Monday, January 19, 2026

Socratic politics: Lessons from the Gorgias

Almost forty years ago, the liberal pragmatist philosopher Richard Rorty published an essay titled “The Priority of Democracy to Philosophy.”  I recall hating it immediately, from the title alone.  The sentiment was appalling coming from anyone, but especially from a philosopher.  Philosophy aims at the true and the good, democracy merely at what the majority happens to want.  That can sometimes be false and very bad indeed – and in one notorious case it was the execution of Socrates, the model for all philosophers.  How could philosophy not have the priority?

Prioritizing democracy

But what exactly is it for either to have “priority” to the other?  What Rorty had in mind is this.  The liberal democratic tradition has pushed religion ever further out of the public square.  Theology is now widely regarded as a purely private interest whose claims have no bearing on the political order.  But for centuries, liberalism took philosophy to retain political relevance.  In particular, liberal theorists took their favored polity to require philosophical foundations – in Locke’s natural rights theory, Mill’s utilitarianism, or whatever.

But none of the various alternative liberal political philosophies has ever found universal acceptance.  The pluralism of modern liberal democratic societies is so great that agreement on philosophical premises is no more likely than on theological premises.  Rorty’s conclusion is that the quest for philosophical foundations should be abandoned, and that philosophy has no more business in the public square than religion.  You might say that, just as liberalism has created a separation of Church and state, Rorty calls for a separation of philosophy and state. 

What, then, can ground liberal democracy?  If grounding it entails rooting liberal democratic principles in truths about human nature that transcend all particular cultures and historical eras, Rorty’s answer is that nothing can ground it.  But neither, in his view, does it need such a foundation.  A contemporary liberal democratic society can ground itself in whatever principles it happens to take as basic and non-negotiable, even if these are very different from those that would have been embraced in other eras or by other societies.

If a critic asks why anyone should accept such principles, Rorty’s answer is that nothing more need be said than that this is what “we” citizens of a modern liberal democracy take to be basic, and that’s that.  Any alternative is, for “us,” simply beyond the pale.  He is well aware that there are those within modern liberal democratic society who do not agree, and are committed to religious, philosophical, or other views that are incompatible with its basic principles.  But the majority, who accept those principles, regard such people as “crazy” and need pay them no mind.  Says Rorty:

They are not crazy because they have mistaken the ahistorical nature of human beings.  They are crazy because the limits of sanity are set by what we can take seriously.  This, in turn, is determined by our upbringing, our historical situation. (p. 288)

Rorty is also well aware that the resulting position is “relatively local and ethnocentric – the tradition of a particular community, the consensus of a particular culture” (p. 281).  It is, in short, frankly relativist.  Except that Rorty urges us to be “light-minded” about traditional philosophical topics such as truth and relativism (p. 293), the debate over which is as ancient as Plato and his Sophist rivals.  Partisans of liberal democracy needn’t engage with the critic who would raise against them the traditional objections to views like Rorty’s.  They may “simply drop [such] questions and the vocabulary in which those questions are posed” and “refuse to argue” with those who press them (p. 290).

Hence, where such traditional philosophical views come into conflict with the assumptions of liberal democracy, “democracy takes precedence over philosophy” (p. 291).  For defenders of liberal democracy, in Rorty’s view, philosophy can only be about “putting politics first and tailoring a philosophy to suit” (p. 282). 

Rorty’s position is similar to John Rawls’s view that liberalism does not need any metaphysical foundation, but can be grounded instead in an “overlapping consensus” between the “reasonable comprehensive doctrines” that exist within a pluralistic society – where, on closer inspection, it turns out that a doctrine counts as “reasonable” in Rawls’s view only if it accepts the liberal’s conception of political order.  Indeed, Rorty sees himself as essentially giving a more explicitly pragmatist formulation of Rawls’s basic idea.  And as with Rawls, the result is a shamelessly question-begging position.  For it amounts to the thesis that liberalism can be given an adequate foundation as long as you accept the basic principles of liberalism.

The reason Rorty and Rawls think they can get away with this is evidently that they suppose that there are enough people in modern liberal democratic societies – or enough people with power and influence, anyway – who are willing to let them get away with it.  That assumption is much less plausible today than it was at the time Rorty wrote his essay.  But even if it were true, it amounts to little more than an urbane riff on the fallacy of appealing to the mob.

Prioritizing philosophy

In Plato’s Gorgias, Socrates gives powerful expression to the priority of philosophy to democracy, and of its priority to politics more generally.  Addressing Callicles – who, like Rorty, puts politics above philosophy – Socrates says:

I am in love… with philosophy, you with the democracy of Athens… For all your cleverness you are unable to contradict any assertion made by the object of your love, but shift your ground this way and that… If the Athenian democracy denies any statement made by you in a speech, you change your policy in deference to its wishes… My love, philosophy… is perpetually saying… what you are now hearing from me, and she is a great deal less capricious… Philosophy never changes… Better that the mass of mankind should disagree with me and contradict me than that I, a single individual, should be out of harmony with myself and contradict myself. (Hamilton translation, pp. 75-76)

Notoriously, Callicles takes the view that might makes right, and that Socrates’ unwavering adherence to reason and moral principle evinces weakness.  He judges the philosopher to be impractical and unworldly, someone comparable to “those who stammer and play childish games” and who “deserve[s] a whipping for his unmanly behavior” (pp. 80-81).  In Callicles’ view, the point of life is power, the way to attain power is through politics, and the key to success in politics is skill at keeping the mob on one’s side through rhetoric.  Hence Socrates’ charge that Callicles is in love with the democracy of Athens, insofar as he accommodates himself to whatever it wishes.

Callicles’ frank celebration of the strongman may make him seem very different from Rorty, who deploys the soft rhetoric of tolerance and pluralism.  But what they have in common is more significant than their differences.  Both scorn Socratic philosophy’s appeal to objective rational and moral standards.  Both would replace them with the prevailing democratic consensus (even if what Rorty had in mind by this is something less ephemeral than what Socrates accuses Callicles of catering to).  Both essentially ground the political order in raw power – in Callicles’ case, the power of the demagogue, in Rorty’s the power of conventional opinion.

For the Socrates of the Gorgias, though, it is not just that philosophy is prior to politics insofar as the truth it pursues is of greater importance than majority opinion.  He also holds that philosophy should order politics, inverting Rorty’s position that politics should shape philosophy.  Of political discourse, Socrates says:

There are two kinds of political oratory, one of them is pandering and base clap-trap; only the other is good, which aims at the edification of the souls of the citizens and is always striving to say what is best, whether it be welcome or unwelcome to the ears of the audience. (p. 110)

And the aim of Socratic orators is not merely to increase the listener’s theoretical knowledge but “to improve their fellow-citizens as much as possible” (Ibid.).  That is to say, they are engaged in a moral exercise no less than an intellectual one.  Socrates continues:

The means which produce order and proportion in the soul are called ‘regulation’ and ‘law’; these are what make men law-abiding and orderly, and so we have righteousness and moderation… Then the good orator, being also a man of expert knowledge, will have these ends in view in any speech or action by which he seeks to influence the souls of men… His attention will be wholly concentrated on bringing righteousness and moderation and every other virtue to birth in the souls of his fellow-citizens, and on removing their opposites, unrighteousness and excess and vice. (pp. 112-13)

Nor is this merely a matter of the philosopher acting in a private capacity to exhort his fellow citizens to what is true and good.  Rather, the state and its rulers must work for this end.  One’s “sole concern as a public man will be to make us who are citizens as good as possible… that is the duty of the statesman… the service which a good man owes to his country” (pp. 128-29).  And only a good man can do this job:

Ought we not then to set about our treatment of the state and its citizens on this principle, with the idea of making the citizens themselves as good as possible?  Without such a principle… one can do no good; no other service to the state is of the slightest avail if those who are to acquire riches or authority over people or any other kind of power are not men of good will. (pp. 126-27)

For Socrates, this is not an optional utopian ideal, but the very essence of statesmanship, to be practiced whatever the cost.  In response to Callicles’ advice that he pander to democratic opinion lest his opposition to it put him in danger, Socrates says:

I believe that I am one of the few Athenians – perhaps indeed there is no other – who studies the genuine art of statesmanship, and that I am the only man now living who puts it into practice… What I say on any occasion is not designed to please, and… I aim not at what is most agreeable but at what is best, and will not employ the subtle arts which you advise. (p. 140)

Similarly, Socrates says, the good man must not pander to a despot any more than to the mob, in the interests of securing power or keeping himself safe.  Even if he should succeed, the victory will be Pyrrhic, for “in that case there will befall him the greatest of all evils, a soul vitiated and corrupted by the imitation of his master and the power thus acquired” (p. 122).  We must “take care… that we do not find… that we have purchased political power at the cost of all that we hold most dear” (p. 125).

We see in the Gorgias, then, the seeds of a conception of politics that would be worked out in greater detail and more systematically in Plato’s Republic and Aristotle’s Politics, and later still in the work of natural law thinkers like St. Thomas Aquinas.  Of course, these thinkers differ in important ways.  But they agree that a state must facilitate the moral perfection of its citizens, that the guidance of sound philosophy is essential to this, and that rulers must be virtuous themselves if they are plausibly going to further this end.

Modern liberalism would come to define itself in opposition to this classical “perfectionist” conception of politics.  It takes the aim of politics to be, not the facilitation of citizens’ pursuit of the good, but the protection of their pursuit of whatever ends they happen to have – even ends that are gravely immoral by classical standards.  It eschews the philosophical and theological sources of wisdom the classical tradition says ought to inform statecraft.  And it tends to prize mere technocratic competence rather than the sorts of virtues a Plato, Aristotle, or Aquinas would attribute to the ideal statesman.

Whither postliberalism?

One of the insights of postliberalism is that the liberal tradition always had within it the seeds of the decadent liberalism of Rawls and Rorty – and that this desiccated late stage liberalism was bound in turn to give way to the more radical “woke” ideologies that have in recent years begun to destabilize liberal democracy from within. 

What does postliberalism propose to put in its place?  The main postliberal writers are clearly committed to a revival of some version or other of the classical, Socratic conception of politics.  Their main inspirations tend to include thinkers like Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, and other notables from this tradition.  We might call this approach “Socratic postliberalism.” 

However, there is another tendency which is sometimes characterized as “postliberal,” albeit by the critics of postliberalism rather than by postliberals themselves.  Socratic postliberalism arose largely within academia, and has been presented in formal essays and books featuring carefully developed lines of argument and analysis.  By contrast, the other tendency I refer to derives more from online culture and is typically expressed in podcasts, tweets, and the occasional amateurish treatise.  As to its content, it tends toward a tribalism that manifests itself in a fixation on matters of race and a crude jingoism.  It is enthusiastic about tearing down existing institutions, and impatient with any suggestion that it would be better to reform them, or at least to think carefully about what might replace them before tearing them down.  It is less interested in persuasion than in rallying allies and offending and flummoxing opponents through outrageous rhetoric – a right-wing variation on “épater la bourgeoisie.”  And it sees only weakness in calls for moderation or intellectual consistency, preferring leaders who are aggressive to the point of obnoxiousness, and actions that are bold to the point of recklessness.

This tendency may pay occasional lip service to the Socratic tradition, but its spirit is definitely that of Callicles.  Its ideal is not the philosopher who pursues the true and the good even if it costs him his life (as it did Socrates), but the strongman who can channel the will of the tribe and lead it in crushing its enemies.  If it is “postliberal” insofar as it directs its animus at some of the same tendencies opposed by Socratic postliberalism, it is nevertheless a very different animal.  We might label it “Calliclean postliberalism.”

Socratic and Calliclean postliberalism alike are enemies of the liberalism of Rawls and Rorty.  But as what I’ve said so far indicates, Calliclean postliberalism is in reality closer to Rorty’s position than might at first appear. For they are agreed in prioritizing politics over philosophy, power over principle, the will of the mob over unwavering fidelity to the true and the good.  True, Calliclean postliberalism is shrilly populist whereas Rortian liberalism is urbanely democratic.  But that just means that they appeal to different mobs.

Because of what they have in common, Calliclean postliberalism is no more coherent than Rortian liberalism, and no less subject to Socrates’ refutation of Callicles in the Gorgias.  It channels some understandable frustrations, but also some ugly and irrational hatreds and resentments.  And while it can protest our disordered political and cultural situation, it cannot provide a remedy.  Calliclean politics can at most win a battle or two, until it is itself crushed by whatever gang of thugs the rival mob votes into office.  Socratic politics built our civilization, and only a Socratic postliberalism can renew it.

75 comments:

  1. "I recall hating it immediately, from the title alone."

    Don't worry, Ed, you are definitely not alone in this.

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  2. I have often wondered what separates Rorty from Nietzsche save that the former liked the idea of a certain type of progress secular democratic aesthetic (certainly Rorty tries to ground more things meaning and communication related in group-thinking, but when it's all said and done why prefer conformity to divergence as long as the latter is still intelligible?). In both cases their speech does not and cannot represent reality, but must be seen as an attempt to shape it.

    As a general rule one should gravely distrust those of a sceptical bent who comment greatly on politics.

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    1. "In both cases their speech does not and cannot represent reality, but must be seen as an attempt to shape it." -- This is clearly a false dilemma, is it not? (And thus a failed attempt to (truly) represent reality, even if also a sincere attempt to (polemically) shape it.)

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    2. Not at all--Rorty has been quite open about this, and its application to his own linguistic behaviourist thought, hence the whole Ironist stance. On a naive representational view such is indeed a false dichotomy since we often want to accurately represent the world in order to shape it a different way (the best to convince people to help dig for gold in them there hills is to show them there is actually gold in them there hills). But if one rejects truth as correspondence or representation, truth as a mirror to world, then this option goes out of the window; if such theories are "true" then the idea of truth as such as at best unreachable and more likely something like the Logical Positivists widersinn.

      (If anything he is too keen to read others i.e. Heidegger or Derrida, in the same light)

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    3. Hmm... I don't follow that at all. Whether you're 'naive' or 'ironist' about it, it's still a false dilemma. You're merely asserting the contrary, so far as I can see.

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  3. Earlier this year, Virginia senator Tim Kaine called the idea that human rights come from God "extremely troubling"—the sort of thing a "totalitarian regime" would say.

    Now, setting aside the fact that Kaine is obviously not very familiar with, say, the Declaration of Independence, this weird (if not atypical) episode in American politics demonstrates pretty clearly the absurdity of trying to make democracy its own foundation, and probably tells us a lot about the collapse of faith in republican government in the United States in the 21st century. It's one thing to make democratic government an end in itself in an ivory tower sort of way like Rorty does; it's another thing to actually tell people that their human rights and human dignity are basically state-invented fictions that we all pretend to believe in for the common good, and then expect them to continue on like nothing happened. Of course, it's not like irreligious liberals actually have a choice here. Their nihilistic philsophy leaves no room for any of the foundational assumptions that once undergirded liberal democracy, so the only way to save democracy is to resort to empty play-acting, like the Soviet bureaucrats in the 1980s who refused to believe that the system was crumbling around them.

    I'm not terribly optimistic about what comes after liberal democracy, and I'm not convinced that you can actually draw a clear line between "academic" postliberalism and the kind of nihilistic, ultra-nationalist trolling that claims to share the same goals (Rod Dreher, for example, seems to have his feet firmly planted in both camps). But liberalism definitely dug its own grave, and its biggest supporters are also its unwitting pallbearers.

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  4. The problem with postliberalism is that guys like Dr. Feser are terribly ignorant of modern history, modern political forms, and modern public policy, which is why he almost never discusses any of those topics outside limited spheres where abstract philosophical discourse works better (like evaluating modern wars under just war theory). The only real world examples we have of modern, developed states operating without liberal principles are totalitarian despotisms or corrupt, authoritarian tin-pot regimes. The further postliberal ideas get away from philosophical abstraction and the closer they get to nuts-and-bolts politics and policy, the weaker and more absurd they get. You can wax poetic about Socrates, but the praxis of this kind of politics would likely be a corrupt, authoritarian, economically declining police state looted by billionaire oligarchs.

    The rub is that Marx was right about base and superstructure. Modern individualism, secularism, atomization, and other things social conservatives complaint about are the byproduct of industrialization and capitalism. If you aren't a radical environmentalist or a socialist seeking to change these factors, but you dislike modern culture anyway, you need to make your peace with the fact that there are aspects of modern society which you will find problematic. The way you make your peace with modernity is by liberalism and pluralism, which allows you, your family, and your religious community to maintain conservative, religious values in a society that is, in its economic and technological DNA, athestic and atomizing. In exchange, you merely must respect the agency of others and may seek to persuade, not compel, them to share your views. Switching out the elites, and then hoping the elites reverse the cultural decay of society through violence and coercion, does not work and we have many examples of this.

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    1. So what you appear to be saying is that is that the modern liberal and post-liberal state probably lacks any form of moral legitimacy? I am inclined to agree—awful dance of power play and empty vanity. The question then becomes not what politician to vote in, but how to evade the politician who gets voted in’s absurd/immoral/arbitrary demands.

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    2. I agree with this. What Ed is saying, in the abstract, seems fine but if only tyrants ever try to enact these ideas, you might start to question the theory. The will to dominate people is strong in the Christian Right because of these totalitarian presumptions - every tyrant, in form, is what is desired and every one of them, are terrible - yet they keep wanting it. Our current situation is great example as the people supposedly orientated towards virtue overwhelmingly support a morally bankrupt man and administration. Between a foundation-less pluralism that communally struggles to ground itself on egalitarian principles and a foundational hierarchy consistently producing tyranny, I will choose the former. I don’t necessarily agree with Rorty’s arguments but I find it more honest and less amenable to the varying tyrannies the Right has consistently supported for centuries now. The last part of your post, I think, is exactly the case - Pluralism is the way, not some ‘grounding’ that, in practice, does the opposite of what it claims to do.

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    3. Oa Police,

      That doesn't strike me as a reasonable reading of 1st Anon's comment (and if 2nd Anon is 1st Anon, please explain to me what you mean). 1st Anon was pointing out that for as fine and high-sounding as Feser's ideas sound, any attempt to implement them in the real world would almost certainly result in some kind of horrific dictatorship (something that I would content is supported by history). How do you get from there to "modern states have no legitimacy"?

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    4. The point I was making is that a certain amount of cultural liberalism is simply baked into how modern societies are structured on a fundamental economic/technological level, as predicted by the Marxist framework. If you are a conservative and you dislike how culture has evolved in modernity, but you don't have any plans to change the mode of production, it makes more sense to make your peace with modernity and liberalism rather than fantasizing about a based dictatorship that revives "tradition" while preserving Amazon Prime same day delivery. Putting conservative elites in charge, and then having these elites impose their ideology from above in a heavy-handed, authoritarian manner while preserving a capitalist, modern economy, is like planting a seed in soil that rejects it. An individual may be a traditionalist Catholic, but you can't revive the culture of the Middle Ages at scale without returning to a Middle Ages mode of production. There might be a veneer of performative state-backed conservativism or religious devotion, but this would mask a society that is much worse off due to the loss of basic civil freedoms. Below this state-backed conservative veneer, society would remain highly individualistic because of how it is shaped by the mode of production. Look at modern Russia and Iran for examples of this. Unless you have a plan to overthrow industrial capitalism and replace it with anarchist farming communities (or some other crazy scheme), you need to make your peace with liberalism and pluralism.

      I think many conservatives implicitly think culture changes like this: there is a discourse of ideas among elites-->as the discourse proceeds, certain ideas become fashionable among elites-->the fashionable ideas then "trickle down" to mass society through elite-controlled media and education systems. While there is some truth to this, I think this is mostly the wrong way to look at it, and Marxist materialism is actually a more helpful framework (if simplified and limited in its own way).

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    5. Thank you. This was genuinely enlightening. And yes, that seems right. We often tend to ignore the fact that our material circumstances have a significant effect on the way our thoughts and lives play out. I don't take a pure "Great Forces" view of history, but the rules of the game and the initial setup of the pieces inevitably constricts what decisions the "players" can take, no matter how determined or clever they are.

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  5. Thank you for this excellent analysis of our ascent into airborne pluralism. While they have rationalized themselves out of the foundations of our castles, it seems we who ‘have the mind of Christ’ have done much the same by marginalizing that which we have been given. When Jesus said, “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth” (John 17:17), he located the foundation that Solomon would have surely pointed out to Socrates (Pr 2:6). Our hard acknowledgement and acceptance scripture’s anthropology is no easier or harder than its theology - lest we perpetually, as Socrates says, “be out of harmony with myself and contradict myself.”

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  6. This is a beautifully written piece.

    Everytime I read Prof, I inch closer to agreeing with him.

    However, the one issue that we disagree on is the question of letting other great faith traditions like islam and Hinduism propagate their faith as we would expect them to give Christianity that freedom.

    And I tend to agree with Poor John Paul II on this particular point.

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  7. Hi Ed.

    Your quote from 2020
    "Even now the prospect of an American tyrant in the Platonic mold appears far-fetched—but, like so many other things in these bizarre times, not quite as far-fetched as it seemed just a few years ago."

    Do you think we are close to this?

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    1. That's what I find admirable about Prof, he isn't the kind of person to sit back and say "I told you so", instead he will buckle up and push back against the nihilistic impulses, while a lot of people embrace the idea of fermenting chaos. Although I guess Prof should do a write up one day of what is worth salvaging.

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    2. Prof

      With Mark Carney's speech and deal with China, many are saying that it's the end of the previous world order, with it increasingly looking like US will not longer be the World's reserve currency in the long term.

      Do you have any thoughts on that?

      It's a very significant issue, what should be the status going forward.

      There will be a period of hardship no doubt.

      But how does this feature into your political and economic calculus

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    3. Schmucks like Mark Carney perhaps believe that 'world order' is actually determined by the rhetoric used in speeches made by schmucks like Mark Carney. I would be skeptical of such a view.

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  8. It's admirable that Prof, despite being one of the harshest critics of the current state of the west, would still venture to defend the "allied" west, in terms of allies like Denmark despite the fact that the people of Denmark would loath people like Prof Feser since they are all extreme liberals. That is true principle.

    I genuinely wonder though Prof, what do you have in mind when you say "preserve the west" after correctly predicting this path it has been heading on for years m.

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    1. Hi Norm,

      I’m from Denmark. What do you mean when you say we are all extreme liberals?

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    2. Sorry Andreas, it was an obvious exaggeration, but mostly liberal isn't a stretch, I presume

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    3. Andreas I visited Denmark in the summer of 74. I had a great time. Danis

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    4. I was going to say Danish women are beautiful and highly intelligent. And they were very friendly. I think by liberal Norm meant your government provides a lot services to its citizens more so than we do in the usa.

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    5. No worries, Norm. I’m not offended, I was just curious.
      And I think it’s certainly fair to say that Danish society in many ways is quite liberal. But in other ways not so much. We have all the same differences of opinion here as you have in the US.

      I was just wondering, because your impression seems to be that Denmark (or West Europe in general) is more liberal leaning than the US?

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    6. Hi Andreas

      Let me offer my sincere apologies once again. I had no right to talk about your country in that way. You obviously have a profound love for it and that's admirable. Please accept this apology.

      My general sense of the political situation is that, atleast topics like defending the unborn and defending traditional marriage can be safely breached in the United States. Some semblance of a resistance . Is there anything comparable in Denmark.

      And I again I sincerely apologise for being dismissive initially.

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    7. In Denmark. abortion is free and legal up to 18 weeks.
      https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2024-06-10/denmark-government-enters-agreement-to-extend-right-to-free-abortion/
      Denmark calls itself a Welfare State, and provides many free services to its citizens, which are paid for by high taxes. So, yes, compared to the USA, Denmark is a liberal country. It provides its citizens with a very high standard of living. The link below goes into more detail. It also explains why it would be hard for other countries to copy its model.
      https://denmark.dk/society-and-business/the-danish-welfare-state

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    8. Norm,

      You really don´t have to apologize like that. I wasn´t offended at all. I would be much too thin-skinned to hang around on this blog if your comment was enough to make me upset.

      You can criticize Denmark all you want. Believe me, there is a lot to be critical about. You mention two very good issues, especially abortion. We do of course have abortion debate and an anti-abortion movement, but it is true that this most important of issues simply isn´t talked about as much here as it is in the US.

      I guess I am often just confused about what people are specifically talking about when they use the word liberalism. It seems often to lead to some pretty sweeping statements.

      Anyway, I appreciate some debate and different viewpoints, Norm. That is why I am here.

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  9. You obviously can't appeal to 'philosophy' simply as such over against democracy, since Rorty himself is as much a representative of (contemporary, modern, postmodern) 'philosophy' (and not just democracy) as Plato. So I fail to see what is supposed to be incoherent about Rorty's position. Rather, Ed's allegation of incoherence appears to be based on a false equation of 'philosophy' with a particular distillation of the Platonic-Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition within philosophy. (One is reminded here of Plato's references to Daedalus.) It seems hardly fair to Rorty.
    Ed has written a very nice book on Locke; I'd be most interested if he'd write a companion piece on Newman. A quote from Grammar of Assent:
    "Why we are so constituted that faith, not knowledge or argument, is our principle of action, is a question with which I have nothing to do; but I think it is a fact... [N]o religion yet has been a religion of physics or of philosophy. It has ever been synonymous with revelation. It never has been a deduction from what we know; it has ever been as assertion of what we are to believe. I has never lived in a conclusion; it has ever been a message, a history, or a vision. No legislator or priest ever dreamed of educating our moral nature by science or by argument. There is no difference here between true religion and pretended."
    For better or for worse, plenty of grist here for Rorty's mill, seems to me, from our latest Church doctor.

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    1. I can't make heads or tails of what Newman is about in this passage.

      Why we are so constituted that faith, not knowledge or argument, is our principle of action,

      I acted with knowledge and argument as my basis just yesterday; I'll do it again tomorrow.

      [N]o religion yet has been a religion of physics or of philosophy.

      Some would suggest that Buddhism is a religion of philosophy.

      No legislator or priest ever dreamed of educating our moral nature by science or by argument.

      The Jacobins thought they could.

      Newman is great. Sometimes he is waxing poetic when others take him to be literal. I suspect this is one.

      In any case, politics can't be the foundation of how and why you think X is good, and if you try to run it that way, it turns (quickly) into sheer will to act and power over others. Something else has to be deeper truth than how you do politics.

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    2. Dr. McPike, You need to write another philosophy book.

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    3. To explain Newman, so far as I understand him:
      Faith is rooted in what Newman calls real assent, which is to say, assent through the (affective) imagination, not just (intellectual) notional assent. So you can notionally ('theologically') grasp Buddhism, but insofar as you really assent to it in a religious way ('faith') it must become imaginatively (affectively, incarnately) real for you. Praxis, not just theory. I'm sure Buddhists would agree.
      The Jacobins, Newman would point out, only dreamt of moral education and rule by science and argument insofar as they really imagined (and didn't just notionally speculate) that such a thing was really feasible and what they were actually up to.

      On politics as foundation of the good, I certainly don't see how it entails "sheer will to act and power over others." Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite: Ultimately I must will to accommodate myself to my polity, precisely because I necessarily am not autonomous in relation to others and can't simply have power over them, even if (I think) I'm smarter (a potential Platonic philosopher king? -- ah, but Syracuse taught Plato to know better, just as Nazism taught Heidegger) than others.
      Insofar as politics is the culmination of ethics (as it is in the Aristotelian tradition), it certainly seems it can have/necessarily has a foundational role in relation to determining the good (or whatever happens to pass as the good). And the question is more about the details of how.

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    4. "Something else has to be deeper truth than how you do politics." -- I think that claim is susceptible of a very Rortyan reading. Yes, philosophy is engaged with deeper truths, but it is not meant, is not suited, to rule over politics. (Compare: the temporal sphere has relative autonomy from the religious sphere -- which is not an incoherent view.)

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    5. I'll add that Newman is not waxing poetic, he's waxing polemical in the passage quoted. He is arguing for the essentially dogmatic foundations of religion (Rorty would say the same for politics), as against specific proposals for rational/philosophical/scientific foundations. Aristotle would agree: it's no use arguing morality with a vicious man; only the man who has been rightly trained in virtue ('dogmatic' foundations, of a sort) can reason/judge rightly in moral and political matters.

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    6. David, thank you for a helpful exposition on Newman for this passage.

      Faith is rooted in what Newman calls real assent, which is to say, assent through the (affective) imagination, not just (intellectual) notional assent.

      I am going to quote what google offers about this:

      Cardinal Newman’s idea of real assent, detailed in his Grammar of Assent, is the personal, imaginative conviction given to concrete realities and lived experiences, rather than just abstract concepts. It engages the heart, will, and imagination, moving beyond "notional assent" (intellectual agreement) to deeply influence a person's life, actions, and beliefs.

      My commentary: A person is a wholesome, integrated and humane person, (living the good life qua human) when what he understands and reasons to be so about reality in his intellect coheres with what he loves with his will, what he longs for with his heart, and what holds his affections under the sway of his affective capacity, imagination, etc.

      The Church teaches that charity is a distinct virtue from faith: it is possible to lose charity through a sin, while not (yet) losing faith. This implies what he holds true (his assent to (part of) what IS) remains while he rejects its implication on his actions. This folds in well with the perennial philosophy that teaches that the will is a distinct faculty from the intellect, though of course the action of the intellect is critical to the action of the will: the operation of the intellect is a necessary but not sufficient act to determine the will. But also, that the person cannot be acting well (in the full and proper sense) if he is choosing (acting via his will) contrary to what his conscience tells him is right. That is be possible to act in a way that defies what we KNOW to be good in some real sense is necessary for there to be sin in the first place.

      Hence the wholly human good act necessarily entails a coherence of intellect and will together rightly apprehending and assenting to the good, respectively. The further happy human good act entails also the coherence of these with the affective, imaginative, and other faculties. The latter typically happens on occasion in the life of a person not yet habitually good, though often he rightly wills what he knows is good but does not (yet) feel like good - as the person starting to work out at the gym experiences. And it happens regularly in a person of true virtue, precisely because he has spent the work, effort, and suffering of subduing lower faculties to be obedient to the higher.

      To call the good, wholesome actions of such a man of virtue under the name "assent" puts a spotlight on ONE of the necessary elements of the complex outlined above, but (in my estimation) tends to obscure others. And it especially obscures the (typical) period of suffering that most of us must choose in order to get to the point where our heart, imagination, affections, and passions coordinate well with our mind and will in a coherent frame of good acted upon.

      If, rather, he only means to exclude (from being praiseworthy) those that say "Lord, Lord" but don't obey Jesus's commands, in the sense that they THINK (in some sense) that Jesus is Lord, but their chosen acts don't match up at all: it seems (to me) trivially true to say their "assent" isn't what it should be, but unhelpful to locate that flaw primarily in the imagination rather than the will.

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    7. On politics as foundation of the good, I certainly don't see how it entails "sheer will to act and power over others." Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite:

      In my estimation, it wouldn't entail it as a necessary result, but it would LEAD to it most probably. I will try to expand below.

      Why? Rorty's politics takes it to entail the opposite: Ultimately I must will to accommodate myself to my polity, precisely because I necessarily am not autonomous in relation to others and can't simply have power over them,

      What is the source of this "must"? Why MUST I? Well, the answer tends to run in one of two pathways: either (A) because it is impossible for ME to be happy if I don't, happiness doesn't run that way; or (B) because I am UNABLE to accomplish having everyone just serve me.

      Suppose we try out (B): one man may be stronger than every other (individual) man in the social group, but never will he be stronger than EVERY other man in the group if they all act together to quell him. Yet the extremely strong man (or the smart man, or the very smart, extremely strong man) might BELIEVE he could prevail over the whole by a threat of sufficient damage to others to make them unwilling to try to overcome him - similarly to the way a bear might successfully stave off a large pack of 30 wolves: probably that many wolves (if well trained, anyway) could bring the bear down, but if in the attempt they would lose 20 to grave injury, it isn't worth it to the pack, so they let him take the prize. Likewise the strong bully. Or, the smart con man may cleverly fool all to follow his rules that serve himself - or at least he may well think he can fool them (with at least some evidence he could be right). So, (B) doesn't seem necessarily true.

      What about (A)? Well, the problem here is that selecting (A) as the reason for the "must" JUST IS saying that there is some other foundation for "the good" (for me) than "whatever I happen to will or prefer, imposed on all". It requires a belief in some standard about what happiness consists in, a standard that isn't itself "that people follow the rules of society" , because (as we all know) some rules are duds and some social formats are horrifically unhappy for (most of) the people. So, "to follow the rules and willingly conform to the social prescriptives" is, per se, a means to something else considered to be "the good".

      If you (by bad philosophy about the good) ditch the very idea of that higher good for which wholesome social modeling is a means, and are left with the social norm ITSELF as the ultimate "good", then what you tend to get in the long run (or even fairly quickly) is a totalitarian state like in "1984" and/or a tyranny like in option (B) above that the ruler(s) pretend is "for society" but it's just a lie, and they rule all for themselves.

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    8. Note that when the tyrant above rules, he ISN'T ruling "for society" thus he certainly follows some other principle of the good than "for society". He may have arrived at that notion not by philosophy, but he sure won't have arrived at a GOOD one without philosophy.

      only the man who has been rightly trained in virtue ('dogmatic' foundations, of a sort) can reason/judge rightly in moral and political matters.

      I assume that your virtuous man, when he judges political matters, judges in part based on MORALS and that these are taken to be something that ought to rule over politics.

      David, I suspect we are not so much disagreeing about basic points, as talking at cross purposes. The philosophy of Aquinas (not faith, not revelation, not religion) held that to DO well meant knowing what is the good for man, and this required understanding the nature of man and the nature of society. Hence it is a prerequisite for right action (as a habit, rather than mere ad hoc accident) to have studied man and learned natural law: philosophy.

      He never pretended that the knowing IS right action, that intellect is what commands the body to act. No: intellect doesn't rule in the way of choice and command, that belongs to will: intellect's kind of "rule" is formal cause, not agent cause: "X is would be a good action", not "Do X." But it takes BOTH, intellect and will, not just the power of choice / command.

      I take it that what Newman means by "real assent" (as you describe it), he is talking about the action whereby a man knows the good intimately by all of the apprehensive powers AND wills / chooses / acts upon it. Real assent (where an action is demanded by good morals) implies a good action is taken, not just recognized. But such completion entails MANY impinging faculties, including intellect, imagination, and affective powers alongside the will, and there are ordering relations between their distinct operations, it is not merely one protoplasmic blob of "action". The part played by intellect - to be reliable and habitually sound - requires something of a knowledge of the principles of human good, therefore of human nature and of rules flowing from human nature: natural law. A man raised to be virtuous might not have formally studied natural law, but he still must be able to recognize the truths which natural law teaches us.

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    9. But doesn't it seem like there's a little circularity in this? It seems to suggest that one can only assent to faith if one first comprehends natural law, but then that one can only comprehend natural law if one is already "habituated" to it. So it seems like you must already know the good before you can understand it, so your intellect must already be predisposed to accept natural law before it can accept natural law. So, ultimately, any intellectual assent given to faith must be based on non-rational grounds; ie, the fact that I have already been raised in such a way as to be disposed to accept the natural law. That seems awfully close to saying that I can't accept the faith intellectually unless I've been emotionally primed or conditioned by my environment to want to accept it. Is there something I'm failing to understand here?

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    10. I agree. It is all very circular. We get back to the same point but the Christian philosopher, at the fork, grounds the circularity on a belief in God. Why can’t I just stop at this ‘natural’ orientation? This is always the tension - one is led to believe that the only thing that can stop a descent into depravity is a foundational belief in a God grounding goodness. But it doesn’t, empirically.

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    11. Tony: "I take it that what Newman means by "real assent" (as you describe it), he is talking about the action whereby a man knows the good intimately by all of the apprehensive powers AND wills / chooses / acts upon it."

      No. He is talking just about what Aquinas calls an act of judgment, an act of the intellect. When such acts are appropriately joined to imaginative apprehension (sth like apprehension beyond 'mere concepts' to 'lived experiences') they are rightly constituted not to cause action but to directly mediate the state of the affections, and thereby a person is in proximate potency to choose to perform particular (moral) acts (and this choosing may still be free, not necessitated). But I'm pretty sure the assent itself just refers to the intellectual act (judgment).

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    12. "trivially true to say their "assent" isn't what it should be, but unhelpful to locate that flaw primarily in the imagination rather than the will."

      So that's not Newman's point. He is trying to explain/defend the necessity of integrating the intellect and the imagination in order to effectively motivate the affections/passions and, finally, the will.

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    13. Tony: "What is the source of this "must"?"

      I think the prior question is, what is the nature of this 'must'? And for Rorty it's clearly a hypothetical must: as in, if I wish to be a 'normally functioning' member of my polity (as most people are certainly disposed to wish to be), then I have to act in a way that is 'normal' and 'functional,' and not (in the eyes of those I live with) just bat-sh*t crazy. I'm still 'free' to do what I want, based on my own convictions philosophical or otherwise. But certain choices might lead to my freedom being exercised within the confines of certain unpleasant institutions, or anyway, untoward consequences. (Kind of an obvious given.)

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    14. EXE: "To those that have, more shall be given; to those that have not, even what they have shall be taken away." There's certainly some circularity there, call it positive feedback. The natural law starts with nature, and sometimes positive feedback is in the nature of things. And certainly any intellectual assent (or intellectual anything) is necessarily environmentally primed or conditioned. "How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" But also if we are talking about assent to belief which constitutes the divine virtue of faith, then there is also a decisive role for grace to enliven, direct, illuminate the ever-present natural disposition to believe what is true. So it's not a vicious 'closed' circle.

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    15. David:

      I don't see how this goes anywhere, though. If I'm open to the idea of believing in God, but I see obstacles to the notion (IE, thinking there are inconsistencies in Scripture, for instance, or think that the evidence we have is too weak to make belief in the eschatological claims of the Church plausible), then what? I just need to hope that God sends a bolt from the blue to inspire me with the truth? To receive a feeling that bridges the gap between different possible interpretations of evidence, perhaps inspiring me to conclude to the less likely interpretation? All of this just seems like a riff on making a kind of irrational choice to believe in something you don't have sufficient evidence for. And what if I do this, then gradually come to the conclusion that I was wrong? The experience of others I've met online suggests that, regrettably, the attitude of many Christians is to work logically backwards on that question, presuming a priori that they are right and that there is strong enough and obvious enough evidence to compel belief, thus the other person MUST be dishonest and hard-heartedly refusing to see an obvious truth. This tends to happen despite the denier knowing full well that this is not the case, rendering any argument pointless.

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    16. EXE: You don't see where it goes? Well for starters it's pretty obvious where it goes: I answered your concern about circularity. Do you understand my answer or not? That's all I was addressing.

      (You can of course move on and change the subject and broaden the scope of the discussion, but I'm not interested in playing skeptical whack-a-mole with an intellectually unserious and dishonest interlocutor who can't take one issue at a time and actually address it before moving on to raise seven other likely spurious, certainly contentious objections just to show how clever and honest and well-versed in internet argumentation he is.)

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  10. Thanks for your X about Prof. Sandel He won philosophy's million dollar prize:
    https://berggruen.org/news/usd1-million-berggruen-philosophy-prize-awarded-to-michael-sandel

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  11. Excellent essay! Unfortunately will right in substance, There is no obvious way as a practical matter to implement this.. Is there a current political figure given to a Socratic post liberalism? Certainly not on the left and in the current Trump obsession not anyone on the right either.. There may have been a few ( Ron DeSantis in his better moments.. but his career is likely limited by The Trump hold on the Republicans.. Ben Sasse who unfortunately has an advanced cancer.. one would have thought JD Vance had potential but his ambition over managed his judgement and in his role of VP he has been obsequious in his support of Trump even when major principles are at stake..

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  12. Doc, I think it a safe assumption that you take the "correct" moral and philosophical worldview that the State should enforce to be Catholicism, no? In that case, am I correct in saying that you are essentially advocating for Integralism, or something much like it? The problem I have is that, well, these ideas have already been tried before, and with horrific results. Francoist Spain, Salazarist Portugal, and the Croatian Ustase all based their regimes on, or heavily incorporated, Traditional Catholic teaching and had very close ties to the Church. These were all repressive, dictatorial, and fascistic in various degrees, with two of them being outright allies to Hitler. Ignoring this history is like a Communist arguing for the goodness of Communism in the abstract while ignoring the history of the Soviet Union. It makes your argument look historically uninformed at best, outright dishonest at worst.

    Furthermore, you are in no better situation than the liberal as regards a universally-accepted basis for morality/law/politics/etc. It's true that none of the liberalisms ever gained full acceptance, but neither did Christendom and classical theism. To the extent that it did, that unity was imposed by force rather than by reason, making it just as baseless as Rorty's liberalism. Literally any worldview could serve as a basis for shared morality if it were imposed with sufficient violence on enough people. Of course, you believe it to be rationally demonstrable, and perhaps it is, but clearly you and yours are very ineffectual at convincing others of its truth, as evidenced by how alien it is to modernity. My overall point is that the kind of Christian Classical Theist worldview you pine for obtained its supremacy through force, and the only way you can reasonably hope to get it back is through force also. Are you in favor of that idea, Ed?

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    1. I tend to be wary of anything that look similar to integralism, but are these regimes the best that a catholic state can be or were they like that in part thanks to the particular situations that formed they?

      Suppose that the post-liberal philosopher king learns a thing or two with liberalism and formally puts in the constitution that Christ is the nation king, defines a few terms like "marriage", "woman" etc but overall operates similarly like what we have now, not necessarily criminalizing minorities or not using democracy as the principal source of legitimacy. Would thst be that bad?

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    2. Doc, I think it a safe assumption that you take the "correct" moral and philosophical worldview that the State should enforce to be Catholicism, no?

      No. Pretty sure that's what Prof. Feser would say. Not in the sense you're thinking.

      Take out the word "enforce" and you might be a little closer.

      Part of the problem with the Liberalism of Locke, Rousseau, and Rawls is that it pretends that it is possible to have a society that is neutral as to moral foundations, principles that underlie moral tenets, and so a government mustn't be in the business of enforcing the moral "theory" of some. It is wrong because EVERY governed society, every possible formal structure of rules, entails some supposed standards or principles - about which disputes arise. E.G. that the will of the majority prevails. Really? You mean, the majority cannot intend a moral evil, like slavery or Jim Crow laws? But more fundamentally, (as Nietzsche showed us) the very idea of "majority rule" is disputed by those who prefer to impose their will by force, who are perfectly happy with the law of the jungle. Some even assert it's "more moral".

      There's no such thing as a neutral order. Therefore ALL laws, as such, enforce the moral vision of some, and displace the competing moral vision of others.

      Part of the thesis of natural law is that some moral truths are true independently of religion, and can be discovered and proven without revelation or faith. A secondary part is that a valid proof doesn't imply that it will convince everyone: some are unable or unwilling to enter into the discussion without prejudice that impedes their assent. But a civil order that extensively utilizes natural law, while not being neutral about moral truths, need not be religiously oppressive when it enforces certain behavior (enforcing laws), nor when it promotes the views and thinking of those who espouse natural law, and demotes the views of those who oppose it.

      Ignoring this history is like a Communist arguing for the goodness of Communism in the abstract while ignoring the history of the Soviet Union. It makes your argument look historically uninformed at best, outright dishonest at worst.

      Between 325 and 1918, there were dozens, if not hundred's, of Christian regimes and social orders. There's a smorgasbord of examples, along with a massive amount of other factors than simply the prevailing local view of how the majority religion ought to influence governance. Most of them had elements of what WE think of as repressive forms, and yet many of them were also less repressive than the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman empires before them. It would be simplistic and grossly unhistorical to claim that every single one of them represented failed states on account of religious repression.

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    3. If some moral truths can be discovered independently of revelation or faith, why must the fork be taken and natural law, etc be *grounded* in faith ? It is absurd, to me, to give example of majoritarian evil, that was accepted and performed by Christians, in an argument ultimately meant to show that Christianity or Religion is our only way to ground morality or our moral intuitions. It is empirically not a deterrent to tyrannical evil, so why not cultivate this moral intuition in a Rortyian self-grounding sense? Empirically, again, some of our worst regimes are nominally Christian and the church has supported it. It would be better if we were humble in what we can prove and were communally committed to our better angels than thinking we have to prove foundations in order to be moral -and none of us typically behave this way, regardless.

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    4. I have never heard Dr. Feser ( or anyone else with a Ph.D) referred to as "Doc."

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    5. (1/2)
      **Part of the problem with the Liberalism of Locke, Rousseau, and Rawls is that it pretends that it is possible to have a society that is neutral as to moral foundations, principles that underlie moral tenets, and so a government mustn't be in the business of enforcing the moral "theory" of some**

      About Locke, this is just wrong. Locke did have foundational values that he did not consider negotiable, his neutrality is about not enforcing a RELIGION, specifically, not about having purely neutral morals. Rousseau was similar, advocating for a "civil religion", where the only tenets enforced were to be the belief in a Supreme Being, an afterlife, that the wicked will suffer and the just flourish, that the laws are sacred, etc. Again, he was only keen to avoid sectarianism, not trying to establish "total neutrality". Rawls is the only one of whom this is even a remotely accurate characterization, but even then, I think it's a mis-statement of his argument. Rawls comes from the position that it isn't reasonable to expect anyone to accept someone else's "comprehensive doctrine" as the basis of law - IE, expecting Catholics to accept Islamic principles or Muslims to accept atheist principles is not a thing you can expect to work in a pluralistic society. Therefore the best thing to do is to rely on the public political culture as the source of ideas.

      **Part of the thesis of natural law is that some moral truths are true independently of religion, and can be discovered and proven without revelation or faith. A secondary part is that a valid proof doesn't imply that it will convince everyone: some are unable or unwilling to enter into the discussion without prejudice that impedes their assent.**

      True, but you're downplaying the extent of the problem here. It's not just that Natural Law arguments fail to convince EVERYONE - you can hardly expect any argument to do that, however persuasive. The problem is that it convinces almost NOBODY anymore. Outside of the intellectual silo in which Catholic Philosophy operates, they have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever. Those who do investigate them generally conclude that they are wrong or seriously flawed, and that doesn't just mean cheap Reddit Atheists, it includes serious intellects like Sobel, so it can't simply be dismissed casually as fools who don't understand it. If some people aren't convinced, that doesn't have to mean anything. But if a theory convinces extremely few people, that has far more serious implications for it. Is it really likely that nearly EVERYONE is so stupid, immature, or mentally corrupt that they are incapable of seriously evaluating your arguments?

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    6. (2/2)

      **There were a variety of Christian regimes...many of them were less repressive than the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman empires before them.**

      Well, for one thing, I wasn't asking about those regimes, I was asking about the known attempts to implement Political Catholicism in a modern society, since those are the examples most similar to the kind of society that would have to be created if Feser's ideas were implemented. The vastly different material circumstances that we live in compared to, say, Medieval France make any comparison with modern liberalism difficult. However, I still think your historical analysis is a bit head-tilting. First off, you're using ambiguous language by saying that an unspecified "many" were less repressive than three specific pagan societies. With this wording you could cherry-pick and end up comparing a Christian society from 1900 with a pagan one from 500 BC. That hardly seems fair. Secondly, your examples aren't great - Persia in particular was very progressive for its day, and much better for religious minorities than any Medieval Christian realm. Rome and Egypt, I don't know if the modern concept of "progressivism" is applicable to them, but at the very least the lack of a totalizing religion, one that views all others as illegitimate and the subjugation of nonbelievers, would inherently lead to them being at least more religiously tolerant than most Christian states. Thirdly, you're misconstruing my position by claiming that I call these places "failed states" just because I disapprove of them. My point was that we have evidence of what Feser's ideas lead to when they're implemented IN THE MODERN CONTEXT, and failing to address that historical evidence is just plain dishonest. If you propose a political idea, and that idea has been tried before to bad results, then failing to acknowledge that is either ignorant or dishonest.

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    7. To Talmid:

      "are these regimes the best that a catholic state can be or were they like that in part thanks to the particular situations that formed they?"

      Honestly? I don't know. I'll grant that they don't provide absolutely conclusive evidence that a Catholic State needs to be bad, but I'd argue they are significant circumstantial evidence, especially in light of the fact that we don't have evidence of Political Catholicism leading to good states. And in the sake of fairness, remember, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If such nuance is permitted to Political Catholicism, then it also needs to be afforded to Communism. In fact, I would say that it is quite plausible to argue that much of the starvation, suffering, and death seen and so often condemned in Soviet Russia, Maoist China, Castro's Cuba, etc are examples of this. After all, they were generally poor, underdeveloped countries devastated by civil war and often directly attacked (militarily, economically, or both) by Western powers in an attempt to hinder them.

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    8. "But if a theory convinces extremely few people, that has far more serious implications for it."
      Serious implications, you say? Sounds serious. And vague.

      "Is it really likely that nearly EVERYONE is so stupid, immature, or mentally corrupt that they are incapable of seriously evaluating your arguments?"
      I suppose you're seriously(?) inviting the question of the nature of the particular historical situation (situatedness) of human reason, and the extent of the endemic inherent elements of blindness (ideologically motivated confirmation bias or whatever) that might well be inherent in a given socio-historical context...

      I guess we could investigate by means of an example: What might your allegedly 'serious intellect' (i.e., dude with an academic soapbox?) Sobel have to say in defense of the claim that natural law arguments "have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever"?

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    9. David McPike:

      Fine, then let me be more precise. If your arguments are unpersuasive to the vast majority of people, including educated people, then there are a few reasons why that might be. Sure, it is possible that your arguments are actually flawless and everyone is simply bigoted, biased, stupid, morally depraved, etc. But if you are even slightly honest, you should also acknowledge the possibility that the lack of persuasion is because of weaknesses in your argument - IE, that it may not be as strong or valid as you think. Refusal to consider this possibility is not wisdom, it is simple chauvinism. And, stepping aside from the question of being right for a moment, even if you are 100% correct and Natural Law is totally true, it being unpersuasive would STILL have very serious implications, because it would mean there is no hope of you ever converting society at large through argumentation. Your only path forward would be to seize state power and impose the Faith by brute force. Thus you would be committed to authoritarian politics - surely a serious implication.

      Sobel didn't need to defend the claim that Natural law is culturally irrelevant, and neither do I. It's not a claim, it's an observable fact - liberalism is everywhere ascendant and has been for 300 years. All of our arguments and disputes are framed in terms of personal rights, liberties, freedom, equality, and so on. Most arguments in the public space consist of people wrangling over whose position best respects and embodies these principles, and anyone who publicly contradicts them makes himself a social pariah. Even the Church itself often prefers to speak in terms of "human rights" rather than ends, essences, and natures. If you doubt the veracity of my words, I cordially invite you to go to any public policy discussion (outside of a custom-designed Catholic space) and attempt to advance a position based on natural law. My point is that Intellectual Catholicism only survives within a hermetically-sealed bubble, refusing to engage with modernity in a serious way. We can debate about whether Natural Law is true, but that it is culturally irrelevant at the present moment is beyond reasonable dispute.

      By the way, your attempt to throw doubt on the intellectual significance of Jordan Howard Sobel, one of the most prominent philosophers of religion in a long time, doesn't say good things about your knowledge of the subject. William Lane Craig and Robert Koons both had tremendous respect for the man.

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    10. The problem is that it convinces almost NOBODY anymore. Outside of the intellectual silo in which Catholic Philosophy operates, they have virtually no cultural relevance or persuasive power whatsoever.

      You appear to be hopelessly ignorant of cultural connections with ideas and social standards. Just for example, Just War Theory, first articulated by Catholic philosophers, continues to strongly influence social discussion of major political events. In the lead-up to the 2003 Iraq war, the public discussion, including by President Bush and by many of his supporters and detractors, explicitly called forth "just war theory" by name or explicitly invoked its major tenets. Many have done similar things with respect to more current events in Ukraine, Israel and Gaza, Iran, and Venezuela, (though not Trump, as far as can tell).

      Secondly, the preferences of classical liberalism, which swayed (to the point of control) all of modern statehood until recently, relies upon a number of premises that were held universally only because Europe was universally Christian and had been for many centuries. So, while said classical liberalism contains within it the seeds of the repudiation of Christian social norms in detail, it couldn't have "persuaded" the tens of millions without its Christian-based presumptions and their Christian ethos. It would never have convinced them if it's ultimate rejection of Christian norms had been made explicit up front.

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    11. Tony: "You appear to be hopelessly ignorant of cultural connections with ideas and social standards."

      No, no, Tony. YOU appear to be hopelessly ignorant of the FACT that it's an observable fact that the facts that EXE has observed have no need of being defended, as if they were claims that need to be defended, because they are not; they are observable facts. You idiot. And Jordan Howard Sobel would concur, which proves that he is a real intellect.

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    12. [Sorry, not "a real intellect"; rather "a serious intellect."]

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    13. EXE: "Fine, then let me be more precise."

      *I* certainly won't be the one to stop you from being more precise. In fact let me help you be more precise: did you perhaps mean to say, "let me be more *verbose* (while changing the subject and badly failing to respond to your argument)"?

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    14. Alright, so while I actually agree with the idea that a sound basis for morality and government must ultimately lie on philosophical foundations, and that a "perfectly neutral" government is impossible, I disagree with conservatism and natural law theory and am willing to philosophically debate them. I do also agree with a few commenters here that trying to implement certain ideas, in practice, has tended to lead to dictatorships. I'm jumping in now because I've wanted to discuss natural law theory for a while.

      So first, I do think that even if natural law theory is a largely Catholic thing, appeals to "naturalness" or "unnaturalness" as ethically relevant, are fairly common, even if less well thought out. (And I suspect most people's ethical views, including those of the "average" liberal, aren't very well-thought out. For instance, I personally tend to be dubious of appeals to "human rights" or "dignity," at least as something absolute and fundamental, because they often seem ultimately arbitrary without deeper foundations). I have my doubts about Tony's idea that the original acceptance of the premises of classical liberalism depended on Christianity, or at least that such a dependence was necessary and there was no way a hypothetical non-Christian Europe could have accepted them. I can't really argue for that because I'm not too familiar with the history, though.

      I also am concerned with what's true, even if it's unpopular (some of my own moral views are also unpopular and I doubt I can convince many people of them...), so I'll provide an argument against Natural Law Theory. Well, for now at least, it's mostly just the quick point that while sophisticated statements of NLT do get around some common objections (such as wearing glasses being morally acceptable), I think they still seem to generate the result that some acts generally considered acceptable, such as walking on one's hands or grabbing objects with one's feet, are immoral.

      Roughly, in humans, the function of the hands appears to be grabbing objects, not walking, and the function of the feet appears to be locomotion, not grabbing objects, but the aforementioned acts interfere with those functions. Also, grabbing objects and walking are both generally conscious, intentional acts instead of generally constant functions such as sight or hair growth (noting this as some argue that interfering with the former is different from interfering with the latter). If I'm misunderstanding NLT, I'd like to know. Or a natural law theorist could bite the bullet and argue walking on one's hands or grabbing objects with one's feet are immoral, even if only slightly. I doubt many people would accept that, though.

      And again, while many or even most people don't think deeply about their moral views, I suspect it could be a symptom of something deeper that some philosophers have also argued: teleology (at least outside the mind) is just not what is important morally. I believe Dr. Feser has argued that human teleology is the only way to ground morality objectively, but I disagree. For instance, I think that some mental states have objective value. (I haven't provided an argument that they do have objective value yet. I could if asked, though I don't want to get too off-topic. I will note that several philosophers have provided sophisticated arguments for this position). There are issues that still need to be resolved, but I believe NLT also faces issues, so I don't think the bare fact of "facing issues," is, purely by itself, a reason to accept NLT and reject other objectivist theories. I'm just trying to give a reason why some rational moral objectivists might reject NLT.

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    15. There are multiple confusions and conflations in your post.

      Firstly, Just War Theory is about the ONLY part of Natural Law Theory that has any cultural relevance at all, and even then it's only one competing voice among many. So, you are technically right, but you're cherry-picking the only successful child in the family of failures. What about the Matter/Form distinction? The Four Causes? Thomas' concept of motion? Nobody, not even you, uses any of these things when trying to explain anything in the world. Whenever anything serious happens to you, you turn to modern science. You only deploy Thomism to defend your religion.

      Secondly, Natural Law is not Christendom, so the putative reliance of liberalism on Christianity wouldn't mean anything for the relevance of Natural Law. Protestants, for instance, don't use this much. Secondly, being historically relevant in the rise of liberalism doesn't mean that Liberalism still needs it, and even if it did, that's absolutely not the same thing as being taken intellectually seriously in the modern day. At BEST, your argument here could only prove that Natural Law was part of a historical worldview that was eventually replaced by modernity. That doesn't somehow grandfather in the relevance of NLT.

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  13. The rejection of "Calliclean postliberalism" is most welcome. But our particular moment has to reckon not with e.g. Rorty's interpretation of what "liberalism" is, or with some other theoretical interpretation of our social life, but with the actual and concrete structures and institutions of our society, government, and laws. Anyone who wants something different must not only say what he wants them to be replaced with. He must propose a just and reasonable method for change, as well as show why his method would help bring about the change he wants, and why his method would bring about peace and safety - not just virtue. This kind of proposal was one thing Socrates never seemed to care about.

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    1. Anyone who wants something different must not only say what he wants them to be replaced with. He must propose a just and reasonable method for change, as well as show why his method would help bring about the change he wants, and why his method would bring about peace and safety - not just virtue.

      A total proposal would entail all that. But it's a large project, and a large discussion, (book length at a minimum), and most people won't take that much time, especially when the later 3/4 of the proposal won't be given hearing because you have a problem on page 2. There's a place for breaking up the larger picture into component pieces, where you might get some degree of agreement on part 1 through a long round of discussion, THEN move on to parts 2, 3,...17. And maybe part 4 needs to be tweaked in virtue of the partial agreement you got in parts 1, 2 and 3.

      Arguably, ANY method that brings about virtue will include peace and safety. (Though the converse is not true.) Justice is part of virtue.

      A complete overhaul of the whole order is difficult on so many levels that it is hard to even describe the difficulty, much less solve it all. Almost always it's better to keep what portions you can, eliminate in their entirety only modest portions, and then revise others.

      An absolute and complete overhaul of all norms (touching both personal morality as well as social morality and governmental forms), is implausible as to its rightness even apart from the question of how to get there justly. One of the advantages of the American break-off from Britain is that it was not a revolution against norms, nor even a total revolution against simply the prior governmental order: the colonial governments were left in place, and the form of the US federal union borrowed many of the elements of those tributary streams of governance norms. And left personal moral norms alone, as well as most social norms.

      But more than anything, that change incorporated rather than repudiated the common thinking of the common man that "we can rule ourselves", which Britain objected to. The postliberal proposals (plural) must tackle the problem that what is needed is indeed at least party new, foreign thinking to the common man, it entails a level of persuasion / education that the American patriots didn't need to accomplish. So, in my view, any postliberal proposal must allow for generational periods of time, during which intervening conditions will necessarily affect the later course. '

      A complete proposal right now is probably out of order for practical consideration.

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  14. https://x.com/i/status/2014432547921432736

    This is a great article on why Vance shouldn't be invited to the Pro Life Match movement.

    Yet Vance's presence will be celebrated by figures like Dr Chad Pecknold.

    Prof retweeted this article and is so far the only person from the post liberal camp to even take a strong stance against this administration. That is admirable.

    And I with Prof ,condemn attempts to associate Dr Pecknold with being a Nazi , it's atrocious, yet it is clear to me that there has been no significant and direct pushback on him from within the post liberal camp.

    I have found figures like Dr Michael Pakaluk who have been critical of aspects of Post Liberalism to be much more consistent on the issue of abortion.

    Sohrab Ahmari has in fact defended in JD's capitulation during the 2024 campaign.

    Despite my love ,admiration and appreciation for Prof and his work, which I will continue to recommend for the rest of my life,( I even got my room mate to consider buying immortal soul),

    I can't help but get this sinking feeling that sometimes it seems like,

    "For my enemies, the natural law, For my personal friends, everything."

    With the greatest of respect to Prof :)

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    1. The conservative movement is controlled by libertarian billionaires and mid-sized employer lobbies. That is the strongest faction within the movement, the one that mostly funds things and sets the agenda. However, we live in a democracy, and they have to actually win elections to pass their agenda. Libertarianism is usually difficult to sell to the public in a undiluted form. Immigration restriction polls very well and has widespread appeal. Its how Trump won the nomination in 2016, how he won the general election in 2024, and its consistently his best issue in polling, even when his poll numbers are down. Going to the right on immigration arguably saved the Republican Party after Bush (who was pro-immigration) destroyed the party's credibility. In contrast, pro-life does not poll well. A majority of voters are pro-choice and have consistently been so for decades. Its extremely difficult for pro-lifers to change these numbers because it requires persuading people to limit their personal options in a realistic emergency scenario for abstract philosophical reasons. Opposing immigration requires no similar sacrifice or moral abstraction if you are a native born white citizen who is already inclined to distrust foreigners and "expert" pro-immigration economists. If abortion bans with real teeth were on the table, the Republicans could expect to face an electoral wipeout. So while the libertarians in charge of the GOP benefit from the donations, activist energy, and votes of pro-lifers, the cons of actually delivering on pro-life policies in a serious way outweigh the pros.

      I think religious conservatives and pro-lifers need to realize that someone can be opposed to egalitarian gender roles or transgenderism, yet also be irreligious and pro-choice. If there is a revival of "social conservativism" in the US, it may take that form rather than a religious revival. The US would look more like modern Japan, Korea, Italy, or Portugal than the Bible Belt or Catholic immigrant enclaves in the 50s.

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    2. I think it's a strong point in general, that since this administration has already been willing to do wildly unpopular things, they should also be willing to stand up for the sanctity of life.

      Aa Prof said

      "Now look at the polling on tariffs and annexing Greenland. The administration is quite willing to ignore public opinion on issues it actually does care about."

      At the same time Prof has also criticised the govt precisely on grounds that tariffs and Greenland would cause an electoral bloodbath which I agree with.

      It's also true that taking this strong action on the abortion issue would also cause an electoral bloodbath.

      So, I guess Prof should just come out and say that protecting the unborn is worth having an electoral blood bath, because he is definitely implying this.

      I don't know what to make of this, what if the electoral blood bath causes even worse policy to be enacted by the democrats.

      This is one of the few issues where Prof is very weak pragmatically speaking. I think he should just come out and say that he would tolerate an electoral bloodbath to save unborn lives.

      But then he must explain why this is the better alternative overall.

      I also tend to favour strict action like this on abortion but I don't have any answer when people say it will cause an electoral bloodbath.

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    3. Interesting. Unfortunately, people generally are pretty resistant to understanding and dealing with the realities of their situation. This goes both ways, of course - the Democratic party base has been furious with their leadership for well over a year now over their unwillingness to accept that the grassroots now wants them to cut ties with their neoliberal donor class, drive substantially to the left, and stop being scared of the label "socialist". Then again, I wonder if acknowledging this is particularly difficult for a conservative Catholic position? Maybe not, maybe I just have an unfairly negative view. But it seems to me that it would be hard for a conservative Catholic or other social conservative to truly accept that the majority of people absolutely cannot be won over to their positions, given how much importance they place on other people believing those positions too.

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    4. Dr Chad Pecknold also retweeted this tweet of Matt Walsh

      "In my entire life we have never had anyone in the White House who would ever talk about abortion in these terms, or even talk about it at all. If you’re a conservative and you can’t appreciate this, I don’t know what to tell you. You’re just determined to be mad no matter what. Great stuff from Vance."

      Your friends think "you are determined to be mad no matter what", Prof

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    5. I think he should just come out and say that he would tolerate an electoral bloodbath to save unborn lives.

      But then he must explain why this is the better alternative overall.


      I don't get what you think "electoral bloodbath" implies in this context.

      The SC at this point turned abortion back to the states. A presidential extremely unpopular decision that even first term abortions is not allowable would have virtually no impact on "saving unborn lives". It's one thing to stand on principle to have an effect in one area even though it has really problematic effects in other areas. But to NOT have any appreciable effect even in the one area you're trying to repair?

      An electoral bloodbath would result in pro-life republicans LOSING in most state houses. Again, directly contrary to the object of "saving unborn lives", since those are the legislatures that could save said lives.

      In my opinion, the obvious place where Vance (and Trump) could have held the pro-life line is to repudiate in vitro fertilization methods. Here, (a) there is SOME degree of good that a federal rule might have an effect - if not phrased in terms of "but you abort all those humans". And also (b) such a position wouldn't even be all that unpopular: sure, it would be EXTREMELY unpopular with the people who actually are involved in in-vitro stuff, but that's only about 2% of the population. Not enough to swing most state houses that could be swung. (CA, NY, MA, and CT can't be moved pro-life-wards anyway, and TX, WY, MT, MO, MS, and AL wouldn't change majorities on such a repudiation.) Vance and Trump gave away an easy plank to keep, for virtually no real benefit: I fear it shows Vance's internal commitments in a really bad light. (Not so much Trump, who never was a real pro-lifer as such.)

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    6. Tony I agree, IVF, was something that they didn't have to endorse and even positively taken a stand against the blatant commodification of human life which would have not been so unpopular.

      I just wanted Prof to clarify what are the consequences of backlash he is willing to tolerate.

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  15. I just saw the news, and I just can't bring myself to comment on Prof. Feser's thoughtful post.

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  16. At the end of the day though,

    I don't want to be someone sowing discord. At the end of the day, how someone handles personal associations is a personal matter m

    Maybe I should be spending less time online.

    It's just in my nature to point out inconsistencies because that's the only way we can improve.

    I apologise for being a prick.

    I'll take a break from commenting here for a while.

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  17. "Maybe I should be spending less time online."
    All of us should be spending less time online.

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