Tuesday, June 27, 2023

Postliberalism, economics, and culture

I commend to you economist Philip Pilkington’s fine essay “Towards a Postliberal Political Economy,” at The American Postliberal.  It is in part a response to my recent Postliberal Order article “In Defense of Culture War.”  It seems to me that we are essentially in agreement, and that for the most part the essays complement rather than contradict one another.  But there might be some differences over details, or at least of emphasis.  Let’s take a look.

Liberalism and postliberalism

First, let me address a terminological matter that will not throw off readers who have been closely following the recent debate over postliberalism, but does sometimes confuse those who are not familiar with it.  Pilkington frequently refers to the “liberal conservative” approach to cultural and economic issues.  American readers who use the word “liberal” to connote views of the kind associated with the Democratic Party are liable to misunderstand him.  They may find the phrase oxymoronic, or perhaps will suppose that Pilkington must be referring to socially liberal Republicans or the like.  But “liberal conservative” is not intended to refer to such people (or not them alone, anyway), and the phrase is perfectly sensible when properly understood.

In political philosophy, the word “liberal” has a broader sense than it has in contemporary American politics.  It refers to a broad tradition that goes back to thinkers like John Locke, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill, and that has among its fundamental themes individualism, the thesis that political authority is the product of a social contract, and the principle that the state ought to be neutral between competing religious doctrines.  Secondary themes would be an emphasis on the market economy and limited government, though these are not per se liberal.  (To be sure, doctrinaire or ideological versions of market economics and limited government are essentially liberal, but my point is that a non-liberal could favor non-doctrinaire or non-ideological policies of a free market or limited government sort.)  In the twentieth century, thinkers like John Rawls took liberalism in a more egalitarian direction, and thinkers like Robert Nozick took it in a more radically libertarian direction.  In the American context, the word “liberalism” has come to be associated with egalitarian liberalism in particular.  But in reality, that kind of liberalism is just one species within a wider genus.

Now, many modern conservatives are liberals in the broader sense in question.  They are not egalitarian liberals and they are not libertarian liberals, but they are still liberals in the sense that they regard the work of thinkers like Locke and Smith as foundational to a sound political philosophy, and more or less take for granted liberalism’s commitment to individualism, the idea of political authority as deriving from contract, and state neutrality on matters of religion.  This is especially true of conservatives influenced by the “fusionism” of Frank Meyer, which came to be associated with William F. Buckley’s National Review.  Fusionism is essentially the idea that a commitment to individual liberty as understood in the Lockean tradition can and ought to be “fused” with a commitment to traditional morality as enshrined in the Judeo-Christian tradition. 

“Liberal conservatives” in this sense are, accordingly, as prone as libertarians are to argue for market-based approaches to social problems, and to see government action as itself part of the problem rather than a possible solution.  Accordingly, they deploy the rhetoric of “freedom” as often as, or even more often than, they appeal to tradition, family, or religion.  That they would put Edmund Burke alongside Locke and Smith in their pantheon of early modern thinkers, and prefer F. A. Hayek to Nozick or Ayn Rand among contemporary free-marketers, is what makes their liberalism “conservative.” But, again, it is still a kind of liberalism in the broad sense.

Now, the postliberal Right is defined by its rejection of liberalism in this broad sense no less than in the narrow sense, and thus by its rejection of fusionism and any other attempt to marry conservatism to the liberalism of Locke, Smith, and Co.  For postliberals, the paradigmatic political philosophers are thinkers like Plato, Aristotle, Augustine and Aquinas.  For theoretical articulation and defense of the foundations of political morality, they would look to Thomistic natural law theory (or something in that ballpark) rather than Lockean natural rights theory.  They take the family rather than the individual to be the basic unit of society, and regard the state as a natural institution rather than the product of a social contract.  In addition, Catholic postliberals tend toward the “integralist” position that it is preferable at least in theory for the state to favor the Church rather than to remain neutral on matters of religion.  (Whether it is better in practice, and exactly what it would look like for the state to favor the Church, are complicated matters that I have addressed elsewhere.)

Naturally, the views of individual thinkers of either a liberal conservative sort or a postliberal sort are bound to be more complicated than this summary indicates.  A liberal conservative might count Aristotle and Aquinas as influences too, and a postliberal might acknowledge that there are insights to be drawn from a Burke or a Hayek.  What I am describing here are the general tendencies and basic commitments that differentiate the two points of view.

I wouldn’t want to put words in Pilkington’s mouth, and perhaps he would disagree with or qualify some of what I’ve said so far.  But that is how I understand liberal conservatism and postliberalism, and I am supposing that that is more or less how he understands them too.

From culture to economics and back again

In my own essay, I discussed the famous Marxist distinction between the economic “base” of society and the political, legal, and cultural “superstructure” constructed on that base.  The distinction provides the organizing theme of Pilkington’s article, and he appeals to it in order to characterize the different approaches to economics and culture represented by Marxism, liberal conservatism, and postliberalism.

The Marxist position, of course, is that the economic base determines everything else.  Law, politics, and culture merely function to keep in place the prevailing economic order and its ruling class, and have no other significance.  By contrast, liberal conservatives, says Pilkington, take the economic and cultural spheres to be autonomous.  They take the market economy to be a neutral wealth-generating mechanism that can and should be left to itself or at most tinkered with slightly so as to improve its output.  They take the real action to be at the level of culture, and they think that advancing their goals in that sphere is simply a matter of convincing people to adopt them by making good arguments (as opposed, say, to changing basic economic structures).

Postliberalism, says Pilkington, rejects both of these positions.  Like Marxism and unlike liberal conservatism, it holds that economics influences culture.  But, unlike Marxism, it holds that culture also influences economics.  Hence, like liberal conservatism and unlike Marxism, it rejects economic reductionism and takes culture and argumentation to enjoy some independence of economic factors.  But it also rejects the liberal conservative view of the economy as a neutral mechanism that should largely be left alone.  Securing cultural goals requires economic change, and not just making good arguments.  In short, economics and culture significantly affect one another, so that policy cannot focus just on one to the exclusion of the other.

So far I warmly agree with Pilkington, though there is a terminological difference between us, albeit one which is – probably – merely terminological rather than substantive.  Throughout his essay, Pilkington retains the Marxist jargon of economic “base” and cultural “superstructure.”  Again, he rejects Marxism’s claims about their relationship, and emphasizes their mutual influence.  But to keep referring to economics as the “base” leaves the impression that it is still somehow more fundamental.  I imagine that Pilkington does not intend this, and that he retains the terminology merely for ease of exposition.  But I would prefer to speak of economic and cultural “spheres” (or some such term) rather than maintain the loaded terminology of “base” and “superstructure.”

On the other hand, some of what Pilkington says might at least give some the impression that he does indeed take economics to be fundamental.  In particular, he discusses several examples of phenomena that might at first glance appear to have purely cultural significance, but where, he argues, closer inspection will reveal underlying economic factors.  To be sure, his point may be merely that economics and culture interpenetrate in these cases, without either being the more fundamental.  And I suspect that that is indeed his view.  But it seems to me that even in the cases he discusses, the cultural factors are indeed the more fundamental ones, even if he is right to note that there are crucial economic factors as well.

Hence, consider what Pilkington has to say about modern changes in family structure.  Liberal conservatives, he says, attribute this mainly to moral decline, and in part to the welfare state.  But he notes that other crucial factors are the dramatic decline in the birth rate and the entry of women into the modern workforce.  Pilkington emphasizes that while women worked in earlier ages (for example, in agriculture) what is distinctive about modern women’s workplace is that it has separated work from home and family life.  Now, these changes are economic in nature.  Hence, it seems, we have a clear case where economics has driven cultural change.

That is fair enough as far as it goes.  But I’d point out that the story doesn’t end there.  For why have birth rates declined, and why have women entered the modern work force in such large numbers?  The answer, in large part, has to do with the legalization of birth control and the rise of modern feminism, with the political and legal changes that went along with it.  And those factors, in turn, were the result of cultural changes.  Notice too that, despite the tremendous influence of Western capitalism on the rest of the world, the birth rate and the economic situation of women has not changed nearly as radically in Muslim countries.  Why not?  Because of legal, political, and cultural factors.  So, as I argued in my earlier essay, we see once again that lurking behind economic factors are deeper cultural preconditions.

Something similar can be said even of the most seemingly crudely material of factors.  For example, it is often claimed that the birth control pill changed sexual mores more than all the propaganda of sexual revolutionaries could have.  And the pill is a drug that directly affects body chemistry, not people’s ideas.  But the birth control pill did not fall from the sky.  It had to be invented, produced, and marketed.  And its mere existence doesn’t force anyone to take it.  Tobacco also still exists, but the number of people using it has dramatically declined.  Nor does the fact that tobacco poses health risks entirely explain that, because alcohol and marijuana also pose risks, yet alcohol use has not greatly declined, whereas marijuana use has increased. 

The reason, of course, is that there has been vastly greater cultural pressure against tobacco use than against alcohol use, and also cultural pressure in favor of marijuana use.  And cultural pressures are also responsible for the development and use of the pill.  It was precisely because of changes in sexual attitudes that the pill was developed, marketed, and used in the first place, even if this in turn went on to accelerate the changes in sexual attitudes.  Hence even the pill is not a purely material factor, nor indeed even primarily material in nature, all things considered.

Pilkington also argues that changes in economic policy can improve the health of the family, and that improving the health of the family will in turn bring about cultural changes.  For example, “studies show that strong families tend to vote more conservative than atomised individuals.”  Hence, he suggests, “it may not be too much of an exaggeration to say, given how integrated personal and economic life are in today’s intensive consumption-production economy, the only way to engage in meaningful reforms is to tackle them first at an economic level.”

But here too the idea that economic policy is more basic than culture, or even equally basic, collapses on closer inspection.  For suppose we were to try to follow Pilkington’s advice and focus for a time just on the economic question of what sorts of policies would contribute to strengthening the family.  What counts as “family”?  And what counts as a “strong” family?  Woke ideologues will have answers to those questions, and they will be very different from the answers a postliberal would give.  And the difference in the answers will reflect different assumptions of a moral and philosophical nature – in short, of a cultural nature.  Yet again, lurking behind purportedly purely economic considerations are deeper cultural issues. 

Similar points can be made in response to Pilkington’s other examples.  And then there is the fact that, no matter how important some specific economic reform is, actually to achieve it will require political action, which requires changing minds.  That, in turn, will require convincing a critical mass of people of the importance of such-and-such economic factors relative to other considerations.  And that is an essentially philosophical task rather than an economic one.

Pilkington may well agree with this.  Indeed, as I have discussed elsewhere, Pilkington is well aware of the philosophical assumptions that underlie economic lines of argument.  Again, there may at the end of the day be less of a substantive difference between our views than there is a difference of emphasis, or perhaps at most of short-term strategy.  And I certainly do not deny that economics is a crucial part of a complete postliberal program.  But that is not because economics is more basic than culture, or even because it is equally basic.  It is because culture works in part through economics, and indeed because economics is itself a part of culture.

76 comments:

  1. OP
    "The reason for this is that the left has effectively no theory of morality or even taste and therefore no theory of what constitutes the good life and what constitutes the bad. In short, the failure of the postwar left has been its inability to articulate a positive view for society. Initially the postwar left coasted on the residues of Jewish and Christian morality, but in the past few decades it has collapsed into nihilism and nonsense."
    How absurd.

    The article starts with an admonition by Marx to use philosophy not merely to describe the world but to change it. The shallow blinkered nonsense of the OP has no prospect of changing the world.

    Postwar morality has gone all downhill? Really? Prewar morality included a time of violent bigotry against racial minorities, women, homosexuals, and largely anybody not a white male.

    Prewar morality included racial segregation, deep discrimination, and white supremacist domestic terrorism. Domestic violence against women was largely unreported and unpunished.

    Pre-war morality meant that if you were not a white man in America you had next to zero ability to advance in business, government, or leadership of most sorts.

    Unlike the Christian cults of guilt, bigotry, and tolerance for domestic violence where one must suffer in this life to find reward in the next life, humanistic morality values each individual human being.

    Humanistic morality seeks fairness, respect, and opportunity for all, sometimes known as human flourishing. And in this life, not some fantasy reward in an imagined next life.

    The total lack of depth or even the slightest insight into humanistic morality displayed in the OP is pathetic.

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    Replies
    1. And in this life, not some fantasy reward in an imagined next life.

      That depends on what's your goal for life. If your goal is to be upstanding, then no, you don't need belief in a future life. But if your goal is self-creation, then belief in future infinite reward and punishment is necessary.

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    2. "Humanistic values" lack depth, but I don't expect an argument for them from an ideologue like you.

      Delete
    3. WCB

      True Biblical economic systems are sell all you have and give to the poor. A rich man cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

      Acts 4
       And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
      32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

      God is a communist and commands communism. Despite much talk from many of our religious brothers ans sisters, they do not want Bible based economic systems.

      WCB

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    4. This is a such a common criticism of older theories of morality that Dr Feser ought to devote a post to it. It's that older *theories* of morality should be rejected because *practice* in the past did not accord with contemporary sensibilities. But many of these faults were in fact condemned by the older moralities. A Lockean morality, devoted to the idea all are equal under the law, would seem to condemn racial bigotry and the like; Christian morality is certainly not in accord with domestic violence. And there has always been a divergence between theory and practice.

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    5. HK,
      "But if your goal is self-creation, then belief in future infinite reward and punishment is necessary."
      Nonsense.

      I define my own meaning for life, and the sort of person I wish to grow to be and how I wish to live my life. The last thing I need is some nonsense about an infinite reward.

      Infinite punishment is a particularly nauseating aspect of Christianity. What a sick sadistic narcissist god would be to punish his creations infinitely.

      Only those who lack personal integrity require the threat of punishment in the afterlife in order to get them to behave well in this life. Such an idiotic notion, to threaten us with eternal punishment.

      It is the fact that I realize this is my only life, my only shot, that makes me value my life and the lives of others so much.

      On an infinite immortal soul this life is virtually meaningless.

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    6. "I don't expect an argument for them from an ideologue like you."
      You have no idea who I am, my views on ideologies, or the depth of humanistic values.

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    7. @StardustyPsyche:

      Since you are so keen on "humanism", can you give us, from a MATERIALIST p.o.v., a working definition of what is a "human"?

      I am asking because it's been a while since your side (philosophical materialists) can no longer offer a definition of what a "woman" (and by extension what a "man") are. Which makes me doubt that your side can understand or explain what a "human being" is.

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    8. I define my own meaning for life, and the sort of person I wish to grow to be and how I wish to live my life.

      I have no desire to engage with a dusty, starry-eyed brickhead, but I would point out to others here: the above comment is a sure-fire path to absolute nihilism: if it I, and I alone who provides the meaning of my life, then by definition nobody else in the world could possibly give a shit what I am or what I mean. And if it is my own choice that "gives meaning" to me, then since my choices can change over time, what I THOUGHT (10 minutes ago) gives me meaning might not be what I think gives me meaning now, hence whatever sense of "meaning" I come up with is, at best, some ephemeral will-o-the-wisp "meaning" that is, ultimately, meaningless. And 10 minutes after I am dead, any "meaning" I once thought I had will be meaningless, which in effect defeats using the term "meaning" in any real sense in reference to any individual: all that is left is "I want". For, the whole point of saying something "has meaning" is to assert that it has more substance and goodness to it than merely that "I want it". Reducing "meaning" to "I choose it" eradicates the point of "meaning" altogether.

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    9. @StardustyPsyche:

      "... humanistic morality values each individual human being."

      Except individual human beings that happen to be developing inside a womb, who then can be killed at will through the ritualistic practice of abortion. Among them, millions of the women, homosexuals, transexuals, blacks and other minorities that you have sworn to "protect".

      Not to mention that abortion goes against evolutionary science, which states that living creatures tend to maximize the number of their descendency, not to minimize it. But to expect logical coherence from a materialist is, indeed, to ask for a miracle.

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    10. @StardustyPsyche:

      Your constant intellectual mast**bation and self-gratification regarding your (supposedly) moral superiority is pretty obscene. It should be rated 'R' by the blog owner.

      Calm down dude, there might be minors reading the blog.

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    11. Stardust, your only contribute is to adhere to contemporary fashion, with the usual historically lazy contempt for a past you don't understand.

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    12. The superiority and consequences of your morality shine on the streets of LA, San Francisco and Portland, or in "gender care" surgery rooms.
      If you want to know what violence against women is today, read Dalrymple's "Life at the Bottom", a nice picture of the society arising from your premises.

      Delete
  2. This is the first time you posted a thumbnail from Archie comics! Thanks!

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  3. The postliberals, if they are conservatives, will not look to Aquinian natural law theory because this is excluded by Burke’s theories from having any say in society.

    If they are Aquinian, they will understand (unlike the postliberals) that the individual and his ends as the absolute towards which all societies, including families are oriented. For St. Thomas, societies have no absolute ends in themselves.

    Again, if postliberals are conservatives, they won’t regard the state as a natural institution, as any reading of Burke and de Maistre will confirm. For the founders of conservatism, society and the state exist to correct human nature defectively created by God; they are artificial by definition.

    Some postliberal “integrists” talk about religious establishment because they think civil society is a quasi-religious institution and that religion is a facet of it.

    As for us; we can only use Aristotle and Plato as interpreted by St. Thomas (for example) because, like Confucius, they are radically secularist. All of them entertain religious activities for temporal gain only, in opposition to the Thomistic worldview. As Aquinas noted in De regimine, priests were very properly subject to civil society among the pagans because their ends were purely temporal (superhumans and spooks notwithstanding). In the irrevoca-bly post-pagan world in which we live, society is properly subject to religious ends ultimately, as Aquinas said. Aris-totle, Scruton, Confucius, Burke and Plato would disagree.

    I think we should apply Thomistic social theory to political and economic issues without having to negotiate the minefield of which ideological labels most approximate it. None of them do. Suarez and Bellarmine devoted much time to dealing with social absolutism, the plague affecting all the labels being discussed. The modern state arrived in conservative form, and was opposed brilliantly by the scholasticism of the time. Why ignore this manna from heaven just because it means we have to leave our ideological tribe?

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    1. Again, if postliberals are conservatives, they won’t regard the state as a natural institution, as any reading of Burke and de Maistre will confirm. For the founders of conservatism,

      This is entirely wrong: the foundations of conservatism long precede Burke etc. Aquinas was conservative, for he elaborated and supported the root tenets of conservatism: that the individual is born into communities (layers of them); he owes obligations to them will he or nil he; and because virtues rely on habits, customs constitute a positive good of societies which oblige us to respect and sustain them, in general. Burke attempted to wrest these tenets away from natural law principles (which ground the 2 natural communities, the family and the polity), and this implies his thought distorted conservatism, rather than defining it.

      Suarez and Bellarmine devoted much time to dealing with social absolutism, the plague affecting all the labels being discussed. The modern state arrived in conservative form,

      That's downright silly: the modern state arrived as a major CHANGE, which is hardly conservative of the prior system. Further, the new absolutism of the rising monarchs of that period represented, most certainly, a revolutionary change from the prior political theories (which instantiated, albeit imperfectly, respect for limits imposed by our supernatural end which supersedes the state).

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  4. Humanism is, arguably, a decent enough dogma. But now, it seems to me, economics has driven cultural upheaval and moral decline: the more material advantages and comforts there are available to a large portion of society, the greater the lengths others will go to to have their chunk of prosperity. The net result of this reactive mentality is that morality and ethics are empty euphemism. Whether Pilkington has some, any or all of it right is not a salient issue, even if it is an academic one. I have claimed reality is contextual---based solely on interests, preferences and motives. Liberal conservatism, notwithstanding. I might add, nothing is ever as simple or complex as it seems.

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  5. WCB

    So Kevin McCarthy is back to slashing Social Security, Medicaid, et al, because "Deficits!". And more massive tax cuts for the wealthy and big corporations. Which will cause more deficits. Rinse and repeat. Bad economics, bad culture war by the GOP.

    This GOP postliberBlism economics is so wonderful. This should play well next election.

    WCB

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    1. I inform you that the current government is Democrat, and economy is terrible. Under Trump it was very good, especially for minorities.

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  6. Well, Ed, I am glad you wrote "Democratic Party," and not the pejorative "Democrat Party."

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  7. In Biblical Studies and in Theology, Postliberal theology (or narrative theology) "is a Christian theological movement that focuses on a narrative presentation of the Christian faith as regulative for the development of a coherent systematic theology. [It argues that] Christianity is an overarching story, with its own embedded culture, grammar, and practices, which can be understood only with reference to Christianity's own internal logic.... Postliberal theology arose amongst scholars who either taught or studied at Yale Divinity School, such as George Lindbeck, Hans William Frei, and alumnus Stanley Hauerwas" (from Wikipedia entry on Postliberal theology).
    Rusty Reno, editor of First Things magazine, seems to want to use the term postliberalism to refer to both the sense above and to its sense as used by the OP and The Postliberal Order.
    Wikipedia's entry "Postliberalism" refers to the work of people like John Gray and John Milbank, which seems considerably different from the understanding of Postliberal meant in the OP.
    I don't think most people that use the term "postliberal" mean what Ed Feser or Philip Pilkington mean by it.

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  8. " ... humanistic morality values each individual human being.

    Humanistic morality seeks fairness, respect, and opportunity for all, sometimes known as human flourishing."

    LOL
    Why?

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    Replies
    1. Why indeed.

      Christian motivation to practice as instructed in the beatitudes seems to be, at least in large part, an external carrot and stick. Be good and god will reward you, be bad and god will punish you.

      Christians seem to lack a moral compass of their own.

      DNW does not seen to even understand the assertion of what humanistic morality seeks, after all, without god to promise reward and threaten punishment where could such altruistic and egalitarian proclivities come from?

      Apparently not the self of Christians, if DNW is a typical example.

      Christians require a skydaddy to promise rewards and threaten punishment, apparently lacking innate altruistic and egalitarian moral drives.

      We humanists consider those who lack the empathy we have to be sociopaths. A sociopath being a person who lacks innate empathetic drives, a person who can only be deterred from destructive antisocial behavior with a system of rewards and punishments, in other words, a Christian who believes in heaven for the good and hell for the evil.

      Why indeed.

      Because we humanists are evolved creatures endowed by nature with innate empathy, intrinsic altruistic and egalitarian moral sensibilities.

      Is that so very hard for you to comprehend, DNW?

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    2. @StardustyPsyche

      Because we humanists are evolved creatures endowed by nature with innate empathy, intrinsic altruistic and egalitarian moral sensibilities.

      I don't mind you being an atheist, but I do mind you being an atheist who is ignorant of your own religion. All atheists in the postmodern era believe that humans have no innate nature. It's as fundamental to the atheist creed as the belief in the annihilation of the soul and the nonexistence of miracles.

      Delete
    3. " ... we humanists are evolved creatures endowed by nature with innate empathy, intrinsic altruistic and egalitarian moral sensibilities."

      Hahahaha Do you have any idea how funny that sounds? So, you do what you do because you are by chance [or do you believe in the evolution god] born that way? And that makes your genetically pre-programmed behavior somehow praiseworthy?

      And you pat yourself on the back because of it? LOL

      Yeah, see, now "evolution" does all the moral validation work for you which the term "god" or at least teleology, used to do for others? Isn't that neat? Hilarious.

      Of course, your own egalitarian philosophy, insofar as it is a universalist philosophy is completely, effen, incoherent: as everyone who talked more or less the same way, from even that sebaceous sack of s--t Karl Marx, to Herbert Marcuse, to John Rawls has had to confront either as an overt fact, or to try and plot their way around.

      You tacitly acknowledge that your own theory does not function as reciprocally distributive. Some men are not "evolved" and do not find themselves compelled by inheritance to think the way you do.

      Therefore your egalitarianism is not really egalitarian across the human species any more than Karl Sackofshite Marx's was when he announced the principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" ... admitting thereby, that not only were human beings neither fungible nor equal in their productive capacities, but that some will have to produce in order that others less capable or even honorable, may consume.

      I guess in your world either people really are termite like clones, or else there is some kind of super-empathy at play which results in an orgasmic sense of reward when one is taken advantage of for purposes and interests not one's own. Because ... empathy ... egalitarianism .. and altruism ... the first second and third persons of the secular trinity. And equally mysterious in how it actually works or should be considered universally beneficial to individuals. But then, that is religious faith for you. Even if it is an atheist's faith

      John Rawls "solution" to the problem of laggards of course, was an admission of the eventual necessity of eugenic policies; because you know, egalitarianism aside, not everyone really is equal. But as he said in A Theory of Justice .. it was not a point upon which he wished to dwell. Now, back to the graphs!

      And as Marcuse admitted, eventually some way of dealing with free riders in a socialist society must be confronted.

      Of course one could have a more or less substantively, not just legally, egalitarian society. It would just not be one that allowed anyone at all to participate in. You become one of us because you can military press 150 lbs, in 3 sets of 10 reps each. Except that you cannot, in Universal Admittance Land of the Evolved, so Harold over there will have to do yours for you, while you cut out paper dolls and paint rainbows on them. We value all capabilities here ...

      Now, a kind of formal equality might obtain in certain societies among, say, the fighting men; men roughly equal capacity, equal in liability to risk, equal in willingness and ability to face up to physical threats, and gaining an equally distributive reward in fact in the aftermath.

      But that would be rather different from your imputed equality and benefit scheme, as in: "Hope you enjoyed your portion of the rewards. You can go look at it in the town square. We have built a lesbian praise monument which all may equally admire."

      Quite a mystery. Perhaps if you ask politely of Lord Evolution, he/she/or it will 'splain it to you and reveal why it is praiseworthy and not just another mundane fact .. if and when it happens [or is claimed to ] to obtain.

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    4. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Because we humanists are evolved creatures endowed by nature with innate empathy, intrinsic altruistic and egalitarian moral sensibilities".

      And you "humanists" are so "good" because you freely chose so, or because evolutionary forces that escape to your control modelled you to be that way?

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    5. HK,
      "I don't mind you being an atheist, but I do mind you being an atheist who is ignorant of your own religion."
      Atheism is a religion like not stamp collecting is a hobby.

      "All atheists in the postmodern era believe that humans have no innate nature."
      You have no idea what you are talking about.

      Human beings, like other animals, have instinctive natures, they are in the brain structure which is an expression of genetic inheritance.

      "It's as fundamental to the atheist creed as the belief in the annihilation of the soul"
      Incoherent. There can be no annihilation of an imagined thing that does not exist.

      Delete
    6. "And that makes your genetically pre-programmed behavior somehow praiseworthy?"
      I never asked for your praise, why should I?

      "And you pat yourself on the back because of it? "
      You asked "why". I answered the "why".

      "admitting thereby, that not only were human beings neither fungible nor equal in their productive capacities,"
      Ok, so Marx got that bit broadly correct, you acknowledge.

      "And equally mysterious in how it actually works"
      Not so very mysterious, there are many social species.

      "or should be considered universally beneficial to individuals."
      It isn't, that would be a simplistic view not actually held by atheistic humanists generally.

      "We have built a lesbian praise monument which all may equally admire."
      Starin' at your dress 'cause it's see through
      Yeah, talkin' all the shit that you done been through
      Yeah, say that you a lesbian, girl, me too
      Ayy, girls want girls where I'm from

      "reveal why it is praiseworthy and not just another mundane fact"
      Your Lord and Savior showed you how to be a fisher of men, to sell your belongings and give to others, if a man steals one thing from you then give him even more, love others as yourself, love even your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

      What makes humanism praiseworthy?
      Jesus said so, better listen up.

      Delete
    7. " ' reveal why it is praiseworthy and not just another mundane fact'

      Your Lord and Savior showed you how to be a fisher of men, to sell your belongings and give to others, if a man steals one thing from you then give him even more, love others as yourself, love even your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

      What makes humanism praiseworthy?
      Jesus said so, better listen up"

      Oh, too bad!

      Sorry, but the sound of the buzzer indicates that our referees have ruled your response invalid on multiple grounds in addition to non sequitur. The first of the forensic logic grounds is that you are not allowed to cite as controlling, or to admonish on the basis of, an authority which you have already repeatedly stipulated as imaginary. This is not only illogical, but may also be an example of bad faith and malicious disruption.

      Furthermore, the petulant and facetious retort in the same vein now results in your loss of an additional 5 points, and jeopardizes your status as an accepted player.

      Since you obviously need brushing up, we refer you to the standard rule book by Irving Copi, 3rd through 10th editions.

      Delete
    8. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Atheism is a religion like not stamp collecting is a hobby."

      Not stamp collecting does not involve aggressive proselytizing, in opposition to atheism, which has its self-appointed pastors. I mean people like Dawkins, Krauss, Rosenberg or anonymous atheists that devote thousands of hours to write obsessive comments.

      Like you for example.

      Delete
    9. @StardustyPsyche:

      "What makes humanism praiseworthy?
      Jesus said so, better listen up."

      Jesus' teachings only had value because of His Divinity. That's where His authority stems from.

      But according to you atheists, He didn't exist or if He esixted, He was just another random conglomerate of chemicals brought about by impersonal and unthinking evolutionary forces.

      So I don't get it. Why should anyone pay attention to the teachings of someone who did not exist or, even if he existed, was as meaningless a H. sapiens as we all are? Makes exactly zero sense. And especially since you tend to denigrate people who lived then as "Bronze Age Goat Herders" and other niceties.

      I am going to re-formulate the question: what makes "humanism" praiseworthy FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY-ATHEIST p.o.v.?

      Delete
    10. WCB

      Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
      The French revolution.

      Now we see any attempt to progress in our American nation denounced as Marxism, Woke, and recently from the extreme right as "Communism!".

      Epithets thrown at progressives and moderates by the likes of Marjory Greene and DeSantis.

      Where will all of that eventually take us?

      WCB

      Delete
    11. @WCB:

      "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité
      The French revolution."

      Survival.Of.The.Fittest.
      Lady Evolution.

      That's the mandate of your deity. "Fittest" means that some people win and that some people lose in the battle of life.

      If there's something that your deity hates above anything, it is EQUALITY.

      Delete
    12. Decent,
      "Not stamp collecting does not involve aggressive proselytizing"
      Then being a Republican is a religion, being anti-woke is a religion, being an avid outspoken anything is a religion.

      Delete
    13. Decent,
      "I don't get it"
      At last we agree!!!

      "Why should anyone pay attention to the teachings of someone who did not exist"
      If you believe Jesus existed and you accept his authority you might want to pay attention to his humanistic admonitions based on his authority.

      If you don't accept his authority but you find the arguments or admonitions convincing nevertheless then you might want to pay attention.

      "I am going to re-formulate the question: what makes "humanism" praiseworthy FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY-ATHEIST p.o.v.?"
      That depends on what you value. If you value human dignity, equality, fairness, justice, human life, avoidance of human harm or human suffering then secular humanism would reasonably be praiseworthy.

      If you value greed, dominance, selfishness, and are indifferent to human harm or human suffering then you would likely dismiss secular humanism.

      Delete
    14. SP proudly proclaiming that their morality is derived from evolution is one of the most unintentionally hilarious self-owns I’ve seen.

      Delete
    15. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Then being a Republican is a religion, being anti-woke is a religion, being an avid outspoken anything is a religion."

      Atheism is a religion. It has its own creative myth (nothing created everything), its own deity (the Demiurge a.k.a. Evolution), its 1st Commandment (which has been stolen from Christianity, the well-known "love thy neighbor" that you have re-labelled as humanism), its own Inquisition ("cancel culture"), its own list of sins ("misogyny", "homophobia", "transphobia", "fatphobia", "racism", being "greedy", using fossil fuels, uttering "microagressions", etc...) It forbids the worshipping of deities other than the Evolutionary one/ forbids causing harm to Mother Nature. It has its own ritualistic practices (human sacrifice, now re-labelled as "abortion"). And it has A TELOS (to achieve Paradise on Earth through the enforcement of the humanist mandate and with the aid of science and technology, which will alleviate all human/animal suffering and even grant us omniscience and eternal life).

      Delete
    16. @StardustyPsyche:

      "If you believe Jesus existed and you accept his authority you might want to pay attention to his humanistic admonitions based on his authority."

      So we should listen to imaginary figures (because you are certain Jesus was a hoax) as long as their "teachings" are in accord with the atheist dogma. A very rational approach.

      Lady Evolution says that life is a struggle, that the best fitted succeed and that the least fit suffer from scarcity and die. Under no way or circumstance is there a place for "humanism" in Nature, red in tooth and claw. Or maybe you are insinuating that there are genes that code for "altruism"?

      And why "humanism"? Why not an all encompassing veganism? Humanism sounds kinda discriminatory to me, and your religion forbids discrimination of any kind. Especially since according to your side, animals are capable of reason and love and even have culture.

      Delete
    17. UncommonDescent asks:
      " I am going to re-formulate the question: what makes "humanism" praiseworthy FROM AN EVOLUTIONARY-ATHEIST p.o.v.? "

      Aside from the bloviating self-congratulatory rhetoric Twinkles emits, the answer is, "Nothing"

      It ostensibly reduces to a matter of how he freely chooses and "defines" - so he claims - its own life. And that is praise enough.

      "I define my own meaning for life, and the sort of person I wish to grow to be and how I wish to live my life. "

      Except it is not because "he" does not. Since Twinkles rejects the existence of free will, " ... free will is an illusion and morality is relative."

      So he does not really engage in moral activity by choosing. He merely follows a path to a fixed outcome.

      And too according to Twinkles, consciousness itself is an illusion.

      To sum: According to Twinkles consciousness of the external world is an illusion; free-will or agency, is an illusion; the category of "man" is merely a term uttered with partial reference to hallucinated categories by wholly determined meat machines. Their illusions are by logical extrapolation themselves illusions or hallucinations of some kind.

      Nothing perceived, Twinkles thinks, is anything but a hallucination. So too by implication are the categories within the hallucination. Thus moral responsibility does not exist. Nor could it exist in any event, because of strict determinism.

      And to top it off, Twinkle's morality is not his "own" in any genitive sense anyway.

      "He" is, within a consistent moral reference frame, just a hallucinating random expression of a strictly determined physicalist outcome. He's not even a materially coherent agent in any morally meaningful sense, much less a member of a real species.

      So, it follows that if it is all an illusion, then so are the emotional pains and distresses of Twinkle's favored pets. Likewise, their suffering at not being included, affirmed, accepted and enabled to share the benefits of the life sacrifices of others who preceded and are only incidentally similar to them, are in some sense, hallucinations.

      As a result, those who are not them, have no real reason according to Twinkle's own grounding ontology to be concerned with the hallucinatory emotional comforts, or even the perpetuated existences of such entities.

      After all, the objects we are adverting to here, ex hypothesi lack a free will, any shared or mutual moral condition, any actual moral agency, or even a mind that is in veridical contact with an external reality.

      So, that distressed transgender gurl, squawking on the Internet, is now just a meat computer - and not a very effective one - having no central or fixed or essential or shared identity. It is further, merely hallucinating its "desires", and is in principle incapable of making morally meaningful choices or even accurately describing its own supposed wants. (insofar as it constitutes a meaningfully coherent "it" , i.e., the locus of those emissions)

      Thus its wants are not in any sense worth noticing, much less yielding to, unless you care to become a victim of its morally meaningless hallucination for some neurotic purpose best known to yourself.

      But maybe under this scheme which Twinkles has come up with, there are not even "neurotics" to be considered. Since in order to be abnormal there must first be a normal.

      Yeah. "We call them sociopaths" he comically chirps out, when referring to those whom he hallucinates have not "evolved" to share his own hallucinatory condition, sensibilities, and agitations.

      Some basis that, for staking moral claims against others ... You sociopath!

      But then, what's it mean to be called a sociopath by an alien? It's like being insulted by Lenin for not being sly-eyed and bald. Shrug ...

      Delete
    18. @DNW:

      "According to Twinkles consciousness of the external world is an illusion".

      I have had this discussion with materialists more times than I can count. Materialism entails representationalism and "illusionism" (we can never really get to know the external world). It's a self-defeating, absurd position. But when it is pointed to them, they play dumb (of course) and resort to their favorite rhetorical trick, the appeal to some "futuristic science" that will save their stinky metaphysics. (For example it happened in a long exchange that I had approximately a year ago with atheist resident Don Jindra, under the entry "Perfect World Disorder").

      Regarding this massive-elephant-in-the-room, I am quoting from Markus Gabriel's (excellent) book I Am Not A Brain :

      "Let us call the idea that we are our brains the crude identity thesis. A major weakness of the crude identity thesis is that it immediately threatens to encapsulate us within our skull as minded, thinking, perceiving creatures. It becomes all too tempting to associate the thesis with the view that our entire mental life could be or even is a kind of illusion or hallucination... This view, coupled with neurocentrism, supposes that our mental faculties can be entirely identified with regions of the brain whose function consists in constructing mental images of reality. We cannot disengage ourselves from these images in order to compare them with reality itself. Rainer Maria Rilke gets to the heart of this idea in his famous poem “The Panther”: “To him, there seem to be a thousand bars / and back behind those thousand bars no world.”

      People who lose contact with reality used to be called "mentally ill individuals". Now they are called "materialists".

      Delete
    19. "SP proudly proclaiming that their morality is derived from evolution"
      Why would I be proud of my evolutionary roots? It's not as though 4 billion years of evolution is somehow some great accomplishment of mine.

      Morality simply is an evolved mechanism of social interaction in a social species. Pretty simple.

      Delete
    20. Descent,
      "It has its own creative myth (nothing created everything),"
      You are wrong already, I did not express, nor do I hold any such opinion. The origin of existence is an unsolved riddle.

      "its own deity (the Demiurge a.k.a. Evolution),"
      Evolution is a process of material. Are you trying to be absurd?

      "its 1st Commandment (which has been stolen from Christianity, the well-known "love thy neighbor""
      So, Christianity invented love, altruism, positive social behavior? Really?

      "its own Inquisition ("cancel culture"),"
      So, religion entails violent cancel culture. You may be on to something with this one.

      "its own list of sins ("misogyny", "homophobia", "transphobia", "fatphobia", "racism", being "greedy", using fossil fuels,"
      You are apparently in favor of racism then?
      Or at least you would favor racism if you did not have a god telling you it was wrong?
      You can't figure out on your own by your own lights that racism is wrong?

      "It forbids the worshipping of deities other than the Evolutionary one"
      Humanists generally consider the 1st amendment to the US constitution to be rather a good one, guilty as charged.

      "forbids causing harm to Mother Nature."
      So pollution is just dandy with you, along with racism, apparently, since you need an external lawgiver to tell you that, it seems, you are unable to figure these things out on your own?

      "It has its own ritualistic practices (human sacrifice, now re-labelled as "abortion")."
      Suuuureeeee...because humanists hang around abortion clinics gleefully celebrating every abortion with demonic joy...

      "And it has A TELOS (to achieve Paradise on Earth through the enforcement of the humanist mandate and with the aid of science and technology, which will alleviate all human/animal suffering and even grant us omniscience and eternal life)"
      I am guessing you read a lot of dystopian science fiction, just a guess...

      Delete
    21. Descent,
      "Under no way or circumstance is there a place for "humanism" in Nature, red in tooth and claw."
      Clearly you are not aware of what a social species is.

      Delete
    22. "So he does not really engage in moral activity by choosing. He merely follows a path to a fixed outcome."
      False dichotomy.
      Choosing is following a fixed outcome.

      A sorting computer is deterministic in its decision making, it chooses a good widget from a bad widget.

      That's what choosing is, comparing data sets, determining actionable thresholds, and taking a particular action, as opposed to other actions, based on criteria as applied to data sets.

      In principle, on a deterministic cosmos, the whole of existence is a clockwork. The future state is entirely and precisely determined by the present state and the fixed transfer functions of material.

      We have no hope of ever consciously employing that principle because there are too many variables for us to manipulate consciously and because we have no means to consciously model all those states and transfer functions.

      Fortunately, we have available a number of evolved approximation and probabilistic methods that we can employ to function.

      Your silly charicatures are good for a chuckle but to the extent that you take them as some sort of serious analysis it only shows how simplistic and ignorant your analytical approach is.

      Delete
    23. SP: Because we humanists are evolved creatures endowed by nature with innate empathy, intrinsic altruistic and egalitarian moral sensibilities.

      Also SP: Why would I be proud of my evolutionary roots? It’s not as though 4 billion years of evolution is somehow some great accomplishment of mine.


      This is just embarrassing, dude.

      Delete
    24. " 'So he does not really eage in moral activity by choosing. He merely follows a path to a fixed outcome.'
      False dichotomy.
      Choosing is following a fixed outcome."

      Sorry, pal. You have already stipulated that there is no free will and all your "hallucinated" "choices" and outcomes are the result of a hard and fixed determnism.

      Your predetermined act of "choosing" then, lies on the same evaluative plane and deserves all the moral recognition of a mindless shaken screen, the mesh pitch of which just happens to pass certain marbles and restrict others.

      Less actually, since a shot screen or the stop dogs on an old fashioned turret lathe have a purpose ... even if that purpose is not their own.

      No feed back loop is even necessary to consider in evaluating your case; so leave it out. It merely serves as your attempted distraction from the crux of the matter.

      It's all a hallucination anyway. Including your comical lesbian rapper's pain.

      And you now try to drag UncommonDescent into a racism swale?

      In case you missed it, in your reality in which all outcomes were predetermined, free-will an illusion, and behavior fixed and predetermined by inheritance, then "racism" would not even rise to the level of a moral issue as presently defined.

      For, the predicate assumption that makes "racism" wrong, is based on free will and the idea that patterns of behavior which may resolve as antipathetic interpersonal interaction tendencies, are not in fact predetermined by inheritance; an inheritance, which can be predictably revealed by observing certain phenotypically linked traits.

      So, if your version of reality were true, then it would follow that,
      1. No moral discredit could accrue to racist exclusionary behavior, since in a reality lacking free will, no racist could be held morally responsible for its predetermined behavior; there being no god's eye view of conditions from which to even evaluate the rightness or wrongness of materially conditioned manifestations of nature.

      2, And worse yet for you, if it were true that styles of interpersonal behavior were predetermined by inheritance, then it would be reasonable to assume that manifest behavioral responses and group differences might be discernable on the basis of discrete lineages, and that racist discrimination was merely a probabilistic response of some toward others to predetermined material conditions.

      Why you keep lighting off these firecrackers in your own mouth is a puzzle. You only end up with a smouldering maw filled with broken teeth.

      Delete
    25. @StardustyPsyche:

      "You are wrong already, I did not express, nor do I hold any such opinion. The origin of existence is an unsolved riddle."

      So what if you don't hold it? Protestants and catholics do not agree in everything, but both are part of the christian religion. There may be schisms and different sects among the atheist faith. Best-selling books like Lawrence Krauss' A Universe from Nothing and Stephen Hawking's The Grand Design (which states that the Universe "bootstrapped itself into existence from nothingness") show that this creative myth is very important for atheist folks.

      "Evolution is a process of material."

      For lots of atheist folks, it is a creative force. Evolution directs, decides and orchestrates the destiny of all living creatures. It's a modern version of the old "Demiurge" (which it's what Richard Dawkins was hinting at with his silly book The Blind Watchmaker).

      "So, Christianity invented love, altruism, positive social behavior? Really?"

      Christianity made those things a definitory characteristic. Your "humanism" is a poor copy of it.

      "You are apparently in favor of racism then?"

      Nice fallacy of loaded question. I state that, as all religions, atheism has a code of conduct, a catalogue of "does and don'ts". Atheists believe that we are sinners and need redemption.

      "So pollution is just dandy with you"

      Nice try again. I say that the figure of "Mother Nature" is borrowed from pagan religions. You atheists don't have an original thought coming out of your heads.

      "Suuuureeeee...because humanists hang around abortion clinics gleefully celebrating every abortion with demonic joy..."

      If the "ritual" part makes you uncomfortable, I shall drop it. But although maybe not in a ritualistic way, you are nonetheless fond of the practice of human sacrifice.

      "I am guessing you read a lot of dystopian science fiction, just a guess..."

      I have read some cringey non -sense about our "material minds being uploaded into a computer" (eternal or cuasi- eternal life) and "science solving all riddles of the Universe" (which is precisely the meaning of omniscience, knowing it all).

      To all of the above add the aggressive proselytizing to gain converts in which vast numbers of atheists engage and there you have it: the religion of atheism. And one to be avoided at all costs.

      Delete
    26. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Clearly you are not aware of what a social species is."

      Social especies abound in Nature and engage in all kinds of horrendous behaviors, from infanticide (like lions) to alive dismemberment (like gorillas) and to slavery (ants). There's not a shred of "caring about the flourishing of the individuals" in there.

      Social =/=compassionate. Mommy Nature is an amoral bitch.

      Delete
    27. DNW,
      " Including your comical lesbian rapper's pain."
      Drake, btw, that's the joke...

      "behavior fixed and predetermined by inheritance, then "racism" would not even rise to the level of a moral issue as presently defined."
      It is a moral issue by my definition of moral issue. If you define morality otherwise then I define your morality as wrong.

      "For, the predicate assumption that makes "racism" wrong, is based on free will"
      Nope.

      Free will is irrelevant to humanistic morality.

      "predetermined by inheritance; an inheritance, which can be predictably revealed by observing certain phenotypically linked traits.
      "
      You have an absurdly simplistic, strawman, view of morality on determinism.

      "No moral discredit could accrue to racist exclusionary behavior, since in a reality lacking free will, no racist could be held morally responsible for its predetermined behavior;"
      In a sort of childish, simpleminded, strawman view of determinism I suppose that is all you have figured out so far.

      "there being no god's eye view of conditions from which to even evaluate the rightness or wrongness of materially conditioned manifestations of nature."
      God cannot be the source of objective morality either, the Euthyphro dilemma rules out god as the source of objective morality.

      "if it were true that styles of interpersonal behavior were predetermined by inheritance,"
      Who claims that? I see you are off on one of your silly simplistic strawman caricatures again, yawn.

      Delete
    28. "I say that the figure of "Mother Nature" is borrowed from pagan religions. You atheists don't have an original thought coming out of your heads."
      I don't believe in Mother Nature, so again, you are just making stuff up out of thin air.

      "you are nonetheless fond of the practice of human sacrifice."
      No, that is Christianity, in fact, lots of Christians carry a plastic or metal depiction of human sacrifice around as a necklace, mirror hanger, dash bobble, or just about anyplace. Some even kiss it from time to time.

      Catholics actually do ritualistically eat human flesh and drink human blood in a rather grotesque and primitive ritual of cannibalism.

      Those are just a couple of the things I found revolting about Christianity as a child, and still do.

      "I have read some cringey non -sense about our "material minds being uploaded into a computer" (eternal or cuasi- eternal life) and "science solving all riddles of the Universe""
      Right, that is the stuff of fiction, indeed, obviously.

      Delete
    29. "Social especies abound in Nature and engage in all kinds of horrendous behaviors, from infanticide (like lions) "
      And humans.

      "to alive dismemberment (like gorillas)"
      And humans.

      "and to slavery (ants)."
      And humans.

      So, humans share those antisocial behaviors with other social species, just as one would expect on materialism and evolution by natural selection.

      Note, however, that infanticide is generally rare in higher mammals. If it were the general rule in a species with limited birth rates and long periods of gestation and child rearing such a species would quickly go extinct.

      "There's not a shred of "caring about the flourishing of the individuals" in there."
      Wrong, and not just a little wrong, fundamentally and grossly wrong.

      Female mammals are well known to fight any threat to the offspring.

      Even among predatory social mammals there is relatively little infanticide, cannibalism, or fratricide, with a notable exception that males in particular often compete, sometimes mortally.

      In general social species have highly developed behaviors that appear at least superficially "moral".

      Delete
    30. @StardustyPsyche:

      "It is a moral issue by my definition of moral issue."

      But your definition of "moral issue" is incoherent. That's what's being pointed at you.

      Delete
    31. @StardustyPsyche:

      "I don't believe in Mother Nature, so again, you are just making stuff up out of thin air."

      You believe we are creations of nature (via the evolutionary process). Nature is magical and converted some inert chemicals into living creatures (abiogenesis*). So nature is akin to a mother figure, that which gives us life and that which sustains our existence. If we mess with her, we stop receiving life sustenance and go extinct. That's what "ecologism" is. The demise of our species would be the atheistic Apocalypse.

      *Magical thinking and a rehashing of the story told in the Book of Genesis. Again, zero originality. That's "cultural appropriation".

      "No, that is Christianity, in fact, lots of Christians carry a plastic or metal depiction of human sacrifice..."

      Jesus entered the crucifixion voluntarily. Ain't the motto his body, his choice? Totally unrelated with the death penalty imposed to pre-born humans by your bloodthirsty cult.

      "Those are just a couple of the things I found revolting about Christianity as a child, and still do."

      But you find dismemberment in the womb to be a great, noble practice.

      Delete
    32. @StardustyPsyche:

      "So, humans share those antisocial behaviors with other social species, just as one would expect on materialism and evolution by natural selection."

      But what one can not expect on materialism and evolution by natural selection is the existence of an objective moral standard of universal application to all members of a species. Which is what your "humanism" is. Unless you want to admit that it's not really objective, but culturally relative. Then no one should be bound by it. Being a "humanist" would just become a personal preference, like sexual orientation or enjoying cheesecake more than cherry pie.

      It's a maxim of metaphysics that you can not give what you don't have (unless you add some 'magic' to the mixture, which is what you naturalists keep doing all the time). Mommy Nature can not teach us objective moral standards of behavior, because being the silly cow that she is, she doesn't even know what that means. You need an external source, which is your dreaded *big G* (God).

      "Female mammals are well known to fight any threat to the offspring."

      Not even wrong. Female mammals of the H. sapiens species are well known to actively fight for the destruction of their offspring, making those females the primary threat to said offspring, via the act of abortion. And not only that, they are well known to actively facilitate, promote and advise the killing of their offspring to other females of the species, by codifying such practice into law and even make it free.

      Delete
    33. " ' ... behavior fixed and predetermined by inheritance, then "racism" would not even rise to the level of a moral issue as presently defined.'

      It is a moral issue by my definition of moral issue. If you define morality otherwise then I define your morality as wrong."

      And so it goes in the absurd Looking Glass world of Twinkle-twinkle-little-stardust.
      "When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

      ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

      ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”


      You see it's all quite simple and not mysterious at all, according to Twinkles. Humans, as Twinkles hallucinates them, are evolved social creatures, just like termites, ants, wasps, or chimpanzees; and thus programmed with all the manifest benevolence, altruism, and empathy they possess. More even. Lots of empathy going on here. Not to be blasphemous, but Empathy, kind of functions as the Paraclete in the trinity of the Atheist + creed.
      And Evolution sent Empathy to descend upon them that their altruism might be complete.

      Well, except for those who "we call sociopaths" who have not experienced the anointing of Evolution's special helper.

      And as the spirit of Empathy entered them and they were filled with the flame of altruistic enthusiasm, they began to speak in strange tongues; each speaking words according to the inspiration he received, words meaning whatever they wished them to mean at the moment: No more, no less.

      Thus while it is all so simple because "social animals", no non-initiate could possibly reconstruct what those possessed of the special gnosis really mean. And all such attempts by them are no more than the building of strawmen. For only the socially empathic understand the real meaning of the words they use in the manner which they choose to use them.

      So, yeah. When Twinkles proclaims he is hallucinating his "reality", it just might behoove us this once, to take him seriously.

      Delete
    34. " 'there being no god's eye view of conditions from which to even evaluate the rightness or wrongness of materially conditioned manifestations of nature.'

      God cannot be the source of objective morality either, the Euthyphro dilemma rules out god as the source of objective morality."

      Ahhh, no it doesn't. You have the imagined power of a dilemma in terms of logical analysis, as well as the supposed result of confronting that specific dilemma, both wrong.

      You should really read the "rule book" you were directed to. Although an introductory text, it might have preserved you from making such humiliating blunders.

      You clearly don't know what you are talking about and just blustering for effect.

      Sad ...

      Delete
    35. "Nature is magical and converted some inert chemicals into living creatures (abiogenesis*)."
      Self replicating molecules are not magic.

      Delete
    36. Descent
      "evolution by natural selection is the existence of an objective moral standard of universal application to all members of a species. Which is what your "humanism" is. "
      Objective? You are just making up more nonsense.

      "Being a "humanist" would just become a personal preference,"
      Right, and the problem is?

      "objective moral standards of behavior, because being the silly cow that she is, she doesn't even know what that means. You need an external source,"
      Logically impossible. The Euthyphro dilemma rules out objective morality from any source.

      Delete
    37. DNW,
      "You have the imagined power of a dilemma in terms of logical analysis, "
      Since you do not value logic you will not be convinced by logical arguments.

      Delete
    38. @StardustyPsyche:

      "... the Euthyphro dilemma rules out God* as the source of objective morality."

      False dilemma: https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/10/god-obligation-and-euthyphro-dilemma.html?m=1

      (Written god* in the original because Stardusty, the paradigm of rationality, experiences an intense emotional response towards non-existent entities).

      Delete
    39. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Self replicating molecules are not magic."

      Are you saying that self-replicating molecules are alive?

      Delete
    40. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Objective? You are just making up more nonsense."

      If it's not objective, then why do you keep condemning people from other time periods and cultures? Your platitudes about racism and slavery and the treatment of homosexuals become them profoundly silly. And especially since, if materialism is true*, no one can control their neurochemistry, which is the source of our thoughts about morality and our subsequent actions related to those thoughts. That neurochemistry is governed by the Laws of Physics, and not by our conscious self .

      "Oh, look, we "humanists" are such a fine group of "evolved" people, who value "human flourishing" not because God has told us so, but because The Laws of Physics, which are our piss-poor substitute for God, they have told us so, and we have to forcefully obey The Laws of Physics because we are their their faithful slaves and are so proud of it! Because being a silly automaton, a purposeless bag of meat is the best feeling on Earth! Now come join us, our Brothers and Sisters in Evolution!"

      "Right, and the problem is?"

      The problem is that people who value reason don't take seriously moral relativists who are also free-will deniers. As it should be.

      * It's s not true, for this reason and a myriad of others.

      Delete
    41. @StardustyPsyche:

      "Logically impossible. The Euthyphro dilemma rules out objective morality from any source."

      And why should we trust logic at all? Logic is only a valid tool if it tracks reality, but materialism forces us to live inside a permanent "hallucination".

      Delete
    42. Descent,
      "And why should we trust logic at all?"
      Up to you. If you don't value logic then it is no surprise to find your writing so lacking of it.

      "Logic is only a valid tool if it tracks reality, but materialism forces us to live inside a permanent "hallucination"."
      Logic seems to track my perceived reality quite well, so I employ logic extensively.

      If your perceived reality seems disconnected from logic I suggest you see a psychiatrist who might be able to prescribe medicines that will affect your brain in a way that makes your perceived reality more logical.

      Delete
    43. Descent,
      "https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/10/god-obligation-and-euthyphro-dilemma.html?m=1"
      This is just a wordy non-disproof of the dilemma. The "logic" employed is so bad it is almost embarrassing to read.

      All Feser does is a few word substitutions and verbal misdirection's. Once you clear the clutter of his "argument" the dilemma remains a true dilemma.

      No philosopher has soundly rebutted Plato speaking through the character of Socrates to the character of Euthyphro on this true dilemma, and Feser certainly has not.

      If you are taken in by a few paragraphs of such word salad then it is no surprise you do not value logic.

      "Are you saying that self-replicating molecules are alive?"
      Depending on the definition of life. One simple definition of life is a thing that is the product of a self replication, in which case a self replicating molecule is alive.

      A single cell organism is a system of self replicating molecules, or do you suppose each cell has a soul, or is nudged along by angels, or some such magical "explanation"?

      Delete
    44. @ StardustyPsyche:

      "Up to you. If you don't value logic then it is no surprise to find your writing so lacking of it."

      But you don't have answered why should I (or anyone) value logic. C'mon, Stardusty, you can do better. (Or can you?)

      "Logic seems to track my perceived reality quite well, so I employ logic extensively."

      The problem is that your "perceived reality" may have or not have anything to do at all with the REAL reality, since you can not disengage yourself from the representations that your brain sends your way. So what it "seems" to you is totally irrelevant to the point. You are not even in control of your thoughts, The Laws of Physics are.

      " If your perceived reality seems disconnected from logic I suggest you see a psychiatrist who might be able to prescribe medicines that will affect your brain in a way that makes your perceived reality more logical."

      Oh, no need to, thanks. I am quite happy with my metaphysics, which allows me a direct, intimate contact with extramental reality. It's your crappy materialism which forces you to take on the undignified role of the Mad Hatter.

      Delete
    45. @StardustyPsyche:

      "This is just a wordy non-disproof of the dilemma. The "logic" employed is so bad it is almost embarrassing to read. All Feser does is a few word substitutions and verbal misdirection's. Once you clear the clutter of his "argument" the dilemma remains a true dilemma."

      Oh Stardusty, you are so puerile.

      Where did Feser went wrong in his argumentation? For the Thomist, Euthypro's dilemma is a false one. And that has to do with the doctrine of Divine Simplicity.

      "No philosopher has soundly rebutted Plato speaking through the character of Socrates to the character of Euthyphro on this true dilemma, and Feser certainly has not."

      Argument by assertion. "Argument by assertion is a logical fallacy where someone tries to argue a point by merely asserting that it is true."

      That all you've got?

      Delete
    46. @StardustyPsyche:

      "One simple definition of life is a thing that is the product of a self replication, in which case a self replicating molecule is alive."

      But that changes nothing. The first self-replicating molecule had to come from non-alive chemicals. So Mommy Nature had to work her magic either way, converting inert chemicals into "alive ones". Didn't you say you employ logic extensively?

      Delete
  9. The "liberal conservative" tends to believe that wokeism is directly influenced by Marxism, but this ignores the influence of liberalism on modern egalitarianism or 'wokeism'. The liberal conservative believes that modern liberalism is "antiliberal" in direct opposition to classical liberalism. I take a different approach. I think the late Zippy Catholic and author James Kalb have compellingly argued that the classical liberalism of John Locke, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill is inchoate 'wokeism'. Once individual autonomy and freedom are taken as the highest governing principle, all institutions - government, family, culture, and the economy - must comply to this non-discrimination principle. Liberalism cannot be arbitrary restricted. Liberal conservatism is a dead end and will continue to converge with the more advanced liberalism as it historically has done.

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    Replies
    1. I don’t agree. If we still had a Christian foundation to society - and I mean Christian in a Catholic/Orthodox sense where it’s not up to each person to decide their personal truth of scripture alone - the having individual freedoms with an assumption of responsibilities towards a higher good, is not a dead end but a full expression of good society. He came so that we may have life to the full.

      So the problem comes when you combine the liberal ideals with a philosophy that has no grounding in anything transcendent, that actively tries to break down the social norms that have developed over millennia to encourage a cohesive society aimed towards something larger than the individual. If you look at places like Iran or Afghanistan today, they would be conservative and not liberal conservative. If you really want to live in that kind of society, I’d suggest you visit one of them for a while…

      Delete
  10. So, after numerous attempts today, this blog magically appeared on my tablet, after I wrote something for another, which was not acknowledged as received. Curious. Anyway, the vacuum bag is hot. I had tried to ask if there was any sort of mirror image to liberal conservatism: let's call it conservative liberalism. 1. If, and only if, that were the case, what would it consist of, and, 2. What, if any, legitimacy would we accord it?

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  11. From the UK it’s often very strange the way many in the US use the word “liberal”. When you hear people complaining about “liberals”, I wonder whether they would prefer an autocratic monarch/dictator, or some kind of collectivism/communism instead.

    Separated by a common language… although you sometimes see people picking up the US usage, presumably because of the US dominance on social media.

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  12. A lot of this nouveau terminology leaves me non-plussed. Lookism has no referrent in law, nor does linguistic discrimination. The entire conservative/liberal dichotomy is, frankly, ridiculous, IMHO. Should these notions be taken seriously enough to be subjects of legislative debate and ensuing action, hello George Orwell, Ray Bradbury and half a dozen more.Or, more. Come on , people. Think for yourselves. These other folks do not know any more than you do. Not in any practical sense, anyway...

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  13. I don't get the liberal conservative label. For the same reason I would not understand a conservative liberal one. Neither make sense to me. It is neither oxymoron nor paradox, in my view. Word salad. Pass the thousand-island, bleu cheese or ranch, please. Make sure the croutons are crisp and not rock-hard

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  14. It would be useful to consider the influence commercial interests have in changing the culture. Edward Bernays helped break down the cultural taboo of women smoking by advertising tobacco use for women as liberation from old fashioned, sexist norms. This so that tobacco companies could sell more cigarettes to a demographic that had been culturally isolated from that product by organic, cultural prohibitions. Might certain economic interests have benefited from pushing other revolutions later in the 20th century?

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  15. OP (by reference)
    "Yet, it seems just as likely that moral breakdown is being driven by changes in family structure and not vice versa. Study after study shows that family breakdown causes social pathology. So, how do we discern the chicken from the egg?"
    Digging deeper into the bizarre thoughts of the OP reference, is it really so hard for Pilkington to understand that there is no single chicken or egg? Apparently Pilkington does not know what a positive feedback mechanism is.

    They are both the chicken and the egg for each other.

    "It is therefore in the interest of the owners of the app to design the app in such a way that it is addictive and ensures frustration on the part of the consumer. And so, it is of no surprise that all dating apps ultimately collapse into delivering sexual intrigue no matter what they promise. "
    "By damaging the capacity of people to form families, have children and increase the labour force, dating apps are generating not only costs on our society but are proving extremely taxing on our economy."
    Huh?
    Uhm, Pilkington, individuals write their profiles, make contact, and do whatever they want after that, pretty simple.

    Pilkington seems to think there is some terrible capitalist making sure folks just hook up but don't fall in love and form a long term relationship. How would that work, exactly?

    Pilkington does not offer a proposed mechanism for his invented evil capitalist relationship destroyer. How absurd.

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