Thursday, January 20, 2011

Against “neurobabble”

Every written token of the English word “soup” is made up of marks which look at least vaguely like “s,” “o,” “u,” and “p.”  Of course, it doesn’t follow that the word “soup” is identical to any collection of such marks, or that its properties supervene on the material properties of such marks, or that it can be explained entirely in terms of the material properties of such marks.  Everyone who considers the matter knows this.

To borrow an example from psychologist Jerome Kagan, “as a viewer slowly approaches Claude Monet's painting of the Seine at dawn there comes a moment when the scene dissolves into tiny patches of color.”  But it doesn’t follow that its status and qualities as a painting reduce to, supervene upon, or can be explained entirely in terms of the material properties of the color patches.  Everyone who considers the matter knows this too.

Somehow, though, when neuroscientists discover some neural correlate of this or that mental event or process, a certain kind of materialist concludes that the mind’s identity with, or supervenience upon, or reducibility to, or complete explanation in terms of neural processes is all but a done deal, and that the reservations of non-materialists are just so much intellectually dishonest bad faith.  In a recent online op-ed piece for The New York Times, and in an apt phrase, philosopher of mind Tyler Burge criticizes this tendency as “neurobabble,” which produces only “the illusion of understanding.”  For it is as fallacious as any parallel argument about words or paintings would be.

Now one source of neurobabble is the standard but false materialist assumption that the only dualistic alternatives to a “naturalistic” account of the mind are either Cartesian substance dualism or property dualism, with their attendant interaction problem.  To be sure, and as I have noted many times, materialists often deeply misunderstand even these forms of dualism (or at least Cartesian dualism) and direct their objections at crude straw men.  [For some examples, see this post on Daniel Stoljar, and my four-part series of posts on Paul Churchland, here, here, here, and here.  For discussion of the shallowness of materialist arguments in general, see this post on Frank Jackson and this post on (the non-shallow) Noam Chomsky.]

Still, from an Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) point of view, even Cartesian dualism is a modernist error, the “evil twin” of materialism.  It exaggerates the divide between mind and matter, even as materialism exaggerates their affinity.  (For A-T, many modern positions are “evil twins” in this sense – rationalism and empiricism, libertarianism and socialism, Kantian deontology and utilitarianism, and so on – each removing a genuine insight from the classical metaphysical framework in which it makes sense and then twisting it into a grotesque caricature of itself by ignoring the opposite, balancing insight.  I’ve been meaning to write up a post on that theme, but it is addressed at least indirectly in The Last Superstition.)

The A-T approach is what David Oderberg has called “hylemorphic dualism.”   Unlike Cartesian dualism, which regards a human being as a composite of two substances, res cogitans and res extensa, hylemorphic dualism regards a human being as a single substance.  But unlike materialism, which tends to regard material substances as reducible to their component parts and which is wedded to a mechanistic conception of matter that denies the reality of formal and final causes, hylemorphic dualism is non-reductionist, and regards human beings, like all material substances, as composites of form and matter.  (The view is non-reductionist despite regarding material substances as composed of form and matter, because it does not reduce them to form and matter.  A tree, for example, is a composite of a certain kind of form and matter, but the form and matter themselves cannot be made sense of apart from the tree of which they form metaphysical parts.  The analysis is holistic.) 

“Soul” on this view is just a technical term for the form of the living body.  And the view is dualist, not because it affirms the existence of the soul (plants and non-human animals have forms, and thus “souls,” but are purely material) but rather because it takes human beings to have certain special capacities that do not involve a material organ – namely, their intellectual capacities.  There is no “interaction problem” for hylemorphic dualism, though, because the soul is not (as it is for Descartes) a distinct substance which needs somehow to get into contact with a material substance via efficient causation; it is rather only a part of a complete substance – the formal cause of the substance, of which the matter composing the body is the material cause.  The relationship between soul and body is therefore not like that of two billiard balls, one of them ghostly, which have to find a way somehow to knock into one another.  It is more like the relationship between the shape of a triangle drawn on paper and the ink which has taken on the shape – two aspects of one thing, rather than two things.  Or it is like the relationship between the meaning of a word and the letters that make up the word, or the relationship between the pictorial content of a painting and the splotches of color that make up the painting.  (Probably most of my readers will be familiar with these ideas, but for those who are not, I have spelled them out in more detail in many other places, most fully in chapter 4 of Aquinas.)

One problem with many claims made for materialist reductionism, then, is that they rest on a conception of part-to-whole relations in material substances that is (on the A-T view) false across the board, not merely where the mind-brain relationship is concerned.  It is false to say that a tree is “nothing but” a collection of roots, trunk, leaves, sap, etc., even though a tree does of course have such parts.  It is false to say that a triangle is “nothing but” the ink particles that make up its lines, that a word is “nothing but” the material marks that comprise its tokens, or that a painting is “nothing but” the color patches that the painter has put on canvas, even though these objects also have the parts in question.  And it is false to say that the mind is “nothing but” a collection of neural processes, even though neural processes do indeed underlie all of our mental activities.  (You don’t have to be an A-T theorist to see this, by the way.  See M. R. Bennett and P. M. S. Hacker, Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience for a thorough critique of the conceptually sloppy and fallacious thinking that permeates much philosophical and “scientific” discussion about the brain.)

Now, since A-T is committed to a kind of dualism, albeit of the hylemorphic variety – and since, in particular, it holds that intellectual operations have no bodily organ – it might sound surprising that I should say that “neural processes do indeed underlie all of our mental activities.”  But that is indeed exactly what the hylemorphic dualist claims.  The reason is this.  Keep in mind first of all that A-T regards sensation and imagination – those “mental” phenomena we have in common with lower animals, and which are characterized by what contemporary philosophers call “qualia” – as corporeal or bodily in nature, and in that sense entirely material.  To be sure, A-T has a different conception of matter than materialists do.  For example, A-T does not hold that the only properties of matter are those described by the modern physicist.  But the relevant point for present purposes is that A-T does not regard sensation and imagination per se as involving any sort of immaterial organs or properties, anything that survives the death of the body, or anything that distinguishes us from the brutes.

What does distinguish us from the brutes and entails immateriality is our grasp of concepts or universal ideas.  One reason conceptual thought cannot be material is that concepts and the thoughts that feature them are abstract and universal, while material objects and processes are inherently concrete and particular; another is that concepts and the thoughts that feature them are (at least sometimes) exact, determinate, and unambiguous while material objects and processes are inherently inexact, indeterminate, and ambiguous when they are associated with conceptual content at all.   There are other reasons too.  (These are issues I have addressed many times.  For a more detailed treatment, see chapters 6 and 7 of Philosophy of Mind and, again, chapter 4 of Aquinas.  Some relevant blog posts of mine can be found here and here.  And see also James Ross’s article “Immaterial Aspects of Thought” and David Oderberg’s article “Concepts, Dualism, and the Human Intellect.”)

All the same, given that the soul of which intellect is one of the powers is of its nature oriented to the body, of which it is the form, the human intellect – unlike the intellects of angels, which are akin to Cartesian immaterial substances – requires bodily activity as a necessary condition of its ordinary operation, even if it is not a sufficient condition.  For one thing, it requires that there be sense organs to generate the sensations from which “phantasms” or mental images can be derived, from which in turn the intellect can abstract concepts.   But it also (and more to the present point) requires that there be organs capable of generating phantasms or images even after sensation has ceased; that is to say, it requires the neurological processes underlying imagination.  For even though our concept of a triangle (for example) is not and cannot be identified with any image of a triangle – such an image will always have features that the concept lacks, will strictly apply only to some triangles while the concept applies to all, might be vague in certain respects, and so forth – we are nevertheless incapable of entertaining the concept of a triangle without at the same time forming an image of some sort (a mental picture of a triangle, or of the look or sound of the word “triangle,” or whatever).  

A useful analogy would be Frege’s conception of the relationship between propositions and sentences.  A proposition cannot be identified with a sentence; for instance, the proposition that snow is white cannot be identified with the English sentence “Snow is white,” because someone who spoke German rather than English could express the very same proposition by using the sentence “Schnee ist weiss.”  But neither can it be identified with any other sentence or collection of sentences, since the proposition that snow is white was true before any language came into existence, and would remain true even if every language went out of existence.  In short, propositions are not linguistic entities.  All the same, they cannot be grasped by us except by means of linguistic entities.  The proposition that snow is white is not identical with “Snow is white” or “Schnee ist weiss,” but you cannot entertain it without entertaining either one of those sentences, or a sentence of some other language.  As Frege put it in his classic paper “The Thought”: “The thought, in itself immaterial, clothes itself in the material garment of a sentence and thereby becomes comprehensible to us.”  (Frege is using “thought” here to refer to a proposition, i.e. to the content of a “thought” in the mentalistic sense of the term.)

Now unlike Frege, Aristotle and Aquinas are not Platonic realists.  But they are moderate realists, and they would affirm something like Frege’s basic point.  Not only the propositions we grasp in having thoughts, but the thoughts themselves, are immaterial and distinct from any visual or auditory images we might form of particular sentences.  But we nevertheless find it impossible to entertain a proposition, and thus to have a thought, without also forming either images of sentences or some other imagery.  And in the view of Aristotle and Aquinas, all imagery is, as I have said, bodily and thus material.  As Aquinas concludes in Book I, chapter 2 of his Commentary on Aristotle’s De Anima, “since one cannot have imagery without a material organ, it seems clear that there can be no intellectual operation without the cooperation of matter” (as translated by Robert Brennan at p. 192 of his Thomistic Psychology).

Hence the A-T theorist affirms that there will always be some material correlate to normal human intellectual activity – not as a reluctant concession forced on the theory by the successes of modern neuroscience, but, on the contrary, precisely as a prediction of the A-T position as it has been understood from the beginning.  Were Aristotle and Aquinas to be made familiar with the sorts of neuroscientific discoveries frantically trumpeted by materialists as if they should be an embarrassment to the dualist, they would respond, with a shrug: “Of course.  Told you so.”

What A-T denies, again, is that the neurological level of description, however necessary, can ever suffice to account for intellectual activity.  There will always in principle be some slack between the neuroscientific facts and the facts about the content of our thoughts – something even materialists like W. V. Quine and Donald Davidson have affirmed on philosophical grounds, and psychologists like Kagan have affirmed on empirical grounds.  For A-T, the main reason, as I have said, has to do with the contrast between the determinate and universal character of conceptual thought and the particular and indeterminate nature of material processes – see Ross’s article, linked to above, for an especially powerful presentation of this point.

This, incidentally, is why the A-T theorist is untroubled by the neuroscientific evidence for the possibility in principle of “mindreading,” which sometimes gets attention in the popular press.  Invariably, we are told that at least certain kinds of mental states can be “read off” the neurological evidence with a degree of accuracy that is both surprisingly high and yet considerably less than absolute.  For A-T, this is exactly what we should expect.  If a “phantasm” or image is material, so that we can in principle determine neurologically that you are entertaining such-and-such phantasms, then the circumstances under which you are doing so might make it likely that you are also entertaining thoughts of the sort typically associated with such phantasms.  But likelihood is the most we can ever attain given the slack between phantasms or imagery on the one hand, and conceptual content on the other – especially when the conceptual content abstracts considerably from anything we can imagine, as it does when we are thinking about matters far removed from what we can directly experience.

The fact is that Aristotelian-Thomistic hylemorphic dualism is the theory most clearly consistent with all of the philosophical and neuroscientific evidence.  Cartesian dualism is not refuted by such evidence, but it has to resort to arguably ad hoc measures in order to avoid certain difficulties (the interaction problem, the fact that we are sometimes completely unconscious, and so forth).  And there is absolutely nothing in the neuroscientific evidence to support reductive versions of materialism over against either property dualism or A-T.  In arguments for preferring materialistic reductionism to these dualist alternatives, all the work is being done by metaphysical and methodological assumptions rather than by empirical evidence – by bogus appeals to Ockham’s razor, say, or to the illusion that “everything else has been explained in materialist terms.”  (I say that the appeal to Ockham’s razor is in this context bogus, because the main arguments for dualism are not probabilistic “explanatory hypotheses” to which considerations of parsimony are relevant; they are, instead, attempts at strict metaphysical demonstration.  See the posts on Churchland linked to above for more on this issue.  And I say that the claim that “everything else has been explained in materialist terms” is an illusion for reasons set out here, here, and in the posts on Jackson and Chomsky linked to above.) 

Of course, property dualists, like A-T theorists, perceive that the mental and neurological levels of description are much closer than Cartesian dualists suppose; while non-reductive materialists like Davidson at least perceive that they are not as close as reductive materialists suppose.  But each of these views still suffers from analogues of the problems facing the more extreme versions of dualism and materialism.  For example, they both face the problem of epiphenomenalism, which follows upon their common “mechanistic” insistence that all causation be understood on the model of efficient causation.  Hylemorphic dualism is the true mean between the extremes, a view that has the advantages of the others without their difficulties.

So why are its virtues not more widely recognized?  The usual reasons:  There is, first of all, the average contemporary academic philosopher’s unfamiliarity with what the ancients and medievals really thought.  Second, there is the dogmatic, ideological status that the early moderns’ “mechanistic” revolution – their denial of Aristotelian formal and final causes – has taken on in modern intellectual life, bolstered by the wholly unmerited prestige that revolution has inherited from the successes of empirical science.  (See The Last Superstition for the details.)  And third, there is the equally dogmatic, equally ideological naturalism that sustains itself on the backs of the first two factors.  As Burge has written in another context:

The flood of projects over the last two decades that attempt to fit mental causation or mental ontology into a ‘naturalistic picture of the world’ strike me as having more in common with political or religious ideology than with a philosophy that maintains perspective on the difference between what is known and what is speculated.  Materialism is not established, or even clearly supported, by science.  (“Mind-Body Causation and Explanatory Practice,” in John Heil and Alfred Mele, eds., Mental Causation, at p. 117)

225 comments:

  1. BTW my comments where directed at Anon 12:43 PM.

    I think Anon 12:59 is a New Atheist fundie. The "blah blah blah the Catholic Church made this stuff up to control the minds of peasants etc.....blah" is kind of a dead giveaway.

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  2. Ben,

    I am skeptical hylemorphism can be mated with naturalism too. But I think BDK should learn that on his own if that's the case.

    I'm not skeptical that it can be, precisely because "naturalism" can mean almost anything short of classical theism by now. If it's offensive to merely point that out, I'm sorry, but I'll have to be offensive on that point. And if Ed is correct in TLS, then a lot of what passes for "naturalism" or "materialism" is, when you get right down to it, actually neither. I do not consider either of those claims to be small points.

    My experience with BDK differs from yours, but I want to point something out. I've been polite and relaxed in my criticisms of BDK's reasoning and approach here, if pointed. One of us called the other's opinions "detritus", and it wasn't me. All I've said is that if he's going to read up on hylemorphism (just as with cartesian dualism, or neutral monism, or...) then he'd be better off doing so open-mindedly. Or at least, if he's committed to naturalism and will allow no alternatives such that hylemorphism must either be naturalized (slap the "naturalism" label on it and move on) or fought, then he should admit that openly as it will save everyone time and effort.

    Is there anything in that advice you think is radical?

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  3. Anon why not complain about hylemorphic dualism? 'Dualism' isn't particularly well defined, but I don't see your knickers in a knot over that. If the advocate has a clear position, focus on that. That's my point.

    You have brought this terminological quibble up so often, it leads nowhere and adds nothing substantive to any discussion we have ever had. It highlights why people find philosophy useless, why I left philosophy with my masters to get a PhD in science.

    You have made other good points before on other topics, you are great at finding weaknesses in arguments, great at being annoying when time calls for it. But on this topic I just don't have the patience to take it seriously. It's like saying calling something a science is meaningless because it isn't well defined (which you have come close to saying).


    I never said I was a blogging comment saint. I get testy. It's not about explaining, learning, all the time. Sometime's it's about putting a know-it-all in his place. E.g., Loftus.

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  4. Ben,

    My comments are getting deleted by blogger again. But: Who needs to relax? Between BDK and myself, only one of us called the other's thoughts "detritus" and it wasn't me. All I've advised is that if BDK is approaching the topic (and any other, really) with naturalism being non-negotiable, such that the only alternatives are either "call hylemorphism naturalism" or "attack hylemorphism", to admit this and save everyone time. Wouldn't you agree? Even smart people can and do set up stipulations like that.

    My other contribution here has been to point out the tremendous elasticity of "naturalism". I actually think that's beyond dispute. But more than that, Ed argues in TLS that a lot of what passes for "naturalism" or "materialism" is, as a matter of fact, Aristotileanism after all, or at least it implies A-T (and this ambiguity is where it draws its strength as an explanation.) I think it's important to keep this in mind, especially with the modern trend to make aspects of the mental part of the basic catalog of parts/aspects of the world and still to call the whole thing "naturalism" or even "physicalism".

    Is it impolite to suggest that some of what a person calls naturalism isn't actually naturalistic? If so, then what about calling naturalistic or materialistic that which other people say is neither (such as hylemorphism)? I think I've been fair and polite here, even if some others get animated.

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  5. Benji Y., actually im saying
    Aquinas' Arg. from Cont. (and one might the first two as well) are more or less sophisticated ...fallacies. Ad ignorantium, IIRC (google er). Possibilities but not necessary truths. Or ..metaphors.


    Those who go through some scholastic ..metaphysics wll discover (at least if sufficiently non-dogmatic) that apart from basic term logic (ie "felines are mammals") that it's conjecture and speculation ...put in a dogmatic form--(or worse, antiquated, primitive attempts at science--as with most of Aristotle's thoughts on ousia, however.....poetic they seem to some--and the "organic" aspects are hardly .....sunday school. ).

    Finally,Feser and his gang routinely overlook a basic point of empiricism: observation and thus one might ...epistemology. There is no epistemology for the
    ancient realists. It's....a divine order which is to be explained. But the ancients don't start by asking....are our perceptions of a supposed external world...like reliable,?? more or less. Even if one ...assumes they are, proving its' another matter. And IM an agnostic, not N.A. ergo you thought wrong ..

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  6. Vincent,

    This is probably my last comment in this thread, which is getting too long to keep up with, but some points. You say:

    (1) You say, "You write that an act of will can be purely formal in one respect, and not purely formal in another. I have to say that I find this utterly unintelligible. Either an act is purely formal or it's not. There is no middle ground." But by your own admission there is: you keep insisting that choices are purely formal and that waving your hand is not, or your arguments make no sense. But then the action of deliberately waving your hand is purely formal in some respect and not so in another. Unless you are claiming that there is no such action as deliberately waving your hand? Then we are very far from Thomas Aquinas, or, indeed, anything I find intelligible. The only question, then, is whether the purely formal component is separate initiating cause in a series of causes (pushing the neurons, as you put it) or if there is some alternative to this. To claim that there are not actions that are purely formal in some respect and material in another is to claim that art and craft and even deliberate physical motion are impossible, which is absurd.

    (2) Your leap from the will's use of other powers as instruments to interactionism is either a very great leap or an equivocation. The will and other powers, including those concerned with neural impulses, only interact in the sense that the actions of the latter are capable of being part of the action of the former: i.e., the will is a principle of action capable of including the actions of other powers. They don't interact in any sense associated with what we usually call interactionism, which requires that the things interacting be doing so on a par. The fact that the will moves as a (moved) prime mover makes this completely impossible. This is especially true given that the will is just a power itself: as I said before, what actually does the acting is the person, by means of the will and all its powers. I suppose by 'interactionism' you could just mean 'self-motion', i.e., that by which we cause ourselves to act. But if so, it's an extraordinarily misleading label for it. So maybe I just don't know what you mean by it.

    (3) On your response to the formal issue: "The "form" here is simply the result (my arm's going up in response to my will), so to say that the form determines the neuronal firings is like saying that my arm's going up determines the neuronal firings required to make it go up. That sounds back to front to me."

    What the will does is apply the form given to it by the practical intellect to the actions of all the other powers as an end. If the form were nothing but a result no actions could be premeditated. However, the will is the capability responsible for the form of the action in your sense; how else could the action have any sort of unity if there weren't a principle of unity for the whole action?

    Further, it is both absurd and question-begging to characterize the action as "my arm's going up in response to my will". Your arm's going up is not a response to your will; it's an act of will. Do you honestly think that your will is that far removed from your bodily actions? That instead of typing you just wish for something to be typed and your body happens to respond to the wish? That instead of speaking you just wish for "Hello" to be said and as it happens your body responds by flapping around enough to make the appropriate sounds? The only way that could be made sense of is on the assumption of substance dualism; and even Descartes realized that this is not how we actually experience our own actions. It reminds me of the joke about someone saying that he didn't punch the obnoxious stranger; he definitely wanted to, but it was really just his fist that did it.

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  7. Ben,

    My comments are getting deleted by blogger again. But: Who needs to relax? Between BDK and myself, only one of us called the other's thoughts "detritus" and it wasn't me. All I've advised is that if BDK is approaching the topic (and any other, really) with naturalism being non-negotiable, such that the only alternatives are either "call hylemorphism naturalism" or "attack hylemorphism", to admit this and save everyone time. Wouldn't you agree? Even smart people can and do set up stipulations like that.

    My other contribution here has been to point out the tremendous elasticity of "naturalism". I actually think that's beyond dispute. But more than that, Ed argues in TLS that a lot of what passes for "naturalism" or "materialism" is, as a matter of fact, Aristotileanism after all, or at least it implies A-T (and this ambiguity is where it draws its strength as an explanation.) I think it's important to keep this in mind, especially with the modern trend to make aspects of the mental part of the basic catalog of parts/aspects of the world and still to call the whole thing "naturalism" or even "physicalism".

    Is it impolite to suggest that some of what a person calls naturalism isn't actually naturalistic? If so, then what about calling naturalistic or materialistic that which other people say is neither (such as hylemorphism)? I think I've been fair and polite here, even if some others get animated.

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  8. Oops. Now I figured out the problem, I think. On we go.

    BDK,

    Anon why not complain about hylemorphic dualism? 'Dualism' isn't particularly well defined, but I don't see your knickers in a knot over that. If the advocate has a clear position, focus on that. That's my point.

    Dualism is ridiculously well-defined compared to naturalism. You easily grasped just what was meant by "immaterial" in this very thread, so what's the problem? Even cartesian dualists are usually very clear on what they're saying (despite people failing to get what they mean), along with others. You say to focus on a "clear position", and I do. I also focus on an unclear position, such as when someone starts throwing around words that advance an idea but ultimately don't mean much. I note again, you're the one who brought up "naturalism", and I simply pointed out flaws with it (flaws that you, in the past, conceded).

    Maybe it's a sore point for you, having that problem pointed out. But then, maybe the real response isn't to get upset, but to reflect on the emptiness of the word. Or how that emptiness reflects on the position itself.

    You have brought this terminological quibble up so often, it leads nowhere and adds nothing substantive to any discussion we have ever had. It highlights why people find philosophy useless, why I left philosophy with my masters to get a PhD in science.

    It's not a terminological quibble, BDK. It highlights what I consider to be a tremendously important flaw with modern thought, and claims of modern self-described naturalists. And again, I only bring it up when it's appropriate. I didn't walk in here and blindside you when you didn't say word one about naturalism. You started off with "Well this all seems compatible with naturalism..." and so on. You rolled out the red carpet.

    As for people finding philosophy useless, most people find many things useless. Even science. This isn't to praise philosophy (I think it's rife with problems, especially nowadays), but a shrug at the idea of other people having priorities. I could go on for pages about the weaknesses of modern philosophy.

    You have made other good points before on other topics, you are great at finding weaknesses in arguments, great at being annoying when time calls for it. But on this topic I just don't have the patience to take it seriously. It's like saying calling something a science is meaningless because it isn't well defined (which you have come close to saying).

    I'm also handsome, charming, and fantastic at Team Fortress 2 (not spy). But yes, I'm very annoying, thank you for noticing.

    I'm not the one who made "naturalism" so empty. Self-described naturalists did. And if scientists and philosophers continue to loosen the definition of science to the end that, say, metaphysics becomes science, then yes, science will losing meaning in the process too. People play fast and loose with that word too, often. I'm not the bad guy for pointing it out or trying to make them consistent.

    I never said I was a blogging comment saint. I get testy. It's not about explaining, learning, all the time. Sometime's it's about putting a know-it-all in his place. E.g., Loftus.

    Don't say his name. That's how you summon him from his lair.

    Nor am I a know-it-all. I'm merely a pain in the ass. I know my limitations.

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  9. Yeh I was right Anon 2:20 PM is defiantly a New Atheist Fundie.

    The mindless dogmatic belief in scientism and empiricism sans philosophy, is a dead give away.

    Also all New Atheists retreat to a vague agnosticism(I don't say there is no god I just lack god-belief) for argumentative purposes. It's a rhetorical device so they don't have to positively defend any hidden epistemological beliefs of their own. Like nondenominational Protestant fundies their intellectual cousins who argue with Catholics.

    If I one day ever lost my faith in God I could never believe their mind numbing nonsense. It's one thing to burn in Hell for eternity. But to be an self righteous hypocritical irrational idiot for all eternity as well....that just adds insult to injury.

    New Atheists, bah! Fundies without god-belief the lot of them.

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  10. @Anon 1:56 AM

    If you are going to argue with BDK you'd best pick a distinguishing handle so as not to confuse you with fundies who post as anon.

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  11. BenYachov: "It's a rhetorical device so they don't have to positively defend any hidden epistemological beliefs of their own. Like nondenominational Protestant fundies their intellectual cousins who argue with Catholics."

    As a "nondenominational Protestant fundy" (well sort of), I resent that comparison.

    I certainly hope I'm not an "intellectual cousin" to that!

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  12. Ben this anon has a pretty distinctive style I can usually recognize, but yes it would be nice if he/she/it posted with a consistent handle, sometimes it is hard to keep track.

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  13. >As a "nondenominational Protestant fundy" (well sort of), I resent that comparison.

    Sorry about that. But I assume if you Daniel are a person of good faith where you ever to have a debate about Catholic doctrine vs "what you believe Christian doctrine is" with me(not that I am offering a challenge mind you) you would have the decency to define what doctrinal presuppositions you hold too so as to make it a fair fight.

    >I certainly hope I'm not an "intellectual cousin" to that!

    If you are not Anti-Catholic but merely theologically contra Catholic I would assume you are not.

    Cheers.

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  14. You see Daniel one of my Pet Peeves from the past is arguing Catholic Doctrine with nondenominational people who say to me"I'm just a Christian! I'm not a Protestant! I just follow what the Bible says!". It's a pain because they attack Catholicism at will but don't give me anything to shoot at. At least the Lutheran or the Reformed or even the Assemblies of God person have objective doctrinal views I can critique & polemic.
    The fundie New Atheist who retreats to Agnosticism & defines Atheism solely in pure negative terms is the same in my view & twice as annoying.

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  15. Ben: "At least the Lutheran or the Reformed or even the Assemblies of God person have objective doctrinal views I can critique & polemic."

    Uh oh... I'm a non-denominational Christian precisely because I don't think ANY denomination has a corner on the truth. I've found problems with every denomination I've been involved with (including the Catholic church - in which I was raised.) So if you and I were to argue doctrine, the only thing I'd give you "to shoot at" would be my interpretation of the bible and church history - which is in a constant state of flux since I'm pretty sure I don't have a corner on the truth either.

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  16. >Uh oh... I'm a non-denominational Christian precisely because I don't think ANY denomination has a corner on the truth.

    Which is a problem for me because then you have no specifically defined belief system. It's at least at the functional level IMHO a relativist approch & that is a problem for me since Catholicism is not by nature relativistic. It's objective.

    >I've found problems with every denomination I've been involved with (including the Catholic church - in which I was raised.)

    The reason why there are problems in every denomination is because every denomination has pesky fallen human beings in it. But Jesus promised He would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all true. He made that promise to the Peter, the Apostles & the Church not to individuals who read Scripture by themselves.

    >So if you and I were to argue doctrine, the only thing I'd give you "to shoot at" would be my interpretation of the bible and church history - which is in a constant state of flux since I'm pretty sure I don't have a corner on the truth either.

    Here is something I want you to think & pray about. Jesus never ment us to reinvent Christianity from scratch in every generation. There must be a mechanism he instituted to manifest that truth He promised the Holy Spirit would lead us too. I say it's the Catholic Church. My wife is a former ex-Catholic turned Evangelical revert to Catholicism. She could tell you more about that. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them. Cheers & God Bless!

    PS keep learning Aquinas.

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  17. Ben: "Which is a problem for me because then you have no specifically defined belief system."

    But my belief system is based on a specifically defined document - the bible. This is how you must argue theology with evangelicals - via scripture. And not just singular scriptural interpretation - but a systematic theology that encompasses all of scripture in its proper context.

    "But Jesus promised He would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all true. He made that promise to the Peter, the Apostles & the Church not to individuals who read Scripture by themselves."

    That is an opinion which excludes "individuals who read Scripture by themselves" from "the Church".

    Jesus said that the Holy Spirit is given freely to all who ask: "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
    Luke 11:12-14

    Peter said that it would be given to all who repent and are baptized and to all who obey God: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
    Acts 2:37-39
    And...
    "We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
    Acts 5:31-33

    Paul said the Holy Spirit comes through Jesus (not through the Church, a priest, a denomination or any other thing): "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior"
    Titus 3:4-6

    I could go on (and on, and on, and...)

    So, I'm not concerned that I'm missing the Holy Spirit (in fact I know I'm not - since God opened my eyes so dramatically when I first believed, and he has continued to do so in the 30+ years since.)

    "The reason why there are problems in every denomination is because every denomination has pesky fallen human beings in it. "

    You got that right!

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  18. >But my belief system is based on a specifically defined document - the bible.

    I reply: So does mine. So claims every denomination on the face of Planet Earth. Who is correct?
    This sort of begs the question to me.

    >This is how you must argue theology with evangelicals - via scripture. And not justsingular scriptural interpretation - but a systematic theology that encompasses all of scripture in its proper context.

    I reply:That's common sense one of the Church Fathers (might have been Augustine my memory is
    fuzzy..middle age setting in) suggested when arguing with the Arian heretics since they
    refused to accept Nicea & Catholic Christians refused to accept the rogue Arian Council of Rimni that the only common ground between them was Scripture. The Catholic Church has already formulated a system

    >That is an opinion which excludes "individuals who read Scripture by themselves" from "the Church".

    Not really you can interpret Scripture all you want but you cannot formulate dogma & demand it be imposed other Christians and exclude them from the Church for dissenting against you(like every so called reformer did). Only those whom Jesus gave authority too (i.e. Peter, Paul the Apostles & the Church) can do this. Otherwise Matt 16:18, Matt 18 & 1 Tim 3:15 QUOTE"but in case
    I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in thehousehold of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.) have no meaning.

    As for Luke 11:12-14, Acts 2:37-39, Acts 5:31-33 and Titus 3:4-6 taken at face value all
    those texts clearly say God give us the Spirit to live the christian life, to have saving
    faith in Jesus and to obey him but nowhere do I read he gives individual Christians the power to authoritatively interpret the word formulate dogma then impose it on the Body of Christ. Only the church may do that.

    >So, I'm not concerned that I'm missing the Holy Spirit (in fact I know I'm not - since God opened my eyes so dramatically when I first believed, and he has continued to do so in the 30+ years since.)

    I reply:Catholics have never denied that Protestants & Eastern Orthodox have the Holy Spirit. Indeed Pope Alexander VIII condemned the Janenist heretics for suggesting otherwise. But they don't have the Power to authoritatively tell me what the Word of God means. That is a problem in the face of the Promise of Christ that the Spirit would lead us into all truth.

    Peace be with You.

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  19. Ben: "But they don't have the Power to authoritatively tell me what the Word of God means."

    No man does. Neither does any institution of man. The Jehovah's Witnesses have the same doctrine - that no one is able to privately interpret scripture - but in their case, only the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society can authoritatively say what the Word of God means.

    In both cases, the institution in question uses this "authority" to go beyond the Word of God and impose doctrines that have no basis in the bible.

    Tell me, for instance, where in the bible anyone ever is instructed to pray to dead people? You won't find any scripture to justify praying to saints - that's extra-biblical. Yet people accept it based on the "authority" claimed by an institution.

    But... where do you draw the line? At what point do you question human authority?

    Jesus said "you'll know them by their fruits". We are told by John to "test the spirits". The Berean Christians were applauded for "searching the scriptures daily" to check that the words of Paul were true.

    I refuse to put my trust in man. I do not need a human to fill the gap between me and God. Jesus himself is sufficient as an advocate between God and Man. My body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. No other is necessary, and, in fact, to insist otherwise is an insult to the blood and Spirit of Jesus. (IMHO)

    I don't mean to argue, and I hope you don't take anything I've said personally. God bless you on your journey to the truth.

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  20. Daniel just because let's say the Koran is a false Scripture doesn't logically mean there isn't a True Scripture like the Bible. In a like manner a False Church Authority (JW's, the Mormons, etc...) doesn't mean there is not a true one. Indeed it's the fact Protestants threw out the Church that created a vacuum the Mormons and the JW are trying to fill.

    >No man does. Neither does any Institution Of Man.

    Begs the question. I am not suggesting any IOM can but a God appointed Institution OTOH. After all God can protect St. John from error when writing his Gospel why not the Pope when he officially speaking as Pope to the whole Church on a matter of Faith or morals?

    >Tell me, for instance, where in the bible anyone ever is instructed to pray to dead people?

    The same place the Bible says we must follow the Bible alone interpreted privately sans the Church Authority....nowhere(not counting the books Luther threw out of the Old Testament). But that's not a problem for those of us who reject the man made human tradition of Luther but it does mean Sola Scriptura is false by it's own standards. Those aren't great fruits.

    >I don't mean to argue, and I hope you don't take anything I've said personally. God bless you on your journey to the truth.


    No worries guy.:-)

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  21. >The Berean Christians were applauded for "searching the scriptures daily" to check that the words of Paul were true.

    In a like manner my wife searched the Scripture compared Isaiah 22 to Matthew 16:18 & concluded the Papacy was clearly biblical. She also after reading (2 Thes 2:15 & 3:6) concluded that there was an Apostolic Tradition she must follow that is not to be confused with the Traditions of Men (like the stuff Luther, Calvin & Zwingli made up 1500 years after the fact).

    BTW denying Sola Scriptura is not to be equated logically with denying the authority of the Bible.

    Just like when Feser points out how denying Scientism is not to be equated with denying science.
    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/03/1174

    Scientism is the Sola Scriptura of the New Atheism. They believe Empirical Science alone sans philosophy is the only valid knowledge yet ironically this concept can't be shown to be true by empirical science hence it's not valid by it's own standards.

    Anyway pray about it. Take it too the Lord. I think he might be calling you home.

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  22. Ben,

    I think you should read the book "Tortured For Christ" by Richard Wurmbrand. (It's a very short book.)

    Wurmbrand was a Romanian Pastor (a Christian Jew) who spent 14 years in Communist prisons for his beliefs. He was brutally tortured and witnessed astounding miracles. (If you don't want to read it, at least go to Amazon and read the reviews.)


    Wurmbrand once wrote to his son Mihai: "Mihai, you know that in prison I had no Bible. I have forgotten it. I have forgotten all my theology. But these things I know for sure. First, there is a living God and he is our loving father. Second, Jesus Christ is the savior and bridegroom of our souls. Third, the Holy Spirit works in us to make us more and more Christ-like. Fourth, there exists beyond question an eternal life. And lastly, love is the best of ways. This is what I have learned in prison."

    This book had a profound influence on my thinking as a new believer. It showed me the insignificance of hair-splitting over doctrine. It showed me that "the Church" consists of all believers who have the Holy Spirit within them. That God decides who he gives his Spirit to. And that man's attempts at defining God are, like those of the Pharisees and Sadducees, pitiful and beggarly.

    If you can read that book, and still come away believing that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true church", then, well, all I can say is: your mind is made up.

    God bless.

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  23. >It showed me the insignificance of hairsplitting over doctrine.

    Would you still say that if a JW read this book & concluded it didn't matter if he continued to deny the full Deity of Jesus & while others affirmed it? After all it just hairsplitting doctrine. Also if doctrine isn't really important then Protestants should just accept Catholic doctrine and be done with it since it doesn't matter. Think about it.

    All Truth is God's truth & if he willed us to have it we should simply receive it.

    >If you can read that book, and still come away believing that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true church", then, well, all I can say is: your mind is made up.

    Well my intellect will not allow me to believe what is not logical and thus goes my mind. Besides my patron Saint, Aquinas is the one who after experiencing a Vision of God first hand stopped writing the Summa & proclaimed it "mere straw". So I am totally aware the experience of God first hand dwarfs any mere philosophical theological description of Him.
    But doctrines are His truths that He wills we should know since He promised to lead us to them via His Church "The Pillar and the Ground of Truth" which is protected by His Spirit. So we should merely accept the gift.

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  24. >That God decides who he gives his Spirit to.

    Yes, that was the whole point behind his Holiness Alexander VIII condemning the Jansenists who said otherwise.

    >And that man's attempts at defining God are, like those of the Pharisees and Sadducees, pitiful and beggarly.

    But that can be completely true as far as they go.

    You may have the last word.

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  25. "Would you still say that if a JW read this book & concluded it didn't matter if he continued to deny the full Deity of Jesus & while others affirmed it? After all it just hairsplitting doctrine. Also if doctrine isn't really important then Protestants should just accept Catholic doctrine and be done with it since it doesn't matter. Think about it."

    I did not say that doctrine doesn't matter.

    Did you read the reviews at Amazon?

    Would you at least grant me that?

    Thanks.

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