all involved. I've learnt a great deal from all your contributions and the reading I've had to do to contribute myself.
What may have started in linguistics has given me a much fuller appreciation of the metaphysics. Cheers.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd the other issue is whether the different types of analogy that Aquinas describes can be seen as specific instances of my definition of “analogy”. In other words, if my definition is the general principle while the analogy of proportionality, for example, can be seen as a specific instantiation of my principle, then if my argument is correct about the general principle, then it necessarily applies to the particular instantiations, as well.
Can you show that the analogy of proportionality fails to meet my criteria for “analogy”?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteSorry, late comment.
Just to add to my previous post. All the different types of analogies that Aquinas mentions, the indirect analogy, the analogy of proportion, and the analogy of proportionality, are all analogies, right? So, they must have something in common to justify their inclusion in the category of “analogy”.
I propose that my definition is this general category of “analogy”, of which those three are just particular subdivisions, according to different kinds of similarity. And if this is correct, then my argument based upon my definition of “analogy” necessarily apply to Aquinas’ examples of analogy, and thus compromise them, as well.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI don't really know what to do. I've put the definitions that I believe Aquinas is following, and you don't agree with them. That's fine, but we can never get anywhere. Whether analogies of proportionality can fit into your broader schema is not something I'm arguing. If your basic form of analogy doesn't correspond to his, then it doesn't.
Dropping the sense and reference because I think it's just muddling things now:
"Subject A in relation to its operation is similar to Subject B in relation to its operation."
That's the basic form. Stick in an activity term that is common to both, and you have Subject A in its own way-performing the act of "X," Subject B in its own way-performing the act of "X"
Subject A and Subject B perform the same act in different ways. This is our definition of analogy. What is wrong with it?
As far as similar and different as related to analogy, he would say that two things are similar according to a common thing, but different precisely in the way they manifest that common thing. All other differences don't matter for the analogy. If that fits with your definitions then you and he agree.
ReplyDeleteCan I just work on examples?
ReplyDeleteThe grass and the house are green.
Why is "green" a univocal term here? Because they both are green, and green is an accident in each.
The man and the triangle are both good.
Why is "good" an analogical term here? Because they both are good, but in man, the property of goodness flows from his essence, which contains a moral aspect that isn't present in the property of goodness in the triangle.
Josh, I liked the Norris Clarke quote. Good stuff.
ReplyDeletedguller, quoting me said,
“Clearly you should have said "identical sense and referent" instead of "univocal sense and referent".
I don’t see the difference. Could you explain how a term can have the same sense and referent from one sentence to the next, but not be identical?”
First off, to be more precise, what you probably meant to say is if I could 'explain how a univocal predication can have the same sense and referent from one sentence to the next, but not be identical?' Note that you are talking here about meaning being identical. In univocal predication the meaning of the predicated term is identical in both predications. So here I do not disagree.
But going deeper, sense and reference are two interrelated components of predication that make up the meaning of the predicated term.
Look at it this way: identity is a extremely large circle. Univocal is one small subset of identity's extremely large circle. Univocal is a kind of identity but is not identity. Univocal has a very specific scope, that of sense and reference of one predication being identical to another predication's sense and reference. Something cannot be univocal and not involve identity while, on the other hand, something can be identical and not involve univocality.
“The incoherent part is the infinite regress that occurs if one says that the common property (broadly defined) that is shared between two terms is not identical, but only similar.”
No one here is saying that the 'common property (broadly defined) that is shared between two terms is not identical, but only similar'. Aquinas isn't saying that either. Who are you arguing against?
“The account can only be coherent if one the common property has a univocal meaning from one analogate to another.”
What you are really saying here is that 'two things that have something in common really do have something in common.' This is at a more fundamental level than what univocal, analogical, and equivocal actually deal with. You're not engaging with the concepts as they are defined.
“SP(X) is either identical to SP(Y), similar to SP(Y), or different from SP(Y). The only option that makes sense, which you seem to agree with, is that SP(X) is the same as SP(Y).”
My translation of the above: the meaning of the first predication is either identical with, similar to, or different from the meaning of the second predication. Note: to make it truly exhaustive you should say “completely different” rather than just “different”. Similarity already implies difference.
“A similarity relationship leads to absurdities (such as subdividing sense and reference) and infinite regresses.”
So when the meaning of the first predication is similar to the meaning of the second predication, an infinite regress occurs? This is not true at all; it's a category mistake. Referents don't have further senses and referents, neither do senses have further senses and referents.
(continued)
(continued)
ReplyDelete“We all agree that when X and Y are compared it is on the basis of a common property (broadly defined) P.”
Sure.
“The sense of P for X is SP(X), and the sense of P for Y is SP(Y).”
No. Here you are saying that the sense is identical to the meaning of the predication. As I and others have been using the word “sense”, we do not mean “meaning” but rather a sub-component that helps make up the meaning. That's why I said not to confuse “sense” with, “That makes no sense!”
“Honestly, it isn’t that big a deal that Aquinas was not infallible! Everyone gets something wrong. ;)”
And he'd probably be one of the first to admit it. And believe me, I know Aquinas had some things wrong. Just off the top of my head he had a faulty biological understanding of human conception. It's just that in this case there doesn't seem to be anything against his position, and a whole lot for it if someone follows the metaphysical strain that he does.
Oh.. and this:
“Or, if you agree with Michael that senses and referents cannot be analyzed into sub-components”
Careful, I said that they couldn't be divided into further senses and referents, not that they didn't have any “sub-components”. If sub-components referred to some kind of broad metaphysical principles, then I think it is quite the case that they can be divided into further sub-components.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteSubject A and Subject B perform the same act in different ways. This is our definition of analogy. What is wrong with it?
When you say that A and B “perform the same act in different ways”, you are saying that the act is similar in both A and B. Look at my definition of “similar” above, and let me know if you disagree with it.
As far as similar and different as related to analogy, he would say that two things are similar according to a common thing, but different precisely in the way they manifest that common thing. All other differences don't matter for the analogy. If that fits with your definitions then you and he agree.
So, the two things being compared are the same in some ways, but different in others. For example, they are the same in that they share a common thing, but different in that how they manifest that common thing is different. That would be in keeping with my definition of “similar” and “analogy”. Do you agree?
Why is "good" an analogical term here? Because they both are good, but in man, the property of goodness flows from his essence, which contains a moral aspect that isn't present in the property of goodness in the triangle.
Let’s formalize this a little bit. There is “good in man” (say, G(M)), and “good in triangle” (G(T)). Would you say that G(M) is the same as G(T), similar to (G(T), or different from G(T), according to my definitions of “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference” above?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteLook at it this way: identity is a extremely large circle. Univocal is one small subset of identity's extremely large circle. Univocal is a kind of identity but is not identity. Univocal has a very specific scope, that of sense and reference of one predication being identical to another predication's sense and reference. Something cannot be univocal and not involve identity while, on the other hand, something can be identical and not involve univocality.
I have no problem with that, actually. It seems that we agree that when we are talking about meaning, “univocal” necessarily involves “identity”. That’s all I need for my argument.
No one here is saying that the 'common property (broadly defined) that is shared between two terms is not identical, but only similar'. Aquinas isn't saying that either. Who are you arguing against?
Then why can’t we say that the common property, at some level of analysis, necessarily must have a univocal core meaning that is common between the two terms? After all, it is exactly the same in both terms.
What you are really saying here is that 'two things that have something in common really do have something in common.' This is at a more fundamental level than what univocal, analogical, and equivocal actually deal with. You're not engaging with the concepts as they are defined.
How so? If what two things share in common is identical -- i.e. SP(X) = SP(Y) → R -- then how exactly is this different from “univocal”? Remember, “univocal” means that the sense (or “mode of signification”) and referent (or “thing signified by a name”) of P must be identical. That seems to match the situation in which SP(X) = SP(Y) → R.
My translation of the above: the meaning of the first predication is either identical with, similar to, or different from the meaning of the second predication. Note: to make it truly exhaustive you should say “completely different” rather than just “different”. Similarity already implies difference.
That is why I made it explicit in my definition of “different” at November 19, 2011 4:27 AM where I wrote: “(3) X is different from Y iff X and Y do not share any properties (broadly defined).” Let me know if you disagree with my definitions of “identical” and “similar” at that post.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteSo when the meaning of the first predication is similar to the meaning of the second predication, an infinite regress occurs? This is not true at all; it's a category mistake. Referents don't have further senses and referents, neither do senses have further senses and referents.
Here is the dilemma.
In order for X to be similar to Y, both X and Y must have parts that are the same and parts that are different. Thus, for any similarity relationship, the terms that are similar must have parts.
Now, either senses have sub-senses or they do not.
If senses have sub-senses, then they can bear similarity relations, because they have parts, but then you are stuck with an infinite regress unless the sub-senses can terminate in a univocal sense shared between the two terms being compared.
If senses do not have sub-senses (or parts), then they cannot participate in a similarity relationship, because similarity necessarily involves some parts that are the same and some parts that are different. Thus, similarity relations necessarily involve parts, and if senses do not have parts, then they cannot be part of a similarity relation. And if they cannot be similar, then they are either identical (and thus, univocal) or different.
No. Here you are saying that the sense is identical to the meaning of the predication. As I and others have been using the word “sense”, we do not mean “meaning” but rather a sub-component that helps make up the meaning. That's why I said not to confuse “sense” with, “That makes no sense!”
Can you explain this further with some examples?
Thanks!
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteWhen you say that A and B “perform the same act in different ways”, you are saying that the act is similar in both A and B. Look at my definition of “similar” above, and let me know if you disagree with it.
No, I am saying that A and B are similar with respect to the same act. It's different.
For example, they are the same in that they share a common thing, but different in that how they manifest that common thing is different. That would be in keeping with my definition of “similar” and “analogy”. Do you agree?
It lines up with mine as well. By Jove a breakthrough
Would you say that G(M) is the same as G(T), similar to (G(T), or different from G(T), according to my definitions of “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference” above?
Similar, because that mirrors what Norris Clarke said in the above quote:
"Note, too, that such similarity and difference in the analogous concept do not show up when the concept is considered in isolation by itself, but only when joined with a particular subject in a judgment or similar relation, thus: knowledge-in-God, knowledge-in-humans, knowledge-in- dogs."
K(G), K(H), K(D), etc...
I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) could humor me for a moment and give me an analogy so that I can attempt to break it down more rigorously.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteNo, I am saying that A and B are similar with respect to the same act. It's different.
But “similar” just means “the same in some ways, but different in other ways”. So, A and B would have to be the same in some ways with respect to the same act, and different in some ways with respect to the same act. And if not, then what exactly do you mean by “similar”?
It lines up with mine as well. By Jove a breakthrough
Great. So, look at my definitions of “analogy” and “similar”, and tell me exactly where you agree or disagree.
"Note, too, that such similarity and difference in the analogous concept do not show up when the concept is considered in isolation by itself, but only when joined with a particular subject in a judgment or similar relation, thus: knowledge-in-God, knowledge-in-humans, knowledge-in- dogs."
Again, this has to be demonstrated. I do not understand why there is no common univocal concept of “knowledge” that is shared by those three examples of “knowledge”. Maybe something like, “the possession of a true representation of reality”?
I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) could humor me for a moment and give me an analogy so that I can attempt to break it down more rigorously.
“Jack fought like a bull”, “life is like a box of chocolates”, etc.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteSimilar, because that mirrors what Norris Clarke said in the above quote:
Okay, so if G(M) is similar to G(T), then that means that there are properties (broadly defined) of G(M) that are the same as G(T), and other properties (broadly defined) of G(M) that are different from G(T).
Why can’ the properties (broadly defined) of G(M) that are the same as G(T) be considered “univocal”? After all, they share all properties (broadly defined) in common, because they are the same and identical.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteWhy can’ the properties (broadly defined) of G(M) that are the same as G(T) be considered “univocal”?
Because the essence of a Man is not the same as the essence of a triangle. If we were comparing the goodness of a triangle to a trapezoid, then they'd be univocal.
Again, this has to be demonstrated. I do not understand why there is no common univocal concept of “knowledge” that is shared by those three examples of “knowledge”.
All he meant there is that concepts in themselves are not univocal, equivocal, or analogical, until they are applied to another concept. He just meant that a relation is necessary. I doubt you'd disagree with that.
But “similar” just means “the same in some ways, but different in other ways”. So, A and B would have to be the same in some ways with respect to the same act, and different in some ways with respect to the same act. And if not, then what exactly do you mean by “similar”?
In what way do triangles participate in goodness that is the same as Man? If you say, "they both exemplify a natural end," you haven't answered the question, because that is the common referent, and I'm asking for same senses.
Thanks for the analogies; "life" is a bit too ambiguous, but I'll try the other...
You may have to find the particular definitions post you want me to confirm again...
BTW, I think I can provide a clearer definition of "property" as I think Aquinas would have understood it:
"A property or "proper accident" is any characteristic that is not the essence itself but "flows from" the essence, is caused by the essence, and therefore is always present in the subject because the essence is always present. A property is necessarily connected with the essence and therefore inseparable from it. "Able to speak," "able to laugh," and "mortal" are properties of "a man." "Having its three interior angles equal to two right angles" is a property of "triangle." "Able to change laws by popular consent" is a property of "democracy."
Josh:
ReplyDeleteBecause the essence of a Man is not the same as the essence of a triangle. If we were comparing the goodness of a triangle to a trapezoid, then they'd be univocal.
Why is that relevant? Are you saying that the essence of Man cannot share identical properties (broadly defined) as the essence of a triangle? You have mentioned one, although you keep asserting that it cannot be one. I am referring to the fact that both humans and triangles are good insofar as they actualize their natures. Sure, how they actualize their natures is different, but the fact that they both actualize their natures is the same.
To say otherwise would be like saying that “vehicle” cannot mean the same thing when describing a car and a motorcycle, because the former moves on four wheels as part of its essence while the latter moves on two wheels as part of its essence.
All he meant there is that concepts in themselves are not univocal, equivocal, or analogical, until they are applied to another concept. He just meant that a relation is necessary. I doubt you'd disagree with that.
First, is that just another assertion, or does he demonstrate this?
Second, they are being applied to another concept, i.e. via comparing two terms.
In what way do triangles participate in goodness that is the same as Man? If you say, "they both exemplify a natural end," you haven't answered the question, because that is the common referent, and I'm asking for same senses.
They both are good insofar as they actualize their natures. Unless you have different senses of “actualize” and “natures”, I don’t see your point here. Again, how they actualize their natures is different, but the fact that they actualize their nature is the same. That is the whole basis of the analogy!
You may have to find the particular definitions post you want me to confirm again...
They are at November 19, 2011 4:27 AM and November 19, 2011 4:44 AM. Let me know what you think about them.
dguller,
ReplyDelete“Then why can’t we say that the common property, at some level of analysis, necessarily must have a univocal core meaning that is common between the two terms?”
Because it is you that is saying it! No, no... I'm just kidding.
Here you are referring to an analogical predication, correct? The reason why there is no “univocal core meaning” (after taking into account your broadly defined properties) is that you are using the concept of univocal in the wrong way.
The Norris quote that Josh gave sums it up nicely:
"Note, too, that such similarity and difference in the analogous concept do not show up when the concept is considered in isolation by itself, but only when joined with a particular subject in a judgment or similar relation, thus: knowledge-in-God, knowledge-in-humans, knowledge-in- dogs."
At your deeper levels of abstraction, you are no longer dealing with the same predication... in fact, you are not dealing with any predication at all.
Step one: ask yourself, are the referents identical, yes or no... are the senses identical, yes or no. Yes, yes; no, no; yes, no; and no, yes are the only possibilities. If you have analogical predication (yes, no)... then what the heck is it that is now predicated in the next go-round? NOTHING!
“In order for X to be similar to Y, both X and Y must have parts that are the same and parts that are different.”
Sure.
“If senses do not have sub-senses (or parts), then they cannot participate in a similarity relationship, because similarity necessarily involves some parts that are the same and some parts that are different.”
Sure. (Senses don't have sub-senses, at least not without equivocation).
“Thus, similarity relations necessarily involve parts, and if senses do not have parts, then they cannot be part of a similarity relation.”
Correct! Senses do not have parts, at least none that are relevant to univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication.
“And if they cannot be similar, then they are either identical (and thus, univocal) or different.”
Almost, but no. You had me until you used the word “univocal”. Senses (which lack a further sense and referent) are either identical or different, they are not univocal (sense + referent). The whole (sense and referent together) is either univocal, analogical, or equivocal, not the parts.
You asked for some clarification of the word “sense”.
Meaning 1: logical coherence. For example, something that is a contradiction would lack sense in that it would be logically incoherent.
Meaning 2: One of the two parts that make up univocal predication, the other part being a referent.
I and others are using meaning 2 for the most part and not 1 when we use “sense”. Does that help?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThe man fought like a bull.
Subj A: Man
Subj B: Bull
Common Act/Property: Fighting (let's say: "vigorously opposing or struggling against")
So, let's explore two options.
Univocal: "That guy fought like a bull!"
"You mean he lowered his head and tried to gore someone?"
Analogical: "What a great round of Disputed Questions! Aquinas fought like a bull (or Ox)!"
The analogical sense works because we affirm the common property, but in Man we recognize a different sense that is not present in the Bull's essence: intellectual struggle, or fighting.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI am referring to the fact that both humans and triangles are good insofar as they actualize their natures. Sure, how they actualize their natures is different, but the fact that they both actualize their natures is the same.
I could have written this; as a matter of fact, I probably did somewhere among these 500 posts. If only I thought you understood this paragraph the way we are, then I wouldn't have any argument with you.
First, is that just another assertion, or does he demonstrate this?
Well it's easy enough to see. Is the term "fighting" in itself univocal, equivocal, or analogical?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteStep one: ask yourself, are the referents identical, yes or no... are the senses identical, yes or no. Yes, yes; no, no; yes, no; and no, yes are the only possibilities. If you have analogical predication (yes, no)... then what the heck is it that is now predicated in the next go-round? NOTHING!
First, not identical could either mean similar or different, and so you have to be more specific.
Second, if the next go-round is after a univocal meaning, then you are right that there is nothing after that. After all, the meaning has terminated in a univocal way, and there is nothing left to do. However, if the next step involves a similarity relation, then you have to continue, because a similarity relation implies that there are parts that are the same and part that are different. That is what “similarity” means. That is the whole point of my argument, which you seem to be endorsing without knowing it.
Correct! Senses do not have parts, at least none that are relevant to univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication.
But then you have conceded all my points. If senses cannot be part of a similarity relation, which you endorse above, then that only leaves identical and different as possible relations. If the former, then it is univocal meaning, because SP(X) and SP(Y) have the same sense and referent. If the latter, then there is no analogy at all, because it is impossible for SP(X) and SP(Y) to share nothing in common and yet still refer to the same referent. If you disagree, then provide a non-divine counter-example. Thus, you agree that analogy must terminate in univocal meaning!
Almost, but no. You had me until you used the word “univocal”. Senses (which lack a further sense and referent) are either identical or different, they are not univocal (sense + referent). The whole (sense and referent together) is either univocal, analogical, or equivocal, not the parts.
Again, we are agreeing without you knowing it.
Recall that in my analysis, I assumed that SP(X) and SP(Y) both had the same referent R. The issue was whether SP(X) and SP(Y) were identical, similar or different, according to my definitions of those terms (which you are free to dispute).
My conclusion was that the only relation that allowed the analogy and still preserved logical coherence was the relation of “identical”. “Similar” either terminated in “identical” or infinite regress. “Different” would make analogy impossible to begin with. So, that leaves only “identical”, i.e. SP(X)=SP(Y) → R. And what is that? The same sense and referent, which is the definition of univocal. QED.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThe analogical sense works because we affirm the common property, but in Man we recognize a different sense that is not present in the Bull's essence: intellectual struggle, or fighting.
First, your position would mean that abstract concepts lack sense and reference, which would destroy logic and mathematics.
Second, remember that for an analogy to happen, two compared terms just need one common property. In the example that you mentioned, that common property is not “goring someone”, but rather “attained an end through vigorous force”, or something like that. It is that property (broadly defined) that must have the same sense and referent in the comparison.
I could have written this; as a matter of fact, I probably did somewhere among these 500 posts. If only I thought you understood this paragraph the way we are, then I wouldn't have any argument with you.
Then what’s the problem? How does your position imply that “actualizing a being’s nature” does not have the same sense and referent when describing humans and triangles? Note, I asked you if “actualize” and “nature” had different sense and reference when used to describe the “goodness” of a human being and a triangle, and you did not answer.
I mean, I agree with you that how one’s nature is actualized differs between humans and triangles, but that is of secondary importance. Analogy is about the common properties that are shared between two compared terms. The differences are irrelevant when it comes to analogies. In this case, the common property (broadly defined), which even you agree with is “actualizing one’s nature”.
Well it's easy enough to see. Is the term "fighting" in itself univocal, equivocal, or analogical?
Let’s change things to “attained an end through vigorous force”. I would say that this has the same sense and referent when it is predicated of a fighter and a bull, and thus is univocal. You would have to show otherwise.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteAnd just to expand a little upon my points above.
Recall the set-up, which so far you have not objected to at all: X is being compared to Y, and they happen to share a common property (broadly defined) P. The sense of P in X is SP(X) and the sense of P in Y is SP(Y). Both SP(X) and SP(Y) refer to a common referent R (i.e. SP(X) → R and SP(Y) → R).
There are a few questions to ask at this point.
(1) Are the senses SP(X) and SP(Y) simple (i.e. no parts) or compound (i.e. have parts)?
(2) Is the relationship between SP(X) and SP(Y) characterized by identity, , or difference, according to my definitions above?
Here’s how it plays out, as far as I can tell.
If SP(X) and SP(Y) are simple, then they are either identical or different. They cannot be similar, because similarity implies parts that are identical and parts that are different, and thus without parts, there is no similarity possible. If SP(X) and SP(Y) are identical, then they share the same sense and referent, and thus are univocal. If SP(X) and SP(Y) are different, then they share no properties (broadly defined) in common, and thus cannot be part of an analogy at all, because it is impossible for two senses to share nothing in common, and yet still refer to the same referent. If you disagree with this, then provide a single non-divine counter-example.
If SP(X) and SP(Y) are compound, then they are either identical, similar, or different. If they are identical, then they are univocal. If they are different, then they cannot be part of an analogy at all. If they are similar, then the parts involved in the similarity relationship must either end in a univocal meaning, or infinite regress, as per my previous argument in another post.
The conclusion is that the only coherent option that preserves the analogy is for SP(X) and SP(Y) to be identical, and thus SP(X)=SP(Y) → R, which agrees with everyone’s definition of univocal.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteSorry, (2) should have read as follows:
(2) Is the relationship between SP(X) and SP(Y) characterized by identity, similarity , or difference, according to my definitions above?
dguller
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to ask: which way to do lean philosophically? I'm assuming you're no Thomist, but more interesting than the mere label is your take on Realism.
From the way this back-and-forth has played out I'd guess you're closer to the Extreme Realism of a Plato, say?
Despite your earlier dismissal I think it's important to appreciate the role of Aquinas's metaphysics in his understanding of analogy. As a Moderate Realist there's no stock-keeping realm of abstracts and forms for him to consider the way you do, I think, when you abstract concepts like “attained an end through vigorous force” from "fighting" in a *certain* way, for example. As Norris Clarke puts it:
"The Thomistic analysis is geared much more to the actual lived usage of the concept in a judgment, interpreted as an intentional act of referring its synthesis of subject-predicate to the real order, as it is in reality." (emphasis mine)
Looking back at our conversation I'm vacillating between seeing stark differences and seeing basic agreement; but one thing remains constant - you're more focused on conceptual analysis than analogical understanding (hence everything seems to terminate in univocality, ruling out analogy by definition).
Perhaps the *concept* of God could be understood univocally with the *concept* of this, that, or another - but is that what Aquinas was interested in? Norris Clarke again:
"The difference in pers-pective—and in theories of the relation of concept to judgment—leads to quite different conclusions, which I think are considerably more than a merely verbal dispute over different terminologies for the same thing, though there is some of that hanging like a cloud over the scene too, causing the opponents to pass each other in the fog without meeting." That's been us all right, and it will be, if this is just so much linguistic and conceptual fruit salad for you.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteI've been meaning to ask: which way to do lean philosophically? I'm assuming you're no Thomist, but more interesting than the mere label is your take on Realism.
The more I read about it, the more inclined I am towards a general Aristotelian framework.
As a Moderate Realist there's no stock-keeping realm of abstracts and forms for him to consider the way you do, I think, when you abstract concepts like “attained an end through vigorous force” from "fighting" in a *certain* way, for example.
But then that would undermine his entire metaphysical project. Look at his metaphysical deductions. Sure, there are examples, but he is engaging in conceptual analysis. You start from the reality of change (or motion), and add the premise that all change requires a transition from potential to actuality, and that all such transitions require the intervention of something actual, and you end up with Pure Act. He does not talk about specific examples at every step of the analysis, but assumes abstract principles with logical consequences.
I do not see how I am engaging in anything different from that kind of argument. I am defining my terms, as I believe they are actually used by living human beings, and following the logical implications of those meanings to their inevitable conclusion.
you're more focused on conceptual analysis than analogical understanding (hence everything seems to terminate in univocality, ruling out analogy by definition).
Again, such global assessments are unhelpful, to say the least. My argument is deductive, and thus you would have to show that my premises are false, or the inferences that I made based upon my premises are invalid.
Perhaps the *concept* of God could be understood univocally with the *concept* of this, that, or another - but is that what Aquinas was interested in?
All talk about God requires the concept of God, and so it is crucial that this concept is not empty. So far, it seems that Aquinas cannot have all his principles correct, but has to give up on something. As I mentioned, he must either give up his prohibition of univocal meaning when discussing God, or the reality of infinite regress, or his definition of “analogy”. However, taken as a totality, they result in contradiction, and thus cannot all be true.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteIn your formalized set up there, what is the relationship of P to R; similar, identical, or different?
dguller,
ReplyDelete“Second, if the next go-round is after a univocal meaning, then you are right that there is nothing after that.”
There is nothing after that even if it were analogical or equivocal.
dguller commenting to Josh,
“First, your position would mean that abstract concepts lack sense and reference, which would destroy logic and mathematics.”
Abstract concepts do lack sense and reference when they are not predicated. Your deeper analysis is going into mere abstraction and loosing sight of predication. Therefore you shouldn't use words that are valid only in the context of predication: univocal, analogical, and equivocal.
“I mean, I agree with you that how one’s nature is actualized differs between humans and triangles, but that is of secondary importance.”
Not to Aristotle it isn't. Neither to Aquinas. Both what it is and how it is actualized is vitally important and is the metaphysics that underlie the linguistic application of univocal, analogical, and equivocal.
“Recall the set-up, which so far you have not objected to at all: X is being compared to Y, and they happen to share a common property (broadly defined) P. The sense of P in X is SP(X) and the sense of P in Y is SP(Y). Both SP(X) and SP(Y) refer to a common referent R (i.e. SP(X) → R and SP(Y) → R).”
I most emphatically object! What does SP stand for? Sentence predication of P to whatever is in parenthesis? If so, you are not using “sense” correctly. You say sense = SP(X). I say sense + referent = SP(X). I am not using “sense” in definition 1 but only in definition 2 (as I laid out in my previous post). Until you understand this definition of “sense” and that it correctly corresponds with the metaphysics, you will not be addressing what any of us are saying. You will be speaking on another level and we will pass each other by.
Jack said,
“From the way this back-and-forth has played out I'd guess you're closer to the Extreme Realism of a Plato, say?”
I was starting to think his metaphysical foundation was Idealism. Is Extreme Realism that far away from Idealism?
dguller said in reply to Jack,
“But then that would undermine his entire metaphysical project. Look at his metaphysical deductions. Sure, there are examples, but he is engaging in conceptual analysis.”
His metaphysical deductions are rooted in principles abstracted from the physical world, the denial of which would be absurd (for instance, that there is no such thing as change, or existence, or causality). So far, while your definitions are interesting, they do not follow the contour of the world so to speak, but instead have free-reign in logical space. It makes your position too broad and too removed from what we actually experience.
“He does not talk about specific examples at every step of the analysis, but assumes abstract principles with logical consequences.”
Correction, although you are correct that he doesn't talk about specific examples at every step of the analysis, the principles are not assumed but have a solid foundation in experience. In his “Summa's” (summa being the key word that means summery) when he talks about the Five Ways and arguments for the existence of God, every statement he makes is backed up by further argument and examples (though just not contained there)--whether by himself, Aristotle, or the general Scholastic tradition.
Aristotle's basic framework is inescapable. If you want to embrace the use of reason and LNC, then you are led to something like Aristotle's metaphysics.
Basically, in general I have no problem with what you say, that analogies must have a property (broadly defined) in common and that this means an identity relation. Problem is, that is not what Aquinas is talking about when he speaks of analogy and language about God. So again, who are you arguing against?
“As I mentioned, he must either give up his prohibition of univocal meaning when discussing God...”
But Aquinas is not even talking about “univocal meaning” as you have defined it.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteIn your formalized set up there, what is the relationship of P to R; similar, identical, or different?
Let’s remember a few things first. P, being a meaningful sentence, has both a sense S and a referent R. So, you could write P = S + R. S is how R appears to us from a particular perspective, and R is what S is pointing towards, independent of any perspective. P is simply the combination of “something” and how that “something” appears to us. So, P combines something internal and something external into a unified represenation.
Now, let us examine your question. You are asking how this combined concept P is related to R. It would be “similarity”. P is not identical to R, because P also contains S, and thus they do not share all properties in common. P is not different from R, because it also contains R. So, the fact that both P and R have a common R, but differ in the presence/absence of S, I would say “similar”.
dguller,
ReplyDelete"Let’s remember a few things first. P, being a meaningful sentence, has both a sense S and a referent R."
That is missing what we are talking about. We are not talking about the meaningfulness of the sentence, but the meaningfulness of the predication, of the term applied to the subject... not of the sentence in general.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteThat is missing what we are talking about. We are not talking about the meaningfulness of the sentence, but the meaningfulness of the predication, of the term applied to the subject... not of the sentence in general.
A predicate is still a meaningful combination of words that has both a sense and a referent. Perhaps “sentence” was the wrong word to describe a predicate, because a sentence typically involves but a subject and a predicate in some way. You can call it whatever you want, but we both agree that it must be a meaningful combination of words that has both a sense and a referent. Or perhaps you differ on this point?
And I just wanted to comment on the double standards here. Some have complained that Thomists are interested in the living use of words, rather than the formal and abstract properties of them. However, just look at the definition of “goodness”. Most people use “good” to mean “free of pain and suffering”, “contented”, “fulfilled”, and so on. No-one uses it to mean “actualizing one’s nature”, except Aristotelians and Thomists.
ReplyDeleteSo which is it? The living use of words, which would undermine Thomism, or the permissibility of abstract and formal meanings that are extracted from the living use? You can’t have it both ways.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing.
Even if comparing R to P in terms of my three types of relational categories did not make sense, it is only because R and P are themselves in different categories. My argument does not utilize the three types of relational categories in such a way. I use them when comparing two senses, which are necessarily in the same category. So, even if you showed that those three relational categories do not apply to every single comparison, it does not touch my argument, which relies upon comparing two terms from the same common category.
Oh, and nonetheless, I could find other points of similarity of R and P, such as “part of the world”, “connectedness to something outside oneself”, and so on.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteLet me see if I understand this.
P=S+R
I see this as:
P=concrete term, property
S=modus significandi, sense
R=res significata, reference
X=Triangles
Y=Man
Now, P is in each analogate. Triangles are good. Man is good. What is good? Very broadly defined, it is "that which has goodness."
if
P= that which has goodness
then
R=goodness
Now, the S from P is found in each analogate still. But why is it SP(X)? Why does this not unpack as S(S+R)(X)? Would it not be clearer to say SR(X) and SR(Y)?
This would mean, in your terms of relation, that the sense of goodness in triangles is different from the sense of goodness in Man. Yet both would retain their commonality, goodness, and analogy would be preserved.
If, on the other hand, I use SP(X), I'm left with the sense of the sense of goodness in triangles is identical with the sense of the sense of goodness in Man? That would seem to imply an infinite regress of senses....
Help me if I'm off base.
Sorry, meant to include
ReplyDeleteS=that which is/has, where we understand this as flowing from an essence; "a thing has X" in a way or mode...
Josh:
ReplyDeleteNow, the S from P is found in each analogate still. But why is it SP(X)? Why does this not unpack as S(S+R)(X)? Would it not be clearer to say SR(X) and SR(Y)?
You could include R, but it would be unnecessary, because I stipulated from the start that SP(X) and SP(Y) both have referent R. And remember SP(X) just means “the sense of P for X” and SP(Y) just means “the sense of P for Y”. Again, both refer to R. The terminology is less important than the concepts involved.
This would mean, in your terms of relation, that the sense of goodness in triangles is different from the sense of goodness in Man. Yet both would retain their commonality, goodness, and analogy would be preserved.
You are muddling things.
At the initial setting up stage of the argument, I do not know which of the three relational possibilities is true. So, at the start, I cannot say that SP(X) is different from SP(Y). And again, if they are different, according to my definition of “different”, then they could have no “commonality” at all!
If, on the other hand, I use SP(X), I'm left with the sense of the sense of goodness in triangles is identical with the sense of the sense of goodness in Man? That would seem to imply an infinite regress of senses....
Not at all. If SP(X)=SP(Y), then the sense is just “actualizing one’s nature”, and it means the same thing with respect to Man and triangles. The moral dimension is an extra component that is added to this base account of “goodness”. The core account remains the same, just as the core account of “vehicle” remains the same whether that vehicle has four wheels (i.e. a car) or two wheels (i.e. a motorcycle).
Help me if I'm off base.
I hope that helps.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing after that even if it were analogical or equivocal.
My argument purports to show otherwise. Your assertion is insufficient to overcome an argument. I might as well say that Pure Act does not exist, because it just cannot. There!
Abstract concepts do lack sense and reference when they are not predicated. Your deeper analysis is going into mere abstraction and loosing sight of predication. Therefore you shouldn't use words that are valid only in the context of predication: univocal, analogical, and equivocal.
Really? Take the following:
There is change. Change means the transition from potency to act. Any transition from potency to act requires something actual to cause the transition. Therefore, there must be a Pure Act.
This is an entirely abstract argument that does not mention any particular instances of anything. According to you, this entire argument is empty of sense and reference? And if you are willing to grant that this kind of abstract form of reasoning is applicable, then why exactly is mine problematic?
Not to Aristotle it isn't. Neither to Aquinas. Both what it is and how it is actualized is vitally important and is the metaphysics that underlie the linguistic application of univocal, analogical, and equivocal.
Why is it simply impossible to differentiate a core property (broadly defined) from how it is expressed in different ways? I can understand the core property of “being a vehicle”, and understand that this core property can be expressed with wheels, wings, propellers, and so on. According to you, this is impossible. Can you provide an argument for your position, or is this just another assertion?
What does SP stand for? Sentence predication of P to whatever is in parenthesis? If so, you are not using “sense” correctly. You say sense = SP(X). I say sense + referent = SP(X).
First, SP stands for the sense S of property P.
Second, I did not include R in “SP(X)”, because I stipulated form the start that SP(X) → R, as does SP(Y) → R. If you want to expand my argument to include R in the terms, then go ahead, but it doesn’t change the validity of the overall argument. Just plug in “SP(X) → R” for “SP(X)”, and “SP(Y) →” for “SP(Y). See if anything changes. I don’t think anything does, and so the argument still stands.
His metaphysical deductions are rooted in principles abstracted from the physical world, the denial of which would be absurd (for instance, that there is no such thing as change, or existence, or causality). So far, while your definitions are interesting, they do not follow the contour of the world so to speak, but instead have free-reign in logical space. It makes your position too broad and too removed from what we actually experience.
So you object to my definitions of “analogy”, “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference”? I think that they are “rooted in principles abstracted from the physical world, the denial of which would be absurd”. Could you explain how it wouldn’t be absurd to say that X is identical to Y, but that X has different properties than Y? Or, how X is similar to Y, but they actually have nothing in common? I mean, come on. These are perfectly valid definitions, and you haven’t come up with a single non-divine counter-example to any of them to show their deficiency.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteCorrection, although you are correct that he doesn't talk about specific examples at every step of the analysis, the principles are not assumed but have a solid foundation in experience.
But at the moment that he mentions them, he does not also include a specific example to provide the sense and referent that you claim are absent in purely abstract statements. If you are agreeing that as long as these specific examples are available upon request and can rest in the background, then how exactly does that differ from what I am doing? Honestly, look at my definitions. Let me know where exactly they go wrong.
Basically, in general I have no problem with what you say, that analogies must have a property (broadly defined) in common and that this means an identity relation.
Okay, so you accept the conclusion of my argument that the only way for analogy to be possible is for it to rest upon a common property (broadly defined) that has the same sense and referent when predicated of either term being compared. If that is not “univocal”, then what exactly is it?
Problem is, that is not what Aquinas is talking about when he speaks of analogy and language about God. So again, who are you arguing against?
Look. I think that I have shown that his definition of “analogy” presupposes mine, and if I can show that my definition of “analogy” – plus definitions of “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference” – results in what it does, then all his sub-types of analogy equally require univocal termination points. And if that is true, then his position that God cannot be understood univocally in any way means that we cannot understand God by analogy at all.
The fact that he did not come up with this conclusion on his own does not invalidate it. Or perhaps it is impossible to refute anyone ever, unless they refute themselves?
And one more thing.
ReplyDeleteWhenever I think about a triangle, I necessarily think about a particular triangle. Does it follow that there is no triangular nature common to all particular triangles? Can we talk about this triangular nature abstracted from particular triangles? Mathematicians would say that we can – they are not talking about particular triangles after all – and so if we can do that, then why can’t we understand other core properties independent of the variety of their particular instantiations?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteAnd remember SP(X) just means “the sense of P for X” and SP(Y) just means “the sense of P for Y”. Again, both refer to R. The terminology is less important than the concepts involved.
Ok, well if P means S+R, then where does P change its meaning?
The sense of (S+R) for X and Y. Exactly as I outlined it. I'm just following your instructions...
If SP(X)=SP(Y), then the sense is just “actualizing one’s nature”, and it means the same thing with respect to Man and triangles.
Ok. If that is S, then what is R?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteOk, well if P means S+R, then where does P change its meaning?
The sense of (S+R) for X and Y. Exactly as I outlined it. I'm just following your instructions...
P could change its meaning if either S or R changes. However, if R remains constant, then only S would change to change P. You are correct.
Ok. If that is S, then what is R?
The R is the property of actualizing one’s nature. Do you want me to walk out into the street and point out “actualizing one’s nature”? I don’t know what you are looking for. The S points to R. In this case, it would be the property common to all beings with natures in which their natures are actualized in different degrees.
dguller,
ReplyDelete“S is how R appears to us from a particular perspective”
I don't think you're hitting the metaphysics as something's sense (the way it is predicated) is not subjective but corresponds to Aristotle's categories... substance, accident, quality, ect., which are not merely subjective.
“You can call it whatever you want, but we both agree that it must be a meaningful combination of words that has both a sense and a referent.”
Fine, I call it a “property”. Now do you see how unhelpful and confusing that would be if I were to do that. Precision is the only way our differences are going to be resolved... if they are to be. But yes, here we are good.
“However, just look at the definition of “goodness”. Most people use “good” to mean “free of pain and suffering”, “contented”, “fulfilled”, and so on.”
It seems to me that “actualizing one's nature” is very close, and at least fundamental, to all of these examples you put forward. But your beef here is not with Aquinas or even Thomists... it's with Aristotle.
“it does not touch my argument, which relies upon comparing two terms from the same common category.”
We are talking about different categories here. I am talking about the category mistake of using specifically linguistic/predicational terms in the place of metaphysical ones. You are talking about a shared property and its metaphysical category... I was not doing that.
“My argument purports to show otherwise. Your assertion is insufficient to overcome an argument.”
Nope, not an assertion. Step one, have two predications with a common term that is predicated of each subject. Note that both predications are composed of sense and referent. Go through all the possibilities... sense1 is identical to sense2 or not, referent1 is identical to referent2 or not—4 possibilities. Analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication use these “binary” operators. If you want to introduce a similarity between sense1 and sense2, the same outcome would result as both not being identical, supposing that referent1 and referent two had the same outcome.
If I say that referent1 is identical to referent 2, and that sense1 is not identical to sense2, then it is the same outcome as when I say sense1 is similar to sense2—namely analogical. Why are the outcomes of comparing senses binary? Because the sense is closely related to the metaphysics of Aristotle, namely substance, accident, quality (further subdivisions of accident). And something either is an accident or it isn't. Something is either a quality or it isn't. There is no such thing as a sense that is both substance and accident.
Senses don't allow for further senses based upon the metaphysics of Aristotle. You may come up with a different definition of sense (which I think you do still have), but it is not of Aristotle and Aquinas. Which just adds to the things you are defining differently than Aquinas. You are speaking Russian, Aquinas is speaking Japanese. Where's the beef.
(continued)
(continued)
ReplyDeleteAnd this is why your definition of property is leading you into confusion. You say something shares a property like it is some concrete part of its nature, but at the same time, your definition of property is so broad that it can include inessential relations and treat them the same way. Basically, your position allows for the outcome of applying terminology that is meant to be rooted in something's concrete nature, be applied to a relation—mistakenly.
The solution is a greater precision in the terms you are using. And it's not just your use of “different” that is wrong (I mean, whatever... I can make a mental note to add “completely” in front of it). It's your muddling of linguistic analysis with the categories of being, mistaking the abstract for the concrete and visa versa. You need to narrow down the scope of what you are including in your definitions so that you can see how different and varied the landscape is. In essence, you need to familiarize yourself more with Aristotle.
But I hesitate to make such an accusation since I myself need to familiarize myself more as well. I suppose we are all learners.
“This is an entirely abstract argument that does not mention any particular instances of anything.”
Yes, yes. But notice that there is predication involved. There is no further predication involved in your further abstractions of sense and therefore the terminology of univocal, analogical, or equivocal cannot be applied.
“Could you explain how it wouldn’t be absurd to say that X is identical to Y, but that X has different properties than Y?”
Just drop this notion because you cannot find an instance of anybody saying that... especially not Aquinas. If you did get this idea from Aquinas, it is only because you have a very foreign concept of property that is leading you to misinterpret him.
“I mean, come on. These are perfectly valid definitions, and you haven’t come up with a single non-divine counter-example to any of them to show their deficiency.”
Your definition of identity seems okay. And within your own system of thought what you say seems to make sense. The only problem is the translation to Aquinas' terminology. That's the catch which we are having so much trouble with... for the most part (and turning relations into concretes).
“But at the moment that he mentions them, he does not also include a specific example to provide the sense and referent that you claim are absent in purely abstract statements.”
I did not say that. Statements include predications. My point is that the level of abstraction you are trying to get at, namely, the sense of a sense, would no longer be a predication.
“Okay, so you accept the conclusion of my argument that the only way for analogy to be possible is for it to rest upon a common property (broadly defined) that has the same sense and referent when predicated of either term being compared. If that is not “univocal”, then what exactly is it?”
It depends if this is the original predication or an attempt to make a further one from the sense or referent of the original predication. The former would be univocal, the latter is confusion.
“Look. I think that I have shown that his definition of “analogy” presupposes mine...”
I'm not so sure. I think we are still at the level of translation. We need to get past this before any comparison can be made.
“The fact that he did not come up with this conclusion on his own does not invalidate it.”
Of course.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteI don't think you're hitting the metaphysics as something's sense (the way it is predicated) is not subjective but corresponds to Aristotle's categories... substance, accident, quality, ect., which are not merely subjective.
An example would be helpful here.
I am using sense in the same way that Josh is using it, i.e. the way something is signified, and referent as what is signified. Something can have different ways of being signified, even if it is the same thing, because it can appear differently in different perspectives. That is why the evening star has a different sense than the morning star, but share the same referent of Venus.
Fine, I call it a “property”. Now do you see how unhelpful and confusing that would be if I were to do that. Precision is the only way our differences are going to be resolved... if they are to be. But yes, here we are good.
Good. We agree that all meaningful combinations of words must have both a sense and a referent.
It seems to me that “actualizing one's nature” is very close, and at least fundamental, to all of these examples you put forward. But your beef here is not with Aquinas or even Thomists... it's with Aristotle.
My beef is with whoever endorses this double standard.
We are talking about different categories here. I am talking about the category mistake of using specifically linguistic/predicational terms in the place of metaphysical ones. You are talking about a shared property and its metaphysical category... I was not doing that.
Care to elaborate? I have no idea what you are talking about here. Are you saying that “univocal”, “equivocal” and “analogy” are all metaphysical concepts, and not linguistic ones? Also, this comment was directed to Josh about a completely different matter.
Analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication use these “binary” operators. If you want to introduce a similarity between sense1 and sense2, the same outcome would result as both not being identical, supposing that referent1 and referent two had the same outcome.
But there are two possibilities if S1 and S2 are not identical: similar and different. In the former, S1 and S2 share some properties (broadly defined) and differ in other properties (broadly defined), and in the latter, S1 and S2 share no properties in common at all, and have all their properties different. You are conflating two separate possibilities, which could be contributing to the confusion.
It would be like saying that since Paris is not a man, then he must be a woman. Well, the category of not-man includes not only females, but also all other non-human male living beings. You are like someone who says that Paris must be a woman, if he is not a man, when actually things are a bit more complicated.
If I say that referent1 is identical to referent 2, and that sense1 is not identical to sense2, then it is the same outcome as when I say sense1 is similar to sense2—namely analogical.
I’ve already explained why I think this is wrong.
Why are the outcomes of comparing senses binary? Because the sense is closely related to the metaphysics of Aristotle, namely substance, accident, quality (further subdivisions of accident). And something either is an accident or it isn't. Something is either a quality or it isn't. There is no such thing as a sense that is both substance and accident.
First, can you elaborate this classification with some examples?
Second, when did I say that a sense must be both a substance and an accident?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteSenses don't allow for further senses based upon the metaphysics of Aristotle. You may come up with a different definition of sense (which I think you do still have), but it is not of Aristotle and Aquinas. Which just adds to the things you are defining differently than Aquinas. You are speaking Russian, Aquinas is speaking Japanese. Where's the beef.
It is irrelevant for my argument whether senses are simple or compound. Either way, my conclusion follows. See my argument at November 20, 2011 5:16 AM for details.
And this is why your definition of property is leading you into confusion. You say something shares a property like it is some concrete part of its nature, but at the same time, your definition of property is so broad that it can include inessential relations and treat them the same way.
First, are you saying that if two substances have the same property as part of their natures, then I cannot say that they share the same property?
Second, change my argument to only apply to those properties that are essential to the nature of the terms being compared. Do you really think that compromises it? If you do, then exactly where does it fall apart because of this new issue?
Honestly, no broad claims about category mistakes and confusing linguistic for metaphysical issues. I have put all my chips on the table with clear definitions, formalized terms, and even the specific details of my argument. Pick it apart.
Basically, your position allows for the outcome of applying terminology that is meant to be rooted in something's concrete nature, be applied to a relation—mistakenly.
I don’t know what this means. Care to elaborate with examples?
It's your muddling of linguistic analysis with the categories of being, mistaking the abstract for the concrete and visa versa. You need to narrow down the scope of what you are including in your definitions so that you can see how different and varied the landscape is. In essence, you need to familiarize yourself more with Aristotle.
So, metaphysical categories do not have a linguistic component? Also, the issue is linguistic. We are talking about “univocal”, “equivocal”, and “analogy”, which are all linguistic categories. But I’m game. How exactly are these not linguistic categories, but rather metaphysical ones?
Yes, yes. But notice that there is predication involved. There is no further predication involved in your further abstractions of sense and therefore the terminology of univocal, analogical, or equivocal cannot be applied.
Can you cite some examples of what I wrote where this charge would be appropriate?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteJust drop this notion because you cannot find an instance of anybody saying that... especially not Aquinas. If you did get this idea from Aquinas, it is only because you have a very foreign concept of property that is leading you to misinterpret him.
So, Aquinas would agree with my definitions? You said that my definitions and concepts were incorrect, because they failed to be metaphysical abstractions from reality, and I offered some examples to the contrary. I’m glad you disagree with your previous claim.
Your definition of identity seems okay. And within your own system of thought what you say seems to make sense. The only problem is the translation to Aquinas' terminology. That's the catch which we are having so much trouble with... for the most part (and turning relations into concretes).
How does Aquinas differ in his understanding of “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference”? And where am I “turning relations into concretes”? I don’t know what this means.
I did not say that. Statements include predications. My point is that the level of abstraction you are trying to get at, namely, the sense of a sense, would no longer be a predication.
Where did I mention a “sense of a sense” in a way absolutely critical to my argument?
It depends if this is the original predication or an attempt to make a further one from the sense or referent of the original predication. The former would be univocal, the latter is confusion.
If this corresponds to my distinction between a simple and compound sense, then you miss the point that either way, the conclusion is the same, i.e. for the analogy to occur, it must terminate in univocal sense. If you agree with this, then we have no disagreement left. But Aquinas would have some words with you. ;)
Michael:
ReplyDeleteI don't think you're hitting the metaphysics as something's sense (the way it is predicated) is not subjective but corresponds to Aristotle's categories... substance, accident, quality, ect., which are not merely subjective.
An example would be helpful here.
I am using sense in the same way that Josh is using it, i.e. the way something is signified, and referent as what is signified. Something can have different ways of being signified, even if it is the same thing, because it can appear differently in different perspectives. That is why the evening star has a different sense than the morning star, but share the same referent of Venus.
Fine, I call it a “property”. Now do you see how unhelpful and confusing that would be if I were to do that. Precision is the only way our differences are going to be resolved... if they are to be. But yes, here we are good.
Good. We agree that all meaningful combinations of words must have both a sense and a referent.
It seems to me that “actualizing one's nature” is very close, and at least fundamental, to all of these examples you put forward. But your beef here is not with Aquinas or even Thomists... it's with Aristotle.
My beef is with whoever endorses this double standard.
We are talking about different categories here. I am talking about the category mistake of using specifically linguistic/predicational terms in the place of metaphysical ones. You are talking about a shared property and its metaphysical category... I was not doing that.
Care to elaborate? I have no idea what you are talking about here. Are you saying that “univocal”, “equivocal” and “analogy” are all metaphysical concepts, and not linguistic ones? Also, this comment was directed to Josh about a completely different matter.
Analogical, univocal, and equivocal predication use these “binary” operators. If you want to introduce a similarity between sense1 and sense2, the same outcome would result as both not being identical, supposing that referent1 and referent two had the same outcome.
But there are two possibilities if S1 and S2 are not identical: similar and different. In the former, S1 and S2 share some properties (broadly defined) and differ in other properties (broadly defined), and in the latter, S1 and S2 share no properties in common at all, and have all their properties different. You are conflating two separate possibilities, which could be contributing to the confusion.
It would be like saying that since Paris is not a man, then he must be a woman. Well, the category of not-man includes not only females, but also all other non-human male living beings. You are like someone who says that Paris must be a woman, if he is not a man, when actually things are a bit more complicated.
If I say that referent1 is identical to referent 2, and that sense1 is not identical to sense2, then it is the same outcome as when I say sense1 is similar to sense2—namely analogical.
I’ve already explained why I think this is wrong.
Why are the outcomes of comparing senses binary? Because the sense is closely related to the metaphysics of Aristotle, namely substance, accident, quality (further subdivisions of accident). And something either is an accident or it isn't. Something is either a quality or it isn't. There is no such thing as a sense that is both substance and accident.
First, can you elaborate this classification with some examples?
Second, when did I say that a sense must be both a substance and an accident?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI need to be able to plug in the meanings for each one of your letters there, just to be sure that I've understood.
So right now, I've got:
S(S+R)(X)---R and S(S+R)(Y)---R
Which so far, gets to:
Actualizing one's nature according to (Actualizing one's nature+the property of actualizing one's nature) in Man as it relates to the property of actualizing one's nature....
I don't even follow what's going on here. Can we get straight exactly what the letters are supposed to mean so that I can understand what you are doing formally?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteWe are talking about a common property P (broadly defined) that is shared by two things, X and Y. How property P is expressed might differ between X and Y by having different senses, and so I say that the sense S of property P in X is SP(X) and the sense S of property P in Y is SP(Y). Both senses have the same referent R. That is why I wrote SP(X) → R and SP(Y) → R.
If you want to make everything simpler, we could say that the sense of property P in X is S1, and the sense of property P in Y is S2. As before, S1 has referent R, and S2 has referent R.
Are you with me so far?
Dguller,
ReplyDeletewe could say that the sense of property P in X is S1, and the sense of property P in Y is S2. As before, S1 has referent R, and S2 has referent R.
The root of the problem here is that you are saying that each sense signifies two referents: P and R. It needs to just be one, for obvious reasons. That's why the nesting in your formal representation is causing me problems in interpretation.
If you said:
S(P)-X---R and S(P)-Y---R
then I'd understand S(P) as a function; "the sense (out of) P" similar to f(x) or somesuch. Then it would be the "sense of X" in relation to one referent, R. And then S(P)X and S(P)Y would be different, and analogy preserved.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThe root of the problem here is that you are saying that each sense signifies two referents: P and R. It needs to just be one, for obvious reasons. That's why the nesting in your formal representation is causing me problems in interpretation.
You can say that P = R, if you like. In other words, the property in question is the referent, and the sense is simply how that property/referent expresses itself in X or Y. Fine. In that case, whenever I mention P or R, you can just act as if they are the same thing.
Now, are you with me?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteHere’s another way to look at it.
From an ontological standpoint, P = R.
From an epistemological standpoint, P = S + R, because we have to include how R expresses itself to our awareness, i.e. S. That is also why we have to reach R through S, because S is what is present to our awareness, both through our senses and our intellect.
Hope that helps.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, but I think we may be crossing wires here on the "sense" part of it. Because the way I've been trying to use "sense," it is as much an ontological part as the properties themselves; i.e., a mode of being, the way they manifest the properties, as opposed to just the way we have to categorize them.
I notice in Feser's book that there may be an occasion for confusion on how we introduce sense and reference here and there. He uses it to talk about how two predicates can apply to one thing (the convertibility of the attributes--->God), and I've been using it to apply one predicate to two things.
That's why I've stressed modus significandi and way of being as better meanings. I hope the confusion of terms hasn't caused too many problems.
That being said, if P=R in the above formulation, I believe I'm on the same page.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, but I think we may be crossing wires here on the "sense" part of it. Because the way I've been trying to use "sense," it is as much an ontological part as the properties themselves; i.e., a mode of being, the way they manifest the properties, as opposed to just the way we have to categorize them.
Let’s just forget about sense. You can use “mode of being”, according to your definition as “the way they manifest the properties”, which I think also represents “modus significandi”.
In that case, there is X and Y being compared, and they share a common property P, which manifests itself as M1 in X and M2 in Y. Both M1 and M2 refer to P.
The two questions would then be:
(1) Does M1 and M2 have parts (i.e. is compound, and thus is amenable to further analysis) or have no parts (i.e. is simple, and is not amenable to further analysis)?
(2) Is the relationship between M1 and M2 best characterized by identity, similarity, or difference, as defined in a previous comment?
Are we okay, so far?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThere are basically six possible scenarios for you to assess:
(1) M is simple, M1 is identical to M2
(2) M is simple, M1 is similar to M2
(3) M is simple, M1 is different from M2
(4) M is compound, M1 is identical to M2
(5) M is compound, M1 is similar to M2
(6) M is compound, M1 is different from M2
It is my contention that only (1) and (4) can both preserve the analogy and avoid logical incoherence.
I look forward to your own assessment of which of the six possibilities you prefer.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteHere’s my own personal assessments of the six possibilities.
(1) M is simple, M1 is identical to M2:
This is by definition a “univocal” relationship, because there is no difference at all between M1 and M2, and thus there is only M, which refers to P.
(2) M is simple, M1 is similar to M2:
This is impossible, because all similarity relationships necessarily involve parts, and if M has no parts, then it cannot be in a similarity relation at all.
(3) M is simple, M1 is different from M2:
If M1 is different from M2, then they have nothing in common, and thus cannot both refer to P. If you disagree with this, then provide a single non-divine example of M1 and M2 that have nothing in common, but still refer to the same P.
(4) M is compound, M1 is identical to M2:
For the same reasoning as (1), this is simply a “univocal” relationship.
(5) M is compound, M1 is similar to M2:
If M1 is similar to M2, then there are some parts that are common between M1 and M2, and there are some parts that are uncommon (i.e. different) between M1 and M2. We can exclude the parts that are different, because they cannot be driving in the analogy for the reasons stated in (3).
So, that leaves the parts that are common. This can mean that the parts are either identical or similar. If they are identical, then they are univocal, for reasons in (1). If they are similar, then those parts must have further parts that are common and other parts that are uncommon. And either those further parts terminate in identity (i.e. univocality) or they continue down to another similarity relation, and onwards into an infinite regress.
(6) M is compound, M1 is different from M2:
For the same reasoning as (3), it is impossible for M1 and M2 to be different, and yet still be part of an analogy.
Michael:
ReplyDelete"I was starting to think his metaphysical foundation was Idealism. Is Extreme Realism that far away from Idealism?"
Given are we talking analogies I think here we can say "Idealism" vs "Extreme Realism" is like "te-MAY-to" vs "te-MAH-to".
dguller:
I hope I've never come across as dogmatically rejecting your analysis; it certainly has an intuitive force. But the more I've looked at it the less convincing I find it and the differences now seem to me little more than a pissing match between you and Aquinas, as to who has better grasped Aristotle's metaphysics. I have, no doubt, been influenced by the Angelic Doctor's authority (I would probably not have read as widely to understand your "opponent's" position had this been dguller vs Stephen Law, say). Believe it or not though I did *not* decide this dust-up in favour of Aquinas by default!
However the "simple" meaning where your analysis of "compound" terms terminates seems to be the same as formal cause. Your six possible scenarios miss this about contingent beings (from Coffey, Ontology or the theory of being):
"The causation of the formal cause consists in its formally constituting the effect: it is always either a substantial or an accidental form, and so must be referred to the categories of substance, or quality, or quantity." (emphasis mine)
The act of "being bull-like" is a bull's substantial form. The act of "being bull-like" is a separable common accident in a (perhaps broad shouldered, aggressive, domineering, what-have-you) "bull of a man". They are similar but in reality there is no disassembling of a separable common accident as if it were fruit salad composed of apple pear and syrup.
I wonder what Michael and Josh think but, with this in mind, I think "univocal", "analogical", and "equivocal" are best matched to your:
"(1) M is simple, M1 is identical to M2
(2) M is simple, M1 is similar to M2
(3) M is simple, M1 is different from M2"
But you then object because you have *defined* similarity as having parts; you just deny what Aquinas is *in reality* trying to capture: the whole of some substantial form being similar the whole of some accidental form (or what have you)
With respect to your assertions about logic and mathematics being meaningless under such a scheme: the judgments of logic and math are necessary truths (Quine notwithstanding). The above analysis applies only to *contingent* beings. This diagram at Telic Thoughts was very helpful to me. As was the accompanying article.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteBut you then object because you have *defined* similarity as having parts; you just deny what Aquinas is *in reality* trying to capture: the whole of some substantial form being similar the whole of some accidental form (or what have you)
First, I don’t understand what you mean by “the whole of some substantial form being similar the whole of some accidental form”.
Second, you can’t define “similar” by including “similar” in the definition, i.e. “X and Y are similar if they share a similarity between their forms”, or whatever. Otherwise, it becomes hopelessly circular.
I am open to the possibility that my definition of "similar" is flawed. If you can provide a better one, then I'm all ears, but I think that my definition nicely captures what we all mean by "similar".
Jack:
ReplyDeletejust wanted to repost my definition of "similarity":
X is similar to Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical, (2) X has some properties (broadly defined) in common with Y, (3) X has some properties (broadly defined) that are different from Y, and (4) the properties in (2) and (3) are not identical.
dguller
ReplyDeleteBy that definition *all* things are similar.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteBy that definition *all* things are similar.
No kidding. That is why analogy is such a powerful tool to extend our understanding into areas where it is limited. And would you object to a definition of “nature” or “essence” by virtue of the fact that *all* things have natures?
Jack:
ReplyDeleteAnd remember that “similar” is just the relationship that is between “identical” and “different”, just as “some” is in between “all” and “none”.
dguller responding to me, said:
ReplyDelete“I don't think you're hitting the metaphysics as something's sense (the way it is predicated) is not subjective but corresponds to Aristotle's categories... substance, accident, quality, ect., which are not merely subjective.
An example would be helpful here.”
The house is green and the car is green. The referent is green and the mode of being is accidental quality in both cases. Accidental quality, while perceived by a subject, is not merely subjective but actually exists as a part of the being as a whole, ie. both the green house and green car really do have greeness as an accidental quality.
“I am using sense in the same way that Josh is using it...”
From what I have gathered from the posts since mine, no, I don't think you both are using identical definitions at all. You both may agree on the same words, but then both of you use sense in very different ways. And if you needed any further proof that both you and Josh are not using the same definition of sense, just read his post where he says as much (and you respond by saying, 'well, let's just forget about the word and move on to such and such').
“Good. We agree that all meaningful combinations of words must have both a sense and a referent.”
I think you are too quick to jump to a conclusion here. I did not agree to as much. For instance, I think “green car” is meaningful, but since it is not a predication, it cannot properly be said to have a sense and referent. Only if I were to say “the car is green” would I have a sense and referent. If you could see the difference this makes, it would go a long way to clearing up some of the problems in this discussion.
“My beef is with whoever endorses this double standard.”
A double standard without a good example to back it up? As I said, it seems the Aristotelian definition of good captures your apparent counterexamples quite well.
“But there are two possibilities if S1 and S2 are not identical: similar and different.”
But even if it were possible to have similar modes of being (which it isn't), it would be irrelevant to Aquinas' definition of univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication as it only matters if the two modes of being are either identical or not identical.
(continued)
(continued)
ReplyDelete“You are conflating two separate possibilities, which could be contributing to the confusion.”
No confusion. It's deliberate because it is impossible to have similar modes of being (just bear with me until the end where I talk about your use of a common property, broadly defined—I do not address that here). A mode of being is either a substance, property (narrowly-defined), or accident (and all the categories that fall under accident). I'm probably not getting all the categories quite right, but someone can correct me if I am wrong—I think that the five predicables are applicable here, right?
And because you can't have something that is similar to a substance, property, or accident, but only a substance, property, or accident, when two modes of being are compared it is one of identity or non-identity. It either falls under one of the categories or it does not. This is the underlying driving force behind the binary outcomes for comparing a mode of being.
“Second, when did I say that a sense must be both a substance and an accident?”
You are implying this when you say that two senses (read: mode of beings) can be similar. They cannot because there is no such thing as a compound mode of being (to use your terminology). There is no such thing as a mode of being that is both a substance and an accident at the same time, on pain of contradiction.
“It is irrelevant for my argument whether senses are simple or compound. Either way, my conclusion follows. See my argument at November 20, 2011 5:16 AM for details.”
Here follows a snippet from dguller at Nov. 20th, 2011 5:16 AM:
“If SP(X) and SP(Y) are identical, then they share the same sense and referent, and thus are univocal. If SP(X) and SP(Y) are different, then they share no properties (broadly defined) in common, and thus cannot be part of an analogy at all, because it is impossible for two senses to share nothing in common, and yet still refer to the same referent.”
I was pretty much with you until here. With the proper understanding of mode of being, the conclusions above cannot follow. If both modes of being are identical, since they do not have both mode of being and referent because there is no predication, then it is nonsense to call it univocal, simply because univocal requires something with both a mode of being and referent (and here there aren't both). And if both modes of being are not identical, if both are different (because as we saw above modes of being cannot be similar), it is nonsense to say that it can't be part of an analogy. It's true, of course, that it isn't directly part of the analogy since what is being compared is both predications (and the underlying metaphysical structure) and not any subcomponents of the comparison. But the different modes of being are nontheless indirectly apart of the analogy as they are part of the metaphysical substructure that makes the analogy possible.
(continued)
(continued)
ReplyDeleteBut here's where it gets really interesting. You say that “it is impossible for two senses (read: mode of beings) to share nothing in common and yet still refer to the same referent.” In a way, you are correct when you use your property broadly defined. The problem is that at the base of mode of being, it is the categories of being that are fundamental (not a property broadly-defined)... they are primary... anything deeper is an abstraction which finds its being in relation to the whole substance, property, or accident. But note that when I say the modes of being are either identical or different, I am always referring to the categories of being, not some more narrow “component” of being such as a property broadly defined. Aquinas seems to be doing the same thing. So when you use your property broadly defined, you are able to go outside the scope of what Aquinas is even talking about.
Again, your main idea, about everything sharing a common property broadly defined is not so much incoherent (for the most part it is not) as it is ignoring our epistemology grounded in metaphysics. We have knowledge of unities first and foremost and everything else must be in relation to the unities (unities that exist as unities because of immanent teleology, something you accept?). I mean, Aquinas thought the laws of logic apply to everything that exists. He also thought that everything that exists was in some way in act.
It's just that he was careful of our way of knowing and so made sure our knowledge was in relation to the primary unities that we experience and properly have knowledge of. Aquinas' gives an analysis of predication, not of general meaning. The scope of meaning-period is much more vast than the scope of predication-meaning.
dguller commenting on me, said:
“Basically, your position allows for the outcome of applying terminology that is meant to be rooted in something's concrete nature, be applied to a relation—mistakenly.
I don’t know what this means. Care to elaborate with examples?”
Mode of being is a kind of relation of the predicate to the subject. When you say that mode of beings can be similar, you are treating these relations as concrete terms and mistakenly trying to then find another mode of being and referent where there isn't. The language of analogical, univocal, and equivocal are not designed for this kind of use.
“How does Aquinas differ in his understanding of “identity”, “similarity”, and “difference”?”
Probably the same if not very close. But it's important to remember that identity is not univocality, and similarity is not analogicality (okay, I sort of made up this word... sort of :) ).
In conclusion, I think the more you get into Aristotle the more you will start to agree with Aquinas' account of analogical predication (heck, you've seemed to pick up Aristotle's position of immanent teleology). Just a hunch, I suppose. I hope to make a greater study of Aristotle myself as well. He is so underrated nowadays, when in fact he was absolutely brilliant and some of his ideas are priceless as the truth is priceless.
And shout out to Jack, thanks for the analogy... I think I get it. Shout out to Josh, way to be patient and willing to get into the nitty gritty of dguller's well-thought-out system.
ciao,
Michael
Dguller et. al.,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the late reply. Been busy, but also wanted to mull over the choices I was given with regards to mode. Given Michael's recent comments, I think I'd stand behind what he said. Modes of Being correspond to Aristotle's ten categories, and the five predicables are relevant to what's actually being predicated (property).
(Don't worry, I'm not going to ignore your question:)
So I suppose that would mean we'd choose option (3). But as Michael noted, you can't just treat the modes of Being as properties themselves. We're looking for the same property predicated of two different categories of the summum genera...
So take the Man-Triangle thing again:
Man(X) and triangles(Y) are both good(P).
P (concrete, common property)-Good-that which has goodness
R (abstract referent in P)-Goodness-that whereby something is called good
M(x) and M(y)-modes of signifying-substantive; quantitative, respectively
This means (verrrrry broadly) that X and Y are related analogically to P. Man signifies goodness in a substantive mode, and Triangle signifies goodness in a quantitative mode. Substance and Accident are different modes, though accidents depend on substance for being. Hence that's why I'd pick numero 3.
Quick question:
ReplyDeleteWhen you say that X is like Y, it follows that X is neither identical to Y nor completely different from Y. That implies that there are some ways that X is the same as Y and some ways that X is different from Y.
If you agree with this, then in what way is X the same as Y, and in what way is X different from Y? In other words, what exactly are you applying the relational terms "same", "different", and "similar" to in this context?
Thanks.
dguller
ReplyDelete"In other words, what exactly are you applying the relational terms "same", "different", and "similar" to in this context?"
Quick question, but I'm not sure there is a quick answer.
May I point you at Coffey's "Ontology, or theory of being"? Read from page 135 to 158, covering Identity, Distinction, Logical Distinction and their Grounds, The Virtual Distinction and the Real Distinction, The Real Distinction and its Tests, Some Questionable Distinctions and the Scotist Distinction.
I would quote it all here but it would take me a lifetime to hunt-and-peck out the pages, and the ideas will no doubt have you referring to earlier chapters in the book.
However a few early quotes (for you to see if the whole will make fruitful reading for you or not):
"Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."
"If the object formally represented by each of the concepts is one and the same--as, e.g. when we compare "A" with "A" or "man" with "rational animal," or, in general, any object with its definition--the identity is both real and logical (or conceptual, formal). If the concepts differ in their formal objects while representing one and the same reality--as when we compare "St Peter" with "head of apostles," or "man" with "rational"--the identity is real, but not logical or formal. Finally, if we represent two or more realities, "John, James, Thomas," by the same formal concept, "man," the identity is merely logical or formal, not real. Of these three kinds of identity the first is sometimes called adequate, the second and third inadequate."
"It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."
"[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd here’s the other thing that I don’t understand.
You make a big deal about how there is human goodness and then triangular goodness. Human goodness is a “substantative mode” and triangular goodness is a “quantitative mode”. So what? They are both still modes of goodness, i.e. different ways that beings can actualize their natures, and that is the basis of the comparison.
I mean, either you can make general statements that abstract from particular instances, or you cannot. I think that you can, but you seem to think that you both can and can’t at the same time, which I just find baffling.
You write: you can't just treat the modes of Being as properties themselves. We're looking for the same property predicated of two different categories of the summum genera
Why can’t I say that mode of being is the common attribute (or property, or characteristic, or whatever)?
Jack:
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly does it mean to have a real identity without a formal identity? In other words, if the form defines what X is, then how can X be identical to Y unless they had the same form?
In addition, it seems that the distinction is between real particulars (i.e. form instantiated in a chunk of matter) and abstracted universals (i.e. form present in an intellect). In both, there are forms, and whenever we make any kind of comparison, it must necessarily be on the basis of forms, right? I mean, that is what connects different individual substances, and without it, then we are stuck with Humean particular events without any underlying connecting structure, which compromises all of science, as Feser has pointed out on numerous occasions.
So, I am utterly baffled by the claims here that comparisons can be made independent of the forms involved in the particular substances being compared. And if we can make such comparisons on the basis of forms, then what exactly is the problem? All forms (whether instantiated in a material or immaterial substance) can be compared by virtue of the relational concepts that I have defined, and so I really do not see the problem with my argument.
Help me out here.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteM(x) and M(y)-modes of signifying-substantive; quantitative, respectively
This means (verrrrry broadly) that X and Y are related analogically to P. Man signifies goodness in a substantive mode, and Triangle signifies goodness in a quantitative mode. Substance and Accident are different modes, though accidents depend on substance for being. Hence that's why I'd pick numero 3.
Just wanted to comment on this, as well.
If you pick (3), then M(x) and M(y) have nothing in common. How can you make an analogy between two things that have nothing in common, I wonder? Furthermore, as I mentioned in an earlier comment, wouldn’t it be fair to say that M(x) and M(y) both share the fact that they are modes of being of goodness? And if they do, then how can they be different in every way?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteWhy can’t I say that mode of being is the common attribute (or property, or characteristic, or whatever)?
Because those aren't predicables; they are ways of classifying terms in themselves, as subjects. They are what we apply properties to.
If you pick (3), then M(x) and M(y) have nothing in common. How can you make an analogy between two things that have nothing in common, I wonder?
That would indeed be a problem, if I was predicating my analogy on modes of being instead of the common property of goodness...
There is a relation between substance and accident, but I'm not sure that means they hold things in common: per prius et posterius; substance's definition enters into the definition of accident, as that which inheres in a substance, but accident does not have to enter in the definition of substance. There's a primary and secondary order there.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteBecause those aren't predicables; they are ways of classifying terms in themselves, as subjects. They are what we apply properties to.
How does one distinguish two different modes of being?
And could you answer this:
When you say that X is like Y, it follows that X is neither identical to Y nor completely different from Y. That implies that there are some ways that X is the same as Y and some ways that X is different from Y.
If you agree with this, then in what way is X the same as Y, and in what way is X different from Y? In other words, what exactly are you applying the relational terms "same", "different", and "similar" to in this context?
Thanks!
There is a relation between substance and accident, but I'm not sure that means they hold things in common: per prius et posterius; substance's definition enters into the definition of accident, as that which inheres in a substance, but accident does not have to enter in the definition of substance. There's a primary and secondary order there.
So, can one compare substances by virtue of the substantial and accidental forms that inhere in it and define what kind of substance it is? If you can, then what exactly is the problem here? And if you cannot, then how exactly do you compare substances? Also, can one compare accidents to one another? (It seems that you can: http://telicthoughts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Accidents.png).
I’m wondering if we can compare substances on the basis of their substantial and accidental forms, and that the similarity would have to be based upon the forms that define what they are. Certainly, there are sub-divisions to forms, i.e. the form of a “rational animal” necessarily contains the forms of “rational” and “animal”, which can each be further subdivided. So, why can’t we say that a similarity relation is such that there are some formal properties that are identical and other formal properties that are different when comparing two substances?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteWell, everything is either a substance or accident, or it is God. It's all on that magnificent chart that you and Jack put up. Part of the trouble here is that we are predicating a transcendental, which transcends the categories and enters into all of them.
If you agree with this, then in what way is X the same as Y, and in what way is X different from Y? In other words, what exactly are you applying the relational terms "same", "different", and "similar" to in this context?
Same according to res significata, different according to modus significandi. X is similar to Y.
I'm afraid I don't follow the last paragraph. We can compare accidents and substances...I was never denying that. They have to have a common predicable, not a common mode of being.
Josh,
ReplyDelete“Man signifies goodness in a substantive mode, and Triangle signifies goodness in a quantitative mode.”
In the given example I am having a hard time categorizing the modes. Can you talk more about why they fall under the modes that they do?
dguller responding to Josh, said:
“So, can one compare substances by virtue of the substantial and accidental forms that inhere in it and define what kind of substance it is?”
There is no problem making an analogy with substances and accidents. The problem is trying to make an analogy with modes of being. Modes of being aren't the subjects undergoing analogy, although they are part of the substructure that makes the analogy possible.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteBut even if it were possible to have similar modes of being (which it isn't), it would be irrelevant to Aquinas' definition of univocal, analogical, and equivocal predication as it only matters if the two modes of being are either identical or not identical.
What does it mean to say that two modes of being are either identical or not identical? How does one determine identity and non-identity when it comes to modes of being? What exactly differentiates one more of being from another? Is there a classification system of modes of being? How exactly does one decide where in the classification system a mode of being belongs to?
A mode of being is either a substance, property (narrowly-defined), or accident (and all the categories that fall under accident). I'm probably not getting all the categories quite right, but someone can correct me if I am wrong—I think that the five predicables are applicable here, right?
My understanding is that a substance is an individual being that has substantial and accidental formal properties that define what that being is. There is no such thing as a substance without formal properties, which can be either substantial (i.e. necessary and sufficient to identify what the being is) or accident (i.e. neither necessary nor sufficient to identify what the being is). However, we can differentiate substance from formal properties via our intellect by abstraction, which is why can identify universals at all.
Now, is it possible for “substance” to have no form? If so, then how do we even identify what a “substance” is supposed to be? In other words, that would imply that there is no definition for “substance”, and thus it means nothing. And if all modes of being have formal properties, then certainly we can compare any mode of being by virtue of those formal properties, whether substantial or accidental, right? And if not, then why not?
And because you can't have something that is similar to a substance, property, or accident, but only a substance, property, or accident, when two modes of being are compared it is one of identity or non-identity. It either falls under one of the categories or it does not. This is the underlying driving force behind the binary outcomes for comparing a mode of being.
Again, what determines the definition of “substance”, “property” and “accident”? They all share the fact that they are “modes of being”, for example, but differ in how they are expressed, and thus there must, at least, be a common form between them. And if you don’t like the word “form”, then what exactly would you call this shared “something”? And whatever you call this “something shared”, then can’t you say that these modes of being are similar in that the have this same “something shared” in common, but differ in how that “something shared” is expressed? And if you can do that, then you can have a similarity relationship after all!
There is no such thing as a mode of being that is both a substance and an accident at the same time, on pain of contradiction.
I am talking about the different properties (broadly defined) that define what the modes of being are. Seriously, all the modes of being are modes of being, and thus they share this fact. However, they also differ in a number of ways. I don’t see why a similarity relationship cannot be based upon such a set of common and uncommon properties (broadly defined).
Michael:
ReplyDeleteIf both modes of being are identical, since they do not have both mode of being and referent because there is no predication, then it is nonsense to call it univocal, simply because univocal requires something with both a mode of being and referent (and here there aren't both).
Take the following statements: (1) “Substance is a mode of being”, and (2) “Accident is a mode of being”. First, is it possible to say (1) or (2) to begin with? Second, is it possible to compare (1) and (2)? Third, in the comparison, does “mode of being” have the same meaning, a similar meaning, or a different meaning in (1) and (2)?
And if both modes of being are not identical, if both are different (because as we saw above modes of being cannot be similar), it is nonsense to say that it can't be part of an analogy. It's true, of course, that it isn't directly part of the analogy since what is being compared is both predications (and the underlying metaphysical structure) and not any subcomponents of the comparison. But the different modes of being are nontheless indirectly apart of the analogy as they are part of the metaphysical substructure that makes the analogy possible.
So, then “mode of being” is shared by both M1 and M2, as “part of the metaphysical substructure that makes the analogy possible”. That’s fine. But then we would have to say that an analogy between “substance” and “accident” would share the fact that they are both modes of being, but differ in the kind of mode of being they represent. After all, substance is not identical to accident (i.e. they are different kinds of modes of being), but neither is substance absolutely nothing like an accident (i.e. they are both modes of being). I don’t see why this is impossible or incoherent to say.
The problem is that at the base of mode of being, it is the categories of being that are fundamental (not a property broadly-defined)... they are primary... anything deeper is an abstraction which finds its being in relation to the whole substance, property, or accident. But note that when I say the modes of being are either identical or different, I am always referring to the categories of being, not some more narrow “component” of being such as a property broadly defined. Aquinas seems to be doing the same thing. So when you use your property broadly defined, you are able to go outside the scope of what Aquinas is even talking about.
But the categories of being are “substance” and “accident”, which has nine different sub-categories. A “mode of being” is just a way that being manifests or expresses itself. As such, the categories of being are modes of being. So, when you say “mode of being” are you just referring to the different categories of being, or are you talking generally about the different way any being can express itself in reality?
It seems to me that if any being can be accounted for by the primary mode of “substance”, and then the different “accidents” that identity what kind of substance it is, and if those accidents follow a specific classification system that is supposed to represent a real metaphysical structure, then why can’t one make the following comparison:
The number 6 is like running.
How can you make this comparison? Well, the number 6 and running both share the common accident of absolute intrinsic, but differ in that the number 6 is a quantity and running is a quality. So, according to my definition of analogy, they have the same accident (i.e. absolute intrinsic accident), but differ in the kind of absolute intrinsic accident (i.e. quality versus quantity).
Is this problematic, according to you?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteIf it isn’t problematic, then it seems that one can fit all my definitions into this Aristotelian framework. That to compare two terms in an analogy, they must share a common accident (whether necessary or contingent), and some differing accident. If they shared all accidents in common, then they are identical. If they differ in all accidents, then they are completely different. Analogy requires similarity.
Ultimately, this comes down to two questions.
First, does every mode of being have a form that defines what it is?
Second, do forms have an underlying metaphysical and hierarchical structure where everything is connected without any outliers?
There is no problem making an analogy with substances and accidents. The problem is trying to make an analogy with modes of being. Modes of being aren't the subjects undergoing analogy, although they are part of the substructure that makes the analogy possible.
I thought substances and accidents are modes of being. You are saying that we can make an analogy with modes of being, but the problem is making analogies with modes of being. It is like saying that one can compare apples and oranges, but one cannot compare fruit.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why this is complicated. If we agree that the modes of being are different, then there's no univocality. If we say they're identical, then substantial being and accidental being are identical, and we have the crumbling of Aristotle's categories. If we say that they're similar, then the problem just gets bumped up and up all the way to Being itself.
Michael,
Triangle would fall under continuous quantity,as an ideal mathematical object I believe, so that's why that particular classification.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteSame according to res significata, different according to modus significandi. X is similar to Y.
Is the modus significandi simple or composite?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why this is complicated. If we agree that the modes of being are different, then there's no univocality.
I disagree that they are different. I would say that they are similar, because (a) they both share the fact that they are “modes of being”, and (b) they differ in that one manifests being as a substance and another as an accident. If they were different, then they would have nothing in common. Surely, you agree that they share the fact that they are “modes of being”?
If we say they're identical, then substantial being and accidental being are identical, and we have the crumbling of Aristotle's categories.
That’s why I deny this, too.
If we say that they're similar, then the problem just gets bumped up and up all the way to Being itself.
Well, everything is similar to everything else in some way, but so what? That is what makes analogy so powerful. It allows us to highlight connections that were out of our awareness in order to increase our knowledge. The important point is that we can ignore the differences and focus upon the similarities in the compared terms, and that allows us to avoid trivializing analogy by just bumping it all the way up to Being, although yes, that is always an option.
Just a few questions about res significata (RS) and modus significandi (MS).
ReplyDeleteWhere I have difficulty is what extra factors are present in the MS that are not present in the RS. In other words, how exactly can one have different MS for the same RS?
I can understand how this can happen if the MS is a type of conscious awareness or perception of something, whether sensory or intellectual. In other words, a single thing (= RS) can appear differently from different perspectives, and that there are features in one perspective that are absent in another perspective, and those different features are what account for the fact that RS can have different MS.
That is how the evening star (= MS1) and the morning star (= MS2) can both refer to Venus (= RS). After all, Venus appears different when seen during the daytime versus during the nighttime, but there is still an object in the sky that is seen, and that is what is common between them. What that means is that on this account, there is still a common core within both MS1 and MS2 that identifies RS, and the others are just incidental features of different perspectives.
I understand that this is not how it works in Thomism.
Help me understand how a single RS can have different MS from a Thomist standpoint. From my understanding, if RS remains exactly the same, and there is nothing extra involved in the MS, then how exactly are they different? What makes them different?
And one can even use an intellectual example.
ReplyDeleteTake a dog as a RS. There are a number of different languages, which each have a different word for “dog”. Each of these words is embedded within a particular language, and each word is associated with other words by virtue of connotation. Thus, the word “dog” has negative connotations in some languages (e.g. Arabic), and has positive connotations in other languages (e.g. English). You can imagine that each language involves a particular perspective embedded within a web of signification, and that each RS can have different MS by virtue of different connections within this web. Again, there are different features in one perspective than another, despite the same RS, and that is why you can have a single RS, but different MS.
Without the idea of “perspective”, I don’t understand how this is possible. And this is not “subjective”, because there are objective features that are present in one perspective that are absent in another, and this is not just in the mind, but rather truly present in the world.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteI would say that they are similar, because (a) they both share the fact that they are “modes of being”, and (b) they differ in that one manifests being as a substance and another as an accident.
This means you are treating Being as a genus, and the categories as specifically different members of the genus. Vallicella has a reductio on that based on St. Thomas:
http://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2010/01/aquinas-on-why-being-cannot-be-a-genus.html
I don't know why it would trivialize analogy to talk about it in terms of Being; I mean, it all comes down to that anyway.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThat is how the evening star (= MS1) and the morning star (= MS2) can both refer to Venus (= RS).
Didn't we agree this wasn't a case of analogy?
Take "dog"
What are we predicating analogically of dog? What is it related to? These conditions are necessary before we can find the RS and MS...
Josh:
ReplyDeleteDidn't we agree this wasn't a case of analogy?
First, does MS and RS only apply to analogies?
Second, remember that it is your definition that an analogy occurs if there is MS1 and MS2, MS1 is different from MS2, and both MS1 and MS2 refer to a single RS. I want to know how this is possible, according to Aquinas.
What are we predicating analogically of dog? What is it related to? These conditions are necessary before we can find the RS and MS...
Take the English word for “dog” and the Arabic word for “dog”. The English word for “dog” has MS1. The Arabic word for “dog” has MS2. M1 is like MS2 in that they both refer to dogs (= RS), but they differ in that in the former “dog” has positive connotations, and in the latter “dog” has negative connotations.
Does that help?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteNo it applies to any predication of a common name of two things, AFAIK.
Yet, the mode of being in each of your examples there is the same; they are both words that refer to a dog, or dogness in the abstract. So we have a univocal relationship.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteHelp me understand how a single referent (= RS) can have two different MS’s, according to Aquinas. How does RS get split into MS’s, and what is it about the two MS’s that identifies the difference between them?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteHere’s another way to look at it.
You have a single name N, which refers to a single RS. N is used in two different sentences, and thus has two different MS (i.e. MS1 and MS2). So, you have two different factors in this situation:
(1) N → MS1 → RS
(2) N → MS2 → RS
Explain to me how this is possible, please. What has caused RS to split into MS1 and MS2?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteThis means you are treating Being as a genus, and the categories as specifically different members of the genus.
Are the following sentences are prohibited by Thomism?
(1) Substance is a mode of being
(2) Accident is a mode of being
(3) Substance and accident are different modes of being
(4) Substance and accident are both modes of being
If you are correct, then we cannot say (1) to (4) at all! And if we can say them, then how can we say them without implying that substance and accident both share the fact that they are “modes of being”, and (b) they differ in that one manifests being as a substance and another as an accident?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteIf you are correct, then we cannot say (1) to (4) at all! And if we can say them, then how can we say them without implying that substance and accident both share the fact that they are “modes of being”, and (b) they differ in that one manifests being as a substance and another as an accident?
You are right; I should have said substance and accident are analogously related. However, I don't think then that I could call them "similar." What common property do they hold?
Although, I could see if you predicated "modes of Being" as the common "property", you would still have irreducibly different modes of substance and accident...
ReplyDeleteDguller,
ReplyDeleteN is used in two different sentences, and thus has two different MS (i.e. MS1 and MS2).
This isn't necessarily true; the two things N is being predicated of have to be different types of Being. I could use 'animal' univocally or equivocally in two different judgments; e.g., horse and ox, or the Muppet character and a cat.
I wonder if maybe a distinction needs to be made between real and conceptual being and how the categories/modes might play into that...
ReplyDeleteJosh:
ReplyDeleteYou are right; I should have said substance and accident are analogously related. However, I don't think then that I could call them "similar." What common property do they hold?
I don’t know what you would call it, but they share that they are “modes of being”. That is what they have in common.
Although, I could see if you predicated "modes of Being" as the common "property", you would still have irreducibly different modes of substance and accident...
Not necessarily. We would just have to specify how those two modes of being are different. You could say that substance is a specific and particular being, and the accidents are the various attributes that combine within a substance to identify what it is.
This isn't necessarily true; the two things N is being predicated of have to be different types of Being. I could use 'animal' univocally or equivocally in two different judgments; e.g., horse and ox, or the Muppet character and a cat.
I know that. I am talking about the specific situation in which a specific N has a particular referent RS, but that N and RS have different MS when used in different sentences. I know that there are situations where N has a specific MS and a specific RS when in two different sentences, which is univocal, and where N has a different MS and different RS, which is equivocal.
I am not talking about those scenarios. I am talking about the situation where you have two sentences that each involve N, which refers to RS, but which each have a different MS.
I want to know how Aquinas explains how this situation is even possible. How can the same N and RS result in MS1 in one sentence and MS2 in another sentence? How does a single N and single RS result in multiple MS?
Do you know?
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteHow can the same N and RS result in MS1 in one sentence and MS2 in another sentence? How does a single N and single RS result in multiple MS?
Transcendental predicates transcend modes!
Not necessarily. We would just have to specify how those two modes of being are different. You could say that substance is a specific and particular being, and the accidents are the various attributes that combine within a substance to identify what it is.
I think I'm ok with that, although I'd be interested with Michael's thoughts on that.
Regardless, it seems univocality is still not in play here. At what point above this one are the MS and RS the same?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteTranscendental predicates transcend modes!
How does that explain how a single transcendental N and RS can have different MS in different sentences involving the exact same N and exact same RS? What is it about MS1 and MS2 that is different? What is it about MS1 and MS2 that is the same?
I gave my explanation for how a single N and RS can have multiple MS, and it necessarily involved either intellectual or sensory perception from multiple perspectives.
Do you have an equivalent explanation?
Regardless, it seems univocality is still not in play here. At what point above this one are the MS and RS the same?
If “mode of being” has the same N, the same MS, and the same RS in both “substance is a mode of being” and “attribute is a mode of being”, then “mode of being” is univocal.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd remember that whenever you say that X is similar to Y (or X is analogous to Y), then the burden is upon you to explain what about X is identical to Y, and what about X is different from Y. If you are unable to do so, then you cannot truly have a similarity relation or an analogy at all.
I would be like someone saying that “X is like Y”, and when asked how, they reply, “I don’t know, but it is.” How exactly does that further our understanding?
And simply saying that an analogy is similarity-in-difference, or something like this does not help, because you still have to explain what is similar (which probably means "identical" here), and what is different. Again, if you cannot, or if you say that this is impossible, then you have neither similarity nor difference, and thus have no analogy at all.
I would like to retract the following:
ReplyDelete“A mode of being is either a substance, property (narrowly-defined), or accident (and all the categories that fall under accident).”
What I should have said is what I said further down, namely, that there isn't an identity relationship between mode of being and substance, accident, ect., but that these concepts are fundamental in determining the mode of being. For example, when I say 'the car is green', greenness is being predicated of the car. The mode of being in this scenario is accidental. The mode of being in this scenario is not an accident. Accidental versus accident, hopefully the difference can be acknowledged.
As far as I know, the mode of being is a relation, and relations are not entities that have substance, accident, ect.
dguller said,
“There is no such thing as a substance without formal properties, which can be either substantial (i.e. necessary and sufficient to identify what the being is) or accident (i.e. neither necessary nor sufficient to identify what the being is).”
For the most part I agree. But I'd like to add that what you place in parentheses are not proper essential definitions. Functional definitions can nevertheless be helpful and may be better than nothing.
“Now, is it possible for “substance” to have no form?”
Nope. By definition.
“And if all modes of being have formal properties, then certainly we can compare any mode of being by virtue of those formal properties, whether substantial or accidental, right? And if not, then why not?”
You could compare the modes of being, for that is how we know if two modes of being are identical or not. But it is incorrect to say that the mode of being is a substance or accident. Rather it would be substantial or accidental (although you use these words in the post above, I don't think you have this distinction in mind).
You can compare them, but it doesn't follow that you can treat them exactly like the predicate and subject of an analogy.
“I don’t see why a similarity relationship cannot be based upon such a set of common and uncommon properties (broadly defined).” Well, you could depending on your flavor of similarity. It's just not the case that they can be compared in a univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication kind of way. This is one reason why I said the scope of meaning is larger than the scope of predication predication (you must have meaning in the components that come together to form the predication).
“As such, the categories of being are modes of being.”
As I tried to make clear at the beginning of this post, they are not. Therefore I won't comment on some things you said because they don't take this into account.
“And remember that whenever you say that X is similar to Y (or X is analogous to Y), then the burden is upon you to explain what about X is identical to Y, and what about X is different from Y. If you are unable to do so, then you cannot truly have a similarity relation or an analogy at all.”
Why would that follow. Why do all truths have to be communicable. I can understand all truths having to be communicable in principle, but I also see that we as humans are limited by the way we come to knows things (just a start, there is more that we are limited by). I think this gets at a very important truth, that of how we come to know things and its role in this discussion—very important!
“I would be like someone saying that “X is like Y”, and when asked how, they reply, “I don’t know, but it is.” How exactly does that further our understanding?”
Not much really. But the important thing to see is that the person who could not tell the exact specifics still had some sort of understanding.
Michael:
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, the mode of being is a relation, and relations are not entities that have substance, accident, ect.
That is interesting. So, does that mean that relational terms, such as “identical”, “similar”, “different”, “greater than”, “less than”, and so on, have no descriptions to define what they mean? And if they do, then what exactly do you call these descriptions?
For the most part I agree. But I'd like to add that what you place in parentheses are not proper essential definitions. Functional definitions can nevertheless be helpful and may be better than nothing.
Even if you grant the permissibility of “functional definitions”, then how exactly is this possible when it comes to modes of being, such as “substantial” and “accidental”? You are using words to describe an underlying structure, or form, of these terms, and that structure seems to have parts. For example, both are “modes of being”, but they differ in certain fundamental ways. However, this doesn’t seem to be possible, according to your metaphysical framework. So, what is going on here?
You could compare the modes of being, for that is how we know if two modes of being are identical or not. But it is incorrect to say that the mode of being is a substance or accident. Rather it would be substantial or accidental (although you use these words in the post above, I don't think you have this distinction in mind).
How can you compare modes of being, though? That is my question. If modes of being are not substances that have accidents, then we cannot use subject-predicate language to understand them, according to Aristotle and Aquinas. And without this language, then how exactly can we talk about them, including their similarities and differences?
You can compare them, but it doesn't follow that you can treat them exactly like the predicate and subject of an analogy.
How? What is the theory behind our ability to talk about them?
Michael:
ReplyDeleteWell, you could depending on your flavor of similarity. It's just not the case that they can be compared in a univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication kind of way. This is one reason why I said the scope of meaning is larger than the scope of predication predication (you must have meaning in the components that come together to form the predication).
Give me a definition of “similarity” that does not involve predication.
Why would that follow. Why do all truths have to be communicable. I can understand all truths having to be communicable in principle, but I also see that we as humans are limited by the way we come to knows things (just a start, there is more that we are limited by). I think this gets at a very important truth, that of how we come to know things and its role in this discussion—very important!
One idea I had early on in this discussion was that when comparing the goodness of God and the goodness of man that there was “something” common between the two that was present in both, as well as the important differences, but that maybe we simply cannot know – due to our limitations – what this “something” is. However, this “something” must be the same in both cases, because otherwise it becomes incomprehensible.
Why does it become incomprehensible? Because it would drain the word “similar” of all meaning. I have provided my definition of “similar”, which necessarily involves parts. No-one has provided an alternative definition. You are welcome to do so. However, if my definition is correct, it becomes incomprehensible to us, because it would come down to X and Y being similar, which requires parts for “similarity”, but X and Y have no parts, which is a contradiction. Again, the only way out of this is to provide a definition of “similarity” that does not involve parts in the two terms being compared.
dguller
ReplyDelete"I have provided my definition of “similar”, which necessarily involves parts. No-one has provided an alternative definition. You are welcome to do so. However, if my definition is correct, it becomes incomprehensible to us, because it would come down to X and Y being similar, which requires parts for “similarity”, but X and Y have no parts, which is a contradiction."
Coffey's "Ontology or the theory of being" has your answers. It can be downloaded for free at the link in a variety of formats including Kindle, EPUB and PDF.
Just prior to the pages I suggested in an earlier post Coffey's sections on The "Metaphysical Grades of Being" In the Individual, and The "Principle of Individuation" address similarity of really distinct individuals and some of your questions re: accidental mode of being.
I've found that because terms such as "inadequate" have technical meanings that aren't obvious, my process has been one of reading the target section and then 'flashing-back' to earlier sections to build up the necessary background.
Some Coffey:
"Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."
"The similarity of really distinct individuals, which is the conceptual identity of their qualities, is the ground on which we conceptually identify their essences. Now is there any reason for thinking that these grounds of similarity, as found in the individual, are really distinct from each other in the latter? They are certainly conceptually distinct expressions--each less inadequate than the wider ones--of what is really one essence. But we must take them all to be really identical in and with this individual essence , unless we are prepared to hold conceptual plurality as such to be real plurality; in which case we should also hold conceptual unity as such to be real unity. But this latter view is precisely the error of extreme realism, of reifying abstract concepts and holding the "universale a parte rei" - a theory which leads logically to monism."
"It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)." (emphasis and any mistakes mine)
In short, your definition of similarity necessarily involving parts is opposed to Aquinas's understanding of *real* similarity. For his arguments why this is so (and the relevant background) I'd advise spending some time with Coffey.
Also here is the link to Some Scholia on the Accidental Mode of Being which included the diagram of kinds of accidents.
ReplyDeleteJack, that blog post you link to is amazing.
ReplyDeleteJosh
ReplyDeleteI agree! I was very grateful for their visuals and examples.
I thought I'd linked to it earlier, and apologize for having forgotten the anchors in my haste to post previously.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteI’ve read the passages that you have quoted, and it seems that what Coffey is saying is that two unique individuals are similar if they share the same essence. He calls this “similarity” relationship, the “ground” that allows us to identify their essences. He calls their common essences, “the grounds of similarity”.
He then asks whether the essence in one individual is “really distinct” from the essence in the other individual. In other words, he is asking if X has essence E(X), and Y has essence E(Y), and E(X) and E(Y) are the ground that allows the similarity relationship to occur at all, then does that mean that E(X) and E(Y) are “really distinct”, i.e. truly different from one another. He has already said that E(X) = E(Y) = E, and so the only difference between X and Y is how E is expressed. But regardless, the difference in expression does not change the fact that they have the same E, which is actually the “ground” of the similarity relationship.
Help me understand how this differs from my definition of “similarity”?
Remember, X is similar to Y iff (1) X and Y are not identical, (2) X has something in common with Y, (3) X has something not in common with Y, and (4) what is common in (2) and what is uncommon in (3) are not identical.
In this case, X and Y are not identical, because they are different expressions of E, and thus (1) is met. X and Y share an identical E in common, and thus (2) is met. X and Y differ in how E is expressed, and thus (3) is met. And E and its expression are not identical, and thus (4) is met.
Moving on, Coffey then seems to argue against the possibility of analyzing essences into smaller parts with the assumption that “conceptual plurality” implies “real plurality”. What I understand here is that if an essence can be subdivided by analysis, then the smaller components may be true in our minds, but they do not truly exist in reality. In other words, when I take the essence of a human being to be a “rational animal”, then I cannot subdivide this into “rational” and “animal”, expecting these concepts to truly represent anything real outside of my mind.
I don’t see why any of this needs to be the case. I mean, there are animals that are not rational, and thus it is truly possible to separate those concepts and have them refer to something real.
Am I misreading him? It just seems that he is saying the same thing as me but in more convoluted language. The bottom line is that for a similarity relation to occur between two terms, then they must have something in common, and something not in common. In the case above, they share an essence in common, and they differ in how that essence is expressed. This all fits nicely in my definition of similarity.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteAnd look at this passage:
"It is not implied, nor is it true, that real similarity is a partial real identity: it is but the ground of a partial logical identity--identity under the common concept of some quality (in the wide sense of this term)."
Here there is a problem that also came up during prior discussions of teleology. The argument that Feser mentioned was that either teleology was truly present in the world, or it is simply a projection by our minds upon the flux of the world. If the former, then Aristotle is correct, and if the latter, then all talk of teleology is useless in terms of understanding the world, because it is just referring to our psychological projections.
Applying that here, the issue is whether when our minds create a similarity relationship between two things, then is this similarity relationship really in the world, or is it just a quirky aspect of our psychology?
If the former, then if a similarity relationship demands a common something that is shared, then that must truly be happening in the world.
If the latter, then it is irrelevant to understanding the world at all, because that concept is not actually contacting the world at all. But if that’s true, then all similarity relationships are psychological projections, including those that postulate similarities between God and created beings.
Jack & Josh:
ReplyDeleteAnd I just wanted to clarify why I say that similarity relationships, and thus analogies, require “parts”. Remember that for X to be like Y, then there must be something in common between X and Y, and something else not in common between X and Y. There is a division within X and Y in terms of a common “something” and an uncommon “something”. And if there is a division, then there are parts. That is why I say that similarity without parts is incoherent.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteHere is Coffey:
“The concept expressed by the predicate-term “being” is not totally different as applied to each subject-mode; for in all cases alike it implies either actual existence or some relation thereto. It only remains, therefore, that we must regard the notion of being, when predicated of its several modes, as partly the same and partly different; and this is what we mean when we say that the concept of being is analogical, that being is predicated analogically of its various modes.”
Notice the part where he says that “being” when predicated of the different modes of being is “partly the same and partly different”. Hmmmm. That sounds familiar … I suppose that you will say that "partly" does not imply "parts"?
dguller
ReplyDeleteI seem to be going backwards in time in answering your queries (see my follow ups below!). I just can't keep up
"Notice the part where he says that “being” when predicated of the different modes of being is “partly the same and partly different”. Hmmmm. That sounds familiar … I suppose that you will say that "partly" does not imply "parts"?"
Notice that he's discussing the *concepts* and not reality.
dguller
ReplyDelete"Help me understand how this differs from my definition of “similarity”?"
Firstly remember that Coffey reads Aquinas's as describing "identity" as "as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."
Remember also that for moderate realists it is self-evident that "whatever really exists is really an individual thing, definite and determined, itself and no other; that it is not common to others and cannot be attributed to others; that it is only by being intellectually conceived in the abstract, by becoming an object of intellectual thought, that a thing is stripped of its individuality, loses its incommunicability and becomes attributable to many"
You seem to be confounding the conceptual identity of the universal, which is abstracted from similarity of really distinct individuals, with real identity. "dguller is a man" and "Josh is a man" asserts "dguller" to be really identical with the nature of "man". Similarly "man" is embodied in, and identical with, "Josh" but we see also it is really and numerically *distinct* from the nature embodied in, and identical with, "dguller". The two really distinct natures are so similar, as embodied in the two individuals, that we can represent them by one and the same formal (universal) concept and describe them by the same name. This is the logical identity grounded in real similarity. And as Coffey says: "Were the nature I attributed to [dguller] really identical with that I attributed to [Josh], I should be entitled to conclude [dguller] and [Josh] are really identical -- a sufficient reductio ad absurdum of this [confounding of real and conceptual identity]"
I meant to get to an earlier question of yours but the conversation overtook me. It's relevant to this though so I'll address it below.
dguller
ReplyDelete"What exactly does it mean to have a real identity without a formal identity? In other words, if the form defines what X is, then how can X be identical to Y unless they had the same form?"
"St Peter" has a form; "head of the apostles" has a form; "man" has a form. When you interpret individual things ("St Peter") by means of universal ideas ("head of the apostles" or "man") in such judgments as "St Peter is head of the apostles," or "St Peter is a man" this does not imply that the universal (formal) ideas are "adequate" representations of the individual things in reality, or exhaust all that can be known about the latter.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThere is a division within X and Y in terms of a common “something” and an uncommon “something”. And if there is a division, then there are parts. That is why I say that similarity without parts is incoherent.
A division in a conceptual term I can follow; but a division in reality doesn't necessarily follow. When I see a banana on a table, I don't say that there are two things on the table; i.e., the banana and the yellowness of the banana. I think that's what Coffey is getting at.
Josh:
ReplyDeleteA division in a conceptual term I can follow; but a division in reality doesn't necessarily follow. When I see a banana on a table, I don't say that there are two things on the table; i.e., the banana and the yellowness of the banana. I think that's what Coffey is getting at.
That is true, but you do see a yellow fruit, which means that a banana can be analyzed into “yellow” and “fruit”. That is the kind of analysis I am referring to when I say that things are made of parts.
Dguller,
ReplyDeleteThat is true, but you do see a yellow fruit, which means that a banana can be analyzed into “yellow” and “fruit”.
Which is why I said I follow a conceptual term's division.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteNotice that he's discussing the *concepts* and not reality.
He is talking about being and modes of being. I think it is fair to say that he is talking about reality. The section that the passage is from is called: In what sense are all things that exist or can exist said to be “real” or have “being”? How exactly is he just talking about concepts?
You seem to be confounding the conceptual identity of the universal, which is abstracted from similarity of really distinct individuals, with real identity. "dguller is a man" and "Josh is a man" asserts "dguller" to be really identical with the nature of "man". Similarly "man" is embodied in, and identical with, "Josh" but we see also it is really and numerically *distinct* from the nature embodied in, and identical with, "dguller". The two really distinct natures are so similar, as embodied in the two individuals, that we can represent them by one and the same formal (universal) concept and describe them by the same name. This is the logical identity grounded in real similarity.
First, without “the conceptual identity of the universal”, how can we have “real identity”? To say that X is identical to Y, we must know E(X) and E(Y), which can only be known by abstraction from X and Y.
Second, when you say that ““dguller” is really identical with the nature of “man””, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that the essence of “man” necessarily contains “dguller”? Or do you mean that “dguller” has the essence of “man” by virtue of being a male?
Third, you seem to be saying that forms are simply in the mind, and not in reality. In that case, how can one have any knowledge of the world? One thing that I liked about Aristotelianism is that the forms in the intellect are the same as the forms in particular entities. That is how knowledge is possible. You seem to be implying that they are not the same. If that is the case, then what part of the forms in the intellect are different from the forms in particular entities? How can one determine this?
Fourth, even saying “real similarity” does not help, because this presupposes identity and difference, which you imply are simply intellectual constructs. Does that mean that even the relation of “similarity” is just a psychological projection? Does your position ultimately reduce to Kantian idealism?
"St Peter" has a form; "head of the apostles" has a form; "man" has a form. When you interpret individual things ("St Peter") by means of universal ideas ("head of the apostles" or "man") in such judgments as "St Peter is head of the apostles," or "St Peter is a man" this does not imply that the universal (formal) ideas are "adequate" representations of the individual things in reality, or exhaust all that can be known about the latter.
So what? The bottom line is that to say that “St Peter is a man” and “dguller is man” means that both St Peter and dguller share the common form of “man”. Either the form of man is the same in dguller and St Peter, or it is similar, or it is different. And either this identity, similarity or difference is really there, or it is simply in our minds. Which would you prefer?
Josh:
ReplyDeleteWhich is why I said I follow a conceptual term's division.
But does conceptual division refer to anything real? When does it and when doesn’t it?
dguller
ReplyDelete"First, without “the conceptual identity of the universal”, how can we have “real identity”? To say that X is identical to Y, we must know E(X) and E(Y), which can only be known by abstraction from X and Y."
Perhaps it will help to reiterate:
"Identity is one of those elementary concepts which cannot be defined; but perhaps we may describe it as the logical relation through which the mind asserts the objects of two or more of its thoughts to be really one."
“[...] real identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."
I do not see from these why we must know E(X) and E(Y) to have real identity except to make your argument work.
(verification word: monist - heh.)
Jack:
ReplyDeletereal identity: whatever we can predicate affirmatively about a being considered as one, and as a subject of a judgment, we regard as really identical with that being. We cannot predicate a real part of its real whole, or vice versa."
None of this makes sense to me. You criticize my account by saying that parts do not exist in reality, because in reality, everything is a whole particular entity that exists, which cannot be divided, except by the mind. That implies that such analysis and divisions are not truly present in reality, but only in our intellect.
However, the above passage says that “real identity” is just a “judgment” where we “consider” a being as “one” by virtue of “predicating affirmatively”. All of these words involve intellectual processes: “consider”, “judgment”, “predicating”. These are all mental processes that humans perform. So, it seems that “real identity”, which is supposed to be distinct from “conceptual identity”, presupposes the human mind in order to judge that something is “one”. And how does one judge anything without utilizing concepts?
I do not see from these why we must know E(X) and E(Y) to have real identity except to make your argument work.
You are right that we do not necessarily have to know E(X) and E(Y), but there must be, in reality, E(X) and E(Y) for real identity to occur. And this identity is not just an intellectual judgment, but rather something objectively real that would be true even if there were no minds in the universe. If you disagree, then you are stuck with a form of Kantianism in which our minds impose structure upon reality.
Jake:
ReplyDeleteAnd I just wanted to redirect your attention to Coffey's endorsement of my idea that "analogy" necessarily involves a comparison of terms in which they are "partly the same, and partly different". That implies that there are parts that are the same, and other parts that are different. And thus, for any analogy to occur, there must be an identical "something" present in both compared terms.
dguller
ReplyDelete"And I just wanted to redirect your attention to Coffey's endorsement of my idea that "analogy" necessarily involves a comparison of terms in which they are "partly the same, and partly different"."
Has anyone denied logical or formal identity in real similarity?
But Coffey (your quote notwithstanding) and other Scholastic realists do deny that real similarity implies partial real identity.
If you truly can't see the difference between logical (or formal, or conceptual) vs. real here you are, as I suspect, confounding the two.
Moreover, dguller, it appears you're guilty of a bit of confirmation bias in taking that Coffey quote about "partly the same, partly different" out of context.
ReplyDelete1. Our Concept of Being: its Expression and Features establishes that our notion of being as the simplest of all notions, defying every attempt at analysis into simpler notions is further the most indeterminate and most abstract of all notions. The *concept* of being is abstracted from the differences whereby things are distinguished from one another. The composition of being with its modes is, therefore, only logical composition, not real.
Again, for the avoidance of doubt, I do not read Coffey as denying logical (or formal, or conceptual, or universal, or what-have-you) partial identity. But we must be careful not to confound the logical with the real.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteHas anyone denied logical or formal identity in real similarity?
Yes, you do. When it comes to the real similarity between God and created beings, there is no “logical or formal identity”, or else there would be univocality when talking specifically about what is identical between God and created beings.
But Coffey (your quote notwithstanding) and other Scholastic realists do deny that real similarity implies partial real identity.
Real similarity between X and Y implies that (1) part of X is identical to part of X, and (2) part of X is different from part of Y, even according to Coffey’s quote. It seems to me that for similarity to be real, then (1) and (2) must both be real, and if either is unreal, then the entire similarity relation is thereby unreal.
It seems that you are saying that (1) is a logical identity, but not a real identity. After all, (1) would be the “partial real identity” that you say is impossible. So, if (1) is unreal, then “real similarity” is impossible. You simply cannot have the one without the other. And if you say that (1) is a real identity, then this would imply that you can have a “partial real identity”, because there is a real identity involved in parts of X and Y.
If you truly can't see the difference between logical (or formal, or conceptual) vs. real here you are, as I suspect, confounding the two.
The interesting question is whether this is a false dichotomy. I mean, “logical” must track “real”, right? Similarly, our concepts must refer to something real if they are to be true, right? So, it is not necessarily an either-or situation.
Furthermore, if you want to make it a sharp dichotomy, then you are stuck with a division between what happens in our minds (i.e. logical, conceptual) and what happens in the world (i.e. real). If you refuse to accept that there are common things that are identical and shared by our minds and the world, then you have brought into the philosophical program that Feser derides repeatedly on this blog. After all, you have just made knowledge impossible, whether mundane or divine.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteThe composition of being with its modes is, therefore, only logical composition, not real.
You are right that I misread Coffey on this point. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
But it actually turns out even worse for you.
If “identity”, “similarity” and “difference” are all just logical terms, but not considered real, then we cannot say that things are really identical, similar or different. This is just how our minds classify things, but this classification does not translate into reality. And if that is the case, then we cannot talk analogously about God and created beings, because analogy presupposes identity and difference (as per Coffey), which are only mental constructs (as per Coffey). As such, it all ends up being in our heads, and does not actually connect with anything real.
dguller
ReplyDeleteI think you're blowing this up into more than it is.
Formally inadequately identical objects are not really adequately identical and so can only be predicated analogically. What issue can you have with this?
The Schoolmen used the linguistic precision of Latin to carefully describe things in the *real* order.
But we haven't quite matched their preciseness - we are using mostly vernacular English, and we haven't devoted as much time to considering the background stuff. I won't subscribe to your definitions, and the ensuing conclusions strike me as non sequiturs -- but I do see where you were going and think the differences are, less a chasm, than a gutter that any frog could straddle. But I maintain that your definitions, because they are divorced from the metaphysics and therefore imprecise, will lead you into error.
"It seems to me that for similarity to be real, then (1) and (2) must both be real, and if either is unreal, then the entire similarity relation is thereby unreal."
No. Don't substitute your definitions, and it's pretty simple:
- Real identity without formal identity: The banana really is yellow; the banana really is fruit.
- Real similarity with only formal identity: dguller and Josh are men.
"If you refuse to accept that there are common things that are identical and shared by our minds and the world, then you have brought into the philosophical program that Feser derides repeatedly on this blog. After all, you have just made knowledge impossible, whether mundane or divine."
Like I say you're making too much of this. I may have cherry-picked quotes because I'm too impatient to get to an answer rather than dig through the background stuff; but I've tried very hard to not mischaracterize Coffey, or the other scholars, that have explicitly cautioned against confounding of the logical and the real.
Then again: on the one hand you seem to be saying I must be wrong because I'm buying into (ie, reading and regurgitating) what Dr Feser, Coffey, and Aquinas have written, and on the other hand you're telling me I'm wrong because I'm contradicting what they have written. I'm not sure where I gave the latter impression but I *am* sure that *you* are the one disputing Aquinas, and disputing him in the very ways that scholars of Aquinas have cautioned against.
It is still possible that somewhere I've mischaracterized someone and introduced error. If so I'm very sorry for that. But I must say: I don't see it.
dguller
ReplyDelete"You are right that I misread Coffey on this point. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
But it actually turns out even worse for you.
If “identity”, “similarity” and “difference” are all just logical terms, but not considered real, then we cannot say that things are really identical, similar or different."
No it turns out just fine. I don't know that you've actually defined or, given its elemental status, described "identity" anywhere. But I'm not happy with your definition of "similarity".
I have given one authority's description of "identity", including specifics on adequate and inadequate identity, and explicitly described real "similarity". I've not said anything about "difference" but have shown you where you can find out about logical distinction and real distinction. If you see this as somehow reducing everything to logical terms I can only wonder if you're not (yes, I know I'm repeating myself) confounding the logical and the real.
For now let's assume my lack of clarity is the reason you're struggling to come out in the same place.
You know where to read up on the Scholastic take. If, after getting to grips with the background, you still come out thinking that Aquinas is wrong, and that *all* analogy necessarily terminates in (partial real) identity - or that in discarding the distinctions between real and conceptual from your terms you are not confounding the two - then you can say so and put my mind at rest for not being at fault in aggravating any misunderstanding.
Jack:
ReplyDeleteFormally inadequately identical objects are not really adequately identical and so can only be predicated analogically. What issue can you have with this?
It depends. It depends upon what you mean. Here’s how I understand it:
(1) “Formally adequately identical objects” are objects that share everything in common and do not differ in anything.
(2) “Formally inadequately identical objects” are objects that share some things in common, and differ in other things.
Is that what you mean?
If that is what you mean, then how exactly is (1) different from my definition of “identical”, and how exactly is (2) different from my definition of “similar”? And if they ultimately come down to the same concepts, then all my criticisms and arguments remain valid.
I won't subscribe to your definitions, and the ensuing conclusions strike me as non sequiturs -- but I do see where you were going and think the differences are, less a chasm, than a gutter that any frog could straddle. But I maintain that your definitions, because they are divorced from the metaphysics and therefore imprecise, will lead you into error.
Honestly, it seems that your terminology ultimately reduces to mine. Every example that you have mentioned, including quotations from Coffey, simply seem to corroborate my own definitions. I mean, Coffey even came out and said that the core aspect of analogy is that the things being compared are “partly the same and partly different”. I would love for you to show how this differs in any way from my definition of “analogy”. And if you cannot, then even though the terminology may be different, the ideas underlying them are the same.
Real identity without formal identity: The banana really is yellow; the banana really is fruit.
You are confusing the “is” of predication with the “is” of identity. There is a difference between “the morning star is the evening star”, and “the morning star is a planet”. In the former case, you have “X is Y” where both X and Y refer to the same thing, and in the latter, you have “X is Y” where Y is a predicate of X, but certainly not identical by any definition of the term.
Real similarity with only formal identity: dguller and Josh are men.
I agree with this. But remember, for real similarity, you only need something in common, and something else different. In this case, what is common is the form of “man”, and what is different is that dguller and Josh are different men. Again, this reduces to my definition of “similarity”.
explicitly cautioned against confounding of the logical and the real.
I notice you didn’t address any of my arguments against this idea that the logical does not reflect reality. If logic is truly separate from reality, then why do we need logic to understand reality? I mean, why can’t the law of non-contradiction be violated by reality then?
Jack:
ReplyDeleteon the one hand you seem to be saying I must be wrong because I'm buying into (ie, reading and regurgitating) what Dr Feser, Coffey, and Aquinas have written, and on the other hand you're telling me I'm wrong because I'm contradicting what they have written. I'm not sure where I gave the latter impression but I *am* sure that *you* are the one disputing Aquinas, and disputing him in the very ways that scholars of Aquinas have cautioned against.
I am saying that there is a contradiction within Thomism, which is why there are contradictory statements. There are concepts that have implications that result in incoherence when taken together. Again, I have made this clear on a number of occasions on this thread. No-one has refuted my arguments, except to say that they are not reflective of Scholastic terminology. But when the terminology is presented, it seems to be fully consistent with all my definitions and concepts, albeit in a different idiom.
So, that means that my definitions are correct, and the logical conclusions based upon them are sound, as well. The only objection that has been raised is that the arguments only deal with logical and conceptual issues, and are utterly divorced from reaching reality at all. However, I have shown that this move ends up compromising all human knowledge, mundane and divine, because you end up setting up an unbridgeable gulf between our concepts and the reality that they aspire to describe.
And I find this doubly ironic, because I was criticized heavily for saying that it might be possible that logic could fail to describe some elements of reality! However, this move is not available to a Thomist who claims that all of reality is rational. If you want to reject this assumption of Thomism, then that is fine.
No it turns out just fine. I don't know that you've actually defined or, given its elemental status, described "identity" anywhere. But I'm not happy with your definition of "similarity".
I have above. And you still haven’t provided me with an alternative definition of “similar”. You have presented definitions that use different words, but they all come down to the same thing. To quote Coffey: “partially the same and partially different”. Unless you are using “the same” and “different” in idiosyncratic ways, then I’m afraid that you are stuck with my definition, because it is identical to yours.
I have given one authority's description of "identity", including specifics on adequate and inadequate identity, and explicitly described real "similarity".
And I’ve offered pointed criticisms of these ideas as incoherent when taken as a totality. Check out my comments at November 23, 2011 11:57 AM, November 23, 2011 1:33 PM, and November 23, 2011 1:37 PM. You haven’t refuted any of them.
If you see this as somehow reducing everything to logical terms I can only wonder if you're not (yes, I know I'm repeating myself) confounding the logical and the real.
Again, are you saying that “the logical” does not reflect “the real” at all? Is there no relationship between logic and reality? Do logical concepts and inferences not indicate truths about reality?