Wednesday, May 17, 2023

Capital punishment and the law of nations

What is the nature of Pope Francis’s 2018 change to the Catechism’s teaching on capital punishment?  Does it amount to a reversal of traditional teaching?  A development of doctrine that is consistent with that teaching?  A prudential judgment?  And if the latter, is assent to the new formulation binding on the faithful?  Barrett Turner offers an important analysis in his Nova et Vetera article “Pope Francis and the Death Penalty: A Conditional Advance of Justice in the Law of Nations.”  Let’s take a look.

The text of the revision, at paragraph 2267 of the Catechism, reads as follows:

Recourse to the death penalty on the part of legitimate authority, following a fair trial, was long considered an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good.

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes.  In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.  Lastly, more effective systems of detention have been developed, which ensure the due protection of citizens but, at the same time, do not definitively deprive the guilty of the possibility of redemption.

Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”, and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

End quote.  The crux of this passage is the statement that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person.”  Turner identifies three basic ways to interpret this.

Three interpretations

The first would be to read it as teaching that capital punishment is intrinsically immoral.  This would amount to an outright reversal of the traditional doctrine of the Church, and thus an endorsement of the position of “new natural law” theorists like Germain Grisez, John Finnis, and E. Christian Brugger, who have long argued for such a reversal.  Turner rejects this interpretation.  In a letter announcing the change to the Catechism, Cardinal Ladaria, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stated that the revision was not in contradiction with prior Church teaching and instead reflected a change in historical circumstances.  As Turner points out, he could not have said this if the revision had been intended as an endorsement of the view of Grisez, Finnis, and Brugger that past teaching was wrong and that the death penalty is intrinsically evil.

(It is worth noting that Finnis, despite his own view that capital punishment is intrinsically immoral, agreed that the revision did not change past teaching and was very critical of the reasoning behind it.  In any event, as Joseph Bessette and I show in our book By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed: A Catholic Defense of Capital Punishment, the arguments of Grisez, Finnis, and Brugger fail, and their position cannot be reconciled with Catholic orthodoxy.  Turner indicates that he agrees with us about this much.)

A second interpretation of the revision identified by Turner would be to regard it as an erroneous or at best imprecise prudential application of Catholic teaching.  As Turner points out, this interpretation cannot be dismissed out of hand, because the revision falls into the category of non-definitive acts of the ordinary Magisterium.  Moreover, if the revision is not intended to contradict past doctrinal principles and reflects instead a change in judgement about how to apply those principles to concrete circumstances, then this current judgement could, in the nature of the case, hardly be more definitive than the past judgments it replaces.

Toward the end of his essay, Turner identifies several respects in which Pope Francis’s teaching on this subject is indeed problematic.  However, the bulk of the essay is devoted instead to exploring a third possible interpretation of the revision to the Catechism.  On this interpretation, the revision, on the one hand, does not reflect any change in the fundamental doctrinal principles concerning capital punishment.  It remains Catholic teaching that the state has the right in principle to execute offenders for sufficiently grave offenses.  But on the other hand, the revision is more than merely a prudential application of these fundamental principles to concrete contemporary circumstances.  It is a prudential judgment of a deeper kind than that, one concerning what the Thomistic natural law tradition calls the ius gentium or “law of nations.”

The law of nations

The law of nations is a middle ground level of moral principles, coming in the between the fundamental and immutable principles of natural law on the one hand and the various local laws and customs of individual political communities on the other.  Its function is to mediate the application of the former to the latter.  Like local laws and customs, it is contingent and changeable.  Unlike them, it has universal application, and a higher degree of durability even if it falls short of strict immutability.  It is a kind of conventional wisdom about how best to apply the principles of natural law, and widely regarded as more or less settled even if not infallible.

Turner offers a few examples, including the practically universal agreement today that subjecting those defeated in a just war to servitude is not morally acceptable.  Even if such servitude were theoretically justifiable as punishment of those guilty of unjust aggression, the moral downside of such a practice is so grave that it is better simply to rule it out as beyond the pale in a decent society.  As Turner notes, a change in the law of nations (such as the change from permitting this kind of servitude to abolishing it once and for all) can reflect not merely a change in circumstances, but a deeper application of distinctively Christian moral principles.

Now, there is a further distinction to be drawn here, because as Turner also notes, there are, within the Thomistic natural law tradition, two ways that the ius gentium has been interpreted.  On the first interpretation, the law of nations is concerned with entirely man-made principles that are practically indispensable for applying the natural law.  The ius gentium is, on this view, essentially a matter of positive law rather than the discovery of anything strictly there in natural law itself.  Turner associates this interpretation with thinkers like Francisco de Vitoria, Domingo de Soto, Melchior Cano, and Domingo Banez.  On the second interpretation, the ius gentium goes a bit deeper than this, and involves the discovery of what justice strictly requires given certain civilizational conditions.  Turner associates this interpretation with thinkers like Jacques Maritain and Yves Simon.

The basic idea here (as I understand it) is that on the second interpretation, the principles of the ius gentium are absolutely binding given certain conditions; whereas on the first interpretation, they are never absolutely binding but can nevertheless be, under certain conditions, binding for all practical purposes (and to such an extent that it is as if they were absolutely binding).  Either way, as Turner points out, the ius gentium reflects a moral conventional wisdom that runs so deep that it can “feel” as binding as the natural law – even to educated people who know the difference, and certainly to the average person who does not.

Turner’s proposal, then, is that the revision to the Catechism reflects a prudential judgment about the law of nations, specifically.  In particular, it reflects the judgment that, in light of both the adequacy of contemporary non-lethal means of protecting society and the higher demands of the Gospel as applied to the law, the principle that resort to capital punishment is never justifiable in practice ought now to be regarded as part of the ius gentium.  Turner also indicates, though, that this is better understood in terms of the first interpretation of the ius gentium (i.e. the one associated with de Vitoria, de Soto, Cano, and Banez) rather than the second, stronger interpretation (i.e. the one associated with Maritain and Simon).  For the latter interpretation might give the impression that the Magisterium was teaching grave error prior to the 2018 revision.

Still a flawed prudential judgment?

As Turner notes, though this interpretation attributes to the revision a deeper alteration to the Church’s teaching than most prudential judgments involve, it still amounts to a kind of prudential judgment, and a non-definitive one that is arguably problematic in several respects.  All the same, it is, in his view, the most plausible understanding of what the revision intends –namely, something less radical than a doctrinal reversal or development, but more radical than other prudential judgments tend to be.

As an interpretation of the pope’s and the CDF’s intentions, Turner’s view seems to me interesting and plausible.  And it may be the only plausible way to read the statement that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person” in a manner that rescues it from the charge of doctrinal error.  For the appeal to “the inviolability and dignity of the person” gives the impression that the problem with capital punishment goes beyond mere contemporary circumstances – and thus involves some intrinsic evil.  The ius gentium interpretation opens the door to a middle ground reading, on which the problem does go beyond contemporary circumstances but nevertheless does not entail intrinsic evil.

But even if this is indeed the Catechism’s position, it doesn’t follow that that position is well-founded or unproblematic.  And in fact it is neither.  Turner himself notes several problems with it.  One of them is that the assumption that capital punishment is absolutely never needed today for the protection of society is undefended and open to serious objections.  Turner notes, for example, that without the deterrent effect of capital punishment, some prisoners are threats to the lives of fellow prisoners and of prison guards.  In a recent article, I discussed other ways in which the total abolition of capital punishment threatens innocent lives.  In that case, though, incorporation of such an abolition into the ius gentium could hardly facilitate a more just society.

A second problem noted by Turner is that Pope Francis’s frequently reiterated position that life sentences should be abolished partially undermines the rationale for the Catechism’s revision.  For the claim that capital punishment is unnecessary today for the protection of society rests on the idea that locking the most dangerous offenders up indefinitely provides an alternative way to incapacitate them.  (As I have argued elsewhere, there are also other serious problems with this particular teaching of the pope.)

A third problem identified by Turner concerns the revised Catechism’s appeal to “a new understanding… of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state.”  It is not clear exactly what is meant by this.  Is the claim that retributive justice is no longer among the considerations to be weighed when deciding what punishments are suitable?  Turner notes that this would contradict the traditional teaching of the Church – and as Joe Bessette and I show in our book, the teaching that retributive justice is among the purposes of punishment is also irreformable.

It is worth adding that Pope Pius XII, who taught more systematically and at much greater length about the topic of punishment and criminal justice than any other pope, explicitly addressed the view that modern times call for a new understanding of punishment that deemphasizes retribution and emphasizes instead the protection of society and rehabilitation.  And he explicitly rejected this position as contrary to scripture and the traditional teaching of the Church.  See pp. 128-34 of By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed, which quotes extensively from the relevant documents. 

If the revision of the Catechism is taking the opposite view, we would have a contradiction between Pius XII’s teaching and Francis’s teaching.  But Pius XII’s teaching is very clear, is expounded and defended in detail, and is firmly grounded in scripture and tradition.  But Francis’s teaching on the purposes of punishment – if indeed that teaching is meant entirely to abandon retributive justice in favor of rehabilitation and the protection of society (which is not obvious) – is not clearly expressed, is merely asserted rather than supported with arguments, and is difficult to reconcile with scripture and tradition. 

These problems, which Turner himself acknowledges, are serious enough.  But there are yet other grave problems with the view that the ius gentium should now be understood as absolutely ruling out the death penalty in practice.  The revision to the Catechism says that “today… there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person” rules out such a penalty.  But is contemporary opposition to capital punishment in fact generally motivated by an increased awareness of human dignity?  Does it reflect moral common ground between the Catholic faith and the secular world?

Some of the most influential contemporary Catholic opponents of capital punishment themselves acknowledge that that is the opposite of the truth.  For example, Finnis warns:

We should be under no illusions: the organs of the European Council, the United Nations, and the European Union, unconcerned to exclude from human society all intent to kill, and disdainful of God’s lordship over life and death, are devoted to the opaque language of dignity. They deploy it constantly, bureaucratically, to promote their rejection of capital punishment but equally their indulgence towards euthanasia, suicide, and the many forms of anti-marital sex, and the radically unjust promotion of gender fluidity and same-sex parodies of marriage.  And the educational institutions and programs they promote are nearly unanimous in denying or ignoring the justice of retribution, with its attention to the continuing and often justly decisive relevance of past deeds to present entitlement and conduct, attention and relevance essential to the truth of the Christian faith.

Similarly, Cardinal Avery Dulles, who supported the abolition of the death penalty, acknowledged that most opposition to capital punishment today reflects, not deeper moral insight but a move away from Christian morality:

Many governments in Europe and elsewhere have eliminated the death penalty in the twentieth century, often against the protests of religious believers.  While this change may be viewed as moral progress, it is probably due, in part, to the evaporation of the sense of sin, guilt, and retributive justice, all of which are essential to biblical religion and Catholic faith.  The abolition of the death penalty in formerly Christian countries may owe more to secular humanism than to deeper penetration into the gospel.

Arguments from the progress of ethical consciousness have been used to promote a number of alleged human rights that the Catholic Church consistently rejects in the name of Scripture and tradition.  The magisterium appeals to these authorities as grounds for repudiating divorce, abortion, homosexual relations, and the ordination of women to the priesthood.  If the Church feels herself bound by Scripture and tradition in these other areas, it seems inconsistent for Catholics to proclaim a “moral revolution” on the issue of capital punishment.

End quote.  Nor is the connection between opposition to capital punishment and hostility to Catholic morality a recent phenomenon.  As Brugger acknowledges, when the modern movement to abolish capital punishment got started among European intellectuals two centuries ago, it was closely associated with various doctrines at odds with Catholicism, such as utilitarianism and skepticism about the afterlife.  Hence, he writes:

The early organized public efforts to eliminate (or limit, with a view to eliminating) capital punishment, at least for ordinary or “lesser” crimes, were almost exclusively secular phenomena.  Early spokesman for the cause include Montesquieu, Voltaire, Robespierre, and Diderot in France, Hume and Bentham in Britain, and Fichte in Germany – all harsh critics of the Catholic Church and its orthodox teaching… [The] social movement to abolish capital punishment… became associated in the minds of many Catholic thinkers with opposition to orthodox belief and to the Church. (Capital Punishment and Roman Catholic Moral Tradition, pp. 130-31)

In short, while the increase in opposition to the death penalty in modern society does indeed reflect a moral revolution, it is precisely a revolution away from the Catholic understanding of human dignity, not a deeper appreciation of it.

Now, the revision to the Catechism offers three justifications for the change: (a) “an increasing awareness [of] the dignity of the person,” (b) “a new understanding… of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state,” and (c) “more effective systems of detention… which ensure the due protection of citizens” without recourse to capital punishment.  But as we have just seen, all three of these are seriously problematic. 

And there is yet another serious problem with the revision.  Again, the statement that “the death penalty… is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person” seems, considered in isolation, to be saying that capital punishment is intrinsically evil.  To be sure, it need not be read that way, and there are good arguments for not reading it that way.  But it takes theological learning and analytical skill to see that.  To the average person, the statement seems to be lumping capital punishment in with abortion, euthanasia, and murder in general.  Much of the other recent rhetoric of popes and bishops has the same effect.  And while popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI at least occasionally qualified these statements by explicitly acknowledging that capital punishment is not intrinsically evil, Francis does not do so.  Indeed, he and other bishops have ignored pleas for clarification.

The problem with this is that the Church now thus appears to many people to be contradicting the teaching of scripture and of her own past Magisterium.  For orthodox believers, this can cause a crisis of faith.  Meanwhile, heterodox Catholics are emboldened, hopeful that a change in teaching on capital punishment will open the way to changes to other traditional teachings.  Again, the revision does not actually have the implications that orthodox believers fear and that the heterodox welcome.  But Catholics should not have to have special theological expertise in order to see this.  For a magisterial document to require such expertise in order to see its continuity with scripture and tradition is thus a serious defect.

As I have discussed in detail elsewhere, the CDF instruction Donum Veritatis and the tradition of the Church acknowledge that non-definitive acts of the Magisterium can sometimes be defective in this way, and may, accordingly, be met with respectful criticism.  I submit that the revision to the Catechism provides as clear an example as there has ever been of a case where the norms of Donum Veritatis apply.

A binding prudential judgment?

There is one further question to address.  Again, Turner takes the revision to amount to a non-definitive prudential judgement, and acknowledges that it is problematic.  Now, some prudential judgments require only respectful consideration by the faithful, but neither assent nor obedience.  Cardinal Ratzinger, acting as head of CDF, stated in a 2004 memorandum that papal opposition to capital punishment was an example of such a prudential judgment.  But as Cardinal Dulles noted in his book Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, there can also be prudential judgments which “require external conformity in behavior, [even if they] do not demand internal assent” (p. 94).  He gives as an example past Vatican instructions to theologians concerning which methods of biblical exegesis were permissible.  Some such restrictions, says Dulles, were excessive and later relaxed.  But though some theologians even at the time may have had good reasons for disagreeing with the restrictions, they were nevertheless obligated to abide by them in their published work.  (For a detailed treatment of the different kinds of magisterial statement and their levels of binding force, see pp. 144-57 of By Man Shall His Blood Be Shed.)

Now, some might argue that even if the revision to the Catechism is flawed, and even if Catholics are permitted respectfully to raise criticisms of it, it nevertheless requires “external conformity in behavior” (to borrow Dulles’s phrase).  In particular, it might be claimed that the permission to support the actual use of capital punishment that Cardinal Ratzinger affirmed in the 2004 memo has now been rescinded.  Hence, it might be argued, every Catholic public official must now work to implement a policy of abolition of capital punishment, even if he is at liberty to think this policy mistaken.

It seems this might be Turner’s view, though this is unclear.  He notes that the precepts of the ius gentium, though they lack the absolutely binding character of the precepts of natural law, are nevertheless “existentially indistinguishable from the precepts of the natural law to the common person in any given age” (p. 1047).  That is to say, in practice they are generally perceived as having the force of natural law, even if strictly speaking they do not.  And Turner later goes on to say that with respect to the abolition of capital punishment, the pope “is within his office to make such a prudential judgment and to enshrine that judgment in the Catechism as existentially binding” (p. 1049).  This characterization of the revision as “existentially binding” seems to imply that Catholics are obligated to conform their behavior to it even if they may raise legitimate questions about it – though again, Turner does not say this in so many words.

In any event, there is a serious problem with this interpretation, which I spelled out in a recent article.  The Catechism, in line with the traditional teaching of the Church, states that war can be justifiable when necessary to protect citizens against violent aggression.  But it also states that the responsibility for making a prudential judgment about when the criteria for just war are actually met lies with public authorities.  The reason is that it is public authorities (and not churchmen) who have the duty under natural law to protect citizens, and it is public authorities (and not churchmen) who have the relevant expertise concerning how best to do this.

Now, when addressing capital punishment, the Catechism – both in the versions promulgated by Pope St. John Paul II and in Pope Francis’s revision – states that whether the death penalty is ever justifiable depends on whether it is necessary in order to protect society.  The difference is that John Paul thought it was only rarely necessary, and Francis thinks it is never necessary.  But as in the case of war, it is public authorities (and not churchmen) who have the duty to protect citizens from violent aggressors, and public authorities (and not churchmen) who have the relevant expertise.  Hence, in the nature of the case, it is hard to see how the Church could make a binding prudential judgment where resort to capital punishment is concerned, any more than she could make a binding prudential judgment where the application of just war principles is concerned.  In the one case as in the other, to do so would be to usurp the responsibility that the natural law puts on public authorities, not on the Church.

An attempt to bind public authorities to abolishing capital punishment thus smacks of a kind of clericalism – in particular, of an interference of the Church with the legitimate functions of the state, which the Church has otherwise been moving away from in the period since Vatican II.  The Church no longer calls upon the assistance of the state to safeguard people’s souls (since, it is said, the state has no competence in that area).  What sense does it make, then, for the Church to interfere with the state’s right to protect people’s bodies (where, the Church says, the state does have competence)? 

Furthermore, the revision to the Catechism has been presented as just an extension of what John Paul II already taught and of his reasons for teaching it (such as the adequacy of non-lethal means of protecting society and a better understanding of human dignity).  The difference, again, is just that John Paul thought the death penalty was rarely if ever needed and Francis thinks that it never is.  But as Ratzinger’s 2004 memo makes clear, John Paul II’s teaching was not of such a nature that Catholics were obligated to behave in accordance with it.  So, how can Francis’s teaching, which differs from John Paul’s in degree but not in kind, impose any stricter obligation?

For these reasons, then, it seems to me that the claim that Catholics are obligated to show the revision “external conformity in behavior” is theologically problematic.  All the same, this is, of course, not my call to make.  Like the other difficulties I’ve described, it is ultimately a matter for the Magisterium of the Church to clarify.  I suspect we will have to wait for a future pontificate before that happens.

99 comments:

  1. OP,
    "This would amount to an outright reversal of the traditional doctrine of the Church"
    Given the long list of errors, including the long list of apologies for errors of "the" Church, a reversal of doctrine seems likely to be a very positive turn of events.

    While the principle of a life for a life may seem fair, we have proven ourselves as a society, as a nation, as a system of laws, to be in point of fact incompetent to administer the death penalty.

    False witnesses, malicious prosecutions, corrupt policing, incompetent or negligent defense, and inadequate standards of evidence have in point of fact produced false conviction after false conviction after false conviction.

    Imagine the living hell of being an innocent person on death row.

    Quite apart from any religious, moral, or ethical arguments regarding the ideal of the death penalty, the pragmatic fact is that our criminal justice system is incompetent and not up to the task of administering the death penalty.

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    1. This argument would apply to all forms of punishment as well as capital punishment. Unless you want to promote anarchy, you have to be willing to accept the fact that sometimes mistakes will be made when administering justice. As long as they are in fact mistakes, and due care is taken to avoid mistakes, we can have confidence that the benefits to society will outweigh the unintended consequences.

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    2. "This argument would apply to all forms of punishment as well as capital punishment."
      No, because capital punishment is the only punishment that cannot be discontinued.

      "Unless you want to promote anarchy, you have to be willing to accept the fact that sometimes mistakes will be made when administering justice."
      No, there are alternatives to acquiescence to injustice.

      We need a much higher standard of evidence in the penalty phase of a capital case, not merely beyond a reasonable doubt, rather, to a natural certainty.

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    3. SP:

      That is, factually, untrue.

      It has been well known, as least since 2000, that the claims of the "innocent"/"exonerated" from death row have a fraud/error rate of 71-83%, meaning:

      That, within 50 years of the most intense scrutiny, the US death penalty has a factually guilt accuracy rate of 99.6%, with the 0.4% factually innocent convicted being released, very likely the most accurate system in the world

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    4. SP:

      That is untrue.

      It has been well known, since 2000, that the alleged "innocent"/"exonerated", from death row, in the US, has a 71-83% error/fraud rate, depending upon review.

      That equates to a 99.6% accuracy rate in convicting the factually guilty in death penalty cases, with the 0.4% factually innocent, all being released, very likely, the most accurate sanction in the world, by conviction accuracy and finding and freeing the factually innocent.

      That should come as no surprise, as the death penalty has, by far, the greatest of due process protections.

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  2. I am just a lapsed Catholic atheist, so my views will be rejected by many on here. It just seems to me that Professor Feser is very eager for people to be put to death. And it seems to me that Professor Feser thinks that his take on Catholic orthodoxy is more valid than that of the reigning Pope.

    My views of course will be rejected by many on here. I simply avail myself of the opportunity to suggest that others may have more insight into the Catholic system.

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    1. ficino4ml,

      Why would anyone reject your views when all you expressed were opinions about the host without engaging his arguments. I do wonder about the motivation for doing that though.

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    2. What exact part of Dr. Feser's argument that the change in the catechism is prudential in nature made you think that, as you put it, "Professor Feser is very eager for people to be put to death"? I honestly don't understand.

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    3. I will admit that it is a few years since reading his book, but from my memory, it is not that Feser is "very eager" for people to be put to death, but that he is very eager for
      (1) people to properly respect the teaching from the Bible and Tradition in weighing what to say about it now; and
      (2) IF there are cases, today, where - according to the teaching of the Bible and Tradition properly respected - states ought to put specific criminals to death because that best conforms to the good properly sought, then they should do so, and those states should not be blocked from rightly pursuing the good by badly crafted modern teaching and badly considered prudential analyses. Eager to see truth known and right action taken.

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  3. "Catholics should not have to have special theological expertise in order to see this. For a magisterial document to require such expertise in order to see its continuity with scripture and tradition is thus a serious defect."... Apart from the specific issue of the death penalty, this quote captures the larger problem for the faith.
    When ordinary lay people cannot nuance their way through to seeing consistency of teaching, three whole concept of sure guidance from the church and preservation from error is imperiled.
    How can Joe schmoe be certain that any other teaching of the catechism could not be changed?

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    1. The same way "Joe Schmoe" can be "certain" about scientific findings, I guess.

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  4. The words ' the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person' have a clear enough meaning, and it is embarrassing to witness its supporters wriggling about trying to interpret them otherwise. Once again, the meaning of words is stretched to mean what you want them to. In actual fact of course, Catholicism has been falsified yet again

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    1. If words could be divorced from the intention and history of the person uttering them, you might have something to go on here. Perhaps, just perhaps, a man known for hyperbole and imprecision in language didn't magically start intending to be exceedingly theologically precise in this context. And that would be enough to get Ed's argument off the ground.

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    2. Glad to hear that the inviolability and dignity of the person is simply a hyperbole, because in that case, some cases of abortion, suicide or euthanasia are acceptble after all.

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    3. That human beings have a basic level of inviolable dignity is not hyperbole.

      The claim, coming from the mouth (or pen) of Pope Francis, that the death penalty is a direct and exceptionless affront to said dignity as such very well might be.

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    4. By that logic, the claim, coming form Catholic teaching, that e.g. euthanasia is a direct and exceptionless affront of said dignity very well might be hyperbole too.

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    5. Man, are we really doing this?

      Have we really sunk down to the level of "Well you say Pope Francis is possibly being hyperbolic or imprecise, so maybe any moral teaching the Church has consistently taught is also hyperbolic or imprecise!"

      Look, as I mentioned to FreeThinker, Pope Francis is rather (in)famous for his rhetorical flair and his emphatic statements. I'm sure he, in some sense, genuinely means what he inserted into the Catechism. But that he genuinely means it doesn't mean he genuinely means it as asserting the particular proposition of "The death penalty is intrinsically evil, contrary to what the Church has consistently taught prior to this time."

      To say he might be imprecise is to say that, if you pressed him on what he meant, there's a reasonable case he wouldn't mean that. He has, after all and in other contexts, resisted the attempts to paint him as strongly breaking with tradition.

      All this is to say, the idea that Pope Francis was imprecise inasmuch as he needn't be asserting what a superficially plausible reading would have him asserting is, I think plausible enough to at least get Ed's argument going.

      The idea that the Church, for two thousand years, in its documents and teachers, has consistently hyperbolized on such issues as you listed is...well it's ludicrous frankly. There are orders of magnitude of difference between the case supporting an instance of imprecision from Pope Francis that is in character, with chronic imprecision from many people, across many centuries, for many of whom it is not in character.

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    6. There is nothing about a 'basic' level of invoiable dignity on thé CCC.
      Human dignity is absolute and not confined to innocent people. If it were, it would not be the basis for a condemnation of euthanasie and suiicide because there is no innocent person Involved.

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    7. Human dignity is absolute and not confined to innocent people.

      There is more than one "dignity" in humans. In fact, there is more than one KIND of dignity in humans. To be complete, each perfection in a human being represents a dignity, and each kind of perfection represents a kind of dignity. But those perfections, and dignities, that are most properly referred to as "dignity" have to do with the perfections of his immortal soul in its proper human orientation to his final end, and those perfections are called the virtues, insofar as they align the will, and they are that in virtue of which a man is said to be "a good man" simply speaking, rather than he might be said to be "a good X man", e.g. a good horseman, a good carpentry man, a good manager man, (which are "good man" in qualified senses).

      All men, by having human nature, have intrinsic to their being, the orientation toward the knowledge and love of God as our final end. Since this is in our nature, "to be human" is to have that end, and so all humans have THAT dignity. It is a "dignity of potential" in that it represents a higher reality than that of animals, by the mere fact of being oriented toward a higher kind of end (indeed, a supernatural end).

      But not all men achieve that end: those who have, already, achieved it by attaining moral perfection, have not only the orientation but the fulfillment of the orientation, and so in them the dignity of potential has been met and satisfied, providing a dignity of completion in the supernatural end. Not all men have that dignity.

      Before our death, we can be either in a (typically imperfect) state of conformance with that end, by being in a state of (sanctifying) grace and having the love of God as our principal love, or we can be in a state of contradiction with that end by being in a state of sin and repudiation of God as our principal love (i.e. loving something else as our principal love). Someone who is human but who loves pleasure, or power, or money as his principal love, obviously retains the dignity of being ordered toward God as his principal end (putting him above the animals and plants), without having the dignity of fulfilling that end.

      To speak as if there is only one possible sense of "dignity" is to confuse everything about this issue.

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  5. Is this really the biggest problem in the wold today?
    Judging from the amount of paper Ed Feser has already spent on the death penalty, one would certainly get the impression that it is.
    Poverty? Global warming? Wars? Polarisation?
    No, let's focus on the death penalty instead.

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    1. This goes for ficino4ml too, but Ed has mentioned on multiple occasions exactly why he writes so prolifically on the death penalty, and it has nothing to do with the death penalty being the most important social issue of our day.

      10 points if you can cite the reason he usually gives.

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    2. ccmnac

      Reason why Feser expends such time and effort on this issue - it is a desperate and wholey unconvincing attempt to shore up his religion and to convince the faithful that it has not been falsified, with all time honoured teachings now up for grabs.

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    3. ccmxc

      The reason he usually gives is that traditional teachings cannot be reversed because otherwise the Catholic Church would not be able to teach infallibly.
      But it is still a fact that there are far more important issues, and that, in my humble opinion, his attention for the death penalty is completely out of proportion.
      BTW, I have never claimed that Feser is eager for people to be put to death.

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    4. Close enough.

      For those following at home, the reason Ed focuses on the death penalty is due *primarily* to the theological implications of the discussion for the Church's teaching authority. While he agrees with the use of the death penalty as such, that isn't what predominantly motivates the project, and he's been pretty clear about this throughout.

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    5. It is hard to see what all the fuss is about. The Catholic teaching on the death penalty cannot plausibly be regarded as central to the faith and so any revision of this teaching seems unproblematic.

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    6. While the particular teaching of the Church, on whether the DP is licit to use on those convicted of murder (and even more grave crimes), may not be, all by itself, a central teaching, there is no doubt that liberals and the heretical-minded are already using the seeming "change in Church teaching" on the DP to claim that the Church can just as easily change its teaching on sodomy, fornication, contraception, marriage, and whether women can be priests - and other things as well. Thus nothing prevents it from being a "small issue" that is the thin edge of the wedge to more important issues.

      Perhaps more significantly: while nobody should pretend that Pontius Pilate was being just when he condemned to torture and death a man that he himself proclaimed to be innocent, the fundamental aspect of the retributive purpose for which Christ willingly offered himself as a sacrifice certainly is central to the faith. Nobody should think that an outright attack on the retributive aspect of punishment, as such, has no critical meaning to the faith as a whole. It has a great deal of meaning.

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    7. @Tony

      If Pope Pius XII's position that justice is always and fundamentally retributive is a de fide doctrine of the Church, then that means all Catholics are bound under pain of heresy to accept the penal substitution theory of atonement of Jesus Christ's death.

      "Till on that cross as Jesus died, \
      The wrath of God was satisfied; \
      For ev’ry sin on him was laid — \
      Here in the death of Christ I live." - "In Christ Alone" by Keith Getty and Stuart Townend

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    8. I haven't the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Do you have a particular passage of Pius XII you are using?

      As I understand it: it isn't true that justice is fundamentally retributive, but perhaps you could say that penal justice is fundamentally retributive. At least, when Pope St. John Paul II described it in the Catechism, he said that this is the primary end of punishment. "Primary end" is typically "fundamental".

      That said, it isn't the Catholic view of Christ's salvific act that it is penal substitutionary atonement. We do say Christ's act was substitutionary, and that it was atonement (i.e. a "making one"), but we don't add in "penal" to those to make a single concept of penal substitutionary atonement. Christ did suffer for us so that we could escape the suffering of hell, but he did not suffer it qua punishment as such, since he was wholly innocent. He atoned by his perfect obedience to the Father in perfect love, being always united to the Father. That's the essential aspect of what it is to atone, a making one ("at one") of two who had been separated.

      There is nothing wrong with saying that we, when we sin, are due a penal suffering, and saying that Christ suffered for us to redeem us from our sins, but that doesn't require us to say that Christ's suffering constituted a penal replacement for our penal suffering. They are not equivalent. If you are trying to import the concept of retributive penalty into Christ's redemptive act, you have to assume that "penal" applies to Christ merely because it applies to us, and that's not sound.

      In my comments above, I was unfortunately obscure and perhaps mis-stated the concepts: OUR due punishment for sin is retributive, and Christ's atonement relieves us of that burden. We cannot understand our escape from the penalty of sin without understanding the penalty of sin first.

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  6. The second paragraph of the papal language bothers me. This is not my view of criminals. Their dignity, is forfeit with commission of the crime, in my view. Imprisonment only prevents recidivism. Other costs to society are bad investments.

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  7. “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”

    I wonder. Is the death penalty *necessarily* an attack on the dignity of the human person, or is it an attack on the dignity of the human person in part or in whole because secular society has completely lost sight of the fact that the human person is in fact inviolable and possessing dignity?

    I don’t think I’m being anachronistic when I say it’s hard to conceive of a time when people had a generally weaker understanding of the value of the human person as the one which today defines the extinguishing of human life in abortion and euthanasia as a good for reasons of reduction in suffering or the right to bodily autonomy and insists these ghastly procedures are “medicine.”

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    1. If it is so that secular society has completely lost sight of the fact that the human person is in fact inviolable and possessing dignity, that is all the more reason to oppose the death penalty.
      As far as I know, the pope is not an advocate of euthanasia or abortion, so he seems to be pretty consistent in his thinking on this.
      I really don't understand how somebody who is totally opposed to euthanasia and abortion and suicide can be pro capital punishment.
      You are either pro life or you aren't.

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    2. @Walter. Really? I'm opposed to the death penalty as well, but there's no inconsistency here at all. One can be opposed to slavery and endorse prisons. If you break the law, you forfeit a measure of liberty (to varying degrees depending on the level of offense). Similarly, one can be opposed to taking innocent life and endorse killing the guilty.

      Of course, this has been observed numerous times here, so where's the inconsistency?

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    3. Maybe I should have been a little bit more precise. I can understand how somebody who is totally opposed to euthanasia and abortion and suicide can be pro capital punishment.
      Somebody might indeed think that killing an innocent person is wrong but killing a guilty one isn't always wrong.
      The problem is the principle behind this. If the starting principle is that "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end" (article 2258 of the CCC) then abortion, euthanasia, suicide and the death penalty cannot possibly be justified.

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    4. Walter,

      If the starting principle is that "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God...then abortion, euthanasia, suicide and the death penalty cannot possibly be justified.

      The Catechism also allows for a Just War and self defense which also involves justly killing other people.

      It's always better to read a document if full to understand the context and qualifications to any particular passage one cites as support to one's position.

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    5. bmiller

      Just war and self defense do not necessarily Involve intentional killing.
      Anyway, Ingave not claimed there aren't more inconsistencies in the CCC.
      Thank you for pointing them out.




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    6. Walter,

      You're welcome. And thank you for showing me how you do your exegesis.

      A frequent poster here has the theory that atheists think the same as fundamentalists. I see where he's coming from.

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    7. There isn't much point to pursuing this issue with Walter. He has a fine mind and uses it with attention to detail, but on this particular issue he believes that the Catholic Church should mean by "sacred" the very same thing that he means by sacred, or stop making the claim that human life is sacred. He rejects the idea that the Catholic Church is allowed to teach, for her own people, that in her uses of the term, human life is sacred in a way that allows for different kinds of handling for different situations, including an absolute prohibition on targeted killing of the innocent but a qualified prohibition on killing the guilty.

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    8. Walter,

      Also it seems you only partially quoted the CCC:

      ""Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an INNOCENT human being."

      Interesting that you left out the part of "the principle behind this." that allows for things like a just war, self defense and the death penalty. Was that on purpose?

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    9. bmiller

      The bold part I left out is exactly the inconsistency I was talking about.
      I know the CCC says this, but it is a direct contradiction with the first part of the article.
      For it not to be a contradiction, thye first part should say, "Innocent human life is sacred...".
      But it doesn't say so.

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    10. Tony

      I knwo you do not want to discuss this issue with me, but just one clarification. By "sacred" I simply mean what the CCC understands under sacred. It is in the very CCC article I quoted. "Because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end". So, it is not what I mean by it.

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    11. Walter,

      The bold part I left out is exactly the inconsistency I was talking about.

      Then why did you leave it out? Was that on purpose?

      For it not to be a contradiction, thye first part should say, "Innocent human life is sacred...".
      But it doesn't say so.


      It's certainly not a contradiction nor anymore inconsistent than if I were to say:
      "You should never drive through a red light, unless a police officer tells you to."

      You can explain how the law is inconsistent/contradictory to the judge and then go pay your fine.

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    12. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end:

      And if God himself tells the Israelites concerning a murderer "take him from my altar and put him to death", is the consequent action of the Israelites carrying out the DP to be understood as "obeying God", or is it "defying God" because "God alone is the Lord of life"?

      What you insist on calling an inconsistency the Church is calling a clarification of seemingly inconsistent parts of revelation, into one coherent whole. You may not LIKE that way of handling seemingly inconsistent parts of revelation, but you can hardly insist upon your preferred (non-Christian) paradigm of how to interpret Christian revelation, over that of Christians.

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    13. Tony

      Yes, God alone can order you to put someone to death.
      Has God alone ordered you to do so? Has He ordered any human judge to do so?
      The death penalty can only be adfmissible under a direct order from God. I am sure the pope would agree that if God explicitly orders the death of a certain person, then not only are we allowed to put that person to death, we are obligated to do so.

      bmiller

      Yes, I left it out on purpose because I wanted to stress the first part, which is what this is all about.
      If somebody agrees with the fist part, He cannot possibly support the death penalty, and there is no way this first part can be read as only concerning innocent human beings.

      As for your example, "unless a police officer tells you to" is the equivalent of "unless God tells you to". See my reply to Tony.

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    14. Walter,

      Yes, I left it out on purpose because I wanted to stress the first part, which is what this is all about.

      So you removed the context that you thought conflicted with your opinion. That is misleading at the least.

      there is no way this first part can be read as only concerning innocent human beings.

      Unless you read the second part and therefore the entire thing. Something that someone who trusted what you "quoted" would have missed.

      See my reply to Tony.

      Right. It would be bad enough if you took only 1 particular paragraph from the CCC and claimed any other paragraph that aimed to qualify or clarify that paragraph were actually opposed to it, but you actually had to hack that one paragraph in half to get it to halfway say what you want it to say.

      Here again is the part you hacked:

      no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being."

      Why did it say "claim for himself"? Because lawful authority is derived from God Himself according to the CCC:

      1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17

      That's why I used the example of the cop giving you an order you are required to obey. You can refuse to obey the cop but so what? The judge will just conclude you're being either ignorant or obstinate and fine you in either case.

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    15. Yes, God alone can order you to put someone to death...
      The death penalty can only be admissible under a direct order from God.
      (My emphasis)

      Walter, you are just making things up as you go along. You want it to be the case that God would have to step in directly to say so, but you have no basis for it.

      Moses, in Exodus 21, is passing along to the people the laws that God told him to pass along - he is the message carrier, not the originator. Verse 1 puts it explicitly: "These are the laws you are to set before them:"

      After 11 rules of general scope, he gives the particular law I stated above: But if someone plots and kills another person on purpose, you should remove the killer from my altar and put him to death.

      God is clearly setting forth a rule that applies without God having to step in EACH TIME to say "put him to death". That's the entire format of "the laws" Moses put before them. As laws, they bring forth the rule of law which apply generally, precisely so that you don't have to resort to getting direct, first-hand orders from God.

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    16. @Walter

      On your criticism of catholic morality you seems to be stuck in the same place that pretty much all critics of the death penalty: retributive justice.

      On catholic teaching, the State has the obligation of making sure that society is orderely, and one of the duties this brings is to making sure than justice is served. Since by comming sins one should be punished, them the death penalty can be used as a way of punishing certain sins than merit it. I say "can" because the State does not need to undo every wrong, as Aquinas does adress.

      I remember that we did discuss before were i observed that you do not bother much with retributive justice and so the idea that punishment that does not help anyone directly is sorta of uninteligible to you. But try to see by the eyes of the biblical tradition and its emphasis om retribution.

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    17. Tony

      If what you say is true, then every human who kills another human being must be put to death. You obviously do not believe that, but it doesn't even matter.
      This law from Moses is directly contradicted by the phrase "Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end".
      Moreover, this is about doctrine of the Catholic Church, not about tyhe laws of Moses, some of which were clearly altered by the Catholic Church.
      Or do you agree that “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property"?

      bmiller

      No, I left it out because I wanted to focus on that which everything should be based on.
      And I concluded that this basis cannot be used to condone the death penalty.
      If it were only about innocent life, it would not apply to suicide and euthanasia, e.g.
      For the record, euthanasia is legal in my country, and since i must be subject to the gouverning authorities of my country, I must accept that and so must every Catholic living in my country.
      In fact, the only way not to "claim something for myself" is in case of a direct order or prohibition by God. if God does not order me to execute person X, I cannot execute him.

      Now, I am not going to reply to you on this subject anymore. I have said all I wanted to say and my conclusion stands.

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    18. Talmid

      You are correct that I do not bother much with retributive justice, but my criticism of Catholic morality in this case has nothing to do with that. It has to do with lack of consistency.
      The state has the obligation of making sure that society is orderely, and one of the duties this brings is to making sure than justice is served, but if it is true that God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end, the state cannot sentence someone to death.
      It's as simple as that, really.

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    19. Walter,

      No, I left it out because I wanted to focus on that which everything should be based on.

      That's just another way of saying that you removed the context that you thought conflicted with your opinion. It seems to indicate that you know your position isn't very convincing but it could also mislead unbiased readers away from what the CCC really says. You really shouldn't do that again.

      since i must be subject to the gouverning authorities of my country, I must accept that and so must every Catholic living in my country.

      So it seems you read #1899. That's good. You'll notice that it comes before the passage you quoted half of. But following it there are clarifications and qualifications (also before your "passage") such as:

      1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."

      Since your country has passed immoral laws its' citizens aren't conscience bound to obey and should seek to restore justice.

      I'll just point out that all of these passages regarding God's legitimate authority being realized in governments that promote the common good all come before your single half-quoted passage from the middle of the document. Very weak sauce.

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    20. @Walter: If what you say is true, then every human who kills another human being must be put to death.

      Walter clearly does not wish to allow for progressive clarification.

      First, God issues the simple version of the rule: Thou shalt not kill.
      Then he qualifies that: well, the rule doesn't apply to handling someone who kills.
      Then he clarifies that qualifier: it doesn't apply to a killer who plots to murder and then carries it out, and for such person, you should kill him.
      But if someone kills another accidentally, him you should not put to death.
      The Catholic Church comes along, and further clarifies the issues: it's not that every premeditative murderer must be put to death, there are qualifiers. From the time of Pope Peter to Benedict XVI, she went on to clarify, qualify, and explain the principles involved and interpreting the biblical passages, all the while teaching that in some cases, criminals should be put to death, and in other cases (even of murderers) they should not.

      Moreover, this is about doctrine of the Catholic Church, not about tyhe laws of Moses, some of which were clearly altered by the Catholic Church.

      The Catholic Church, taught by Jesus, continued to take the laws expressed by God through Moses and clarify them: some are simply expressions (or approximations) of the natural law, and those continue to apply. Some of them are expressions of the ceremonial law specified for Jews, and those do not apply to the Christian Church. And of the laws issued by God through Moses that were based on the natural law, the Church has continued to clarify and explain them so that the natural qualifiers are more manifest - as Jesus demonstrated for us in speaking to the laws, e.g. about the laws for observing the sabbath.

      Walter, your insistence that Christians must go about interpreting the Christian Revelation and Tradition in a manner that is satisfying to you alone is, in my estimation, boorishly bad manners. If you wish to repudiate Christian revelation as hogwash, you are free to do so, but then you can have no stake in Christian efforts to interpret it. If you think its interpretation matters, then you can hardly fault Christians for applying a Christian paradigm for its proper interpretation. One element of such paradigm is, exactly, the Church taking what was expressed through Moses and clarifying it, which includes (in some cases) qualifiers added to the rules, and (in other cases) eliminating the rules because they are no longer applicable. Yes, we think that is the proper method. That it upsets you suggests that you might just butt out of our conversation about it.

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    21. Tony,

      That it upsets you suggests that you might just butt out of our conversation about it.

      I seriously doubt that Walter is "upset" about the concept of rules being clarified and qualified per se. People who don't understand that can't function in any society.

      It seems he just feels the need to attack the Catholic Church but wants to sound reasonable. He failed.

      "Any stick to beat dogma" as they say.

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    22. For the record, I am not upset by this.
      And I bowed out of the conversation because I have made my point and Tony made it clear quite some time ago already that he didn't want to discuss this with me.
      But, by all means, believe what you want to believe. as long as you respect my freedom to lead my life as I choose to.

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    23. Glad to see you agree with me Walter.

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  8. Dr Feser
    I don't agree with your position on the DP, but you argue it persuasively, considering it from all angles, and replying to all objections. And of course, your prose is clear and smooth. Fr. Brian Davies writes the same way.

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  9. That is to say, in practice they are generally perceived as having the force of natural law, even if strictly speaking they do not. And Turner later goes on to say that with respect to the abolition of capital punishment, the pope “is within his office to make such a prudential judgment and to enshrine that judgment in the Catechism as existentially binding”

    I will admit that I don't recall all of the details of the ius gentium clearly, but given that qualifier, I would suggest two additional problems (beyond what Prof. Feser pointed out).

    First, if we properly understand the ius gentium as "practically" binding, but not technically binding in all cases (because that's what the "practically" implies), then in a strict theological sense, the pope could elevate a holding to being binding by citing it as now "belonging to the ius gentium ". That is to say: its bindingness only ever had the character of "nearly always" and left open the possibility of circumstances that might arise not envisioned under such ius gentium as collated by the nations, which essentially leaves open prudential analysis. In effect: you don't change something's prudential character from prudential by pointing out the likelihood of the controlling conditions being even more probable than before for leading to the proposed action (or inaction).

    Second, it is patently silly to declare that the nations of the world have now changed a practice so that the new action or handling is now (a) "the practice of the nations" and (b) it HAS BEEN that way for long enough to see it as a stable and persistent, customary view of "the nations", when the militarily dominating world polity, cultural exporter, and (in practice) policeman of the seas EXPLICITLY REPUDIATES the new handling and always has repudiated it (and used it - with the world's almost universal approval - just after the last world war) . It is so patently silly that it simply cannot pass the sniff test. Maybe (and even this is debatable), the Church has the authority to set forth (for her children) a statement of when a practice has become the practice of the nations in a way that now restrains them in the manner of the ius gentium, when the sheer historical thesis is debatable and gray but at least probable. But the Church surely cannot just INVENT a brand new component of the "law of nations" that just 50 years ago was nothing like the common view of the nations. "Since 1976, more than 85 countries have abolished the death penalty for all crimes..." meaning that before then, significantly more than 85 countries allowed for it 50 years ago, (and more than 70 did just 40 years ago, and ...).

    https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/international/countries-that-have-abolished-the-death-penalty-since-1976

    It takes time to establish a new component of the ius gentium, it certainly does not become universally applicable as soon as you get a majority of nations (or even a 2/3 supermajority of nations) decide individually that such a rule now applies to themselves. It takes more than that.

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  10. To start with I would like to thank prof Feser for his very complete and objective presentations of the issues which raise from the novel teaching of Pope Francis about DP: I do complete adhere to his honest and thorough analysis. I just would like to add a couple of comments also after having read some comments here above.
    (1) The fact that the current Pope's teaching is "prima facies" not coherent with the teaching of the Church is not a falsification of the concept of inerrancy of Church's teachings as someone suggested, but it is a falsification of the two following (anyway already catholically categorically wrong) assumptions: (a) that the Pope makes/is the Church; (b) that whatever a Pope utters must be a priori right.
    (2) The statement from the new article about DP in the Catechism which affirms that “the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person” is (a) heretic per se, and (b) absolutely not universal.
    Indeed, for the Catholic the dignity of the person resides not on a cultural and circumstantial understanding of what a human is, but from the ontological objective fact that we are created at the image of God Himself. This fact implies that nothing can reduce the dignity of a human being neither the sickness, neither injuries and wounds, nor the death itself, and not even the sin. And, by the way, it has been God Himself Who, the first condemns each one of us to death as a consequence of the original sin, not only but finds the full and just retribution for the human sins in the Death Penalty exercised on His Son: this clearly shows that DP does not impact or have any negative influence on the dignity of any humans, provided it expresses an act of justice.
    From a cultural point of view, in many places in the world, acceptance of death, like forms of hara-kiri, or suicides practiced by people who cannot afford to pay their debts back, or death penalties as applied in other religious set-ups are not considered as a decrease in their dignity , but, actually, as a noble way to recover one own dignity.
    (3) As a consequence, and without having to split hairs or entering into abstruse reasonings trying to demonstrate the indemonstrable, it is obvious as Catholic that this Papal (pseudo-) teaching has not to be considered as binding by the faithful neither at a theological level nor at an ethical/political one.

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    1. So, the crucifixion was an act of justice?

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    2. I understand that it was just on the part of God to have His son crucified, but my question was actually about whether the people who condemned and executed Jesus were just in going so.

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  11. Quote John Finnis:

    and the radically unjust promotion of gender fluidity

    I think describing gender fluidity as "unjust" is a very interesting choice of words.

    A natural law theorist can truthfully say that gender fluidity is unnatural, unGodly, horrific, disordered etc... but unjust? Who is being harmed, lied to, or defrauded? That's what justice is by definition.

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    1. Oh, heck, I'll play. The 4 year old whose parents decide he's a she or vice versa? The children who are told that their parents can't be trusted but their teacher can be? The 11 year old put on puberty blockers? The person who is talked into permanently mutilating his or her body and regrets it despairingly?

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    2. @b loughlin are those the typical cases or the edge cases? Remember that abolition of the death penalty is advanced by treating edge cases (condemned innocent, perpetrator with compromised will) as the typical case.

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    3. The chaos being created in families is hardly an edge case and is quite clearly injust. The attempts to force those who oppose it to be silent about its evil is not an edge case and quite clearly injust. Are you a scientist? Do you think for one minute your career would survive publishing work demonstrating that gender theory is so much baloney? Would that be just? These are not edge cases. And legitimizing pedophelia as merely another "preference' is next, in fact the movement is already underway.

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    4. "and the radically unjust promotion of gender fluidity

      I think describing gender fluidity as "unjust" is a very interesting choice of words. "

      It wasn't "gender fluidity" that was described as unjust. It was the promotion of gender fluidity. The promotion of a radically evil and radically wrong ideology, one for which there is no reasonable basis, is wrong.

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    5. @b loughlin Why is it evil for a man to choose to be a woman (even though he is biologically male) but it was not evil for the founding generation of the United States to choose to be a different ethnicity (even though they were biologically English)?

      "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution [implying that nobody prior was a US citizen except for the initial generation by choice] shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." (Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the United States Constition)

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    6. implying that nobody prior was a US citizen except for the initial generation by choice

      That doesn't make any sense: the 13 colonies were, effectively, distinct entities, each with separate functioning governments and 100 years of history. Those governments had ways of specifying who was a permanent subject of those polities, and who was just a passing visitor. (A person who was a resident and citizen of New York was not a citizen of New Jersey if he traveled there for business there fo 2 weeks.) For those who immigrated into the colonies, surely they did that by choice (which is still true today), but for those who were born there to parents who were permanent residents, they were not citizens by "choice" but by birth, (which is still true today).

      But this is a red herring, hardly germane to the topic. Whether Finnis was right or wrong about the particular issue (of gender) being one of justice or injustice, his basic point is clear: with abortion and immoral sex being promoted by the very same people who claim "new understandings" of the dignity of the person, we can hardly be confident that these people have a sound and reliable understanding of human dignity. Rather, we should strongly doubt such new understanding being valid, and insist on careful and complete analysis before accepting it. But we never get them offering any details about it so that it COULD be carefully considered, it's always just pure fluff, the words "human dignity" thrown about with wild abandon without a shred of substance.

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    7. But we never get them offering any details about it so that it COULD be carefully considered,

      That's why it's our job as professional (this is my hope, not a statement of fact) philosophers to exact those core value judgments through careful reflection of their words and actions.

      Modern society has come to embrace "be who you choose to be; don't necessarily accept who you're born as" as a core value. In some areas, the Roman Catholic Church has accepted this as acceptable (e.g. if a European person chooses to become a Japanese citizen, no bishop is going to place pain of sin on him because he is not biologically Japanese) but in other areas she has not (e.g. gender). Why is one permitted but the other isn't?

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    8. Your question is plainly frivolous. For a European to become a Japanese citizen does not require surgical mutilation, loss of reproductive function, or permanent dependency upon artificially administered hormones. ‘Changing one’s gender’, so called, if done thoroughly, involves all three.

      To put it in Aristotelean terms, nationality is an accident of human beings, biological sex is part of their essence.

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    9. @Tom Simon St. Thomas Aquinas categorized biological sex as an accident (albeit an inseparable one), not an essence (Disputed Question on the Soul, Article 12, Reply to Objection 1)

      It was Blessed Duns Scotus who categorized sex as part of the essence of the soul. That was very presumptuous of you to presume that the Aristotelian-Thomistic school has a consistent ruling on the relationship of sex to the soul.

      I am on St. Thomas Aquinas's ruling on the issue, not Blessed Duns Scotus.

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    10. Getting back to the actual issue, which is Finnis's point regarding dignity:

      That's why it's our job as professional (this is my hope, not a statement of fact) philosophers to exact those core value judgments through careful reflection of their words and actions.

      I would accept that philosophers and theologians should examine and learn to state in exact terms the proper principles and distinctions involved.

      This in no way precludes that it is, at least as much or perhaps even more, the role of the bishops and the pope to teach clearly. It was certainly this role that led the bishops of the early ecumenical councils to gather together and to pronounce in a clear and exact way what the Church teaches.

      If there has been some sort of lack of clarity in the past on how human dignity interacts with the principles of punishment, it is proper for the bishops to clarify the issues involved, not to simply expand the regions of obscurity and confusion, nor to issue forth new conclusions with no effort to locate their proper, distinct, specific premises. If a Church teaching from the past merits development that development properly consists in clarifying with new distinctions that tell us how and in what ways the old teaching is valid, and where (and why) there were other matters which it failed address. Development does not consist in saying "the Church of old taught X, but it appears that not-X is the way to go." That's nothing like development.

      There is every reason for the Church to speak clearly on this issue, and no reason to be mealy-mouthed or to obfuscate. If dignity is the principle involved, then she has every reason to EXPLAIN the meanings, senses, kinds, parts and elements of dignity so that we can draw meaningful conclusions from them. And she need not wait for philosophers and theologians to first settle such issues, if she is certain that a teaching needs to be changed.

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    11. @Tom Simon St. Thomas Aquinas categorized biological sex as an accident (albeit an inseparable one), not an essence (Disputed Question on the Soul, Article 12, Reply to Objection 1)

      As I understand it: According to basic A/T hylemorphic dualism, the specific sex of one individual of the human species is an accident. However, I believe that properly speaking, it would be an accident in the sense that a human can be either male or female, and either way be wholly human, equally human, neither being defective or lesser in being human.

      It is not "an accident" in the sense that a human may have a sex or may no sex, either way is fine. It is belongs to human nature to come as one of the sexes.

      Further, human nature is divided into only 2 sexes: there is no third sex that is part of the picture of the sexes available to a whole, healthy, complete human. Any individual person might be damaged in respect of their having, in their expression, the entirety of a male expression, or the entirety of a female expression of human nature, just as an individual person might be damaged in being born missing an arm. The possibility of being damaged with regard to expression into a fully integrated male or fully integrated female does not imply anything about whether human nature allows for more than 2 sexes. (Any more than the possibility of being damaged with respect to having 2 arms represents human nature being flexible with respect to how many arms is appropriate.)

      I believe that Thomas is probably wrong in putting the sex into the category of "inseparable accidents" and then saying of it: "the species can be understood without the accidents of the individual, even the inseparable accidents". For the human species cannot be understood without the power of reproduction, for it is proper to the species to represent the love of God in a particular way via the marital act. (An intelligent species that reproduced by single-sex budding would be a essentially different species. The human manner of reflecting the Trinity by mutual love is by reference to being embodied in two complementarily fruitful sexes.) Hence where Genesis says "male and female He created them" it is expressing PROPER accidents, rather than inseparable accidents: The human soul cannot be understood without the power of sexual reproduction, and in particular, that sexual power in two mutually complementary types.

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    12. @Tony Rather untraditional of you to repudiate St. Thomas Aquinas (ora pro nobis) on this point. Maybe it's time to reflect whether your brand of traditionalist Catholicism has more innovative and creative streams in it than you think.

      St. Thomas Aquinas was not arguing that gender fluidity or non-binary sexes existed, rather, he was arguing that, at the most fundamental level, men are just male women and women are just female men. That our fundamental identities are genderless. Just as Jesus said.

      "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (Mark 12:25)

      In Jesus of Nazareth's time, it was understood that men and women were completely different. So much so that men were not even allowed to pray in the same room as women, seeing that the feminine soul drew down different energies from Heaven than the masculine soul. A rejection of St. Thomas Aquinas's teaching sounds like a return to the bad old days of Jesus's time.

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    13. @Tony Rather untraditional of you to repudiate St. Thomas Aquinas (ora pro nobis) on this point. Maybe it's time to reflect whether your brand of traditionalist Catholicism has more innovative and creative streams in it than you think.

      I do not depart from Thomas easily or lightly. However, in this case, (as in the case of his opinion on when ensoulment occured), modern biology provides clear bases to indicate he was in error on the particular matter of identifying which category to put the sex of the individual. (The material cause of sex differentiation (residing in the DNA and other causes at the cell level) of an individual is not a separable accident.) This error does not contradict his basic point, and leaves his primary conclusions untouched, and correcting it still allows us to call the sex of the individual an accident.

      In Jesus of Nazareth's time, it was understood that men and women were completely different. So much so that men were not even allowed to pray in the same room as women, seeing that the feminine soul drew down different energies from Heaven than the masculine soul. A rejection of St. Thomas Aquinas's teaching sounds like a return to the bad old days of Jesus's time.

      Whether there were or were not some ancient theories of the human essence that said women were not even the same species as men is irrelevant: such views were neither part of Christianity itself (which always honored Mary as the preeminent example of a human person) nor part of A/T philosophy (which, as above, puts the sex of a person as an accident.)

      Christ does not say that in heaven, we will BE angels, but that we will like the angels in that there is no marriage. He does not suggest that we will cease to have human essences, by taking on angelic essences. We will remain humans, and will remain having worked out our salvation in fear and trembling, unlike the angels. We will also remain, in heaven, mothers and fathers of certain persons, and sons and daughters of certain persons, unlike the angels. (Mary remains the Mother of God.) Our condition in heaven will encapsulate those realities and relationships, and our glories will reflect how we used those relationships well in pursuing the love of God. We will remain male and female, as He created us, and Christ remained with his glorified body.

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  12. If we are to do away with the death penalty as an assault on the dignity of the person, then what is to stop the elimination of all retributive justice? I have come to know several people who have done serious time (arson, armed robbery, drug dealing) and they can all tell you that one's dignity is, shall I say, reduced, while you are a guest of the state. Should we eliminate imprisonment entirely? What are the consequences of such a decision? Once upon a time you could call this a slippery-slope argument and dismiss it but we have over the last quarter century or more accelerated down such slopes so precipitously that this sort of argument gains a new demonstrated validity.

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    1. I made the same connection, in Feser's other recent post on DP: "The Catechism and Capital Punishment: A Reply to Annett". Indeed, I suggest that if you follow it out, doing away with the retributive aspect of punishment has the effect of undermining ALL punishment of any kind, not just DP, and you end up with a "justice" system that is instead not intended to repair justice, but (at best) to become a reform hospital, meant to correct "wrong thinking" in the criminals. All crimes would end up being nothing but "hate crimes", and then all kinds of belief that the state formally disapproved of would become "crimes" requiring "re-education". It would be as horrible as any other institution envisioned in Orwell's 1984. Pol Pot in Cambodia showed us what you can do with re-education camps.

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  13. I remember as a boy in the South seeing men working on the chain gang. I also remember we almost never locked out doors at night. There was really no need to. I also remember that sometimes people would knock on our door at night, saying they needed to use our phone, and we would let them in, My mon would sometimes offer them a cup of coffee. Times have changed.

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  14. I'm still trying to sort out what the emotional mumble mouths of progress mean when they emit noises about some 'dignity' which the offender supposedly possesses; when the specific offender is neither dignified, nor possessed of any of the attributes of honor, truthfulness, magnanimity/largeness of spirit, equanimity, or any other of the various traits by which an individual manifests or expresses his "dignity".

    (Bear in mind that although a monkey or a carrion eater has no dignity, that implies no recommendation it should be tormented)

    But I guess in their world, the possession of dignity has nothing to do with internalized virtues or behavioral attributes, and the recognition of them.

    In which case, I suppose, liars express truth, cowards show courage, gluttons are to be celebrated for their temperance, a pope who reputedly declared that he "wanted the confusion" is authoritative; and pigs, having invisible wings, really do fly.

    Boy, that Jacobin fanatic Jacques Hebert faced the guillotine with GREAT dignity!

    No wonder, we have perverted males worming their way into womens' locker rooms while claiming to be female.

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    1. I'm still trying to sort out what the emotional mumble mouths of progress mean when they emit noises about some 'dignity' which the offender supposedly possesses;

      Don't hold your breath.

      As far as I can tell, the liberal, modernists, and various sorts of heresiarchs have been mouthing this platitude ever since they began to attack the death penalty, and have done so without ever trying to put any content into the phrase that could hold up its head in polite society.

      That is, in the (rare) cases when they propose what content lies under the term "dignity", all they ever manage to provide is a sense of dignity that has the other side (those who accept the death penalty) saying "yes, we knew all about THAT sense of dignity all along, we recognize it, we respect it, and we have accounted for it perfectly well in explaining why THAT sense of dignity doesn't stand against the death penalty."

      If they have the temerity to try another tack after that failed attempt, they then propose so-called "dignities" that effectively amount to nothing more than the modernist claptrap of "each person is his own personal god, and therefore has infinite dignity". Of COURSE they don't actually state it in those terms explicitly, but that's what it amounts to. Take Anthony Kennedy's idiotic mantra in Planned Parenthood vs. Casey: "At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life." Said the serpent to Eve: "you shall be as gods." There isn't any reason someone with a lick of common sense should credit this kind of assertion as the basis for "dignity" with a ha'penny of validity, and certainly no Catholic should accept it (much less base a passage in the Catechism on it).

      In rhetorical terms, I suspect that one of the reasons that the changed phrasing in the Catechism does not provide any footnoted references to explanations of these so-called "increased awareness" of dignity and of "new understanding" of penal concepts is that nobody wanted to subject these phrases to the critical analysis that would certainly follow if there was any effort to PIN DOWN what the "awareness" and "understandings" really were. I mean, if the "new understandings" of penal ideas were those that simply reject outright the retributive end of punishment, that might not sit so well with the earlier passage that leaves intact what JPII said: that the retributive end of punishment is the primary end.

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    2. Ok, so I have done a little searching of older dictionaries, and tried to compare what I read there, to what I recall from my school days readings in classical through Renaissance history.

      I actually don't recall much at all, IF ANYTHING, about the concept of "dignity" with regard to legal status while studying the history of English law or the development of the American Constitution. Probably because it was not much there.

      Something like how "society" as used by progressive clowns is hardly found in the texts on the debates on the Constitution.

      Though, if you dragged the Federalist Papers, I think Hamilton may have used it. Which effen figures, pompous and neurotic little pr#ck that he was. The one good thing Aaron Burr ever accomplished ...

      Anyway, one of the clearest explanations of what has happened with regard to the ever expanding girth of "man's dignity" is provided [or admitted to] by a web site with the happy name, "Human Rights Careers.
      It appears to be a case of definitional inflation, leading to job opportunities.

      Now, of course, yeah one might make a Christian case - and the more fundamentalist the belief/premise the stronger the case - that a biblical belief in special creation [linking man to the image and likeness of God], and the oneness of mankind [ distributing this special character and status across all examples of this species of primate, even to soulless progressives ] gets you some of the way there ... regarding "intrinsic worthiness" or some such allied notion.

      But really, under what possible construction could one of the organisms of the left - because on their own analysis they are reducible to soulless appetite entities, if not much less - themselves talk convincingly of intrinsic dignity? It's laughable.

      Well, here's the more than merely plausible explanation. It's because they decided to say so.


      "The term “dignity” has evolved over the years. Originally, the Latin, English, and French words for “dignity” did not have anything to do with a person’s inherent value. It aligned much closer with someone’s “merit.” If someone was “dignified,” it meant they had a high status. They belonged to royalty or the church, or, at the very least, they had money. For this reason, “human dignity” does not appear in the US Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. The phrase as we understand it today wasn’t recognized until 1948. The United Nations ratified the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...."

      Yeah, so it involves that French bugger who was going to kill himself until he became a Catholic and invented integralism or integral humanism ... or something about how to be annoying while using God as an excuse.

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  15. Got a question for the ol Popey.

    Now, apparently, we who are putting up with the perverts and maniacs you want to set loose, are nonetheless obligated by some principle to nonetheless maintain social order and the rule of law. To protect the weak, farm the fields, make the medicines, heal the sick, feed the poor, and all that stuff in general.

    This, rather than say, form new private associations which would simply exclude the demonstrably problematic altogether.

    So, suppose none of the normals want to be sheriff or jail-keep under your onerus terms?

    You know, there are still a lot of us rednecks in the world who can do pretty well in a quasi anarchy if we have to; and who don't give two shits about "it takes a village" or placing a yoke on our necks in order to make the world safe and accommodating for obnoxious mentally ill Starbucks' barristas to act out. What if eventually, and assuming AI or Transhumanism does not getcha first, no one wants the job, and we just let you folks self destruct?

    You know, as you add chaos and social solvents to the mix ... is someone still obligated to prop the system up, join the army, be a cop, to protect you from those you are enabling?

    What do you think, Frankie? Will civilization automatically continue, and willing, competent, hands always be found to serve, even as you p#ss down their necks?

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  16. WCB

    The law of nations? For a long time, capital punishment for minor infractions was part and parcel of the laws of some nations. And notoriously, did not end such crimes. And many nations used cruel and svage methods of execution. In England for example, drawing and Quartering. In France, breaking on the whell. And the ever popular auto de fes burning heretics at the stake. Germany's savage treatment of Jews under Hitler.

    Here in the U.S. our founding fathers in our constitution banned cruel and unusual punishments.

    I note many modern Western European nations have banned capital punishment. And the cruel punishment of past era. Sometimes, laws of nations and churches change for the better. Bury the cruel practices of the past and move on.

    WCB

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    1. You don't seem to understand what the phrase "law if nations" means.

      You'll find a heap of literature on practices like slavery, torture, etc. In the Catholic tradition if you want to. It's not so clear cut as you might think.

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  17. WCB

    Van Den Acker
    "The reason he usually gives is that traditional teachings cannot be reversed because otherwise the Catholic Church would not be able to teach infallibly."

    The RCc used to practice torture, slavery, religious was and aut de fes, burning heretics alive.

    The RCC has abandoned those activities. So the traditional teachings cannot be reversed is already long ago be abandoned. If that is Ed Feser's reason, it is not really that strong of a principle to hold.

    WCB

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    1. WCB

      It's not about what the RCC used to practice, it's what the RCC taught as doctrine.
      I don't think "burning heretics alive" was ever part of the official doctrine of the RCC, but I can be mistaken.
      The RCC most certainly condoned those practices, but that's another matter.

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  18. WCB Check your spelling.

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  19. "The RCc used to practice torture, slavery, religious was and aut de fes, burning heretics alive."

    Placing historical novels aside, you must have read different history books in school than the ones I did. Mine, said that the state performed the executions.

    Perhaps you can cite where the Vatican burned heretics on its own?

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    1. So it had a bit of help with one of the items WCB listed. Mmmmm....that sure invalidates what he had to say then🤣

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    2. "So it had a bit of help with one of the items WCB listed. Mmmmm....that sure invalidates what he had to say then"

      I have no idea what that first sentence means, nor what conclusion you are trying to imply.

      I asked WCB for a cite. That's all. I assumed he was not taking Monty Python, or the novel Captain from Castile as his source. As the assertion he was advancing did not comport with my school days studies, I inquired about his source.

      Perhaps you have a book in your collection which you would like to cite.

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    3. ‘Had a bit of help’? Heretics were burned because secular rulers, not the Church, demanded that their subjects be of the same religion as themselves. As the history of the Protestant nations shows, rulers were quite capable of executing religious dissenters without any involvement by the Church.

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    4. WCB

      The Inquisition was established by Ferdinand and Isabella. The Papacy blessed the effort. The Dominicans were appointed officially to run the Inquistition. Using torture quite freely. Those covicted of heresy were condemened to death by the the Inquisition. And then handed over to local authorities for their execution.local authorities. Often scourged, tongues cut out and then burned alive. It was a system. The Inquisitoers knew full well the fate of those they condemned. So did the Kings of Spain and Portugul. To claim that the RCC played no prt in the cruel executions of those so tortured and mistreated is nonsense.

      WCB

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    5. The Inquisition did not ‘use torture quite freely’. The use of torture was limited by canon law to a single session, not more than fifteen minutes in duration, and inflicting no lasting bodily harm. Common criminals under Spanish jurisdiction were known to make blasphemous remarks at their hearings so that their cases would be transferred to the jurisdiction of the Inquisition – because the Inquisition was more lenient than the secular authorities, and treated its prisoners better.

      You are out of your depth on this subject. I concede that the methods of the Inquisition make you squeamish. If you faced them honestly, you would find that nearly every detail of daily life in those times made you squeamish. You would have to condemn every feature of the age because it did not conform to the standards of comfort and sloth made possible by modern technology.

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  20. WCB

    The RCC condemned people to death and whether they executed heretics or handed the heretics over to a state executioner makes little difference. The point remains. The RCC no longer tortures or executes anybody. Not even for heresy. So the idea that the RCC can't support an end to capital punishment because it has long been part of long accepted custom is not a good argument.

    WCB

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  21. WCB

    Google is your friend. Google Auto-de-fe.

    ....
    The exact number of people executed by the Inquisition is not known. Juan Antonio Llorente, the ex-secretary of the Holy Office, gave the following numbers for the Inquisition excluding the American colonies, Sicily and Sardinia: 31,912 burnt, 17,696 burned in effigy...
    ....


    WCB

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    1. Make Google your friend, WCB
      "religious was and aut de fes"
      Religious what? And it is:
      plural noun: autos-de-fé
      Stardusty trolls better than you do.



      a sentence condemning a person to an auto-da-fé

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    2. Anonymous at 12.46PM

      You are really getting desperate when the only criticism you can offer of someone's contribution is to point out a typo and his infelicity with an obscure plural. Is that it???

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  22. WCB
    You need to use more reliable sources. Llorente figures were exaggerated. Prof. Edward Peters and Prof. Henry Kamen are the leading authorities of the Spanish Inquisition.

    "Edward Peters, from the University of Pennsylvania, is the author of Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989). Henry Kamen, a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society and professor at the University of Wisconsin – Madison, wrote The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1998).

    These two books are in the forefront of an emerging, very different perspective on the Inquisitions: an understanding that they were exponentially less inclined to issue death penalties than had previously been commonly assumed, and also quite different in character and even essence than the longstanding anti-Catholic stereotypes would have us believe.

    On page 87 of his book, Dr. Peters states: “The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.” Likewise, Dr. Kamen states in his book:

    Taking into account all the tribunals of Spain up to about 1530, it is unlikely that more than two thousand people were executed for heresy by the Inquisition. (p. 60)

    . . . it is clear that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. . . . it would seem that during the 16th and 17th centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe. (p. 203"

    BTW, Prof Peters was formerly the Henry Charles Lea Professor of History at the Univ of Pennsylvania.

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  23. WCB

    Numbers do not matter that much. Torture and burning heretics at the stake matters. A bad idea. In 325 CE Emperor Constantine made Christianity legal. In 365 CE, Spanish Bishop Priscillian and several Spanish monks were executed for heresy. Constantine condemned the books of Arian to be burnt and anybody who was found in possesion of such books after that to be burnt also.

    Killing heretics was not confined to the Spanish Inquisition by any means. And we had a long and complex history of medieval Inquisitions also.

    Again, the point is, the long history of the RCC killing heretics has been abandoned so arguments that this or that action such as capital punishment having a long history and should not thus be halted is a weak argument. Unless we want to sanction auto-de-fes on that same basis.

    WCB

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    1. Numbers do certainly matter. Read those books I mentioned and educate yourself. And yours was not a typo. What you are writing about is obscure to you, and it shows.

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  24. " . . . it is here worth simply pointing to a couple more slam-dunk passages on the death penalty in the New Testament underemphasized by Feser and Bessette — assuming that Jesus and St. Paul are sufficiently knowledgeable about moral theology to convince one, that is."
    from my page, here:
    para 10
    https://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2017/12/by-man-shall-his-blood-be-shed-catholic.html

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