Saturday, May 17, 2025

Pope Leo XIV on families and the family of nations

Yesterday, Pope Leo XIV delivered an address to the diplomatic corps at the Vatican.   It was brief and very simple, but elegant and deep and shows the influence of his namesake Leo XIII and of his theological guide St. Augustine.  The world, Leo says, is a “family of peoples.”  And essential to the wellbeing of nations and the family of nations, he says, are peace, justice, and truth, where peace has justice and truth as its preconditions.  The talk is devoted to elaborating on these three themes.  What follows are some comments on Leo’s remarks.

Peace, Leo notes, is not merely a negative condition, namely the absence of conflict.  True peace between people has as a positive precondition a purity of heart that entails freedom from pride and vindictiveness, and a will to cooperate and understand rather than to conquer.  Here there is an echo of Augustine’s famous account of peace as “the tranquility of order,” where order involves a unity of purpose.  Peace in a community requires agreement on an end, and for Augustine it must be the right end.  What end is that?  For Augustine it is God, and significantly, Leo remarks that “peace is first and foremost a gift.  It is the first gift of Christ.”  (I have more to say about Augustine’s account of peace in a recent Postliberal Order article.)

Turning to justice, Leo indicates that this too requires well-ordered societies.  In this connection, he calls attention to Leo XIII’s famous social encyclical Rerum Novarum.  Importantly, while he mentions working conditions, poverty, and the like, his emphasis is on something else.  He says:

It is the responsibility of government leaders to work to build harmonious and peaceful civil societies.  This can be achieved above all by investing in the family, founded upon the stable union between a man and a woman, “a small but genuine society, and prior to all civil society.”  In addition, no one is exempted from striving to ensure respect for the dignity of every person, especially the most frail and vulnerable, from the unborn to the elderly, from the sick to the unemployed, citizens and immigrants alike.

The phrase in quotation marks is from Rerum Novarum, and it is the one direct quote from that document.  Like Leo XIII and other popes who have set out Catholic social teaching, Leo emphasizes that the health of the family is the fundamental precondition of the health of society, and that seeing to the health of the family is one of the duties of governing officials. 

This basic truth of Catholic social teaching is radically at odds with long-prevailing attitudes on both the political left and the political right.  Both, in their different ways, wrongly insist on emphasizing economics rather than morality and culture when addressing social problems.  Both have essentially endorsed the sexual revolution and its transformation in attitudes about divorce, extramarital sex, homosexuality, and the like, albeit the right has done so in a more gradual, piecemeal, and in some cases reluctant manner.  And both have now essentially adopted the libertarian position that even if one laments the sexual revolution, government has no place in trying to roll it back.  From the point of view of Catholic social doctrine, true social justice cannot be achieved until we at long last abandon these errors.

On the topic of truth, Leo says:

Where words take on ambiguous and ambivalent connotations, and the virtual world, with its altered perception of reality, takes over unchecked, it is difficult to build authentic relationships, since the objective and real premises of communication are lacking.  For her part, the Church can never be exempted from speaking the truth about humanity and the world, resorting whenever necessary to blunt language that may initially create misunderstanding.

Though earlier in his address, he had also called for “carefully choosing our words.  For words too, not only weapons, can wound and even kill.”

Leo’s point here seems to be, first, that one obstacle to truth prevailing in human relationships today is the degree to which people’s perceptions are shaped by the “virtual world” – social media and the like, with the biases, groupthink, hot takes, and emotion-driven commentary that it fosters.  This virtual world is reminiscent of the shadows on the wall of Plato’s cave, which radically distort the understanding of those who dwell in it.

Another obstacle to truth, Leo indicates, is the way that language is so often used today as a weapon or a means of obfuscation, rather than a means of communicating for the sake of mutual understanding and describing objective reality.  Hence the tendency of politicians to use words to flummox opponents, rile up allies, and keep citizens perpetually off balance and divided; and of ideologues to introduce novel usages so as to lend false plausibility to rank sophistries (think of the violence done to language by gender theory, for example). 

Leo teaches that we must remain grounded in objective reality and insist on using language to convey that reality, even bluntly wherever necessary.  This, he goes on to say, is what charity requires, for genuine unity between people must be grounded in truth.  And ultimately, he also says, “truth is not the affirmation of abstract and disembodied principles, but an encounter with the person of Christ himself, alive in the midst of the community of believers.”

This emphasis on truth as ultimately Christocentric once again echoes Augustine.  It also once again echoes Leo XIII, who in Rerum Novarum not only emphasizes that getting the family right is a basic precondition of social justice, but also that, even more fundamentally, “no satisfactory solution will be found unless religion and the Church have been called upon to aid.”  As Leo XIII went on to say in that grand encyclical:

Without hesitation We affirm that if the Church is disregarded, human striving will be in vain… And since religion alone, as We said in the beginning, can remove the evil, root and branch, let all reflect upon this: First and foremost Christian morals must be reestablished, without which even the weapons of prudence, which are considered especially effective, will be of no avail, to secure well-being.

One last remark about Leo XIV’s address.  His phrase “family of peoples” is, I think, especially apt today as an implicit correction to two opposite extreme errors found on the opposite sides of the political spectrum.  On the left we find a globalism that tends to dissolve borders and treats national loyalties as if they are somehow inherently suspect.  On the right we find a jingoistic bellicosity that overcorrects for this globalism.  To see the world as a family of peoples is to see what is wrong with both of these extremes.  For distinct peoples have a right to preserve what defines them as a people, culturally, linguistically, and economically.  But a good member of a family of peoples does not bully or intimidate or lord it over other family members.

81 comments:

  1. Denmark seems like a harmonius and peaceful civil society, and it has had gay marriage for many years. It also has a restrictive immigration policy. Perhaps it is ethnic and cultural homogeneity that is really required? Unless the claim is considered axiomatically true, in which case it seems like it can simply be disregarded as having no connection to actual visible peace and harmony.

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    1. What is the birth rate in Denmark?

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    2. Conservatives always say European countries are happy because ethnic homogeneity makes people happy. I don’t buy this. If it were true then every country with high degrees of ethnic homogeneity would be happy, and more homogeneity would correlate with greater happiness. This isn’t the case. There are tons of homogenous countries where loads of people want to leave and start a new life in diverse counties like the U.S.

      Liberals always say welfare states make people happy. Denmark has one of those too.

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    3. The contrast between Leo’s call for peace and justice with the craven, lawless and wildly immoral behavior of world leaders could not be clearer. We live in a time where the notions of law and basic morality between nations has taken a backseat to the vain and petty ambitions of egotistical leaders who do not care whom they hurt as long as it helps them politically.

      I am not Catholic but I think there is a deep insight in Catholicism’s view that man is a fundamentally fallen species.

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    4. To answer this, see Feser's first paragraph: mere absence of conflict isn't enough. Peace rests upon both justice and truth, and in this particular case Denmark has foregone the latter for the sake of avoiding uncomfortable conversations.

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    5. Dictatortot,

      It is difficult therefore to see how a peaceful and harmonius society would visibly be different from Denmark, and then your reasoning simply amounts to what i said in my most, namely that for a Catholic any society that allows gay marriage simply isnt harmonius and peaceful, axiomatically because gay marriage is a lie. So you are left simply shaking your head and yelling "no, its not harmonius and peaceful" no matter how harmonius and peaceful it actually appears, in which case Catholic "peace and harmony" has simply no relation of any kind to the way those ideas and concepts are used in actual everyday understanding. And that makes Catholic teaching far from a practical social doctrine, but instead an esoteric and irrelevant one. Which i dont think many cathplics would endorse.

      Or, to put it frankly, if Catholics see Danish society and loudly proclaim it not harmonius and peaceful on the basis it has gay marriage, despite it being manifestly more harmonius and peaceful than 99% of all societies that have ever existed, including most traditional ones, then it makes Catholics look insane.

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    6. @Dmt117: This paper explains that Denmark and other northern European states have higher birth rates than more conservative southern European and East Asian states. The author's conclusion is that in places like Italy, Japan, and Korea, women are under a lot of economic pressure to work like everywhere else, but social norms are such that women are expected to do all of the domestic work with little or no assistance from their husbands. This discourages women from having as many kids as they otherwise might. In "woke" Denmark (or the UK, US, etc.), a man is more likely to cook, clean, change a diaper, or stay at home if his wife has a better paying job. This culture difference seems to be worth about 0.5 baby per woman (all first world countries and a decent chunk of developing countries are below 2.1 TFR).

      https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w33311/w33311.pdf

      It seems that having conservative cultural norms actually discourages having kids, unless one goes all the way like the Amish or Hasidim do.

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    7. @Anonymous: "Scientific Socialism cannot err. Therefore, words mean what we say they mean." Oh, wait ...

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    8. Anon, what do you mean by "axiomatic"? Augustine's concept of peace is a conclusion not an axiom; it's inferred from prior principles. Moreover, for Catholics, social teaching is not about merely "practical consequences" but an application of Catholic principles grounded on a metsphysical and moral conception of the world that goes beyond material consequences. For us, it is the fate of your soul that is ultimately st stake, and a "peaceful" society (in non-athletic liberal terms) can diabolically conceal the risks that it poses to souls.

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    9. Well, Anonymous, you might just have to fetch me my straitjacket then. Because I do believe that truth is an important prerequisite for a peace worthy of the name. I seem to remember a story about a Danish prince whose concern for truth & justice led him to reject the kingdom's surface harmoniousness, and damn the consequences. Of course he looked crazy to people as well, so maybe we can safely dismiss him.

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    10. Rene,

      Yes, well that is all well and good, but if Catholic social doctrine on peace and harmony is to have any relevance to the world beyond the Catholic sphere it should have some connection to the peace and harmony people actually observe. Otherwise it suffers from the problem i noted earlier: it makes Catholics look insane to deride as not peaceful or harmonius societies which by any objective measure are more peaceful and harmonius than 99% of societies that have ever existed. And it appears to falsify the core claim made above, that the health of the family (as understood by Catholics anyway) is fundamental to peaceful and harmonius societies. Because we actually have societies now not based on the Catholic vision, that are manifestly peaceful and harmonius.

      This seems like a massive failure of Catholicism when speaking to non-Christiab/Catholic communities, like in the secular West.

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    11. Anon, you consider appearances as more important than the truth?

      Consider a society that butchers a segment of its population. But it does so in secret, so that the other citizens are unaware of this.

      Would that society be at peace? Would it be a just society?

      Or would it just appear to be either of those things?

      If you bite the bullet and say it only appears to be at peace or to be just, but that appearances are more important than what is actually the case, I think you'll see that position (which I'm describing here, not yet attributing to you, just asking) is the more insane one, even if its more in line with how things appear. That is because sanity is concerned with the truth, not with appearances.

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    12. I think most faithful Catholics would see the legal recognition of same-sex couples as a symptom of cultural norms surrounding marriage and family rather than being a major causal factor in itself. In point of fact, divorce and out-of-wedlock childbirth are probably both at least an order of magnitude greater in terms of societal effect than gay marriage is. Gay marriage's importance lays more in what it has done to push the overton window.

      Put briefly, if you are evaluating the claim that the health of society directly corresponds to the health of marriage & family, the example you picked was not a good one. If you can find examples of healthy societies where polygamy, serial monogamy, and single-parent household are a norm, that would be a more interesting counter-argument. Same-sex couples are simply too insignificant a portion of the larger population to be a major factor.

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    13. From above: "True peace between people has as a positive precondition a purity of heart that entails freedom from pride and vindictiveness, and a will to cooperate and understand rather than to conquer."

      This seems a pretty good description of Danish society, not the murderous one you describe. But to your point more broadly, yes i would consider it ridiculous to call a manifestly peaceful and harmonius society that incorporated some lie into it to not therefore be peaceful and harmonius. It would just mean that 100% truth is not required for peace and harmony. I can see if your a Catholic that if you consider any error to be an impediment to peace and harmony that any non-Catholic society is always going to be considered to a certain extent non peaceful or harmonius. But that doesnt really avoid my point earlier that in that case Catholic social doctrine has nothing to say to the outside besides "become Catholics". And if thats the point, then we may as well just collapse the point down into "in order to be a just society you must be Catholic", which is a message, but hardly one relevant to any society that is happily non-Catholic enjoying its manifest peace and harmony.

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    14. Anon at 1:49am,

      Sane people will always look insane to the insane. And Christians will always look insane to the world. Jesus predicted that. I'm sure that's how they were seen by most Romans when they were dying in the most gruesome ways because they refused to burn incense to the idols, rather than acquiescing to just be at "peace" with Roman society.

      But maybe I can offer an example using Denmark so you can better understand us. The abortion rate in that country is about 15 k a year. I don't know the exact numbers, but let's go with that. Now, suppose a scenario where Denmark, while maintaining that rate of 15 k abortions per had a rate of 0 homicides, rape cases, traffic accidents or whatever violent events you can imagine. That would certainly look like a perfectly peaceful society to a modern liberal person, and no doubt you would flaunt it as an example. But do you think that it would make sense from a Catholic point of view? Of course not. No Catholic could call that type of society a peaceful one, and no sane person should. So we are left back with the initial question, was is true peace? Is it the liberal's peace or the Catholic's? That's what we need to find out, regardless of who sees the other side as insane. Once we settle that question, we can find out who's insane.

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    15. Ccmnxc,

      I only used the example of gay marriage and homosexuality was explicitly listed by Feser in his post.

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    16. @anonymous on May 18 9:28am

      "It seems that having conservative cultural norms actually discourages having kids, unless one goes all the way like the Amish or Hasidim do."

      Husbands not changing diapers or helping with housework is not "conservative" or traditional. I'm a traditional Catholic and I change diapers, sweep floors, do dishes, mow the lawn and do diy projects. So does my wife. Most people in our rather large traditional Catholic network live the same way and have 5+ kids.

      It seems to me that some Christian subcultures operate the way you say, with rigid stereotypes, but I would not generalize that very far.

      If I saw a man come home from work and sit on the couch drinking while his wife was struggling to make supper and watch the kids, I'd think quite a bit less of him - and perhaps give him a piece of my mind. So would every Catholic man (and every Protestant man) I know.

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    17. For the suicide rate, Denmark sits right between Mozambique and Mauritius, despite being an extremely wealthy country with significant investment in mental health services and social welfare.

      It's so peaceful, people want to die as if they live in corrupt poverty stricken and war torn countries.

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    18. And conversely a lot lower than social conservatives' perceived Utopia of Hungary (at no. 20), or Russia (no. 9). So perhaps suicide rates mean nothing in this consideration?

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    19. Russia isn't a social conservative nation, by any standard. It's another example of a corrupt borderline poverty stricken war-torn country.

      Hungary isn't nearly as wealthy, it's still a developing nation, and it also has a significant corruption problem, as well as not so much investment in mental health.

      There is no reason why the Danes so badly want to die, if it's a peaceful and also prosperous place. The suicide rate is strong evidence that it's either not peaceful or not prosperous (or both). But it's obviously prosperous, therefore?

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    20. It's so peaceful, people want to die as if they live in corrupt poverty stricken and war torn countries.

      Why? What kind of unwinnable mode are they trapped in?

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    21. Russia is socially conservative when it comes to homosexuality, and the family more generally. As is Hungary. And there have been many poor socities with low suicide rates in the past, so i doubt poverty is an issue (see also the lower rankings of numerous African nations who are far poorer and far more corrupt).

      I think you are incorrect to infer that a peaceful and harmonius society is sufficient to deter suicidal ideation. I cant explain it, but the lack of correlation between "family values" culture and suicide would appear to indicate that the family (as understood by Catholics anyway) is not fundamental to society. I would hazard a guess that strong religious belief against suicide plays a factor. See e.g. the numerous Islamic states which are lowest on the list.

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    22. For the suicide rate, Denmark sits right between Mozambique and Mauritius, despite being an extremely wealthy country with significant investment in mental health services and social welfare.

      The data I see from various websites don't agree, putting Denmark around 10 per 100,000, slightly better than Norway, Sweden, and Hungary (coming in at 11, 12 and 12), which are again better than the US and Austria at 14 and 14. But the claimed numbers are unreliable with many discrepancies, with 4 pt variances common.

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    23. Anymouse,

      "The data I see from various websites don't agree"

      Mozambiques suicide rate is 10.6 per 100,000. Mauritius is 9.5.

      "slightly better than Norway, Sweden, and Hungary"

      Yea, all those countries also have problems with suicide. They all have suicide rates equivalent to corrupt war-torn poverty stricken countries. The idea of the scandinavian countries being these utopias of happiness is a myth. That's my point. It's stupid to point to them.

      Anon,

      "Russia is socially conservative when it comes to homosexuality, and the family more generally."

      In some ways yes, in some ways no. 1/4 of all children in Russia live in single-mother households, pretty similar to the US actually. Russia ranks pretty low in the number of people who think family is important.

      Social conservatism is only a recent growing phenomena in the lower classes in Russia. I think you are confusing current govt policy with the actual social and cultural situation on the ground.

      "the lower rankings of numerous African nations who are far poorer and far more corrupt"

      Because, while they are poor and there is severe govt corruption (that is a major cause of a lot of the poverty), among the people, they are actually socially conservative. So, even when everything is horrible, they are able to still maintain strong families with a strong sense of duty, and don't want to die. This is proving my point.

      However, if I were to take a shot at proposing a nation that is perhaps the closest to a social conservative utopia, where social conservatism is embraced at all levels of society, it would probably be a small nation, like Brunei or something.

      "the lack of correlation between "family values" culture and suicide"

      There is no lack. You just applying "family values" to nations that don't have them, or where this is only a recently growing phenomena. In basically all studies, there is an obvious inverse correlation between "family values" and suicide that transcends economics, race, etc.

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    24. Brunei where polygamous marriages are legal? Is that consistent with a peaceful and harmonius society and social conservatism?

      My point, of course, is that a society only being peaceful and harmonius does not by that fact mean that it is sufficient for human flourishing. So the fact you can point to Danish society with a high rate of suicide does not negate it being peaceful and harmonius, it merely demonstrated that peace and harmony are not suffiicent to satisfy the human heart.

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    25. I never said Brunei was perfect, I said it was possibly the closest that came to mind.

      And again, you are confusing the govt policy with the on the ground situation. Polygamous marriage may be legal, but it's not culturally practiced and extremely rare, as well as extremely restricted legally. Monogamy is the social and cultural situation on the ground.

      I never said the human heart must be satisfied. That isn't possible in this life. But there is a large gap between being satisfied and wanting to end your own life. Ending your own life implies a lack of hope. One can be dissatisfied but still hopeful.

      BTW, sexual violence is a HUGE problem in Denmark, but it's laws aren't fit to even be able to charge people for it in many cases. The question is: Is Denmark peaceful and harmonious, or does it only seem like it on paper?

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    26. can you guys at least pick a pseudonym? lol

      To Anon at 4:48 am, you're question about Denmark having real peace is on point. The other Anon assumes that mere lack of physical conflict is peace, while obviously Catholics don't accept that definition of peace, so the debate should be about what is peace in the first place. Moreover, it's doubtful that lack of conflict is true peace even in a purely materialistic paradigm that discards spiritual warfare. Consider for example 3 guys that are in a perpetual Mexican standoff, are they in peace with each other even though nobody has fired shots for years? Clearly, you can have situations where there is no violence but even a liberal or materialist person wouldn't be so eager to consider peaceful. And also, I'd like the other Anon explain how a society that kills 15 k of its unborn per year is "peaceful".

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    27. You are missing the point, which is that a higher suicide rate is not an indication of a peaceful and harmonius society. It is a society that certainly lacks something, but that something isnt peace and harmony.

      Earlier you said that people in African nations were social conservative, and hence didnt kill themselves. However, given those socities are clearly violent and lack harmony (cf the government corruption you cite as one example), social conservatism doesnt seem to lead to prosperity, peace, or harmony. The fact you can cite one specific social conservative nation (Brunei) that exemplifies the social conservative Utopia, but the number of nations which lack social conservative values and yet are much more peaceful and harmonius than many so con nations seems to militate against the conclusion that so con values are a particularly strong component of peace and harmony. youve found a diamond in a heap of slag.

      I dont deny that having a strong religious background (I note many of the least suicidal nations are Islamic) hinders suicide if for no other reason then fear of damnation/punishment. But then there are other trade offs, like strict blasphemy and apostasy laws, which violate peace and justice in other ways.

      I havent found recent stats on the sexual abuse rate in Brunei so cant make a comparison.

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    28. Rene,

      The Mexican standoff example you give is clearly not applicable to Denmark, given that their society has a pretty high "freedom from pride and vindictiveness, and a will to cooperate and understand rather than to conquer."

      On the subject of abortion rates i would point out that denmark has a lower abortion rates than many other more socially conservative nations, like Pakistan.

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    29. To put this more fully, we can imagine a league table of "peaceful and harmonius" societies, with a theoretical maximal peaceful and harmonius human society not being achievable. However in that case the question is how can one achieve the maximally possible peaceful and harmonius society. It is difficult to see how any even slightly peaceful and harmonius society could be built on a foundation contrary to Catholic doctrine on family. But clearly they can, as Denmark and many western nations attest. So good Catholic family policy is clearly not a foundation for peace and harmony because peace and harmony exist to a certain extent in socially liberal nations. One would have to argue that e.g. Denmark is not at all peaceful and harmonius, which is quite obviously nonsense. So all we have come down to is an argument about the exact hierarchy of peaceful and harmonius nations. You appear to be of the view that Brunei is the most maximally peaceful and harmonius society, however it is a society founded on absolute monarchy, sharia law, controls on apostasy and blasphemy that restrict Christian religious practices like evangelism. But, if one accepts the view that suicide is a useful measure of how peaceful or harmonius a society is, then sure Brunei is more peaceful and harmonius than Denmark on that measure. However on other measures Denmark would be, and in contradiction to the OP that would be despite rejecting Catholic social values.

      Feser says that the "health of the family is the fundamental precondition of the health of society". But if it is so fundamental, then how come so many socially liberal socities are more peaceful and harmonius than so many so con socities. One may say war, poverty, corruption, etc. But that merket pushed the point further back. If so con values are so vital and important, how is it possible that so many so con and Christian nations are violent, corrupt, and poor. It wont do to say the causation is the opposite way round, because these nations are not newly so con. The corruption and violence could stop today (the poverty is a trickier issue). But it doesnt.

      If the health of the family is the fundamental precondition of the health of society then why is it so obviously the case that many socities are peaceful and harmonius (in the scale of what socities can actually achieve) while rejecting this Catholic view? Any answer given (e.g. wealth etc) would thereby concede that it is not a fundamental precondition, but rather simply one of many factors.

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    30. Tom, thanks for picking a pseudonym, it was hard to follow the convo with that many anons.
      I wouldn't qualify any liberal society as "free from pride", not from a Catholic perspective at least. Typically, liberal societies consider pride a virtue, rather than a vice, and I don't think Denmkar is the exception. So, I'd say you're reading Feser wrong here. The problem is that we keep equivocating terms in this conversation, you're using terms like "pride" and "freedom" in a different sense than us Catholics. That's why I insist that the discussion should be at the level of ontology: what are pride and freedom? For Catholics pride is THE capital vice, for liberals, it's something to celebrate. Obviously, this would render an entirely different analysis when applied to practical cases, like Denmark. So for example, to illustrate the completely different metaphysics that we hold; you consider only consequences at the material level, while for us ultimately what matters is the ultimate destiny of the human soul. I haven't read your comment at 6:17 am yet, so I'll comment on that later.

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    31. Rene, I got one too.

      We aren't missing the point. We are disagreeing with your view of peaceful. To quote Ultron from the second Avengers move: "I think your confusing 'peace' with 'quiet'"

      Regarding African countries, only some are violent and not peaceful. They are poor and have corrupt govts, but that doesn't mean violent. Many African nations that are socially conservative and aren't recovering from war or been taken over by invading rebel groups, are relatively peaceful. Yes, corrupt govt is a strike against harmony, but even social conservatism can't fix entrenched problems over night.

      Brunei is just one stand out example. Another is Bhutan. But, there are many decent examples that are maybe not on the level of Brunei, but still decent. Ghana is an African nation that comes to mind, which is quite harmonious for their current situation, among many others.

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    32. Ghana that has an abortion rates far higher than Denmark? Is that consistent with a peaceful and harmonius society?

      Again, this comes back to all we are doing is quibbling about what measures one uses to define "peaceful and harmonius". But even that quibbling shows the ultimate falsity of the OPs point - that the family is *fundamental* to the health and well being of a society, because there are plenty of examples where that is not the case, where liberal nations exceed social conservative nations in terms of peace and harmony.

      And as i said earlier, these nations are not newly so con, yet the corruption continues to exist. So having a strong family foundation is no bulwark against having a violent or unjust society.

      I am using the idea of peace and harmony that OP puts forward, namely "True peace between people has as a positive precondition a purity of heart that entails freedom from pride and vindictiveness, and a will to cooperate and understand rather than to conquer."

      Denmark exemplifies mutual social understanding and cooperation rather than the will to conquer. It is not vindictive. In terms of pride, i mean from a Catholic perspective any modern nation that fails to put Jesus at its head is guilty of pride to a certain extent, however considered with any degree of historical perspective Danish society is not especially prideful. No more so than all human communities are.

      I find it amusing you assert African countries arent violent (apart from all those in chronic war or without invading rebel groups). Lol, in which im a Millionaire (apart from my lack of money).

      Also Ghana has a higher murder rate than Denmark, so on both the basis of murder rate and abortion rate Ghana is less peaceful and harmonius than Denmark.

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    33. Tom, (I'm assuming you're anonymous at May 29 12:45 am)

      The problem is that you're interpreting Feser by using your own paradigm. Thus, when he talks about the health and wellbeing of a society, you read it as a liberal or secular conception of societal wellbeing. But Feser conceives wellbeing in a different way; in terms of the ultimate end of the human being, which is to know and love God. He lays out this conception in several places throughout his work but especially relevant to our discussion is his Postliberal Order article about peace and Liberalism (https://www.postliberalorder.com/p/liberal-discord-postliberal-peace), where he analyses St. Augustine's conception of peace. There he explains that peace is the tranquility of order, and by order he means that the components of society are directed towards their proper end, which again, is ultimately to know and love God. Therefore a society can have absence of conflict and there could be cooperation towards worldly goods, such as in the case of Denmark, but if such society is not ordered to the ultimate end, then it can't really be peaceful. And indeed, a society that allows fornication, sodomy and abortion is not properly ordered to know and love God and thus doesn't have true peace (despite the appearances that lead the liberal/secular person to conclude that it is indeed peaceful just because it lacks conflict and people are cooperating towards the achievement of worldly goods)

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  2. He seems both wise and balanced, from the little I’ve seen. Much of what he says is not that different to Francis in some ways, but I have to admit finding it difficult to be drawn to what Francis said and wrote. John Paul II’s encyclicals were at least some part of the appeal that drew me in to the Church, something that continued with Benedict.

    It will be interesting to see how he handles those on the left and the right who are clearly beyond the fold of the Church in doctrine. I hope he focuses on the ideal we should all be aiming for, being clear on the limits but not waging a war either. Yes there are people who want to bend the Church to fit their personal views, clearly a Protestant instinct mixed with a subconscious desire to be justified, but the best way to deal with those is to smile and ignore. The Church needs to be open to the world as it is, without mirroring it as it is. It must have compassion on the destitute, but not by political lecturing to a world already drowning in political lecturing. Such stuff has made the Anglican bishops in the UK seem like irrelevant wanna-be politicians. Instead it must speak to the way in which the world’s problems are mostly in each of our own hearts. Without discernment, each of us often listens to the loud voice inside us, the one that froths with pride and a desire to be loved and praised, rather than the quiet voice centred in peace.

    It’s a narrow path for him to steer and I’m sure he will soon be annoying many on either ‘side’ no matter what he does. But I think we have good reason to hope he will be a bridge to those who have ears to hear, and that would be a very good thing indeed.

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  3. It probably helps that Denmark is a small country, and most people there are physically close to their families and childhood friends. I don't know how long it takes to get from one end of Denmark to the other, but it's probably not the all-day flight that I have to endure to visit my hometown.,

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  4. What we in the USA were as people, culturally, linguistically and economically in 1950, is not what we are now. It will change even more in another 75 years. And divorce, extramarital sex, and homosexuality are not going to be "rolled back" by the government, no matter which party is in power.

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    1. are not going to be "rolled back" by the government, no matter which party is in power.

      As a projection of the recent past onto the future, this is more probable than any other outcome. But "more probable" leaves open other possibilities: for example, it was becoming ever more probable (rising from a miniscule probability in 1970 to above 10% in 2024) that America will undergo a new civil war, splinter, and that the former GOP and Democrat parties both would cease to exist as such, other forces take control, and that at least in some areas, government would restrict divorce, prohibit extramarital sex, and prohibit homosexual acts.

      But the more interesting question isn't whether government doing this is "probable" or not, it is whether doing so is, or MIGHT be, good, and if so, how to prudently pursue it as a long range goal even if not within immediate view. For those who think that it's absolutely not government's role to do these, I am sure that the slim prospect of it happening in the near future is comforting. But you should at least ask yourself what kinds of social goods are you willing to lose because the government no longer attempts to restrict divorce, extramarital sex, or sodomy, because it is surely the case that some social goods are being lost.

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    2. There are 340 million people in the U.S. and our criminal justice system is barely able to prosecute violent crimes, property crimes and statutory crimes. There is no way it is ever going to be able to also prosecute what you consider to be immoral acts. States stopped trying to enforce morality laws decades ago because it was impractical to do so and a waste of scarce resources. Whatever social goods you think are being lost would be far outweighed by the loss of personal freedom.

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    3. and our criminal justice system is barely able to prosecute violent crimes, property crimes and statutory crimes

      I take it that you think violent crimes and property crimes are bad. Good, so do I.

      Have you asked yourself the degree to which the increase in these crimes is due to the policy change not to protect families from divorce and extramarital sex? If you haven't, that's precisely ignoring the issue I mentioned: what goods are you willing to lose for the benefit of this "personal freedom" that until 1950 was not viewed as a necessary aspect of freedom in a society already long considered free? The freedom of a man to get a no-fault divorce from his wife to pursue his secretary, and condemn his wife and kids to poverty and fatherlessness is freedom FOR HIM but a narrowing of freedom for the others.

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    4. "what goods are you willing to lose for the benefit of this "personal freedom" that until 1950 was not viewed as a necessary aspect of freedom in a society already long considered free?"
      Even in red states, women will never tolerate going back to the days when women had to cope with domestic violence and lived under the subjugation of their husbands.
      My freedom is not narrowed if my next door neighbor is having an affair with his secretary, and he could still be having an affair even if no fault divorce laws were abolished.
      Maybe you want an America with morality police like in Iran. I do not, and neither do most sane Americans.

      Perhaps you wish to live in a nation with morality police like in Iran. I, and most other Americans, do not.


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    5. Even in red states, women will never tolerate going back to the days when women had to cope with domestic violence and lived under the subjugation of their husbands.

      Regardless of whether blue or red states, most wives were not physically abused by their husbands, and a great many women didn't view their partnership in marriage as "subjugation" the way you seem to.

      Perhaps you wish to live in a nation with morality police like in Iran.

      Straw man argument: in 1950, we did not have morality police like in Iran. Nor in 1850. There are plenty of ways a government can influence and promote sound family morality without the heavy hand of an ayatollah, as demonstrated by Christian societies for many hundreds of years.

      In any case, "morality police" is a silly name: simply "the police" is part of the social framework for enforcing law, and ALL law is society's judgment about morally acceptable behavior, including ecological protections, not dumping trash, and zoning constraints. If you don't want police enforcing such moral judgments, you just don't want police at all.

      You seem to prefer the condition we have now, wherein the contract of marriage - one of the most important contracts to a person's welfare and happiness over decades of life - is the only one simply not protected by law. There is little or no intellectual or social coherence to such a social order - or rather, disorder. Why should the state even bother defining and recognizing marriage at all? If the state doesn't care who has sex and who has kids and who raises kids and how, why not just drop all laws that touch on such topics and let people "do what they want"? That's freedom, isn't it?

      By the way, the fact that I am suggesting that the state can legitimately have a role in defending marriage doesn't mean I want to "return to the 1950's", certainly not in every respect, and certainly not as to every country out there (there were some a lot more tyrannical than the Iran of 1950 - which ironically was not ruled by ayatollahs and was much more open than today).

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    6. My freedom is not narrowed if my next door neighbor is having an affair with his secretary,

      Au contraire: your freedom is affected first by your being asked by the wife (your neighbor) whom he left to help her manage to save her house and family from financial ruin; secondly by the harmed kids whom your kids play with, kids who don't have a father to help raise them, and among whom mental illness, juvenile disorder and later broken relationships runs rampant; and thirdly by the costs - including raised taxes - of increased drug use, violent crimes, psychiatric bills at state institutions, and lost productivity from those kids. You pay, and your freedom (and your kids') is affected.

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    7. Yes, the govt can promote marriage. Nothing wrong with that.

      If we went back to the days of before no fault divorce, wives were treated by their husbands far worse than they are now.

      In any case, in red states, when laws to legalize abortion are placed on the ballot, they usually pass because even pro life women want to keep their autonomy. Rights once given are not easily taken away. The women of today are not the women of 1950.

      Why the hell would my next door neighbor's wife ask me to help her at all? Who said anything drug use? What kids? That paragraph is one giant non-sequitur and makes no sense.

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    8. @anonymous on May 20 at 12:31pm

      "If we went back to the days of before no fault divorce, wives were treated by their husbands far worse than they are now."

      Can we not slander a whole generation? I have a feeling many men in your family tree would be a bit resentful of such a characterization.

      I'm also pretty sure modern porn-saturated boy-men are hardly better spousal material to women, not that women are in much better condition these days.

      Maybe us enlightened folk can all afford to learn a bit from our ancestors.

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    9. Also, abortion referendums swing to abortion rights not because pro-life women are inconsistent, but because there is a lot of soft pro-life support that gets turned when Abortion Inc. dumps tens of millions of dollars in scaremongering propaganda about women supposedly dying because of pro-life laws. And yes, I'd be willing to debate any single case you or any other pro-choicer brings forward.

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    10. Interesting that Missouri legislators are now seeking to overturn the will of the people.
      https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/missouri-lawmakers-pass-referendum-seeking-to-repeal-abortion-rights-amendment-approved-by-voters-last-year
      Abortion initiatives have passed in several states, but in a few states they have failed. Voters make up their own minds.

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    11. but because there is a lot of soft pro-life support that gets turned

      honest and refined data is clear: the vast majority (over 80%) do not approve of abortion on demand (for any reason or no reason) up to the moment of delivery, while (in most places) a majority approves some abortion for some cases and early in pregnancy. A majority support abortion early on for cases of rape. So there's a lot of room for states to narrow down what its people will support and what they won't.

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    12. And the referendums on abortion typically are for abortion on demand and THAT is what the fear mongering gets soft prolifers and fence sitters to vote for.

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  5. So, after talking about the importance of ending "unworthy working conditions" and "overcom[ing] the global inequalities between opulence and destitution," Leo XIV instructs nations to "invest" (an economic term!) in families, and then goes on to talk about immigrants and the unemployed. Yet from all this Dr. Feser somehow concludes that the Pope is emphasizing morality over economics in addessing social problems. Clearly the Papal Honeymoon is still is full swing; I wonder how things will look a year from now when Leo has enough of a track record that he's no longer a blank slate into which every Catholic pundit can project their own views.

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    1. Leo XIV instructs nations to "invest" (an economic term!) in families, and then goes on to talk about immigrants and the unemployed. Yet from all this Dr. Feser somehow concludes that the Pope is emphasizing morality over economics in addessing social problems.

      Properly understood, economics IS a moral affair; you should promote a moral form of economics, just as promoting a moral form of family life, and a moral form of medicine, a moral form of sports, a moral form of political organization, etc. If the pope were to discuss economics but NOT discuss it with a moral framework would be an odd and unChristian way to address the problems. But right morals is just careful thinking about how to rightly love. Why would a pope not emphasize morals when discussing economics, immigration, and unemployment?

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    2. Interesting exchange. Divorce is a heavy topic and both of you are framing the topic in a compelling way. It seems to me the stage before the United States would be in a position to even consider changing laws concerning no-fault divorce would be for cultural figures of all stripes (athletics, politics, entertainment, academia, journalism) to make compelling arguments for the sacramental nature of marriage. In other words, how about the art of persuasion being deployed.

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    3. David, I absolutely agree that persuasion should be used, both that of direct argument and that of indirect persuasion with the arts. But it is also true that "the law is a teacher", law helps people form their moral compass by "explaining" how you should concern yourself with the welfare of others, at least in certain ways. There is no reason, in principle, for not using all the tools at hand.

      And looking at it the other way: when the states DID have laws defending marriage and outlawing extramarital sex, by and large those laws were not taken down by referendum vote of the people, on a straight-up question whether they wanted the state to prohibit these ways. Mostly, they were taken down by judicial fiat, and by small increments with legislators acting more on their own preferences than on that of their constituents. Sure, it is NOW the case that most people, having gotten used to the state not taking a role in enforcing sexual morals, don't expressly vote for the state to take up that role again, but they mostly didn't expressly vote the other way either 60 years ago. It is much harder to put the genie back in the bottle than let it out. I don't pretend to have a sure-fire solution, but I do know that pretending that "the state" isn't for "enforcing morals" is an empty slogan, as that's just what law does. Wanting good morals in terms of working conditions of the poor, and in terms of income inequality, goes hand in hand with good morals of family structure and a coherent understanding of sexual activity in society.

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    4. I agree with your points.

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  6. So what is the truth about what's happening in Gaza? What should the Christian moral response be?

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    1. I think one thing we can do is not simplify a complex world into single issue crusades. Many attempts at peace for Gaza and the West Bank have failed, and the reasons for those failures are not all on the Israel side. If the moderates in Israel could find a strong leader on the Palestinian side, one who genuinely wanted a successful two state solution, and stood firm against the extremists on his side, that would be the greatest hope for peace in Israel.

      But what about Ukraine? What about Sudan? What about the Christian persecution in Pakistan, in Egypt etc? What about the Islamist massacres of entirely innocent Christians in Nigeria, in Congo etc etc?

      What we probably shouldn’t do is follow the secular worlds media in what lives are important, and reduce one of the most complex and difficult issues (Israel/Palestine) into a simplistic good guys versus bad guys, where if the bad guys just stopped being bad everything would be fine. In fact that only applies to many of the other conflicts that are not the ones people get emotional about. It’s only the ones on TV every night that people seem to get passionate about.

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    2. @Simon

      The failures may not all be on the Israel side, but it's nonetheless true that Netanyahu's regime actively nurtures the conflict (to the point of literally funding Hamas) because it rejects the two-state solution and wants to drive Palestinians out completely in the long term—not to mention the obvious benefit of a perpetual crisis for keeping Netanyahu's embattled and corrupt administration in power. Hamas and ultra-Zionism are allies and collaborators in perpetuating the Gaza War. Catholics have basically no influence over Hamas, but many countries with Catholic majorities or significant minorities have political and economic muscle they could flex with Israel. Ergo, it makes sense for the Pope to focus influencing Israel's behavior rather than Hamas.

      Not that I expect him to take a hard line. The Vatican is understandably wary given the Church's long history of antisemitism.

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    3. @The Great Thurible of Darkness

      I don’t disagree with anything there. The challenge is that there is a lot of noise from the extremes on both sides, and even more from people who actively support one side without knowing much of the history. And yes, you’re probably right about Netanyahu, but you could argue that the more people there are chanting “from the river to the sea” on the streets of New York, Paris and London, the more support he gets within Israel, and the more he is encouraged to take the hard line. Perhaps the same goes for western Church leaders from their safe leafy suburbs. It seems very unlikely a Yitzhak Rabin will get voted in under such circumstances no matter how many in Israel genuinely want a peace.

      There was a real chance with Rabin and Arafat, but there were all kinds of reasons why a sustainable plan was never agreed. The only way I can imagine a peace is if both ‘sides’ have strong leaders, realistic expectations, and a narrative focussed on forgiveness. These are often the three missing ingredients in one way or another. It was only when these came together in South Africa that there was a realistic path forwards. Of course South Africa is not a great example as it has since descended into a chaos that the world now ignores, but if anyone wants a peace in Israel that gives Palestinians some hope, security and autonomy, it’s difficult to see how the usual binary debates and arguments are going to do anything other than the opposite.

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    4. what's happening in Gaza? What should the Christian moral response be?

      The Pope just today spoke about the harm to the civilians there, suffering grave harm from lack of necessities, apparently the term "starvation" is in play.

      I don't know lots about the best ways other nations can step in, but I have a new proposal for Christian just war theory in situations like this: A blockade is an obviously legitimate war strategy because it denies enemy armies resupply for their needs. Yet it is impossible to block the enemy from using food and medicine imports for its army, so "humanitarian" aid is intrinsically problematic. It has been virtually impossible for a blockade (as the primary mechanism) to force a nation to surrender, as the ruling party so often is willing to let the citizenry starve before caving in, and will almost always make sure the army is well fed first. But THEY SHOULD NOT be willing to do so, a just Christian ruler should (normally) surrender to the superior force of a blockade if he cannot break it, before the people starve. A militarily proven blockade that cannot be broken, with no other possible avenue of overcoming the enemy on other military fronts, should then constitute definitive, morally certain grounds for surrender: when you are in that situation, you have no more legitimate options. Therefore, because a ruling party is manifestly unjust if it refuses to surrender in the face of superior force that it cannot break even though its people are starving, that represents per se just reason for the international community to step in and forcibly enter the fray by suppressing that unjust ruling party, and forcing the nation losing to the blockade to surrender. In effect: regardless of who more had the right or wrong of the initial cause of war, Hamas definitively is in the wrong for prolonging the war beyond just limits, and it must be suppressed. Whoever takes over the cause for the Palestinians, the world at large should block that being Hamas.

      Hamas and ultra-Zionism are allies and collaborators

      I very much doubt that they are consciously and explicitly getting together to work out strategies in sync. The fact that some limited portions of their interim means and methods have similar or parallel features doesn't mean they are collaborating.

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    5. Hi Tony

      “ A militarily proven blockade that cannot be broken, with no other possible avenue of overcoming the enemy on other military fronts, should then constitute definitive, morally certain grounds for surrender: when you are in that situation, you have no more legitimate options.”

      Yes but surely it’s possible to argue against that if, say, the blockade was being done by the Romans, who were well known to slaughter everyone (even the dogs) once a city fell (except where they chose some to take away as slaves). In such a case there could be a good case for holding off in case stuff happened to the attacking force.

      Nonetheless, Hamas fails on other just war tests anyway. Even if your attack does not have a reasonable chance of defeating your opposition, then it fails by just war theory. Hamas are not a good organisation, they encourage hatred even in children, in a way that is categorically different from the likes of the ANC or the IRA. Their leaders in Gaza have been killed and so you would hope that there is a chance of a leader with more realistic attitude towards compromise, but of course the Hamas leadership are all living in luxury hotels abroad, personally enjoying their huge fortunes taken from money donated towards their cause. It’s very difficult to see them as partners in a peace, but of course you have to work with what you have. The PIJ, the PFLP, the Salafist Jihadists etc don’t seem any better, and Hamas have already murdered the Fatah leadership in Gaza. Would the people of Gaza accept a Fatah negotiated settlement on their behalf? I doubt the ones with the guns would.

      So yes you’re right that in one sense Hamas should not represent the people of Gaza simply because they fail all moral tests. However unending war cannot be moral either. So we’re left with a very difficult situation. Hamas are certainly not collaborating with the ultra Zionists, but they are playing into their hands. Anyone who supports Hamas from outside (implicitly or explicitly) is not doing the people of Gaza any favours. Equally, you can’t but not feel compassion for the situation the Palestinians are in, especially those that don’t support Hamas or the Jihadist groups.

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    6. Yes but surely it’s possible to argue against that if, say, the blockade was being done by the Romans, who were well known to slaughter everyone (even the dogs) once a city fell

      Quite right, and that's why I put in a slight caveat, "should (normally) surrender": In the rare cases when your entire population will be slaughtered outright (or all but children ages 6 to 10, who will be enslaved), surrender can't do any worse to you than starving. But such cases are rare, certainly as to modern times.

      Even if your attack does not have a reasonable chance of defeating your opposition, then it fails by just war theory.

      This is true. However, my point was to go beyond identifying just cause (or it's lack), whereby the community of nations can rightly say "Country X is engaged in unjust warfare." I was trying to present a further point, along the lines of "it is now right for the community of nations to interfere and put down this war by force", perhaps by taking out the leadership itself, or other means. My objective was to give the world an interpretation of just war theory that deals with the problem of starvation from a successful blockade. I don't think that blockades can be ruled out of order in principle, and yet if successful the people will suffer greatly. My idea is to create a limit to the suffering, not by penalizing the successful blockader (who, I think, is just carrying out successful war in the blockade), but by penalizing the other power, who DOES have the ability to end the blockade by surrender. And it must be the community of nations that imposes the penalty, not simply the other belligerent.

      It is all fine for a world leader (like the pope, but others have spoken out also) to bemoan the suffering of the Palestinians doing without food and medicine. But simply saying "this suffering should stop" doesn't present a pathway forward that does anything toward ending that suffering. The other belligerent (in this case, Israel), is obviously already trying to bring the war to an end by prosecuting the war effectively, so we can't reasonably expect that belligerent to DO MORE to bring about a situation where the people's suffering is ended than the war they are engaged in. (I assume that an argument like "you are winning too well, the other side is really suffering" is rightly laughed out of court.) So the solution (it seems to me) is for the world to impose the penalty on the one power who is clearly at fault for continuing the suffering of its own people unjustly by not surrendering when it has no prospect of success. So, the suffering that the pope and others are bemoaning represents just cause (amounting to positive obligation) for the world to directly interfere, with force, by suppressing that unjust power. Either that, or just shut up and let the winning power actually finish the job already.

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    7. “ So, the suffering that the pope and others are bemoaning represents just cause (amounting to positive obligation) for the world to directly interfere, with force, by suppressing that unjust power. Either that, or just shut up and let the winning power actually finish the job already.”

      I don’t see anything explicitly wrong with your argument … except in its translation to the real world. There are Palestinians who do not support Hamas, but there are presumably very few who would be happy about international troops coming in to suppress them further than Israel is already doing. Not only Hamas but the other militarised groups remaining in Gaza, also hiding amongst the civilians, would see that force as invaders, “occupiers”, and would presumably attack them too.

      More than this, the main narrative in left leaning circles in most of the world (and recently adopted by some US right wing groups) since the 1960s is that of Zionists using terrorism and then the force of the Israeli state to subjugate and suppress the native inhabitants of a land that had always belonged to Palestinians. I can’t imagine any countries contributing troops to go into Gaza based on your argument. Even apart from the general narrative, muslim states and european states would be too afraid of the internal civil unrest that would surely result from such action.

      There seems to be a moral cut off point of about 300 years in these modern moral narratives. If a ‘people’ took a land by force before that, then it’s rightfully theirs. If they took it after that, then it’s colonialism and imperialism. Under this narrative there are no other relevant moral questions. Whether or not the ‘native’ people could create a viable, just and economically sound state is irrelevant. The people who have lived there for 100 years have no right to the land, even if they have had some people living there for 3000 years. Whether or not the “native” people took the land forcefully themselves is irrelevant. All that matters is whether or not there are people in the land that can be seen as European and arrived there in the last ~300 years, in which case they are the ‘bad guys’.

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    8. Simon, I agree that in the current circumstances, it might be difficult to get international agreement that the world should interfere by suppressing Hamas and imposing a "you lost the war" result on the Palestinian quasi-state. But if so, then those internationalist leaders who are bemoaning the plight of the Palestinian "civilians" (who cannot be distinguished from insurgents or belligerents) should ADMIT that nothing can be done, and just shut up already. I guess my point is that from the standpoint of (mostly) modern international law and just war theory, then either countries are basically neutral, and then they MUST apply the assumption that both sides plausibly thought that they had just cause to enter into the war, and then those who are neutral just let it run out its natural course until one side wins or until one side engages in unmistakably unjust methods of warfare (i.e. ius in bello), which INCLUDES not surrendering when you can's sustain the civilian population and have no prospect of success. Or, they can side with one belligerent and declare that they think the opposing belligerent entered into the war unjustly (failure at the ius ad bellum stage), and help defeat the unjust belligerent. What they cannot (reasonably) do is to fail to take sides, and yet declare "oh, the suffering, something must be done! But...not by me". The belligerents are already "doing something" to end some suffering that they thought warranted war, so if something else must be done, it's got to be by somebody else.

      More than this, the main narrative in left leaning circles in most of the world (and recently adopted by some US right wing groups) since the 1960s is that of Zionists using terrorism and then the force of the Israeli state to subjugate and suppress the native inhabitants of a land that had always belonged to Palestinians.

      Yeah, I get that most of the left-leaning world has this narrative, but (a) I don't buy it, and (b) it still remains that if they aren't willing to use force to end unjust aggression, they are contributing to the long-term problem, not solving it. If they honestly thought that Israel entered the war unjustly, they could support Gaza militarily, but they decline to do that either (most everyone but Iran knows it's stupid to put weapons into the hands of terrorists). They are taking the cowardly way out.

      There seems to be a moral cut off point of about 300 years in these modern moral narratives.

      Yeah, this whole issue is one that has never been well-developed by natural law theory (so far as I know), and it shows. There's nothing that looks the least bit like consensus on when "a people" (even the phrase tends to be a bit amorphous) can legitimately continue to claim a separate right and when they can't. And while there is a bit of validity to your 300 years as a matter of historical data, you can find all sorts of outlier cases that defy that (e.g. the gypsies have been in England for over 300 years and there's no sign of that feud being over; Ukraine "belonged" to Russia in the 1700s). And there were lots of re-divisions in Europe in the 19th and 20th century that should not be disturbed now. Personally, I think that a period that extends longer than back to my grandfather's grandfather stretches reasonable grounds to the breaking point, and even that might be a generation too generous.

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    9. “ What they cannot (reasonably) do is to fail to take sides, and yet declare "oh, the suffering, something must be done! But...not by me". The belligerents are already "doing something" to end some suffering that they thought warranted war, so if something else must be done, it's got to be by somebody else.”

      There is a natural tension between the classical moral perspective (essentially that ‘might makes right’), and the Christian/post-Christian perspective (‘just war’ etc). What’s very rarely commented on is that Christians are persecuted all over the world at present, with very little comment in our media. A whole village in Nigeria or the Congo can be massacred by Islamist Fulani groups while at Church on Easter or Christmas, not a word of it on any TV news channels or mainstream newspapers. Christians can be beaten to death in Pakistan for the most innocuous aspects of their faith. Egyptian Copts can be treated like third class citizens day after day. Even Christians in other countries often seem uninterested.

      When it’s different types of Muslims killing each other, such as in Syria or Libya, there is some reporting of it, but there is very little emotion on social media or on the streets. But when it’s Muslims who are seen as been unfairly treated by a non-Muslim group, then suddenly it’s the Christian moral yardstick that is used (rather than ‘might is right’), but there is an extreme emotivism. Yes some of this is from the Global Ummah, where fellow Muslims in other countries are seen by many as being closer in ‘national’ identity than the country they live in. But the emotional response from so many non muslims is also an order of magnitude different to anything you get for any other type of conflict or suffering, as is the coverage in the media. There is something going on there that I can’t really understand. Maybe it’s a strange hang over of that old orientalism, the ‘Arabian nights’ colonialist love of exotic caricatures of the Middle East. Maybe it’s spiritual in some way, or maybe it’s just a narrative that many resonate with for some reason.

      Whatever it is, I do think it’s relevant to your point. The civilians in Gaza who may have once voted for Hamas but are now suffering are seen very differently to the civilians in Dresden during WW2, or the Afghan civilians caught up in Russia’s invasion or the West’s failed attempt to defeat the Taliban. Yes, maybe the countries who think that Hamas really are the ones fighting a just war should intervene, but I think most like to just gently criticise Israel for it’s ‘inhumane’ treatment of the Palestinians, whilst never openly admitting that they may do the same if they had missiles regularly being fired at their own civilians, or their young hacked up while at a dance, or their babies and elderly being taken hostage. When you have the ingredients of a special emotive narrative, supported by the evidence of some uncompromising radical Zionist settlers, and no easy answers, most countries tend towards words against Israel (who are used to words against them, and are unlikely to respond with anything other than words back), but do all they can to avoid actually touching the lightning rod of getting involved. In fact most of the surrounding Muslim states - who attacked Israel multiple times to try to destroy it - are no longer interested in getting involved. Neither with attacking Israel not giving refuge to the Palestinians. Everyone (including me it seems) has many words, but no solutions, and certainly no will to get involved.

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    10. But the emotional response from so many non muslims is also an order of magnitude different to anything you get for any other type of conflict or suffering, as is the coverage in the media. There is something going on there that I can’t really understand.

      It's irrational, and I believe it is the outworkings of demons in pursuit of their agenda. They push people to do things that aren't in their own interests, even viewed under their own weird lenses of bad philosophy or theology.

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  7. "Importantly, while he mentions working conditions, poverty, and the like, his emphasis is on something else."

    While the decline of the family is bigger than economics, it did not occur in a vacuum. For instance, its well known that out of wedlock births is a major problem among working class African Americans. But black Americans tend to be more religious and socially conservative than many other groups. The collapse of the family among that population is better attributed to things like the lack of well paying jobs, concentrated poverty, and mass incarceration, rather than bohemian ideologies. I think its pretty clear that Pope Leo would agree that the material/economic dimension of these problems can't be ignored.

    Feser also states that conservative political parties "have now essentially adopted the libertarian position that even if one laments the sexual revolution, government has no place in trying to roll it back." Yet Pope Francis was already on record as taking a more libertarian approach to these matters as far as the civil law was concerned. He supported same-sex civil partnerships, he opposed anti-sodomy laws, and (at least as far as I am aware) supported anti-discrimination laws for homosexuals. Presumably Pope Leo has the same opinions. At a minimum, it is extremely unlikely that he will endorse anti-sodomy laws or other heavy-handed means to "roll back" the sexual revolution. Yet Feser seems to read his own opinions into the Pope's mouth.


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    1. "While the decline of the family is bigger than economics, it did not occur in a vacuum." - true enough.

      "The collapse of the family among that population is better attributed to things like the lack of well paying jobs, concentrated poverty, and mass incarceration, rather than bohemian ideologies." - but it is pretty unlikely that it is those things that are the main causes of "out of wedlock births".

      First, to a large extent they are actually caused by "out of wedlock births".

      Second, do you imagine that poverty was less when Victoria was queen? And yet it seems "out of wedlock births" were less common then.

      I'd say that, to a large extent, this problem is caused by Welfare State (and yes, I get an impression that you want to push more of it as a solution).

      For without Welfare State, "out of wedlock births" result in hardship shared by unwed mothers and their neighbours and relatives. Thus pretty much everyone has an incentive to be against them. And the potential fathers can see that running away will cause lots of hardship (thus it is harder to pretend that this is fine).

      But with Welfare State the hardship is spread so widely that one's own actions have very little influence on the hardship one experiences.

      There are other ways in which miscellaneous economic measures might make a difference. For example, if Disney uses revenue derived from copyrights for propaganda of anti-family ideologies, maybe abolition of copyrights might stop that.

      Thus it might be that some changes in economic policy should precede changes in non-economic policy. But not the changes you seem to be for.

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    2. While the decline of the family is bigger than economics, it did not occur in a vacuum. For instance, its well known that out of wedlock births is a major problem among working class African Americans. But black Americans tend to be more religious and socially conservative than many other groups.

      And the world is bigger than the US, and the problems in the world range wider than those of the blacks in America. The pope was addressing more general issues. And the black Americans who are in actual practice more religious and socially conservative are largely not the same black population in which fatherless families predominate.

      The collapse of the family among that population is better attributed to things like the lack of well paying jobs, concentrated poverty, and mass incarceration, rather than bohemian ideologies.

      These do a poor job of explaining the family deterioration, in the face of the historical increase in US black prosperity from 1930 to 1980 (along with slow but regular decrease in the income gap with whites during this period). The "mass incarcertation" problem must be attributed also to some other factors, because drug possession and sale - the most common cause of incarceration - was just as illegal in the 1940s and 1950s, so it doesn't help much to explain the increase in family breakdown.

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    3. I was born, raised and lived throughout the Deep South back when segregation was legal. There were many successful black-owned businesses then and black families were more intact that they are now. I think there are a number of reasons for that, self-preservation being the main one.

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  8. One more Pope. One more delivery of platitudes and latitudes. It will not change reality. And never has. But, I am not popeful. And never was.

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  9. Paul,

    Never has? You need to learn a bit more history. Good Popes have had significant influence on geopolitics and, more importantly, conversion (some bad popes have also regretfully had a negative influence on both). As a prominent and easy example, read about Pius V's role in the battle of Lepanto in light of the threat of Islamic conquest at that time and the effect of Lepanto on future Islamic maritime efforts.

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  10. [off-topic]

    His text The Magisterium (Problems of Hyperpapalism) was recently translated into Portuguese. I would like to make an observation: the way in which Francis exercised his pontificate has to do with an opinion that was current in the 1950s in circles of the new theology, as stated by Fr. Giuseppe Filograssi, S.J., in the article The Divine Apostolic Tradition and its Relationship with the Church:

    "Altro giudizio si deve portare di quell'opinione, che identifica la tradizione col magistero della Chiesa, ma soltanto con l'attuale e, per giunta, indipendentemente dalla trasmissione della rivelazione nelle età trascorse.

    I documenti del passato non gioverebbero a darci la dimostrazione positiva che la verità oggi annunziata dalla Chiesa risponde a quella che già prima si era costantemente predicata. I documenti attesterebbero soltanto i vari stadi per cui quella verità è passata, nel processo evolutivo di età in età. Questo modo di vedere si allontana dalla dottrina cattolica, la quale riconosce una linea continua di movimento in progresso dagli apostoli sino a noi, e i documenti del passato giudica connessi con la presente fede della Chiesa, come sue manifestazioni, più o meno chiare, più o meno espresse. Tale è il metodo seguito nella Munificentissimus Deus : si parte dall'odierna credenza universale nell'assunzione di Maria, per scoprirne poi e individuarne gli indizi, i vestigi, le testimonianze esplicite attraverso i secoli". https://pascendidominicigregis.blogspot.com/2024/05/la-civilta-cattolica-la-tradizione.html

    Identifying tradition with the current magisterium of the Church is the whole problem of Francis’ pontificate, and also to a certain extent of the conciliar era. From the moment that the Church needs to be updated, all of its previous magisterium becomes outdated, and its current validity is in doubt. This opinion about the magisterium is reminiscent of that about theology expressed in the article Where is the new theology headed? by Father Garrigou Lagrange, where we can read the quote from Father Henry Boulliard:

    “When the spirit evolves, an immutable truth is maintained only thanks to a simultaneous and correlative evolution of all notions, maintaining the same relationship between them. A theology that was not current would be a false theology.”

    Now, a magisterium that adopts the new theology would also adopt this principle, and a magisterium that was not current would also be false. This seems to be the case of the magisterium since the Council.

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  11. The Church, and perhaps only the Church, is in a position to fully consider the ramifications of the sexual revolution, specifically how easy it is to separate procreation from pleasure. JPII certainly tried, but you don't hear about his efforts anymore in this regard. Perhaps the good professor will take up the challenge?

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    1. The good professor is working on book on sexual morality as we speak.

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  12. "Distinct peoples have a right to preserve what defines them as a people, culturally, linguistically, and economically."

    This is true in the sense that human beings, as rational and social animals, enjoy the natural and God-given right (and the propensity) to gravitate toward certain patterns of expressing their humanity, and that this should not be forcibly impeded unless they are choosing habits of living which are gravely immoral and dangerous to the social fabric. It does not follow from this that people have a right to inflict violence on others simply because their own morally neutral cultural preferences are different from their own -- which is the only time we *ever* hear of a supposed "right" to "to preserve what defines people as a people." People do not, in fact, enjoy a right to forcibly prevent others from speaking a foreign language or peaceably introducing salutary or morally neutral changes into their communities. "Peoples" are not static. It belongs to our human nature that we are mutable and that we change, among other ways by incorporating new people with new ideas and new ways of doing things. A family, by analogy, certainly has a "right," if its members so choose, to gather for dinner every Sunday for a special meal, but no adult member of that family has the right to force other adult members of sound mind to participate in that family custom. Traditions change. And that's okay. No people has a "right" to "preserve itself as a people," just the way it is, until the eschaton.

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    1. Traditions change. And that's okay.

      Very often it is OK. However, on occasion it happens through some persons immorally defying the tradition, and encouraging others to defy it, and undermining its prevalence as common behavior. When the tradition is per se part of the moral structure, those who defied that custom to begin with were certainly being immoral. But when the tradition is per se neutral, but intimately connected to a number of moral customs such that undermining it ALSO attacks those morals, attacking the "neutral" custom can also attack morals. (For example, skirt length on women is not, by necessity, always and everywhere a certain length in order to be modest. But skirt length certainly can be connected to modesty. In a culture in which all women wear skirts to X point down their leg, modesty becomes connected to that custom, and defying that customary length in that culture by wearing significantly shorter skirts is immodest and undermines chastity (and other virtues).)

      More generally: customs constitute a vast interlocking web of support for moral beliefs and practices. Each individual custom may have only a tiny connection to morals, but that's not NO connection. In times and places, there might be goods to an individual or subclass of society, for whom not following a small and unimportant custom provides more good to the individuals than the small damage to the interlocking web of custom (by not following the custom) causes harm to the society. In such situations, not following the custom may be a justifiably prudent act. And in this way, such customs can undergo modification or even eradication, without injustice to the society. But the presumption in general must be that customs are good and are connected to the common good and social order; further, because of the vast interconnectedness, it is relatively hard to be justifiably confident you can rightly assess how much (and what kinds) of harm to the social fabric will come from not complying with many customs. So, broadly speaking, people should be ready to comply and hesitant to not comply with customs, and often not doing so is in fact unjust.

      That said, there are kinds of changes that are more obviously in the nature of organic change than defiance of custom, and these generally are not to be considered "dangerous" to the social fabric, even if they do introduce changes not anticipated. As a simple example, a family bringing a new baby into the world is a change (from the prior condition), but this is precisely the kind of organic growth of the family (and the society) that is envisioned in God's blessing and directive to Adam and Eve: "be fruitful and multiply". Likewise, a business discovering a new way of offering a service that reaches more customers at a cheaper price, and a factory owner discovering a way to shorten production by 3 steps, making the same product cheaper, may disrupt their competitors, but this too is like organic growth out of the prior social framework. These changes, when multiplied by 10,000 actors over 30 years, may bring about conditions that force many former customs to be lost (buggy whips, anyone?), but this kind of change cannot be objected to on that ground alone.

      So, there's a need for balance about these.

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  15. And, yawn, it really doesn't matter what any of us say here.

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  16. The will of the people is entrusted to few. And , yes, it does not matter what we say...

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