A marvelous
address by @Pontifex that condemns the pathologies of both the woke left and
the jingoist right. Against the left, he denounces “the so-called ‘right to
safe abortion,’” warns of “a subtle form of religious discrimination against
Christians” by which they are “restricted in their ability to proclaim the
truths of the Gospel for political or ideological reasons,” and decries “a new
Orwellian-style language…which, in an attempt to be increasingly inclusive,
ends up excluding those who do not conform to the ideologies that are fueling
it.” Against the right, he warns of “excessive nationalism," affirms
"the importance of international humanitarian law," and notes that “a
diplomacy that promotes dialogue and seeks consensus among all parties is being
replaced by a diplomacy based on force… peace is sought through weapons as a
condition for asserting one’s own dominion." And he decries the fact that
on every side of our political culture and social media, “language is becoming
more and more a weapon with which to deceive, or to strike and offend
opponents” rather than used “to express distinct and clear realities
unequivocally.”
(From Twitter/X)
Another part
of the superb address by @Pontifex that calls for comment is a passing remark
he makes about capital punishment. He expresses the hope that “efforts are made
to abolish the death penalty, a measure that destroys all hope of forgiveness
and renewal.” This is brief but
significant. A few points:
First, as my
longtime readers know, I think it has been a mistake for recent popes to call
for complete abolition of capital punishment. The first and most important
problem here is that in the case of Pope Francis in particular, several of his
statements on the topic were so extreme that they seemed to imply that the death
penalty is per se or intrinsically evil. That would be heterodox, because it
contradicts the consistent teaching of scripture and all previous popes.
Neither John Paul II nor Benedict XVI taught such a thing or said anything that
implied it. And neither does Pope Leo in this recent statement. He appeals
instead to a certain prudential consideration – and a very important one that I’ll
comment on in a moment – without making the mistake of implying that the death
penalty is inherently wrong.
Second, the
reason I think that the call for complete abolition is a mistaken prudential
judgment is that I think that keeping the death penalty on the books as an
option in at least some cases remains essential to protecting the public. This
has nothing whatsoever to do with a bloodthirsty desire to find some rationale
for killing people (contrary to a crude calumny often flung at me). It has to
do with a number of empirical considerations, such as the following.
Though the social
scientific arguments are a matter of controversy, there remains a strong case
for holding that the death penalty has significant deterrence value. There are
also contexts in which the most dangerous murderers remain a threat to others
even when imprisoned. For example, they sometimes murder other prisoners or
guards, or (in the case of mobsters) they order murders from behind prison
walls. Since they are already in prison, there is no way to deter them from
such actions without the potential threat of the death penalty. There are also
cases in which prosecutors find the threat of capital punishment invaluable. For
example, murderers who face the possibility of execution will sometimes
cooperate (by revealing the identities of dangerous accomplices who remain at
large, for example) in exchange for getting a lighter sentence. Abolishing
capital punishment removes this essential tool for protecting the public. And so
on.
Unfortunately,
churchmen these days never address such considerations. They have no response
and just ignore them. Reflexive opposition to the death penalty has by
repetition been so “baked in” to the standard rhetoric that they just repeat it
rather thoughtlessly. I don’t expect this to change any time soon, but at least
Pope Leo has so far not been as extreme and irresponsible in his rhetoric on
this topic as his predecessor was. And this brings me to the next, and very important,
point which is:
Third, Pope
Leo does not appeal in his address to rhetoric about human dignity. John Paul
II did that, though always in a qualified way that made it clear that he was
not saying that the death penalty was always or intrinsically contrary to human
dignity. Francis did it in a rhetorically extreme and reckless way that did
imply that it is inherently contrary to human dignity. Benedict’s approach, by
contrast, was to appeal to another consideration, namely that refraining from
executing the offender leaves open the possibility of his repentance. And that,
rather than an appeal to human dignity, is the consideration Leo raises in his
address.
This is very
important. The appeal to the possibility of repentance has always, in my view,
been the only really serious argument against capital punishment. And it is the
only one that has strong roots in the tradition. The fixation on capital
punishment’s alleged conflict with human dignity is a modern innovation (and a theologically
problematic one, as I have argued elsewhere).
Now, even
the appeal to the possibility of repentance is not, in my opinion, an absolutely
compelling argument. For one thing, it is an argument that many in the
tradition have considered but reject. For example, St. Thomas Aquinas considers
it but rejects it as “frivolous,” on the grounds that someone who is at all
likely to repent in the first place would be more likely to be moved to
repentance by the fact that he will soon be executed, not less. Another
consideration is that it is not just murderers, but also their potential
victims, whose repentance we need to worry about. Suppose someone would have
repented of his sins had he not been murdered. If the threat of the death
penalty really would (for the reasons given above) have prevented his murderer
from killing him, then abolishing the death penalty also closes the door to
repentance for some people (namely the victims of murder).
Hence,
whether to keep the death penalty on the books remains, of its very nature, a matter
of prudential judgment about which reasonable people can disagree. There is
simply no good case for speaking peremptorily as if it should absolutely never
be an option (much less for treating it as intrinsically evil). All the same,
Pope Leo’s more sober and traditional style of opposition to it is a welcome development.
(From Twitter/X)
Since people keep asking about torture in the twitter comments section, and since I have thought about it a little, I'll share my old comment again, so people can discuss it,
ReplyDeleteI think it would strengthen the case for the death penalty by pointing out why certain methods of punishment we find too gruesome for our times.
For example to show that a punishment like rectal feeding (used by the CIA) is intrinsically evil is quite difficult. But I think Fr Brian Harrison in article has a good general argument against it where he mentions that torture could attract sexual perverts. I think it can also facilitate tendencies like a lust for violence and domination over other people (This similar to what Augustine thought about gladiator fights)
One could expand on it by pointing out that in our times such things could easily go viral on video camera due to the widespread prevalence of such technology and the general tendency to record things for the sake of views , guards themselves could do it or could be bribed to do and the overall effect on society would be to lend legitimacy a kind of legitimacy to such disordered desires.
Couldn't a similar argument be made against the death penalty? I would say it can be made against certain methods but not all.
For example , to apply a classical natural law analysis, the rectum is responsible for expelling waste from the body, waste which ought not to be discharged anywhere but in its proper place as it is disease prone, foul smelling etc. By nature this is one of those act which requires that the person have control over that faculty such as to avoid stinking up a place. That is why it's one of the first activities that is introduced to us and that old people feel embarassed to ask for assistance as they lose motor control.
Any action rectal feeding or anything else involving the rectum, exercises a kind of control or degree of power over an individual that is extremely unusual, and this would legitimise such kind of lust for control. I mentioned how things go viral.
In contrast something like choking (hanging) or lethal injection represents a degree of control that is mundane, it could of course be something that triggers people's lust for violence but at the same time something like a choke hold is a routine part of formal martial arts and self defence or subduing a criminal, it can be classified as something that a person ought to know precisely for the purposes of self defence.It's something that already is very common in society and thus death by hanging or lethal injection wouldn't "by itself" involve facilitating the promotion of disordered tendencies. It's an act that is already mainstream Someone with a disordered attraction to it could just as easily come across it in other places. In contrast , the viralization of a punishment like rectal feeding is what would make a fringe act mainstream and thus ought to be prohibited.
Dr David Decosimo also has an article on torture which aI think is good.
I think that is why there is provision in US law against cruel and unusual punishment.
Thank you for your comment. I'm actually against death penalty, and I think that an intentional act of using torture is not justifiable even if it's used for the sake of retribution since torture is a lesser form of harm than killing people, hence in principle, torture should be allowed if the understanding of retribution is giving pain proportional to the crime. But, if one is against the idea of torture as a form of punishment because it's intrinsically evil to directly torture people (even those who committed crimes), then it follows that the same would be true with an intentional act of killing human beings, even done for the sake of punishment.
DeleteIt seems to me that you have at least two points that are raised here about torture as well.
1. How it can affect or scandalize many people
2. Choking is permissible in other situations, hence choking (hanging) is not intrinsically evil unlike with torture.
With 1, intrinsically evil actions are not morally wrong based on how they scandalize others, it's wrong by virtue of its moral object. It is, in itself, contrary to reason and goodness. With 2, I am actually thinking about it, but there is a part of me that I'm not convinced about this (unless my idea of intrinsically evil actions are mistaken).
It seems that just because one physical act can be justified in other situations, it doesn't follow that the physical act is justified in principle. To use one example, someone may have an abortion, but instead of the type of abortion that dismembers human beings, etc, they proceeded with C-section, removed the fetus, leading to the death of the fetus, even if the woman's health is not in imminent danger.
This seems to be intrinsically evil, even if the action performed is not similar to the worse types of abortion. This is still a direct act of killing a human being. If one will say that this is not intrinsically evil or wrong based on moral object, but that it's wrong based on circumstances because of negative effects outweighing the positive effects, I'm not convinced about it. Consider a hypothetical situation where a terrorist, who happens to be pro-choice, asks the pregnant woman to have C-section to remove the fetus and let the fetus die and that's the only way the terrorist will not perform killing of thousands of people (and let's say we know it anyway that he is faithful to his words). It seems that even the pregnant woman can't do this even though the more people can actually be saved.
So, some physical acts like C-section during the time it's not necessary for the mother leading to the death of the fetus (still considered as abortion) is intrinsically evil, and its wrong based on its moral object. However, doing C-section as the necessary way to save the mother has a different moral object.
Just as saying that the physical act of removing the child in times it's not necessary in C-section is intrinsically evil doesn't imply that the same physical act is wrong in all situations, it seems that arguments like the intentional act of killing criminals being intrinsically evil does not necessarily mean that all physical acts are always wrong. It's just that, they have different moral object just as I think it's intrinsically evil for someone to choke an innocent human being (I'm not sure if you would think that this is intrinsically evil).
Where I am really at right now on death penalty is the proper moral evaluation of death penalty in terms of moral object, intention, and circumstances.
Thank you.
Chris, I'm glad you're thinking in terms of acts that are intrinsically evil, such that circumstances around them don't change their character, they remain evil even if surrounded by goods like good consequences.
DeleteHowever, your specific example is undermined by the fact that abortion is the killing of a child while in utero, whereas once you do a C-section, the child is no longer in utero, it is born. Killing a child after the c-section is just plain old, standard murder that all places used to say is illegal (even if they didn't have a law against abortion), and most US states will prosecute as murder now, even if they consider abortion legal.
It seems that just because one physical act can be justified in other situations, it doesn't follow that the physical act is justified in principle.
It is right to be cautious of saying a "physical act is justified in some situations", as the "justice" of an act requires that it be a moral human act, and this requires it be upright as to ALL THREE of the 3 fonts of the moral act. And the point is that "a human act" is NEVER rightly and fully described when you have only described the physical aspects of the act, alone. Example: suppose that a person describes "the act" of pulling your index finger toward your palm. That's a physical description, but it doesn't (yet) amount to the description of a human act (it could just as well be an act of a chimpanzee) without the 3 fonts captured. If you happen to have a pistol in your hand and the pistol is pointed at a human, then "pulling your finger toward your palm" is really "pulling the trigger". But that's still not "the act" from a human person angle, as it doesn't describe the object, motive, or circumstances. If the pistol is pointing at a rapist trying to attack, and you are defending your daughter, the object of the act is to damage the rapist enough quell him, the motive is to secure safety (and, hopefully, time to get the police to arrest him), and the circumstances (the rapist removed any other weapons from within reach, there's nobody else around to help, etc) all together determine the HUMAN act "to shoot the attacking rapist". The base level of analysis, before you get to motive and circumstances, is "the species" of the act, it's intrinsic nature, and that is given by the physical description together with its object: in this case, to fire the gun so as to damage the attacker sufficiently.
The physical alone is not sufficient to specify the act (as a human act) because it does not determine the object of the act, the object provides the species of the act.
It is true that when you have specified "the act" by its physical description plus the object of the act, then that humanly specified act is now either either good, neutral, or evil as to its species. An act evil as to its species is evil in every case, regardless of how upright its motive and how many good consequences. It is only for acts that are good or neutral as to species (because of its object) do we go on to their motives and circumstances to analyze to see if "the act" is good in its totality.
Good day!
DeleteAppreciate your reply. Before I reply to some of the great points you made, I would just like to quote St. Thomas Aquinas on circumstance since for him, some circumstances can be the principal condition of the object, similar to what you're mentioning like having a circumstance of a rapist coming to ones daughter.
"And consequently that which, in one action, is taken as a circumstance added to the object that specifies the action, can again be taken by the directing reason, as the principal condition of the object that determines the action's species. Thus to appropriate another's property is specified by reason of the property being "another's," and in this respect it is placed in the species of theft; and if we consider that action also in its bearing on place or time, then this will be an additional circumstance."
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2018.htm#article10
With regards to killing a child after removing him or her inside the utero, I was mistakenly calling it abortion (for some reason, I just thought it's abortion because of my previous discussions with pro-choice using C-section in circumstances where it's necessary is analogous to abortion). That's fine, thanks for pointing it out. At the same time, it seems to me that the circumstance of removing the child from utero, when it's not necessary to the health of the mother, is a different moral species or moral object, compared to removing the child through C-section when it's necessary to the mother's health. As what you mentioned,
"An act evil as to its species is evil in every case"
Moreover, some circumstances don't change the species, but simply shows whether it's more or less good, or more or less evil.
"In things which can be more or less intense, the difference of more or less does not change the species: thus by differing in whiteness through being more or less white a thing is not changed in regard to its species of color. In like manner that which makes an action to be more or less good or evil, does not make the action differ in species."
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2018.htm#article11
Do you think it's possible that the death penalty can be like that, where death penalty ,in circumstance that it's not necessary for the defense of society, is given to unjust aggressors, are morally wrong in its species because it's an intentional attack on the life of the human being?
And, death penalty in times it's necessary for the defense of society is morally good but a different species because some circumstances, that are principal conditions of the object, change?
Thank you.
Nice to see the discourse on this comment. It has the contours of the NNLT vs Classical Natural Law Theory Debate.. and in that regard, I fall squarely on the side of classical natural law Theory.
DeleteWhat would be your thoughts on my analysis of cruel and unusual punishments like the one I mentioned above, Prof ?
Do you think it's a good analysis?
Good day, Norm! I think, at the end of the day, the Catholic Church has to discern with regards to NNLT vs CNLT. Kindly note however that even if, for the meantime, I am inclined towards NNLT on death penalty, it doesn't mean I agree with everything they believe.
DeletePerhaps, I am really more towards to Classical Natural Law Theory, except that when it comes to punishment, as I reflect on this more, I can't see that mere retribution in itself justifies the intentional act of causing harm or pain, proportional to crime, because we have cases like torture and rape that can't be done towards criminals. If the argument is that there could be bad effects done towards them, that in itself cannot justify why it shouldn't be done since, if it's not morally wrong in terms of moral object to use torture and rape to the guilty or criminals, then these bad effects are secondary to the act. As what I mentioned about St. Thomas Aquinas, circumstances that are not part of the principle condition of the object are secondary, it speaks of "more or less", whether more good vs less good, or more evil vs less evil.
I am simply not convinced with the idea that torture and rape as punishments are good in terms of moral object, but happens to be least good because of circumstances. Moreover, I just noticed this, but the Catechism made an interesting point about torture:
"2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. Torture which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91
2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors."
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
I just noticed, but could this be the same development of doctrine taking place in the Catholic Church?
"I am simply not convinced with the idea that torture and rape as punishments are good in terms of moral object, but happens to be least good because of circumstances. Moreover, I just noticed this, but the Catechism made an interesting point about torture:"
DeleteChris,
Torture, defined as the intentional harming of someone such as to forcefully get them to do something by means of subverting their intellect and will, reducing a Human animal to a non human animal , is intrinsically evil
Rape is also intrinsically evil.
As such they can never be legitimate punishments.
Have a look at these two arguments.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-rehabilitation-and-execution.html
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2023/06/reconsidering-corporal-punishment.html
Norm, thanks for your detailed explanation and for showing me these links. I already read the one on corporal punishment, but the one on rehabilitation and execution was helpful as well.
DeletePerhaps, just for my last reply (since I've been doing other things as well), my concern is that if torture is intrinsically evil because it reduces a human animal to a non-human animal, I am just reminded of the argument of St. Thomas Aquinas that man becomes like a beast, which justifies death penalty for him because he can then be intentionally killed for the sake of greater good (which, ordinarily, shouldn't be happening to men but justifiable for animals because men are ends, not a means to an end).
And, if subverting their intellect and will is wrong because its part of the human nature to have the capacity to exercise their intellect and will, where through torture, the man is no longer capable of acting in accordance to its proper end, it seems that destroying the capacity of exercising their intellect and will is worse. And, part of the nature of human being is preservation of life. After all, St. Thomas Aquinas said,
"If we consider a man in himself, it is unlawful to kill any man, since in every man though he be sinful, we ought to love the nature which God has made, and which is destroyed by slaying him."
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article6
His only justification is that a sinner can be killed with reference to the common good because a man is worse than a beast, which is the point I already made earlier.
I just had a thought for now, it makes me wonder, if torturing is intrinsically evil because it forces them to do something by subverting their intellect and will, the same may also happen because the man being killed in death penalty may desire to live (as part of human nature), but he is intentionally being harmed which can also subvert his intellect and will. Recently, I've seen this article, it may be more of a consequentialist type of arguments. Hence, I don't accept all of their framework, but even for prudential reasons, I think this is worth looking at:
"Although the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the current method of lethal injection used is constitutional, several people have suffered because of this form of execution. In Ohio, Rommel Broom was subjected to 18 attempts at finding a vein so that he could be killed by lethal injection. The process to try to execute him took over two hours. Finally, the governor had to stop the execution and grant the inmate a one week reprieve. Mr. Broom has not been executed because he is challenging the state’s right to hold a second execution attempt. Nor was he the only Ohio inmate so maltreated. During his 2006 execution Joseph Clark screamed, “it don’t work” and requested to take something by mouth so the torture would end when his executioners took thirty minutes to find a vein. Christopher Newton’s execution took over two hours – so long that he had to be given a bathroom break."
https://www.aclu.org/documents/case-against-death-penalty
Thank you again, and I appreciate you clarifying some things. God bless!
"And, if subverting their intellect and will is wrong because its part of the human nature to have the capacity to exercise their intellect and will, where through torture, the man is no longer capable of acting in accordance to its proper end, it seems that destroying the capacity of exercising their intellect and will is worse."
DeleteChris
Dr David Decosimo addresses this in his article,
https://www.academia.edu/15364291/Killing_and_the_Wrongness_of_Torture
You should give it a look.
Also humble request to Prof if he could take some time to pass a comment on the initial argument I put forth above against unusual punishments. Would greatly appreciate it Prof
Let's set aside the fact that "deterrence" is a morally problematic concept and just look at the practical examples you give. Murders of prison guards, for example, are so uncommon that it's hard to even find concrete statistics. A study in 2013 of fatalities among US corrections officers ("U.S. Correctional Officers Killed or Injured on the Job") found just 45 violent deaths over a 10-year period (1999-2008). 17 of them were suicides, and of the remaining 28, more than a third (~10) were murders by people who weren't prison inmates. That leaves 18 over a 10-year period, or just under 2 a year (hardly an epidemic). More recently, BOP statistics for the 2020s report an average of less than one serious assault (the kind resulting in prisoner discipline) on staff a month across the entire system, even in high-security prisons. The idea that the death penalty serves as necessary deterrence here is textbook example of a solution in search of a problem.
ReplyDelete(It's worth noting that in the UK has not seen a single murder of a prison guard since the death penalty was abolished in 1969.)
The case of prisoners who murder other prisoners is more compelling (the rates of inmate-on-inmate violence are much higher), but it ignores the fact that violence is an inherent feature of mass incareration, not a bug that can be ironed out by holding the death penalty over prisoners' heads. After all, prison violence was just as common in the early 20th century, when executions peaked in the United States. If you really are concerned about the safety of inmates, look to the system itself, not to the actions of individuals. It's no good to put hundreds of violent criminals in a confined space with limited supervision (and basically no effort at rehabilitation) and then act all Surprised Pikachu when they start murdering each other. As a former public school teacher, I can tell you that if you put all the worst kids in one classroom, no amount of "deterrence" will stop them from misbehaving.
After all, if they were smart enough to be deterred by consequences, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Why do you think "deterrence" is a morally problematic concept? Shouldn't there be consequences for wrong actions?
DeleteI'm interested in your solution to mass incarceration. Without intending to be contentious:
What can we do to improve it? Or do you propose to do away with prisons?
You make a good point that there are certain people who just won't behave. But it seems when those are identified they get sent to solitary confinement. Doesn't that imply that therefore there are some who can be deterred? Also, wouldn't capital punishment for the prisoners who've murdered other prisoners and proven themselves unable to deterred by other means prevent further murders, that being a good thing?
"After all, prison violence was just as common in the early 20th century, when executions peaked in the United States."
DeleteWere they?
The last 20 years has seen a radical increase in prison violence.
"After all, if they were smart enough to be deterred by consequences, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place."
DeleteThurible, say you're childless and have never had a pet without saying you're childless and never have owned a pet.
Not that I care to get involved in the weeds of this particular discussion, but if you two are going to claim that crime in prisons is up, down, or sideways in recent decades, it seems wise to go and find some actual figures to back up your claims.
DeleteEXE, good point.
Delete"In 2019, 143 inmates of state and federal prisons in the United States were killed by homicide."
statista.com. That's the most recent year listed.
So, setting aside prison guards, that's prison inmate killings. I assume, for those who don't want murderers killed, other inmates killed are also objectionable?
Let's set aside the fact that "deterrence" is a morally problematic concept
Murders of prison guards is just one component of those killed by prisoners - as shown. 143 in one year is a lot more significant than 18 in 10 years. But deterrence aside, the MAIN point of killing prisoners who murder in prison is prevention: those who have been put to death never murder again: the statistics show 0 murders after death. 0 is much better than 143.
After all, prison violence was just as common in the early 20th century, when executions peaked in the United States.
Data? And "violence" is not "murder". And even if the # of murders per year of murderer incarceration was similar in 1920, if back then we put a murderer to death within 2 years, whereas now he is prison for 40 years, that's 20 times as much.
ignores the fact that violence is an inherent feature of mass incareration,
Actually, it's not. Some prisons are different, some systems are different. It is possible to affect this issue. Part of the problem is that our society itself has turned its back on the idea of prison sentence for a crime being a moral category and is considered solely from the perspective of keeping people outside of prison safe from the offenders. A moral perspective would require remembering that prisoners are, themselves, a part of society. (Thus making hash of Francis's noodle-brained comments about ensuring that even the most violent criminals must have an opportunity to "return to society".) But also, giving them the wherewithal to repent and to reform their souls, including the sacraments and moral training - which obviously has become a verbotten subject in a secular prison or state school. Sorry if that was redundant. Maybe what Thurry said is true GIVEN an amoral, a-religious society, that's probably plausible. But then, then violence outside of prison is a certainty also.
I think to some extent part of the resistance to giving this line of argument lies in ambiguity over "prudential" as in it often has a "wordly Consequentialist" or Utilitarian association. Now in some contexts that's fine--after all all else being equally more of a good is normally desirable, but has unconscious negative associations. Those of the Francis sentiment, which of course Ed is not, might be better served by taking the line that the death penalty is virtually only permissible in situations where no other penal solution is workable, and more generally conflicts with the greater stance about life the Church wishes to cultivate in the world.
ReplyDelete(Whether then there is a conflict between the this-worldly Consequentialism of states and the other-worldly Consequentialism of the Church, and, if so, if this presents a problem, is another question. My answer would be: so much the worse for the State)
Good day, Dr. Edward Feser.
ReplyDeleteJust curious, assuming we have certain evidence that the criminals are really guilty of worst crimes, what is the time frame for the execution of death penalty and for possible time of clemency (if you allow this in your perspective)?
Also, the reason why I asked this is even if someone is pro-death penalty, and even if there is death penalty, it seems that the problems also remain and need to be solved. That is, prisoners should still be stopped in killing one another.
I'm actually curious as to the solution for this specific problem from a public policy perspective, besides death penalty.
Thank you.
Pope Leo has compared death penalty to abortion in October though...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.zerohedge.com/political/death-row-priest
ReplyDeleteThe death penalty is too easy a way to die.
ReplyDeleteJust a heads up to everyone: your pro-life witness would be a lot more credible if you consistently adopted positions that showed that you actually valued human life and flourishing throughout that life. Opposing abortion while (for example) supporting policies that make raising children difficult, refusing to meaningfully address gun violence, being blasé about the death penalty, all make you seem like hypocrites.
ReplyDeleteSure, I know you have intellectual justifications for your positions, but even if you think they're valid, they're also deeply unconvincing to anyone not predisposed to agreeing with you. To outsiders, they make you look like hypocrites who only care that people are born; not that they live good lives.
Lotta incel energy coming from this post. Nothing concrete in any of the assertions, but it has that rancid vibe.
Delete"Sure, I know you have intellectual justifications for your positions, but even if you think they're valid, they're also deeply unconvincing to anyone not predisposed to agreeing with you. To outsiders, they make you look like hypocrites who only care that people are born; not that they live good lives."
DeleteSure, you may have your rationalizations, but they are also deeply unconvincing to someone without your particular psychopatic temperament and special brand of moral idiocy. To outsiders, your little rant makes it look like you just want to kill babies and that many of them die is a matter of small importance when compared to your other concerns.
Here is some moral unsolicited advice to moral idiots: to live a good life, one not only has to know what a good life is, but one has to actually be alive; one is the precondition of the other, so they are not on the same plane.
EXE, that's why I say I'm "Anti-abortion" and not "pro-life". Because I know insincere players like yourself will come and make it seem like it's just some lie on my part. For one, if someone is getting beaten in the street I'm not going to say "Stop! I'm pro-healthy walking around!!!". No, because there's no shame in saying "I'm anti you pummeling that guy to a pulp".
DeleteSo, I'm anti-abortion, lest some guy comes along and says "pro-life, hey? Then why aren't you making sure people FLOURISH throughout their life??".
"Flourish"... you're like Pope Francis against the death penalty; where it eventually turns out to be against "unduly" long prison sentences too. So, even if one did meet the initial hurdle of being pro-life, here you come saying "I want to see more FLOURISHING you hypocrites"..
But honestly, with the anger and paroxysms that you regularly fall into. I think most should be more concerned about you than your fevered imaginations of the hypocrisy of pro-lifers.
Really? You couldn't come up with a better comeback? At least pick a slur that makes sense. If I was complaining about women, that'd at least be within the ballpark of inceldom, but c'mon. I gave positions that a great many American Conservatives hold and claimed that they are inconsistent with supporting human flourishing, or at least cannot be reconciled with it in a way that modern people are likely to be convinced by. Ya got anything more meaningful to contribute, Anon?
DeleteI am neither Conservative, American nor Pro-Death Penalty. But the comparison with abortion really isn’t very good, as anti-abortion types classically want to claim the unborn are innocent while those facing the death penalty are not (as opposed to hardened Utilitarians who would allow the execution of innocents were the public gain great enough). If you mean about the positive good of having children, which is a good on Natural Law, then point taken.
Delete(Conversely Tucker Carlson’s criticism of Singer’s “Vulture Capitalism” and demands to protect American industry from rapid automation in his exchange with Shapiro are frankly doing better than most Democrats for the above point.)
grodriguez:
DeleteFunny that you assume that I'm pro-abortion, I never said any such thing. I said that many or most conservative pro-life advocacy is rendered unpersuasive by the morally inconsistent attitudes of said conservatives. You simply assumed that I'm pro-abortion, presumably for the same reasons you assume minorities are out to get you. You make no actual substantive response to my points.
Tim Lambert:
Well, thank you for being honest about not being pro-life. I find it tiresome that you accuse me of insincere bad faith - that's a meaningless ad hominem. How do you know that I'm not sincere in my remarks? Furthermore, I find it strange that a Catholic would compare me to the Pope and think of that as an insult. Thanks! I don't know how I can respond to your next point, since it's just another accusation of bad faith on me, claiming that I am actively malicious, dishonest, and using any and every underhanded trick in the book to "get" you. There's no way I can respond to that, since it's not a rational point, rather being an expression of your emotional distrust of me.
As a matter of curiosity, why exactly are you so opposed to using the concept of human flourishing in arguments? You treat it like it's inherently deceptive or insidious or something, and I don't understand why. The basic claim being made most of the time amounts to the idea that it's good to ensure that humans are happy and fulfilled as much as is reasonably possible to attain, and that to maximize bringing as many people into existence as possible without taking care to ensure that they will have happy and fulfilled lives is cruel and reckless. Note that I am not here attempting to justify abortion, lest you think I'm claiming something I'm not. I'm saying that it is callous and heartless to create human beings, ends in themselves, and then care nothing for how well they actually live. That looks more like some kind of bizarre natal maximalist position.
your pro-life witness would be a lot more credible...Sure, I know you have intellectual justifications for your positions, but even if you think they're valid, they're also deeply unconvincing
DeleteEXE, your lack of soundness shines through loud and clear. You may think your position is plausible, but to those of us who have been there and done that kind of stuff ourselves in the past, we can see through it.
1. In general, society works by having various people doing various parts of what needs doing. A policeman isn't a hypocrite for shooting a gunman putting lives in danger, and for saying "I am here to protect people". He IS protecting people, just not criminal gunmen while they are attacking others. He isn't a hypocrite for bringing said gunman to the hospital after he shoots the guy, and honestly hopes the doctors can save him - now that he is not a danger to others. A prison warden isn't a hypocrite for running a prison, but also saying "I hope every one of my prisoners gets out of this prison, and then lives upright lives - after he serves his term." No more is an abortion protestor a hypocrite for protesting abortion and not being the person on point for ALSO caring for at risk mothers. Cardinal O'Connor made that point decades ago, when he made a flat, blanket promise to take care of ANY AND EVERY pregnant mother in need who comes forward asking for help. Nobody needs to be the one who meets all needs of all those in need, it cannot be done, we rely on many others to help doing their share.
2. One aspect of the reasons for Church teaching, particularly that of official doctrine, is to help people mold their consciences to conform to Christ: it is EXPECTED that the world and original sin will make us ready to resist the truth that Christ taught, and to make it seem "unconvincing". It is part of humility to recognize that good teaching, and good argument - the truth - sometimes won't feel obviously right at the first moment we hear it, we need to humbly take a second look, and then a third, and keep doing it, and to conform our consciences to the teaching of Christ.
Even for those who are not Catholic, if they are even halfway honest with themselves, they know that they have made mistakes in the past, and they must be capable of being aware "maybe I made a mistake in this issue as well, I need to be careful about assuming my feelings are a more reliable guide to the truth than reasoning. If something looks like a good argument but runs contrary to my feelings, I can't just dismiss the argument out of hand and rely on my feelings." So, an argument that "appears valid" but is "deeply unconvincing" should be recognized as a CHALLENGE to do more work, not just reject it and rest on the "unconvincing" aspect as if it is resolves the problem.
@EXE:
Delete"You make no actual substantive response to my points."
Actually, I made two points; I will repeat them: first, that your rhetoric of questioning the motives can be just as easily be turned against you, and second that the issues you raise (e. g. having a "good life") are on a different plane than the issue of abortion. More could be said, but neither are you willing to listen nor do I have the disposition to engage with you. So instead of a completely useless discussion creating needless noise, peace, take care.
Tony:
Delete1. There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that you, personally, need to provide for at least one unwanted pregnancy in order to avoid charges of hypocrisy. I'm saying that you at the very least need to *support* social stances that enable that to occur. What I have in mind here is the kind of "principled Republican" who opposes both abortion and free childcare, who wants women to have lots of babies but doesn't think it important to create an environment that will enable her to take care of them. The kind of person who abhors the killing of a child in the womb but shrugs his shoulders at the killing of a child in a school shooting because that's "just the price of freedom". If this does not describe you, then well enough. Just know that it describes an uncomfortably large chunk of the American Conservative movement, one that renders pro-life witness considerably less effective than it could be.
2. Well, I can't say whether your point here works for Catholics - it seems to take for granted the idea that humans are evil and ready to oppose the Truth, which renders this whole thing rather impossible to argue about. Seems a bit irrational, as it would mean that both widespread acceptance of and widespread opposition to your beliefs now both count as evidence that they are correct.
I'll grant that feelings are not always correct, but I think you're too glib in dismissing them here. Deep moral intuitions are not the same as fleeting fancies. For instance, even if you have never worked out a rational moral reason for it, I suspect that if someone handed you a baby and ordered you to kill it, you would be revolted by the thought. To dismiss this as mere sentiment is blasé. Furthermore, for a Christian, sometimes these claims reflect challenges about the nature of God and who God is. For instance, if it turns out that (to give one example) homosexuality is truly genetic and inborn, a perfectly natural desire, then a prohibition of homosexuality implies that God has created some people in such a way that they will always be frustrated and unable to be as fulfilled as heterosexual people. That has some serious implications for the Problem of Evil, as it calls the goodness of God into question. It implies that God actively desires the suffering and torment of at least some people, which is a scandal, though I don't know if you'd regard it as such. Even if you dismiss all such claims, however, it also seems hard to understand why, if God wants everyone to obey Him and agree with His teachings, He would then go and create people with tender consciences unable to accept them, at least not without seriously coarsening their hearts and depriving themselves of their primary virtues.
"If you were so pro-life, you would do what I think needs to be done."
DeleteThat's all this amounts to. There are pro-life pregnancy centers all over the place funded by pro-life donations(which pro-choice advocates are trying to get shutdown), even provide post-abortion trauma support, run family support centers, adoption and foster-care services would utterly collapse without pro-life support, pro-lifers run foodbanks, etc.
"What I have in mind here is the kind of "principled Republican" who opposes both abortion and free childcare"
So, if we don't support the govt borrowing money and pumping it in to social services for families, which are 1) inflationary and 2) promote parents dumping their kids with others while they spend their days working, then it means we support anti-family policies? Like I said, this all amounts to "You don't agree with me, therefore you don't seem pro-life to me"
"The kind of person who abhors the killing of a child in the womb but shrugs his shoulders at the killing of a child in a school shooting because that's "just the price of freedom"."
Solutions have been offered. Protect schools like we protect banks, court buildings, and other govt buildings. That actually works. Shooters pick soft-targets pretty much exclusively. But, you'll ignore that in favor of some policy (like banning assault weapons perhaps?) that achieves basically nothing, while restricting freedoms.
So, this amounts to "You aren't pro-life because you don't support the ideas that I support".
And in case it wasn't clear; I was talking about American Conservatives generally.
ReplyDeleteNo, it was clear. As it usually is clear when someone who struggles to control their emotions... they want their explosions to cover as much ground as possible. Well just see your apologies after the fact. Would your last name be "Shea"?
DeleteThis is a fine analysis of the Holy Father's statement. However, I would gently submit that defending the DP solely in terms of protection and deterrence is conceding too much. Not only may death be a condign and just remedy for a crime, but failure to pursue & carry it out can be an offense against justice and an offense against the dignity of the victim, maybe even one that cries unto heaven. To treat this possibility as inconsistent with Catholic morality is a grave charge to lay against the latter.
ReplyDeleteNot necessarily. It's because morality is not just based on moral object and intention, but also in circumstance. Hence, even if the moral object for death penalty is justified, it doesn't follow it's automatically morally good or that refraining from it is automatically an offense against justice. And, if one proceeds with that idea, it would seem like the Popes requesting for clemency, even prior to Vatican 2 like Venerable Pius XII, are actually requesting for injustice instead of mercy.
DeleteReference for Venerable Pius XII,
Pope Pius XII and the execution of the Rosenbergs:
https://wherepeteris.com/pope-pius-xii-and-the-execution-of-the-rosenbergs/
It's pretty much a truism that mercy and justice can be in tension. This necessarily implies that mercy can be something less than justice in full; calling it a sort of "injustice" might be tendentious, but not technically wrong.
DeleteHowever, mercy is a great thing and our Lord has it in abundance (for which thank God!). But if you've read much of Feser's work at all, you can easily find him explaining the dire moral & spiritual hazards of treating mercy as a default to be handed out automatically to transgressors.
It's pretty much a truism that mercy and justice can be in tension.
DeleteAgreed: in the act of prudential judgment about when to be merciful and when not to and instead apply (outwardly) simply the just treatment is a judgment of circumstances in tension.
This necessarily implies that mercy can be something less than justice in full; calling it a sort of "injustice" might be tendentious, but not technically wrong.
When one looks only at the outward aspect, this may be how it looks. But the guts of the act show how it is NOT "technically" correct.
Justice is defined as giving someone their due. Mercy entails giving them something better than what is their due. It is often possible to give someone "their due" and then give them an additional good, so that you have achieved both justice and mercy.
In punishments, it is viewed as "mercy" when you give them a penalty that is less severe than the punishment they are due. However, true mercy considers not merely their outwardly appearing welfare, but also their soul, and the future state of their soul: if a condign punishment will cause them to reform their mind, heart, and soul, and a lesser punishment will fail to do this, then it is NOT merciful to give the lesser punishment. In that case, it should be called "leniency" and be known as a failure of BOTH mercy and justice.
The HIGHLY social act of deciding to give a lesser punishment than one that is condign to the offense is also an act (by the judge) toward society as well as toward the offender. It is not, on the part of the judge, an upright and wholesome act to give a lesser punishment than is due, if doing so will damage society thereby - either by causing riots (e.g. for truly heinous acts of leniency toward someone who has greatly offended society by vast wrongs), or by persistently failing to manifest the causal link between the degree of punishment and the degree of evil of the crime. If this is what the judge is doing, again it isn't "mercy" properly named, because it fails true charity, it is "leniency" (or some name with more opprobrium).
When a judge rightly gives a lesser punishment than what is due, in effect society itself is "paying" (or forgiving) the debt the offender is not paying, and this cannot possibly be technically "unjust" since society itself is the one owed the debt: a lender is not unjust TO HIMSELF by writing off a debt if doing so is wholesome according to the order of charity.
Lastly, even when a person (any person) rightly imposes the just punishment and not a lesser one, he can (ALWAYS) intend an end result better than what is due: he can pray for the criminal, and ask God to turn this punishment to the offender's long-range good. This is, per se, an act of mercy to the offender (something better than his due), even though outwardly, the act of imposing the just punishment is not visibly "mercy". The saints show us that EVERY upright act, done for God's sake, is part of mercy and charity, and thus indirectly also part of justice but better than "mere" justice.
Good day, Tony! Appreciate your thoughts. I would just like to know your perspective on this. Suppose there is a lesser crime where death penalty is not due to them, do you think it's permissible to believe that torture and mutilation are acts of mercy since these are due to them (as lower crimes compared those that are worthy of death), especially if someone discerns that if someone experience torture and mutilation, they may actually repent more seeing how bad happened to them, compared to if they just have imprisonment?
DeleteI'm really thinking about this one lately. Thanks.
It is clear that some acts are not permitted as punishments even if the suffering they inflict is (in a sense) a fitting sort of suffering to the crime: it is immoral to use rape to punish a rapist, not because he doesn't deserve that degree of suffering, but because it is wrong for the punisher to rape (just as it is wrong for anyone to rape). So, that a certain penalty should not be used can be valid even without a claim that the degree of penal suffering is in excess.
DeleteIn my estimation, torture is not a morally licit punishment ever. The reason is not because nobody could ever commit a crime who punishment is not worthy of the amount of suffering that a stretch of torture would deliver. He might deserve that much suffering.
It is my opinion that at least part of what sets torture apart from other punishments is that the intensity of pain is intended to cause the recipient to lose control over his free will: he becomes brutalized as (in a sense) made like brute animals, because the pain passes beyond his capacity for resistance / retention of self and self control. Hence this kind of treatment, as making him no longer capable of exercising reason, is unfitting for humans to apply. We must not turn humans into (effectively) brutes.
I feel that somewhat similar (though different) arguments apply to mutilation, but I am not as confident on the exact analysis.
compared to if they just have imprisonment
There is no general principle that imprisonment is THE penalty of choice. It has the general advantage of keeping the violent criminal from opportunities of preying on other citizens, and the general advantage that it is contrary to the preference of everyone to command their own coming and going. But it has various disadvantages as well.
Actually, while we're on this subject, I have a related topic I'd like to discuss. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Pope Leo gets up tomorrow and publicly states something that is manifestly contradictory to dogma, and furthermore states that he is speaking Ex Cathedra. What happens? Does the Church theologically implode? Does fire rain from Heaven, beginning Judgment Day? Does God pre-empt any such thing by hitting him with a lightning bolt before he can speak? Leave aside for the sake of argument any claims about whether such a thing is likely, would be discouraged by Vatican bureaucrats, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'm genuinely curious about this, because I've never heard a really solid response to this possibility. Yes, I know "the Gates of Hell will not prevail", but that's not an adequate response to the question of *How* that preservation is supposed to occur. Certainly, Traditionalist Catholics seem to regularly worry about such a thing happening.
I would assume your question is not necessarily about death penalty but about dogmas themselves.
DeleteTo answer your question, if you are referring to non-infallible teachings (or even ex cathedra infallible teachings from the Pope) that is impossible. So, since it won't happen, then fire won't rain from heaven or the like.
"So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema."
- Vatican 1
https://catholicism.io/2021/03/07/vatican-i-pastor-aeternus-on-the-indefectibility-of-the-pope/
With regards to actually believing in heresy (which is necessary before the Pope publicly states a heresy), that is also impossible as well. This is why saints and Popes defended throughout history Pope Honorius. Please see this link:
https://ronconte.com/2021/08/21/the-roman-pontiff-never-failing-faith-and-freedom-from-grave-error/
Just as fire won't rain from heaven if there are contradictions in Scriptures, if you're expecting them, you won't see them from papal statements.
I think Edward Feser has a different perspective though. But, I would respectfully disagree with him.
It would be irrelevant to the fact that the death penalty is explicitly allowed in the Bible and that God commands that the Israelites carry out the death penalty on various occasions. From a (traditional) Protestant perspective, it would mean that the Roman Catholic Church had abandoned the biblical teaching on this doctrine. In fairness, there are several areas in which mainline Protestant denominations have recently abandoned biblical teachings that they used to hold and which Catholics have not abandoned. But even as a Protestant, I think that the scenario you propose is unlikely. Pope Leo is far less likely to do this than was Pope Francis, and Pope Francis on several occasions implied things that were contradictory to dogma but never in an official capacity unequivocally stated anything which manifestly contradicted Roman Catholic dogma.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteThank you for your thoughts. I'm just curious, and I hope it's ok for me to ask this.
What are your thoughts on Exodus 32:27 when God commanded Moses to kill by sword those who are guilty of idolatry during that time?
Exodus 32:27
27 And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Put every man his sword on his side, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’”
After all, I'm not sure, but I believe that it's intrinsically evil to kill an innocent pagan human being. Or, when Abraham almost killed Isaac, I think you would agree with me that sacrificing a 12 year old child is intrinsically evil, and yet, that's commanded by God (except that it was not completed).
Death penalty is interesting because it's relevant to the ethics of killing itself. And yet, my personal solution is to think that the intentional killing of innocent human beings, without instructions from God, is intrinsically evil, but it has a different moral object compared to when God instructed it.
Assuming that this is the case, what are your thoughts on how it would apply to death penalty during the time it's commanded by God, and after the time of Christ when we no longer have revelations from God of commanding death penalty? Do you think it's possible that those two types of death penalty have different moral object?
Thank you.
Hi Chris. I am not going to get into exegesis of the individual passages where God commands something which ordinarily would be forbidden. From the top of my head, Aquinas has a reasonable discussion of the cases concerning the commands for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Hosea to marry a prostitute and for the Israelites to plunder the Egyptians. Perhaps one of the Catholic commentators here can give you the appropriate reference. In Exodus 32:27, the idolaters are not innocent. Regarding your larger question of the death penalty for murder, Genesis 9:6 establishes capital punishment for murder on the principle of proportionality. Kenneth Matthews describes it as "Society's expression of God's wrath upon anyone who would profane the sanctity of human life." The "in the image of God" phrase in that verse likely does double duty: it is because the murder victim is in the image of God that capital punishment is deserved and it is because humans are in the image of God that he has delegated to them the authority to carry out the punishment. The Noahide laws in Genesis 9 are part of natural law and these are not abrogated in the New Testament.
DeleteChris:
DeleteYes, thanks. I appreciate your response, even though my question was a little off topic. I see, you think this occurrence is simply impossible and thus will never occur. Fair enough. In that case, I have another question. If you woke up and saw that the Holy Father had indeed made such a statement, would you conclude that the Catholic Church had been proven false? It's fine if you think this will never actually occur, but it's clearly something that can be imagined, and I would like to know how you would respond in such a hypothetical.
Chris:
DeleteAn interesting perspective. The issue that I have with it is that it seems like it veers a little too close to Divine Command Theory, in the sense that it seems to claim that what makes a killing justified is the fact that God wills it. If God can command the killing of an innocent person and have it therefore be automatically made licit, then Divine Law is arbitrary. Relatedly, if doing good merely means following the Will of God, and that Will can be arbitrary, then Divine Goodness is rendered meaningless. Anything God does is good by tautology, regardless of how sickening or offensive it is to our moral intuitions, or even how contradictory it is to God's other actions or commands. Granted, you COULD still take this path, but you would end up with a Cosmic Dictator, essentially just a Bronze Age Despot writ very, very large. In addition, you'd have to give up any claim to consonance between Man and God. Christianity claims that we are made in God's image, it would therefore be absurd and scandalous if our grasp of morality, however imperfect, had nothing in common with God's. To me at least, it seems dangerous for a Christian to suggest that our deepest and most widely-held moral intuitions aren't at least a dim reflection of God's Will.
And yet, my personal solution is to think that the intentional killing of innocent human beings, without instructions from God, is intrinsically evil, but it has a different moral object compared to when God instructed it.
DeleteCorrect: God is the source of life, and the Lord of life: it is His to give and to take away. He mostly takes away through "natural means", i.e. disease, old age defects, accidents, but the Bible and the Fathers clearly teach that these are God doing it: He has set nature in motion, and for each death He knew it beforehand and designed "nature" (and every aspect of her vicissitudes) so that it would happen. He has the authority to do it through human means, by directing someone to do it. So, "the act" is not "to take a life without just cause" but "to take a life justly, at God's command".
EXE, Thank you for your questions. Btw, it's actually my first time engaging with more people here in this blog spot, so I appreciate the time.
DeleteBefore I answer your question, I would just like to share that I don't personally imagine scenarios that are "damaging" to my faith, even if these are hypotheticals. I'm not sure if you're a Catholic or non-Catholic Christian or non-Christian (apologies if you stated it somewhere that I haven't seen), but personally, I believe that imagining some things that are directly oppose to my faith can lead to temptations. Faith is not just intellectual, it's also spiritual.
Nonetheless, I think that what you said is worth mentioning (since, again, I assume this is not just about death penalty but about dogmas themselves). If the Pope made a statement (whether non-infallible or infallible) that is borderline heretical and not merely mistaken, that will falsify Catholic Church to me. If it's mere statement not as the supreme teacher of the Church but as a theologian, I think I can simply think that he did not really hold to this material heresy, but he was just mistaken.
This is really like if I claim that if I saw that the apostles actually stole the body of Christ in the tomb, then that would falsify Christianity for me.
At the same time, kindly note that I don't view this in terms of coherentism as if I believe that the Catholic Church is true simply because it's the most coherent, and where every comment from Pope makes me nervous trying to make sense of its coherence or else, my faith will be affected.
Rather, I am convinced that God exists, that Christianity is true, that Jesus established the Catholic Church (as proven by Scriptures, Catholic miracles, and other motives of credibility), and that I am convinced as a result of the Church teaching on papacy.
EXE,
DeleteWith regards to Divine Command Theory, or at least the most voluntarist type of Divine Command Theory, I would say that the view of St. Thomas Aquinas and the Church is different from this.
It's not that God can just change whatever He wills, and that what is morally bad becomes morally good. As mentioned by Tony, God is the source of life and Lord of life.
When evil takes place, it's done in the context of God permitting it, but when God permits it, it's not even the same way with how we permit evil (as if God is committing sin of omission). Rather, it's similar to principle of double effect, that God intends the good, and the evil that takes place is side effect, something outside the intention of God's work. And, when God brings greater good out of it, this is an intentional act on God's part.
This is not like intending to do evil for the sake of greater good. And, death is interesting because unlike other evils (homosexual act not being open to life, lying, etc), death is the punishment due to original sin. Moreover, God is the judge of everyone, and if we are going to be judged in the afterlife, well, we have to finish the life here in this world first, that is, we should die.
So, suppose someone is guilty of grave sin, God can intend the good of giving judgment to this person. He can permit some evil to take place, like someone can attack this person, or that there can be strong typhoon or calamity, etc, causing death to this person, and after wards, God judges the soul of this person. This is God intending good and permitting evil.
Now, this seems to have a different case when God makes a special command to someone. If causing death from God's perspective is not morally wrong, then it follows that God can use human instruments in doing so, where death remains outside of God's intention, but the intention is something good. This is what happens, in my opinion, to the strong passages in Scriptures where God commands Moses and other people to kill pagans, and when God commanded in a special way the death penalty in Old Testament. Analogously, it's similar to a "miracle" where God suspends the natural order, in this way, God dispenses people from intentionally killing.
So, by doing what God commanded in Old Covenant (and no longer applicable in New Covenant in the coming of Christ, establishment of the Catholic Church, etc), what the people who killed people based on God's commands is they're not "intentionally killing" people (unlike if we kill people in today's time), but rather, the intentional act is to bring justice, and to bring the good that God intends while the side-effect is the death of the people.
This analysis is, in my perspective, what differentiates the commandments of God in Old Testament compared to some extreme Divine Command Theories. I hope this helps.
Note: Discussion on death penalty, in my opinion, should also lead someone to review the morality of death penalty in Old Testament, and what justifies them, without merely assuming them. I would say that I am also interested if there are other Catholic interpretations that can provide explanation for this.
Hi, Anonymous!
DeleteAppreciate your thoughts. Perhaps one of my comments is that, technically, we're not all innocent. And, I even committed grave sins against God. But, the fact that we can't kill an innocent human being is not just about someone who is not guilty somewhere. It's about not killing someone who is not an aggressor. So, it seems to me that if I see some pagans actually worshipping false gods, I am still not justified in killing them. So, for me, it still leads us to the question as to what makes the killing of Moses permissible, and if it's because there is a special command from God, and a special command from God is also given for death penalty in Old Testament (even to sins that are grave but not murder), then it makes us wonder as to how that would translate to the topic of death penalty today.
When it comes to Genesis 9:6, I am not sure if this should be understood as death penalty being commanded by God for the state to perform at all times. After all, Genesis 9:4 speaks of forbidding people to eat flesh of animals with blood is forbidden, but this seems to not be part of natural and moral law.
And, it seems to be that in Genesis 4:15, despite the fact that Cain is guilty of murder, he is not allowed to be killed by the people. Those are just some of the things I'm thinking recently.
Anyway, appreciate your thoughts. Perhaps, this might be my last reply since I have to do other things, but I appreciate the discussion here. God bless us all!
Chris,
DeleteWell, I appreciate your earnestness. Thank you. I am glad to hear that you would not arbitrarily redefine the terms of faith in order to preserve it if you did see evidence that it was wrong. That is a thing that requires intellectual honesty and courage.
I am, however, a little concerned about your comment regarding not being willing to imagine certain scenarios. I understand where you're coming from, but I'm concerned this could be a kind of mental blinders that you put on yourself. If the preservation of your Faith requires reflexively refusing to think about certain possibilities, that seems to call into question the rationality of said Faith. I don't know about you, but I know that I personally could never do such a thing - the cognitive dissonance would kill me. Maybe it's because I'm autistic, but my brain literally will not permit me to purposely choose to ignore facts or problems that might be relevant. I would live with the perpetual, festering dread that I was lying to myself.
I see that you view the truth of the Catholic Church's claims to be independently established, and view everything else in light of that belief. Sometimes I wish I could do the same. However, I've learned too much to do so honestly. Please know that I don't want to damage your faith, but, well...to put it succinctly, most of the serious claims of extra-Biblical miracles don't hold up well to scientific scrutiny, and belief in the unique goodness and fruitfulness of the Catholic Church is only possible if you read an extremely massaged and whitewashed version of history. If the good fruits of the Church's actions count as motives of credibility, then it's arbitrary to not count its bad actions as counter-motives of credibility. I could go on for hours, but I don't want to make us both upset. Believe me, I wish I could believe in the merciful image of Jesus that I was taught as a child. But I can't reconcile it with so many things I've learned. For now, I'm just holding on with hope, and seeing where it takes me. Whatever I do, I want to do good and follow truth. I don't want to do something simply because I'm afraid or because I have an emotional attachment to an idea. I...don't know.
Secondary question regarding the question of the Death Penalty and its relation to continuity with past teaching - could not the same arguments be made with regards to slavery? Clearly the Church accepted the validity of the enslavement of human beings for most of its history. Despite the occasional exception, you will not find a widespread consensus that slavery is wrong emerging until the 1830s, around about the time that this idea was beginning to take hold of the secular world. Even as late as 1866, the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office held that there was nothing per se wrong with slavery and that just titles for slavery could exist. This has often been whitewashed by popular apologetics as only applying to penal labor or debt slavery (which still seems morally problematic at best, but go on), however the problem is that neither the 1866 Missal makes no such qualification. Many thinkers at the time would have regarded "just titles for slavery" as including, for instance, the fact that someone was born the child of a slave, and many of the Age of Discovery era Popes thought it was fine to buy, own, or even violently capture heathens as slaves so long as you baptized them and weren't excessively cruel.
ReplyDeleteEven if you're willing to bite the bullet and say that slavery always was and remains licit, you'd still run into the problem of directly contradicting Gaudium Et Spes, which explicitly includes slavery among its list of "infamies" that "poison human society" and are "a Supreme dishonor to the Creator".
Sources:
1866 Instruction of the Holy Office:
https://suchanek.name/texts/atheism/slavery.html
Gaudium Et Spes:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
Good day, EXE,
DeleteYou are making good points. Many Catholics are seeing development of doctrine along those lines. Although honestly, I haven't thought about slavery yet and the development of doctrine about it (and I don't usually discuss things I haven't studied), I would like to share a different topic which, in my mind, is actually closer to the development of doctrine in the Catholic Church. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church,
2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. TORTURE which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, PUNISH THE GUILTY frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.
2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
Meanwhile, St. John Paul II cited Gaudium Et Spes regarding some examples of intrinsically evil actions in his encyclical, Veritatis Splendor. St. John Paul II said,
"80. Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature "incapable of being ordered" to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image. These are the acts which, in the Church's moral tradition, have been termed "intrinsically evil" (intrinsece malum): they are such always and per se, in other words, on account of their very object, and quite apart from the ulterior intentions of the one acting and the circumstances (...)
The Second Vatican Council itself, in discussing the respect due to the human person, gives a number of examples of such acts: "Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit"
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor.html
Torture is considered by the Church as intrinsically evil even though this is once accepted (non-infallibly) by the Church before as a valid form of punishment and, if we are going to use a pure retributive view (based on some classical natural law theorists) of punishment, torture seems justifiable.
And yet, if torture is intrinsically evil because it's an intentional attack on the human being, and the fact that the Church said that the clemency it requested throughout history and a growing understanding of dignity is a sign of development doctrine, could we make a similar line of argumentation for death penalty?
In my opinion, yes. Recently, about Trump's attempt to use force on Greenland, Dr. Edward Feser made a point that,
Delete"Rather, they were acting under divine authorization, mediated through prophets. And since God has authority over life and death that no human being has, he may command certain things that no human being could do on his own authority."
https://firstthings.com/church-history-does-not-support-trumps-expansionism/
It seems we can also make a proper understanding that death penalty is justifiable in Old Testament because of God's commandments, but we no longer have these commandments in New Testament. Meanwhile, in Church history, the Church is constantly refining its understanding on whether God still gave this authority to the State. (Kindly note though that many saints and popes opposed the use of death penalty in early church history, please research on Dr. Robert Fastiggi or you may check the article and link below).
Capital Punishment and Magisterial Authority Part 2
https://wherepeteris.com/capital-punishment-and-magisterial-authority-part-2/
Perhaps, one can make an argument that the Church believed that the State has the authority to kill through death penalty, but as time goes by, this belief becomes more refined in so far as it's only permissible "if" God has given this authority to the State, and since God has not given this authority to the State, then it's intrinsically evil or contrary to human dignity for the State to use either torture or death penalty as a punishment to the guilty. Part of the development of doctrine is that, we have a consistent teaching that the State can give punishment that is proportional to the crime. However, as the Church reflects more, the Church realizes that the State can give punishment that is proportional to the crime, provided that this type of punishment is not intrinsically evil or contrary to human dignity.
You may see a similar type of argument (regarding the type of punishment that the State can provide) here:
Capital Punishment, Dignity, and Authority: A Response to Ed Feser
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2011/09/4045/
Also, you may see John Finnis replying to Dr. Feser and provided an argument similar to development of doctrine on slavery.
Intentional Killing Is a Usurpation of God’s Lordship Over Life: A Reply to Edward Feser
https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/12/47548/
Thank you and appreciate your insights.
Chris,
DeleteThe issue you have with trying to point to development of doctrine on this point is manifold. For one thing, there's at least one statement from the 1866 Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith stating plainly that slavery is at least sometimes okay. Then Vatican II comes out and flatly contradicts it. If a decision made by the DDF, the actual Inquisition, can be contradicted by the Magisterium, how can we trust that it's right about anything? In addition, you could make a plausible case that, due to the fact that the Church did not take a strong, principled stand against slavery for 18 centuries or so, and in some cases positively sanctioned some forms of slavery, that the licitness of at least some forms of slavery is part of the Ordinary Magisterium. Then you'd have the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisteria contradicting each other. Basically, "Where Was God those 1800 years?"
Still, I recommend Chris Kellerman's book for a more thorough treatment of the subject:
https://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-church
Good day, EXE.
DeleteAppreciate your thoughts. Before I reply, kindly note that my comment is supposed to be understood in the context of death penalty discussion and development of doctrine, not if someone is arguing from "atheist perspective." I am unsure if you're an atheist. Actually, I've seen that the reference you cited was from an atheist, hence I was thinking if you're holding to those views and trying to ask some questions that imply some form of "contradictions" in the Catholic faith, including in your questions about the Pope if one day, he will wake up making some form of contradictory statements.
So, I would just like to reiterate that my purpose is always in the context of the actual discussion, particularly on proper understanding of development of doctrine in light of death penalty.
Now, if you're trying to bring this to somehow, a theist vs atheist debate, I won't be commenting further except for this particular reply. Nonetheless, as I previously explained in my former comment (since I had a feeling that your intention may be to try to insert some form of contradiction in Catholic faith), my approach is either classical approach or cumulative case approach, but at the very least, I am convinced of the existence of God, the fact that Jesus rose from the dead (either with the historical argument for resurrection or Shroud of Turin), then Catholic miracles and apparitions, together with Catholic apologetics as to why I believe Jesus established the Catholic Church. All of those have greater weight than the supposed "contradiction" in Magisterium which can be, and has already been addressed by others. Moreover, in my personal epistemological perspective, I don't prioritize the "contradiction" claims because some more evidence have greater weight than it, and I believe that what the Church teaches is internally coherent, or should I say, the truth will always be internally coherent.
Now, before I also address this non-infallible magisterial teaching (which can be contradicted technically speaking because, by definition, it's not infallible nor irreformable), I would like to show this definition of infallibility based on Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. According to Lumen Gentium by Vatican 2,
"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held."
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
Although it's easier to see the infallible teachings in extraordinary way, whether through ecumenical council or papal infallibility, the more "difficult" part is the one with Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, particularly when the bishops in union with the Pope believe and teach a particular teaching to be "definitively" held by the people. You don't have that here with the non-infallible magisterial teaching that you cited. It's not a definitive teaching that slavery (that is condemned by Vatican 2 as intrinsically evil) is part of natural law.
Now, there are some forms of slavery that are not intrinsically evil (in moral theology, having a proper definition of the act or moral object is important to know what is intrinsically evil and what is not). This is explained in the blog post below:
Is Slavery Intrinsically Evil?:
https://ronconte.com/2012/05/01/is-slavery-intrinsically-evil/
“Moreover, it sometimes happens that some dogmatic truth is first expressed incompletely (but not falsely), and at a later date, when considered in a broader context of faith or human knowledge, it receives a fuller and more perfect expression. In addition, when the Church makes new pronouncements she intends to confirm or clarify what is in some way contained in Sacred Scripture or in previous expressions of Tradition; but at the same time she usually has the intention of solving certain questions or removing certain errors.”
Deletehttps://www.vatican.va/content/dam/wss/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19730705_mysterium-ecclesiae_en.html
The word "falsely" here doesn't mean that there are no errors. Of course, it's really possible for non-infallible teachings to have errors, that's why they're called non-infallible. Rather, there is truth to these teachings, and sometimes, considering especially the historical condition of the time, it's difficult to know the truth from the error (and we have not lived in the time that it seemed that slavery is something that cannot be eliminated in the society).
What you'll see in the Tradition of the Church is that you have numerous teachings on how to properly care for slaves, on how to recognize their rights, some condemnations on slave trade, until there is a condemnation of slavery in itself (based on its proper definition as explained in the blog post I shared).
Granted, some Popes may be mistaken with how they properly understand natural law, in light of their historical condition. For example, it is true that some forms of servitude is permissible under natural law. Hence, a Pope may have some correct ideas, and still make a mistake in his application of moral evaluation. When I first looked at the link you've cited, the key thought I saw was the view that because we are rational beings, one can voluntarily choose to be under someone else. Hence, this Pope wasn't able to see what's wrong with buying slaves, etc, because in his perspective, this person uses his or her free will to be a slave. Of course, in natural law, not every free action is morally good. One should freely choose something that is morally good, not something contrary to human nature.
You asked, "Where was God in those 1,800 years?" Well, He's guiding the Church to have a more complete understanding of the truth in light of His Providence based on the historical condition of the time. We should not expect the Church to infallibly know and teach everything from the get go after the time of the apostles. That's now how development of doctrine works. The Church is both human and divine, the Church knows in the same way a human being knows, except that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church so that it will not teach heretical teachings definitively to its people. And, what's happening is that there are actually continuation of principles such as importance of charity towards slaves, that they have dignity, that there should be condemnation of trade slave etc, and we can see this in Tradition until the Church's understanding becomes more mature on this particular topic.
Kindly note by the way that this is not an example of contradiction in the Church that you asked of me in different thread about the Pope. That is particularly if the Pope will speak, whether non-infallibly or infallibly, that is directly contrary to an established definitive infallible teaching.
Moreover, just because there is proper development of doctrine here, it doesn't mean that we can no longer trust it about anything. You don't do that with your professors, I assume. We don't even do that with some experts, even those who are not infallible, that just because they could be mistaken, all of the sudden, we just can't trust everyone.
What's actually interesting is that there are some teachings that have always been definitive and really consistent (like condemnation of contraception) or doctrines that are just really definitive from the beginning (Real Presence of Jesus, Divinity, etc). So, just because based on the historical condition of the time that the Pope had a mistake, we can't automatically doubt everything. As some theologians mention, there is actually more development happening (development including some changes) when some actions are permitted and as time goes by, restrictions become more present. And, it would be false to think that the Church did not speak at all about slavery.
DeleteEven when we are doing some moral evaluation, it's easy to be more mistaken with what we think is permissible than what is not permissible because (if I'm going to make an analogy), there is a principle in morality that states: An action is good if it's good in every respect, it's wrong if it's wrong in any respect.
Someone (like the Pope) can see the "good" in slavery (even mistakenly) without seeing what the next Popes were able to see. And, although this is not ideal, this can really happen.
Nonetheless, this is not really an argument for contradiction in the Catholic Church just as I won't deny Eucharistic miracles, Marian apparitions, etc just because you have one explicit example of a non-infallible magisterial teaching that was contradicted afterwards, because by definition, non-infallible teachings can be contradicted. So, there's no really contradiction with Church's ecclesiology in that aspect or theology.
And, as I mentioned, I take a cumulative case approach and/or classical approach when it comes to apologetics. Some data have more weight, in my opinion, that is necessary for determining truth. If you have evidence for Eucharistic miracles, for example, at the very least, you have evidence for God approving the teachings of the Catholic Church when the events of the Eucharistic miracles are directly relevant to the Catholic Church (I am not addressing some nuance here). This is an indirect evidence for Church teachings, including in development of doctrine just as the miracles of Jesus are evidence for His teachings. But, I don't see the connection of saying that: "Well, some Popes contradicted the other popes in non-infallible and non-definitive teachings, therefore Eucharistic miracles did not happen or that Marian apparitions did not happen, or that Jesus did not rise from the dead." It seems the proper ordering of evidence and proper priorities are needed.
Interestingly, other than slavery and some teachings on punishments (where all of these are directly relevant to what's allowed by the societies in their historical period), we have very clear and consistent transmission of teachings that are already definitive before like with sexual ethics, sacraments, authority of the Pope, etc. The fact that the Catholic Church was the one that remained, of all other Christian denominations, on her view on contraception before in 1930s (considering this was already definitively held before), is a sign from providence at least if we will compare the Catholic Church with other sects or groups (regardless of your views on sexual ethics) consistency wise. Well, part of development of doctrine is maturity and humility.
I think, if I am just add development of doctrine is not just about a child becoming an adult. One image used by St. John Henry Newman that others don't usually cite is how the caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, sometimes, there has to be some sort of rupture from non-infallible teachings for the Church to truly blossom and have more perfect expression of truth.
Those are just my thoughts. If you're interested, you may also check this website from former atheist who converted to Catholic Church, including based on his study of Catholic miracles.
https://www.saintbeluga.org/
I appreciate having discussion with you. Thank you and have a nice day!
(1/2)
DeleteHi, Chris. I appreciate you having this conversation. However, the first thing I will say is that I am disappointed that you pointed out that the DDF Note was hosted on an atheist's website. This is true, but he is merely reproducing it. That you treat this fact as significant makes me worry that you are coming at this from an uncritical point of view, slanting the playing field in the favor of Catholicism. Onto the real points:
Well, even if DDF statements are not infallible, they are still authoritative and binding. Why was it acceptable that, for 99 years, the Church morally bound the faithful to believe something that is false, and which probably caused significant harm? Is this not cause for grave scandal? The point about comparing it to not trusting your professors because they may be wrong doesn't work because the DDF claims authority to bind the conscience. A professor, even the wisest, can only give his opinion, he could never morally require you to believe in him.
I also find your argument in general to be very scattershot and slipshod. You say that there's no reason for the Church to know everything from the beginning. First off, why not? Why does the Omnipotent, Omniscient, All-Loving God decide to leave His Church in darkness about an important moral topic for centuries? What about all the unnecessary suffering that was caused by the permission of slavery for those 18 centuries? Does that just not matter? Does God not care about those slaves? Or were they "acceptable losses" in the plan of salvation? There's the implication that people "weren't ready" to accept this teaching yet, or something, but again, I find this extremely unconvincing. God is, well, omnipotent, and in any case He seems to have no problem imposing other teachings that people find scandalous and difficult, so why is it so impossible for Him to tell people to not own slaves? It seems arbitrary to state that the Church could teach some crucial things immediately but had to wait on the Holy Spirit to update them on other crucial elements of the moral life. This sort of thing is easy to explain if Christianity is just a human invention reacting to the times, but it's very difficult to explain if Christianity really is established and guided by God. The fact that the teaching really didn't start to meaningfully change until after the secular world started to change its mind also weighs against it being divinely inspired. The Mormons claim that God told them polygamy was no longer allowed at precisely the same time that the US Government required them to ban it in order to be accepted as a state. Similarly, God told them that Black people were no longer to be considered spiritually inferior around about the same time as the Civil Rights movement made such beliefs publicly untenable. You would rightly state that the timing of these revelations is extremely suspicious and points to them being motivated by political concerns rather than being divine revelation. Why doesn't the Catholic Church's failure to evolve on teaching until the climate turned against that teaching indicate something similar?
(2/2)
DeleteRonconte's argument is appreciated, but it again misses important details. He tries to argue that the Church only allows slavery in the forms of penal servitude and indentured servitude, while forbidding the kinds of slavery that "deprive the human person of his or her fundamental human rights". Leaving aside for a second the fact that fundamental human rights is Liberal Enlightenment talk, the problem is that it's factually false. These were NOT the only forms of slavery that the Church approved of. Dum Diversas and Romanus Pontifex both explicitly permit for non-Christians fighting against Christian powers to be reduced to perpetual slavery. Perpetual slavery includes their children, under most common interpretations of that state.
As for St Beluga, it seems like he's relying largely on a bunch of miracle claims that I (and most people not pre-disposed to believe them) find extremely unpersuasive. The Shroud of Turin is generally considered to be Medieval by everyone except fringe cranks who propose fanciful theories to discredit the radiocarbon dating, plus the image resembles typical Medieval European depictions of Christ, which do not resemble what an actual Middle Eastern Jew would look like.
AnonymousJanuary 10, 2026 at 8:45 PM
ReplyDelete"Lotta incel energy coming from this post. Nothing concrete in any of the assertions, but it has that rancid vibe."
"Incel?" The only thing that is rancid is your mind.
This request is not completely 100% off-topic, because of the phrase "per se or intrinsically evil".
ReplyDeleteI believe that banking, as it is practiced today, around the world, is per se or intrinsically evil. A certain group of people (the banksters) are legally allowed to counterfeit, but the rest of us are not. When they counterfeit, they steal from people who have previously saved money in all forms. The amount of money stolen in this practice is staggeringly large; only God knows how much.
I have been asking the Catholic bishops for years to declare banking, as it is currently practiced around the world, as intrinsically immoral. They won't do it. Neither will they tell me that I am wrong. Neither will they give me an explanation for why I am wrong. Instead, I am met with silence.
I think that banking, as it is currently practiced, is per se or intrinsically evil. Even if the amount stolen was only $20/year, I would think the same. But due to the magnitude of the theft, it is clearly the 2nd most heinous crime in the world today. It is only 2nd, because it is clearly worse to lose your life than your money.
Dr Feser: will you please comment on this? Perhaps have an article about it. Am I wrong? Is banking, as it is practiced around the world today, not per se or intrinsically evil? If not, then why not? Please give logical arguments. If it is per se or intrinsically evil, then stealing is just as against the 10 Commandments as murder. Why won't the bishops address the issue? Have they no courage?
I am gravely disappointed that my point has received absolutely no attention. Everybody on this blog, Feser included, imitates the Catholic Bishops in ignoring me.
Delete"International humanitarian law", i.e., globalist institutions imposing abortion, gender ideology, and other delights on sovereign nations. No thanks, Your Holiness.
ReplyDeleteMaol, come on. Have a bit of cop on now. The image of internationalist institutions as some kind of nefarious conspiracy forcing Good Christian Countries to adopt the Ways of Satan is conspiratorial thinking. You're smarter than that. The spread of irreligion in the West is real, but it is not the product of some globalist plot. To the extent that internationalism represents an attempt to make the world less violent and war-torn, it should be supported. The real problem with it is the baked-in hypocrisy, namely that it is never applied consistently because the Big Dogs can always make themselves immune to whatever rulings they choose.
Deleteas some kind of nefarious conspiracy forcing Good Christian Countries to adopt the Ways of Satan is conspiratorial thinking.
DeleteNot at all. As George Carlin (no conservative) has noted: it doesn't take a conspiracy for people with like educations and like jobs and like financial pictures to act in ways harmonious with each other's visions of how to push things along. The liberal establishment from the 1960s through the 1990s included all of academia, all of the media, and most of the board rooms (in virtue of the fact that most of those in board rooms were people with higher degrees, and therefore the approval of academia). Even the outliers (in these groups) tended to be merely soft liberals rather than conservatives or some other stripe. (It is naturally the case that with the woke take-over of academia, there is a slightly different picture now, but the underlying point remains: an agreement of perspectives ensures the effect of coordination).
There is nothing wrong with "international forums" in theory. In actual practice, places like the EU and the UN have become gravely corrupted. E.G. the leadership of the UN at the time of the world's Iraq problem in 1997 - 2003 was mired in the corruption by which France and Russia defied and broke the UN's approved economic sanctions of Iraq and made deals with Hussein under the table, wrecking the prospects for international agreements to achieve a stable situation. The EU's notorious unelected committees in charge of whatever they put themselves in charge of seek to break down the individuality of countries, along with ruining subsidiarity and family rights.
When a pope (or any leader) speaks glowingly of the UN or "international bodies" without bothering to at least allude to some of the problems with THESE international entities that we actually have, you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. Sure, it WOULD be great if international entities and agreements were good models of upright and just order between the nations, but that rosy hypothetical isn't the real world right now. Claiming (or insinuating), as to ANY country, that they are bad actors solely because they are not acting (internationally) principally through the UN and the similar bodies is partisan cant. Or wilful deception.
I'll put this at the top to ensure exposure: It's false to suggest that the EU is "undemocratic". The members of the European Parliament are elected directly by voters. The European Council consists of members sent by each government in the EU, and each of those governments is democratically elected. Claiming that it's "not democracy" is like claiming that the United States is not democratic because the Cabinet is appointed by the President rather than elected, while ignoring the fact that the President is elected.
DeleteI'll grant that there is a definite tendency towards the Left in American academia and higher institutions. I deny that this is the result of a co-ordinated plot. I accept that agreement of principles can lead to co-ordinated effort despite the absence of explicit conspiracy. What would this actually mean, though? It would only entail that higher education tends to make you more Left-wing. Note that I am explicitly not making the more controversial and partisan claim that this indicates higher intelligence among Left-wingers. Most likely it's largely due to more frequent Contact with diverse viewpoints and peoples, which has been proven to significantly decrease prejudice. It's psychologically difficult to have bad feelings towards someone you realise is just another human being like yourself.
My point is that the idea of there being some large-scale "push" to advance elite liberal positions on conservative majorities is poorly-supported by evidence. Much of the time what evidence is produced to support the idea turns out to actually be propaganda from the Kremlin or from fringe Nationalist parties.
It seems like your objection is more to the point that liberal European countries like to spread liberalism, which is one thing, but that's just something you disagree with. It's not nefarious or undemocratic.
Do you co sided opposing the death penalty to be heretical? Is there any explicit proof that Jesus not letting an adulteress be executed was just because the rabbinical council wasn’t in Jerusalem at the time to stone her?
ReplyDeleteFirst, the passage in John 8 is not found in any of the earliest copies of John; most scholars argue it was not in the original text. Second, in the passage, Jesus's opponents are trying to trap him: if he answers one way, he opposes the Torah; if he answers another, he can be accused of subverting the Roman rule. If Jesus had not been there, the authorities would not have stoned the woman because that would have set the Romans upon them; so Jesus cannot be said to have prevented an execution that otherwise would have taken place. Third, Jesus never prohibited them from carrying out the death penalty. Fourth, there is no narrative aside explaining Jesus's statement as abrogating the death penalty.
DeleteGood day, Tim!
DeleteAppreciate your thoughts. May I ask you, are you a Catholic?
If yes, then the inspiration of John 8 is not based on what scholars say. It doesn't even have to be written by St. John for it to be Word of God just as Mark 16:16 doesn't have to be written by Mark (not sure if you also believe that to be inspired). Rather, as Catholics, we believe in the guidance of the Church in determining which books are in the Scriptures, and which passages are inspired texts. And, as far as I know, this is considered by the Church as Inspired, even if it may not be written by St. John himself.
With regards to Jesus being trapped, I mean, He was always being trapped. So, that's nothing new, but it doesn't mean it's not an opportunity for Him to teach on morals. In John 8, He said that those who don't have sin be the first to stone her, and He told the woman, "Go and sin no more."
Other than that, He actually made some statement that is relevant to abrogating death penalty.
Matthew 5:38-39
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;
Of course, Jesus doesn't teach that we should let the criminals strike us. But, He abrogated the principle, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." And, that's actually referring to death penalty (and use of torture which is now rejected by the Catholic Church as intrinsically evil, even if used to punish guilty).
Leviticus 24:19-21
19 When a man causes a disfigurement in his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him, 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has disfigured a man, he shall be disfigured. 21 He who kills a beast shall make it good; and he who kills a man shall be put to death.
Just for continuation, :)
DeleteRegarding the use of torture, even for the sake of punishing the guilty, this is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church say which can be the same development of doctrine taking place for death penalty.
2297 Kidnapping and hostage taking bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. Terrorism threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. TORTURE which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, PUNISH THE GUILTY, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.91
2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.
https://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
Veritatis Splendor also said,
"80 Reason attests that there are objects of the human act which are by their nature "incapable of being ordered" to God, because they radically contradict the good of the person made in his image (...)
The Second Vatican Council itself, in discussing the respect due to the human person, gives a number of examples of such acts: "Whatever is hostile to life itself, such as any kind of homicide, genocide, abortion, euthanasia and voluntary suicide; whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, physical and mental torture and attempts to coerce the spirit; "
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor.html
As such, it seems that even in other forms of punishment, the "pure retribution" type of arguments are rejected, including those that promote an intentional attack on human beings.
I hope this helps.
Chris,
DeleteI am a Protestant, not a Roman Catholic.
Against the right, he warns of “excessive nationalism," affirms "the importance of international humanitarian law," and notes that “a diplomacy that promotes dialogue and seeks consensus among all parties is being replaced by a diplomacy based on force… peace is sought through weapons as a condition for asserting one’s own dominion."
ReplyDeleteI note that if there is such a thing as "excessive nationalism", then there is such a thing as "the right amount of nationalism" too. It would be valuable for the pope and the Church to articulate THAT as a balance between the extremes.
And while it is true that "diplomacy" that consists primarily in "give me your stuff or I'll pound you flat" is unjust, diplomacy that relies solely on "international law", dialogue, and seeking consensus, and doesn't have a big stick to beat off attempted bullies, isn't going to actually accomplish anything either. International law only WORKS if somebody (or many of them) are prepared to back it up by force if someone violates it. Failure to EVER be willing to use such force (even if you have it) has the same effect as not having it at all, and either way international bullies will go on to their "give me your stuff or I'll pound you flat." So, "diplomacy" to suppress international unjust imperialism that has any chance of being useful must include a plausible threat of just force behind it. To date, in my adult life I have not seen one case where the Church positively acknowledged that "here's a just case of using such force". Does she truly believe that it has not happened? Or are the Church's leaders simply out to lunch on applying general principles to particulars in this area?
Nobody serious argues that the potential to use force is not necessary to ensure peace. I suspect that the Church's unwillingness to give clear examples of the just use of force is due to the extremely muddy and complicated nature of real conflicts, and a reluctance to "canonize" a particular conflict. Even the conflict usually though to be most morally unproblematic by Westerners (European and American involvement in WW2) featured numerous war crimes committed by the Allies, such as the murder of prisoners of war, the deliberate bombing of civilians, rape of civilians, unrestricted submarine warfare, the British causing or at least consciously permitting a famine in Bengal, and even our old favorite, racism (Black American soldiers being more likely to be punished for crimes than Whites, and also receiving harsher punishments when they were handed down).
DeleteI suspect that the Church's unwillingness to give clear examples of the just use of force is due to the extremely muddy and complicated nature of real conflicts, and a reluctance to "canonize" a particular conflict.
DeleteThis would be more plausible or acceptable if the Catholic officials (e.g. the pope or his secretary of state) stopped saying things like "war never again" and "the world should intervene, but not by violence, which just aggravates the conditions."
The Vatican has been perfectly willing to DISapprove equally muddy, complicated conflicts: while most of the world approved of the coalition to evict the Iraqi invaders out of Kuwait (1991), the Vatican rejected it vociferously, its reasons for objecting being later proven essentially mistaken.
It's fine to issue public denunciations of clearly immoral cases. But if they're going to stick their oar into complex, muddy cases, why is it ALWAYS against war, and why do they treat muddy, complex cases as if it's CLEAR that this is not a just war, rather than muddy? It's partly because the people in secretariats of state (diplomats) never think war is just, and they're the tail wagging the dog at places like the Vatican. They are often the worst offenders in phrasing things so that the just war concept is effectively thrown under the bus and the "war is always evil" prevails.