Thursday, April 14, 2011

The “one god further” objection

A reader calls attention to Bill Vallicella’s reply to what might be called the “one god further” objection to theism.  Bill sums up the objection as follows:

The idea, I take it, is that all gods are on a par, and so, given that everyone is an atheist with respect to some gods, one may as well make a clean sweep and be an atheist with respect to all gods. You don't believe in Zeus or in a celestial teapot. Then why do you believe in the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob?

Or as the Common Sense Atheism blog used to proclaim proudly on its masthead:

When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

I see that that blog has now removed this one-liner, which is perhaps a sign that intellectual progress is possible even among New Atheist types.  Because while your average “Internet Infidel” seems to regard the “one god further” objection as devastatingly clever, it is in fact embarrassingly inept, a sign of the extreme decadence into which secularist “thought” has fallen in the Age of Dawkins. 

Suppose someone skeptical about Euclidean geometry said:

When you understand why you regard all the particular triangles you’ve observed as having sides that are less than perfectly straight, you will understand why I regard Euclidean plane triangles as such to have sides that are less than perfectly straight.

Or suppose a critic of Platonism said:

When you understand why you regard the things of ordinary experience as in various ways imperfect or less than fully good instances of their kinds, you will understand why I regard Plato’s Form of the Good as being less than fully good.

Would these count as devastating objections to Euclidean geometry and Platonism?  Would they serve as fitting mottos for blogs devoted to “Common Sense Anti-Euclideanism” or “Common Sense Anti-Platonism”?  Obviously not.  They would demonstrate only that the speaker didn’t have the slightest clue what the hell he was talking about.

The “one god further” objection is no better than these stupid “objections” would be.  The “Common Sense Anti-Euclidean” objection supposes that the concept of a triangle as defined in textbooks of Euclidean geometry is merely one triangle alongside all the others that one comes across in traffic signs, dinner bells, and the like, only invisible and better drawn.  But of course, that is not what it is at all.  What the textbooks describe is not a triangle, not even an especially well-drawn one, but rather (Euclidean) triangularity itself, and the triangles one comes across in everyday experience are defective precisely because they fail to conform to the standard it represents.  The “Common Sense Anti-Platonism” objection supposes that the Form of the Good is merely one more or less perfect or imperfect instance of some class or category alongside the other instances, albeit an especially impressive one.  But of course, that is not what it is at all.  The Form of the Good doesn’t have goodness in some more or less incomplete way; rather, it just is goodness, participation in which determines the degree of goodness had by things which do have goodness only in some more or less incomplete way.  Similarly, the “Common Sense Atheist” or “one god further” objection supposes that the God of classical theism is merely one further superhuman being alongside others who have found worshippers – Thor, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, and so forth – only a superhuman being of even greater power, knowledge, and goodness than these other deities have.  But of course, that is not what God is at all.  He is not “a being” alongside other beings, not even an especially impressive one, but rather Being Itself or Pure Actuality, that from which all mere “beings” (including Thor, Zeus, and Quetzalcoatl, if they existed) derive the limited actuality or existence they possess.  Neither does He “have” power, knowledge, goodness, and the like; rather, He is power, knowledge, and goodness (where the “participation” relation in Plato’s theory of Forms is transformed by the classical theist into a relation between created things and their uncaused cause, in light of the doctrine of divine simplicity – and also thereby transformed, by Thomists anyway, into a kind of efficient-causal relation). 

Note that the “Common Sense Anti-Platonist” objection is a silly objection whether or not one accepts Platonism, and that the “Common Sense Anti-Euclidean” objection would be a silly objection whether or not one accepted Euclidean geometry.  In the same way, the “Common Sense Atheist” or “one god further” objection would be a silly objection even if one had other grounds for rejecting classical theism.  In all three cases, the objections represent a failure to understand even the fundamentals of the position one is attacking.

It is no good replying that lots of ordinary religious people conceive of God in all sorts of crude ways at odds with the sophisticated philosophical theology developed by classical theists – ways that make of God something like a glorified Thor or Zeus.  The “man on the street” also believes all sorts of silly things about science – that Darwinism claims that monkeys gave birth to human beings, say, or that molecules are made up of little balls and sticks.  But it would be preposterous for someone to pretend he had landed a blow against Darwinism or modern chemistry by attacking these silly straw men.  Similarly, what matters in evaluating classical theism is not what your Grandpa or your Pastor Bob have to say about it, but rather what serious thinkers like Aristotle, Plotinus, Athanasius, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Avicenna, Averroes, Maimonides, and countless others have to say. 

Nor would it be any good to insist that the “one god further” objection is significant at least as a reply to the more anthropomorphic “theistic personalist” conception of God that has replaced the classical theist conception in the thinking of many modern theologians and philosophers of religion.  For one thing, most theistic personalists, though they depart in significant (and in my view disastrous) ways from classical theism, are still committed to a far more sophisticated conception of God than purveyors of the “one god further” objection take as their preferred target.  (Comparing God to the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not a serious reply to a theistic personalist like Plantinga or Swinburne.)  More importantly, purveyors of this objection take themselves to be presenting a serious criticism of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and philosophical theism as such – not merely of this or that modern representative of these views – and the historically mainstream tradition in these religions and in philosophical theology is classical theist, not theistic personalist.  Hence to fail to address the classical theist conception of God is ipso facto to fail seriously to address the claims of these traditions.  In particular, unless one has made a serious study of philosophical theology as it has been developed within the Neo-Platonic, Aristotelian, Thomistic and other Scholastic traditions, one’s understanding of traditional Christian, Jewish, and Islamic theology, not to mention philosophical theism, is simply infantile.

Needless to say, your typical “Internet Infidel” or “New Atheist” is entirely innocent of knowledge of these traditions.  Nor is he much interested in finding out what they really have to say – he prefers to spend his time coming up with ever more elaborate rationalizations for refusing to find out.  But like the Myers Shuffle (the secularist rationalization du jour), the “one god further” objection has this much going for it: It is an infallible indicator that one is not dealing with a serious or well-informed skeptic.

[For readers who are interested in learning about classical theism, I have defended it at length in my books The Last Superstition and Aquinas.  I have also had reason to discuss it in several earlier posts, which deal with such issues as divine simplicity, the relationship between classical theism and theistic personalism, and the relevance of the classical theistic understanding of God to issues concerning morality and the problem of evil.  See, for example:







Please read at least the posts linked to before commenting critically on what I’ve written in this one, since I would rather not have to repeat things I’ve said elsewhere.]

243 comments:

  1. BenYachov said...
    I should be confident you now understand my actual argument why?

    Because I actually address it, look at it, and discuss it. Something you have not done with mine, except to offer an worse replacement for yours.

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  2. >Did you know World War I and World War II happened simultaneously (over the same time frame)?

    Rather the War in the Pacific Theater happened simultaneously with the War in the Atlantic & European Theaters. The time Frame being defined as WW2.

    Get it now Chuckles?

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  3. BenYachov said...
    One Brow: Simultaneous refers to the identical time frame of two events.

    Then your argument fails since the activities described by Feser just have to happen in the same "time frame". Which they clearly do.


    So, you are confused on the difference between two events having an identical time frame (time frame determined by the extent of the events) and two events occuring within a single frame of time (time frame not determinied by the extent of the events, but created for the sake of the argument). Your continued comments on the inteeligence of others form an interesting juxtaposition with this particular confusion.

    A Time frame is a period during which something takes place. It could be a minute, a second a nano-second etc...

    So you lose.


    As I point out to TheOFloinn, that means you can say the two world wars happened simutaneously, because they occured in the same time frame. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if you approved of that usage, in order o keep the notion supposedly irrelevant notion of simultaneity alive.

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  4. Adjectives do not have tenses.

    Nobody here has said otherwise accept in OB's weird imagination.

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  5. BenYachov said...
    One Brow: Did you know World War I and World War II happened simultaneously (over the same time frame)?


    Rather the War in the Pacific Theater happened simultaneously with the War in the Atlantic & European Theaters. The time Frame being defined as WW2.

    Get it now Chuckles?


    If you allow simultaneous to mean within any arbitrary time frame, the first statement becomes as true as the second.

    "Chuckles" is good though. I'm chuckling as I read your attempts to justify your stance.

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  6. The moving of a stone with a stick by a hand is close enough in the time frame that it is acceptable in ordinary speech to call it simultaneous.

    Live with it.

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  7. >If you allow simultaneous to mean within any arbitrary time frame, the first statement becomes as true as the second.

    Who cares? The point is Feser was making a metaphysical argument. Not an explanation of physics.

    Get over yourself already!

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  8. If Feser was trying to explain physics and was attacking physics then what he wrote would be bullshit.

    But he wasn't doing that now was he? He was explaining Actuality in Potency. Which is a metaphysical description of change.

    Don't you get that yet?

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  9. "Ordinary people" know tenses have adjectives? Funny, ordiary English teachers don't seem to know this.

    No, ordinary people know that tenses apply to verbs and the adjectives "simultaneous" or "instantaneous" are used to reflect the tension. The present progressive tense refers to action taking place, not to a theoretical instant of time. Thus: "The hand is gripping the golf club" and "The arm is moving the hand" are simultaneous acts, even if you were to imagine the arms swinging while leaving the hands momentarily in the lurch.

    This is not really difficult to grasp.

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  10. One Brow

    You argument is equivalent to this "Feser said the sun went down! Wrong! The Earth turns so the Sun didn't actually go down. Feser is not using appropriate language!'

    You and UB's bullshit is that petty and cannot be anything other than that!

    Get over it!

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  11. >No, ordinary people know that tenses apply to verbs and the adjectives "simultaneous" or "instantaneous" are used to reflect the tension. The present progressive tense refers to action taking place, not to a theoretical instant of time. Thus: "The hand is gripping the golf club" and "The arm is moving the hand" are simultaneous acts, even if you were to imagine the arms swinging while leaving the hands momentarily in the lurch.

    >This is not really difficult to grasp.

    I have faith Low Brow will find a way not to grasp it. It's the color thingy all over again.

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  12. TheOFloinn said...
    No, ordinary people know that tenses apply to verbs and the adjectives "simultaneous" or "instantaneous" are used to reflect the tension.

    I have got to see some sort of link that discusses verb tension reflection. That would be too funny. It's a word salad.

    The present progressive tense refers to action taking place, not to a theoretical instant of time. Thus: "The hand is gripping the golf club" and "The arm is moving the hand" are simultaneous acts, even if you were to imagine the arms swinging while leaving the hands momentarily in the lurch.

    So, the grammar dictates the physics, rather than the other way around, based on a notion of verb tension reflection? No, much more accurately, "the arm is moving the hand", and "the hand is moving the golf club" refers to consecutive acts of activation, not simultaneous.

    This is not really difficult to grasp.

    No, it's easy, and intuitive, and natural to grasp the notion the events are simultaneous. It's seductively simple. It's still wrong.

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  13. BenYachov said...
    The moving of a stone with a stick by a hand is close enough in the time frame that it is acceptable in ordinary speech to call it simultaneous.

    Close enough for metaphysical work? I was unaware that metaphysical description were acceptable if they were "close enough" to pass muster in "ordinary speech". Do you always hold to that standard, or only when using more precise knowledge works against you?

    Who cares? The point is Feser was making a metaphysical argument. Not an explanation of physics.

    As I have mentioned earlier, this is why I find it so curious that you and TheOFloinn nonetheless argue for an irrelevant point using such bad arguments, merely than acknowledge that the usage of "simultaneous" was improper.

    You and UB's bullshit is that petty and cannot be anything other than that!

    If the point is so petty, and you agree it is correct, why argue against it so vehemently?

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  14. much more accurately, "the arm is moving the hand", and "the hand is moving the golf club" refers to consecutive acts of activation, not simultaneous.

    So that explains why the hand is left behind while the arm swings! You must not score too well at golf.

    Meanwhile, have you anything to say regarding the actual topic?

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  15. >As I have mentioned earlier, this is why I find it so curious that you and TheOFloinn nonetheless argue for an irrelevant point using such bad arguments, merely than acknowledge that the usage of "simultaneous" was improper.

    Because any rational being would know that it is only improper if Feser was trying to give a dissertation on physics. Given the subject matter and context he clearly was not. But most rational people would know that saying "the sun went down at the end of the day" does not mean the writer is trying to advocate the cosmology of Ptolemy. No rational person misunderstand him here unless they where trying to on purpose.

    >If the point is so petty, and you agree it is correct, why argue against it so vehemently?

    Why don't you simply admit your objection is petty bullshit designed by a lazy Atheist who doesn't have the balls to either make a philosophical argument against the potency/actuality distinction or to make the case an essentially ordered series doesn't really need a beginning?

    Man up already!

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  16. TheOFloinn said...
    So that explains why the hand is left behind while the arm swings! You must not score too well at golf.

    What a wonderful non sequitur. A truly classic example. mind if I use it in a class?

    Meanwhile, have you anything to say regarding the actual topic?

    You mean, more than I already have? The "one more God" argument is not at all serious or useful. What more is there to say?

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  17. BenYachov said...
    Because any rational being would know that it is only improper if Feser was trying to give a dissertation on physics.

    So, when the topic is not physics, it's acceptable to use inaccurate physical descriptions as a point of emphasis? Are you that generous with people you disagree with?

    Why don't you simply admit your objection is petty bullshit

    So, correctly the emphasized aspect of an argument is petty?

    ... designed by a lazy Atheist who doesn't have the balls to either make a philosophical argument against the potency/actuality distinction or to make the case an essentially ordered series doesn't really need a beginning?

    Which atheist would that be? I actually like the potency/actuality distinction, and it you read the link I offered, you would have read the argument against the need for an essentially ordered series to have a beginning.

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  18. This is identical to the last time (which is why I keep bring it up to throw in your face)!

    Instead of being a man & either arguing the universe is not a set of contingent things or that contingency wasn't an expansive property you made the bullshit argument that color wasn't an expansive property.

    Of course what you where really, deceptively, saying was light absorption properties in matter are not expansive. Which was the equivalent of claiming 2+2=5 because you redefined the numeral "5" to mean four objects.

    Well now you are simply repeating UB's bullshit which was already answered in the past.

    Feser's writing here is fine. Your reading comprehension skills however still suck as badly as my sppelling.

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  19. >So, when the topic is not physics, it's acceptable to use inaccurate physical descriptions as a point of emphasis?

    Well it is still acceptable to say the sun goes down.

    Live with it.

    >you read the link I offered, you would have read the argument against the need for an essentially ordered series to have a beginning.

    I looked threw it & I can't digest your blather since it so full of tangents. If you have such an argument then produce it & stop wasting our time regurgitating UB's bullshit.

    I am no more interested in that than I am in what's his face on the other blog's birther bullshit.

    You know who I am talking about.

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  20. >The "one more God" argument is not at all serious or useful.

    Agreed! Yet somehow Feser's use of "simultaneous" was taken as a serious exposition of motion in physics in regards to time periods by the Gnus?

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  21. QUOTE"The sort of example that in TLS I follow Aquinas in using, viz. a hand’s using a stick to move a stone, is (as I note in the book) just an illustration to generate the key concepts; strictly speaking, a hand isn’t a first mover. And strictly speaking, quibbles over whether the movement of the stick occurs at exactly one and the same instant of time as the movement of the stone are not to the point either. As I emphasize in the book – and this is something UnBeguiled omits to mention – ultimately the stone, stick, and hand all depend for their very existence at any moment (forget about their movements through space) on the actualization of various potentials."END QUOTE

    So you are just repeating UB bullshit. I will have none of it.

    You are not rational.

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  22. You haven't even given an original defense. You just are repeating past bullshit.

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  23. BenYachov said...
    This is identical to the last time (which is why I keep bring it up to throw in your face)!

    I suppose that's easier than trying to form an actual counter argument beyond 'it doesn't matter if Dr. feser was wrong'. Do you think that's effective, though?

    Instead of being a man & either arguing the universe is not a set of contingent things

    Actually, I said that for all I could tell, properties like gravity were not contingent, but necessary, so the universe was not made solely of contingentent things. That earned crickets from you, while you focused on the color argument.

    Of course what you where really, deceptively, saying was light absorption properties in matter are not expansive.

    Yes, I was still think that form was a physical thing. I learned that's really true of Aristotelian forms.

    Well now you are simply repeating UB's bullshit which was already answered in the past.

    You mean, UnBeguiled made his point, stopped posting, and lots of other posters stepped in to respond at that point with the same inaccurate answers you and TheOFloinn have been offering? Let me know when the correct answers get here.

    Feser's writing here is fine.

    If you really felt that way, you would have had less of a problem with the confusion of the formal cause and effective cause of color.

    Well it is still acceptable to say the sun goes down.

    To make a metaphysical point?

    I looked threw it & I can't digest your blather since it so full of tangents.

    I accept you limitations. Try focusing on paragraph 8.

    Agreed! Yet somehow Feser's use of "simultaneous" was taken as a serious exposition of motion in physics in regards to time periods by the Gnus?

    No. The real seriousness has been exhibited by posters rushing to justify a clearly incorrect passage, rather than just say it is a minor error.

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  24. As we can see Low Brow reading comprehension is still not one of your strong suits.

    You have channeling UB Ex Cathedra decreed the sole meaning of the adjective "simultaneous" in the context of Feser's writings here in spite of the fact only you & UB have come up with that weird meaning.

    Everyone else who reads it understands the meaning of just an illustration to generate the key concepts; since a hand is not a first mover etc".

    Your "But he said the sun goes down at the end of the day! Clearly that is wrong because Ptolemy's Cosmology is wrong!" argument is asinine .

    Deal with it.

    >The real seriousness has been exhibited by posters rushing to justify a clearly incorrect passage,

    Is this an example of a rational argument against their arguments on your part?

    Do as I say & not as I do.....

    >If you really felt that way, you would have had less of a problem with the confusion of the formal cause and effective cause of color.

    Project much?

    >I accept you limitations. Try focusing on paragraph 8.

    I'll take a look at it. Maybe it will say something substantive but I won't hold my breath.

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  25. >I suppose that's easier than trying to form an actual counter argument beyond 'it doesn't matter if Dr. feser was wrong'. Do you think that's effective, though?

    About as effective as you claiming UB's critics where "rushing to justify a clearly incorrect passage" rather than give an actual rebuttal to their rational take down of his asinine stupidity. Which you for some equally asinine reason have chosen as the hill you want to die on.

    Repeat after me. Color is an expansive property! The sun goes down at the end of the day & a hand moving a stick moving a rock happens simultaneously.

    It's not hard.


    Now stop majoring in the minor stupid and in the future make an argument.

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  26. BenYakov,

    UnBeguiled critics presented no arguments that you and TheOFloinn have failed to produce, and they have been unimpressive.

    Personally, I don't mind much that you revel in the equivocations so, I just enjoy pointing out the hypocisy of your loud proclamations of equivocations by others.

    Outside of that, your last two comments were basically free of meaningful content, so there is little point in a response.

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  27. UnBeguiled(& One Brow), UnHinged, and UnWorthy of further attention


    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/07/unbeguiled-unhinged-and-unworthy-of.html

    I love this quote from a fellow named Ian "UnB is the critic in this situation, and it is his responsibility to understand the argument he is criticizing, and to address it on its own terms. It's not Ed's responsibility to bend over backwards to accommodate UnB, particularly considering UnB's conduct."

    I love repeats.

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  28. >UnBeguiled critics presented no arguments that you and TheOFloinn have failed to produce, and they have been unimpressive.

    Rather you have no intelligent rebuttal. So you turn up the bitching.

    >Personally, I don't mind much that you revel in the equivocations so, I just enjoy pointing out the hypocisy of your loud proclamations of equivocations by others.

    I am not against equivocations. I am against bad argument by equivocation.

    There is a difference.

    >Outside of that, your last two comments were basically free of meaningful content, so there is little point in a response.

    Now you know what it is like to respond to your blather.

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  29. BenYachov,

    "That groups of religious persons participate in politics does not equal religion being nothing more than a branch of mere politics."·

    Since I didn't say religious persons participating in politics equals "religion being nothing more than a branch of mere politics," you are seriously confused about my position. But you'd rather continue searching for a market for your shabbily manufactured straw men. They do seem to amuse you though so I guess they're not a total waste.

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  30. BenYachov said...
    Rather you have no intelligent rebuttal. So you turn up the bitching.

    I have no complaints. I've enjoyed the conversation so far.

    Stil if you truly think I've neglected some morsel, feel free to present one criticism of the point you feel has been unaddressed.

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  31. BenYachov said...
    I love this quote from a fellow named Ian "UnB is the critic in this situation, and it is his responsibility to understand the argument he is criticizing, and to address it on its own terms. It's not Ed's responsibility to bend over backwards to accommodate UnB, particularly considering UnB's conduct."

    I agreed, which is why I devoted thirteen posts, over a few months, to reviewing TLS on it's own terms. I gained much from the experience, and have no regrets, but I was not suprised when the only people to respond were those that have there own issues with Dr. Feser. Dr. Feser's position, taken on it's own terms, proved no more convincing than any of the positions he rails against.

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  32. One Brow

    I looked at the 8th paragraph of your so called review.

    It was beyond awful.

    But we will save that for next time since you wore me out with your useless tangent.

    >but I was not suprised when the only people to respond were those that have there own issues with Dr. Feser.

    Yeh jerks who don't understand philosophy and have a one size fits all polemic against Theism.

    No surprises there.

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  33. BenYachov said...
    But we will save that for next time since you wore me out with your useless tangent.

    Something for everyone to look to forward to, I'm sure.

    I have a visible widget for rect comment on my blog, and my bolg is not very busy. So, feel free to comment in the thread at any time. It'll show up.

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  34. As a Christian, the "one god further" objection used to be a problem for me.

    That is, until I realized my real goal shouldn't be to prove mere names or titles that every religion competes for to begin with. Names are superficial, but attributes aren't.

    The one attribute I had to prove was omnipotence (in the general deist sense). Everything fell into place after that. And I mean everything. Omnipotence can be proven.

    Not only that, but omnipotence becomes the litmus test for all other beings aspiring to the title of "God." Each one can be sifted for quality. If non-omnipotent, then it's simply thrown out. This narrows the field very-very quickly. For example, Thor's contingent lineage goes all the way back to a cow (yes, a cow). Therefore, the entire pantheon is wiped out.

    -Paulomycin (a little antibiotic of ideas)

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  35. Well, I couldn't possibly read all the comments. I'll leave mine. I do not believe in God, no more than I believe in Zeus. To me, they're pretty much the same; but not in regards to their attributes.

    You see, these attributes you are describing to make your point about how "different" these gods are, these attributes are backs by absolutely no data.

    And the fact that thousands of years later, we have not a shred of evidence more for the existence of either of these Gods; is exactly why we don't take your God seriously.

    You can claim the bible is your evidence, but these other religions had their stories too. A physical book doesn't count as evidence for a supernatural claim.

    In fact, you did not "understand why you dismiss all the other possible godd" and yet you attack the argument claiming that it is a strawman of some sort...

    Why do you dismiss Zeus without reading into their theology to make sur he is not the real creator of the universe? The truth is you don't. You do not feel a need to justify your rejection of the beliefs of Hindus and Incas. According to Muslim beliefs, you are headed for eternal damnation. Note how little sleep you are going to lose over that; and how easily you are going to dismiss their "holy book".

    Well, atheists go "one god further". If you don't understand that, you are the one being dishonest, I think.

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  36. I can't speak for all atheists, but I've never used this as an actual argument against theism. I have however found it useful to explain to theists how I am not afraid of threats of hell. To me, it's not an objection to theism but a device for atheists to help theists understand them better.

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  37. you are a moron Sir

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  38. It is truly disappointing that you can take a single comment and make a full blown conclusion about the lesson. One god further is about recognizing that there is no empirical difference between Zeus and Jehova and Yahwe and Buddha. There are two types of evidence for religious belief. Personal experience which we all know to be subjective and the written lore. Did you know that there was know Heaven in the Old Testament? All dead went to Sheol according to it. And what about the one hundred thousand years of modern homo sapiens that lived before Christianity or Christ? Did got just let them go to Hell? Read the text on your own and give it the value it deserves. If you can do that without bias, you will be an atheist.

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  39. Someone who apparently thinks that signing himself "Open Minded" is a substitute for knowing what he's talking about said:
    Did got[sic] just let them go to Hell?

    What [the?] Hell are you talking about? You just said that all the dead went to Sheol.

    Read the text on your own

    ...or, you know, get some help. That's allowed. Some people need help understanding what they read.

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  40. "You see, these attributes you are describing to make your point about how "different" these gods are, these attributes are backs by absolutely no data."

    "One god further is about recognizing that there is no empirical difference between Zeus and Jehova and Yahwe and Buddha."

    But as the blogpost shows, there ARE logical and philosophical differences, which is enough to refute the objection.

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  41. Your presupposition is incorrect. "The idea, I take it, is that all gods are on a par".

    For some background, let's remember that Dawkins is a Scientist. His tools are logic and evidence. All gods are on par when it comes to the thing that matters most: evidence. From this standpoint, they are in fact all equal. Dismissing one is therefore equal to dismissing another.

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  42. I have been discussing this argument online recently. I don't see anything on the page that is a particular knock-out for the argument itself.

    Individual religious people through history have practiced their belief, sacrificed and prayed, there have been temples and priests in innumerable religions. Somehow, the thousands of years of this are dismissed with zero effort at all, simply because your religion is current.

    You've made several arguments here that just feel off the mark for me, for example:

    "When you understand why you regard all the particular triangles you’ve observed as having sides that are less than perfectly straight, you will understand why I regard Euclidean plane triangles as such to have sides that are less than perfectly straight."

    This assumes that your religion is the Euclidean standard and that all others are not. This is exactly what the argument is about, i.e. how do you make this assumption about other religions? They are dismissed with no more than the wave of a hand.

    Similarly, "Neither does He “have” power, knowledge, goodness, and the like; rather, He is power, knowledge, and goodness" - don't forget, you aren't dismissing Zeus or Thor here - you are trying to dismiss ALL other gods from all other religions, some of whom have pretty much identical features as God does. Some of them are living religions with deep theology and history, going back further than Christianity. Not only that, this feels a bit like a childhood playground discussion on how strong their dad is, i.e. my dad can lift 100 pounds! And it quickly escalates to "infinity plus one!" and "infinity plus a million!".

    I don't quite get how this refutation is convincing in any way. People continue to say "that applies to all other religions but mine". That was the point.

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