tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post8839618306027223285..comments2024-03-29T08:19:26.011-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Why Archbishop Viganò is almost certainly telling the truthEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger128125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-82634295473034611162023-12-03T11:04:22.614-08:002023-12-03T11:04:22.614-08:00Why does Vigano play games with Catholics? He shou...Why does Vigano play games with Catholics? He should have created change or he should have left the mainstream Church, long ago. What is his real reason for speaking out,why now? He seems only to give false hope. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-37683812573764403322022-10-10T21:58:35.909-07:002022-10-10T21:58:35.909-07:00Beware of clergy and churchmen who work for the Va...Beware of clergy and churchmen who work for the Vatican ll Church. They are controlled opposition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-68349824263447348642022-09-19T00:55:59.369-07:002022-09-19T00:55:59.369-07:00Vigano is controlled opposition. He plays both sid...Vigano is controlled opposition. He plays both sides. He works and is part of the mainstream church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-43317147695896863122018-10-05T04:43:34.873-07:002018-10-05T04:43:34.873-07:00Agreed. The idea that a resignation must be invali...Agreed. The idea that a resignation <i>must</i> be invalid in the mere presence of pressure is absurd. If it's a free decision, then it's a free decision regardless of the circumstances. There is a substantial difference between freely resigning under pressure and being forced to resign.Albinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03569576207090703708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-62174159822810180122018-10-04T19:03:51.513-07:002018-10-04T19:03:51.513-07:00I disagree with Lawler here, even though I usually...I disagree with Lawler here, even though I usually think he is spot-on. If the Pope resigns <i>in the midst</i> of public outcry, he should make it 100% clear that his resignation is <b>not on account</b> of the public outcry, but on account of no longer being able to carry out the office of pope, no longer able to be an effective "servant of the servants of God". This would be true because of his untenable position as the person charged with cleaning up the corruption, including the corruption that brought him to power. <br /><br />Even so, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that public outcry could be a factor that brings him to REALIZE that he cannot fulfill the duties of the office. Here's how: with public outcry, more and more bishops, and even more and more cardinals, would have the courage (or, in many cases, the "courage") to stand up to Francis and say "no". No to ongoing corruption, no to carrying out his requests that are pernicious, no to cooperating with business as usual, ultimately even no to EVERYTHING that they can possibly convince themselves they are not <b>strictly</b> obliged to obey from Francis. No to Peter's Pence, for example. Call up and say "you know that 5th year ad limina visit...I can't make it now. Nor next month. How about in 3 years..." Anything and everything that could possibly be delayed or ignored: this is the non-compliance that could bring Francis to his knees, if anything other than DIRECT grace can do so. And the more there is a public outcry, and public support for cardinals doing non-compliance, the more cardinals will feel able to employ it without damaging the Church irreparably. <br /><br />So, it <i>could</i> happen. And without being destructive of the papacy. In the ultimate analysis, leaving a failed and corrupt person in place because his leaving is disruptive is not enough of a good reason. The papacy will survive, just as the Church will. If getting him to realize he needs to leave is what it takes, well, that's the way the ball bounces. Let the truth reign. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-48682307049628312152018-09-24T08:51:20.956-07:002018-09-24T08:51:20.956-07:00You couldn't have said it better Danielos. Ful...You couldn't have said it better Danielos. Fully agree with you. Some people here think that the Holy Spirit guides them better than the officials of the Church. In stead of praying for the Church and its sheperds, we prefer to quibble about how awful they are.Rickson Menezeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07279971504036918321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-78338430250860757802018-09-24T00:49:57.922-07:002018-09-24T00:49:57.922-07:00Tony, You write:
“The Magisterium is the teaching...Tony, You write:<br /><br />“The Magisterium is the teaching office, held primarily by the bishops. It's job is to teach the truth, not to investigate, try, and punish malefactors.”<br /><br />I was speaking about sorting out the truth, not about trials and punishments. I mean what is happening to you? <br /><br />“Events have proven that currently the bishops' organs are inadequate to the crisis.”<br /><br />Aha, and you are the judge who has decided this. <br /><br />And in any case shouldn’t the Catholic layman have trust in the wisdom of the institutions of the Church? <br /><br />“The shenanigans of the bishops and cardinals and (arguably, at this moment) the Pope show that the layman should not put his trust in these men to correct the evils, no matter how they are organized into cadres and conferences and committees.”<br /><br />It seems you think the laymen have a better understanding than those who lead the Catholic Church. <br /><br />“Describing the Church in the US as "conservative or fundamentalist" is so wildly inaccurate that is is hard to imagine a less valid description.”<br /><br />I never said that the Catholic Church in the US is conservative or fundamentalist. You are so angry you are not even reading what the other person is saying. <br /><br />You really should think a little about the virtue of humility. The church is guided by the Holy Spirit – gently but surely. Your job is to repent, not to save the CC from Satan. <br />Dianelos Georgoudishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09925591703967774000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-14789583897881583042018-09-19T21:25:42.566-07:002018-09-19T21:25:42.566-07:00Tony: I suspect there is more to the story than we...Tony: <i>I suspect there is more to the story than we understand so far. I don't know what. </i><br /><br />That may be the most sensible comment on the whole matter that I have read. (Arguably the <i>only</i> sensible comment.)Mr. Greennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-53371723264962249222018-09-18T14:49:29.046-07:002018-09-18T14:49:29.046-07:00Philip Lawler a strong critic of Pope Francis make...Philip Lawler a strong critic of Pope Francis makes the case AGAINST Pope Francis resigning even if he is guilty.<br /><br />https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1305Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-42631284904412725722018-09-17T16:16:16.696-07:002018-09-17T16:16:16.696-07:00@Tony
Your doubts about Vigano are interesting si...@Tony<br /><br />Your doubts about Vigano are interesting since you will criticize the Holy Father's theology at the drop of a hat(which I am not complaining about mind you even if I disagree on some secondary points and agree on others).<br /><br />What is called for is a dispassionate look into the matter devoid of politics.<br /><br />I said it before and I will say it again. If Francis was as conservative as Pius XII but pulled this nonsense a case can be made that he should go.<br /> <br />OTOH even if he is as liberal as Charles Coran that would not give Vigano license to torpedo his Papacy just so we can elect a more "conservative" Pope next time.<br /><br />Right is right and wrong is wrong and we need to investigate this with facts not ideology.<br /><br />Keep up the good work man.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-71871775794007435272018-09-15T15:32:23.306-07:002018-09-15T15:32:23.306-07:00I would rather put it this way: The People of God ...I would rather put it this way: The People of God have a right to clerics who are faithful to their commitment to celibacy, as part of their commitment to serving the Church. This centers the thing in the People of God, i.e. the Church and not in a clericalist apparatus that "runs a system" and realizes purges (a term which is redolent of Stalinism). <br /><br />It is like the case of matrimony. A woman has the RIGHT to her husband's fidelity. She can raise hell about it because it is her right to raise hell. <br /><br />Still you wouldn't say that women have the right to purge unfaithful husbands, would you?<br />What would be wrong with such a purge? Think about it.<br /><br />Raising hell is more open-ended. It allows the possibility of repentence and reconciliation. That can be the fruit of raising hell. <br />(Suppose that there was someone like McCarrick who repented of his sins. I am not saying that McCarrick repented of his sins, but I am saying that different cases are possible, that there are many possible scenarios in this game.)<br /><br />But a purge by definition does away with all the fine distinctions that a genuinely pastoral approach presupposes. <br /><br />(And I know that by talking about a genuinely pastoral approach I have got the anti-Francis faction grinding their teeth and fuming at me. They will screech “Why that sounds like Amoris Laetitia”! And you are right it does sound like Amoris Laetitia. But a genuinely pastoral approach MEANS an approach full of zeal for the Kingdom of God, just as purges mean Stalinism, bloodlust and in this specific case homophobia.)<br /><br />Yes I know that homosexual acts are gravely sinful, that they constitute a sin that cries out for vengeance. But sin is a highly spiritual and personal matter. A Police state is NOT the answer to sin. A police state is not an adequate means to realize that hatred of sin which corresponds to an authentic love of God.<br />Carl Kuss, L.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10348528727574912301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31475938879397497532018-09-15T13:35:35.767-07:002018-09-15T13:35:35.767-07:00Tony,
Isn't it obvious? This is politics. P...Tony,<br /><br />Isn't it obvious? This is politics. Pope Francis is a liberal. Archbishop Vigano is a conservative. We - and I consider myself a conservative - lost the conclave and now we're fighting back. Archbishop Vigano's testimony is, I hope, part of a greater conspiracy that will pressure Pope Francis to resign. Then, we can elect a proper conservative.<br /><br />Call this struggle, and the teams, whatever you'd like, but that's what this is. And while we mustn't lie, politics isn't about getting to the truth, it's about winning. And I hope we win, for a little longer. Because when we've really lost, it's going to be miserable. Imagine, imagine trying to fight the good defeat with even the Holy Father against us? No thanks. We're not Protestants; we need worldly signs of Christ's promises. I am,<br /><br />DidymusDidymushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02339106708590191194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-83991477597686063652018-09-15T11:33:23.954-07:002018-09-15T11:33:23.954-07:00I remain in considerable doubt that Pope Benedict&...I remain in considerable doubt that Pope Benedict's effectively private chastisement of McCarrick that Vigano claims makes sense, and was not itself a clear failure to take action. And that failure would be on the pope's part, not (primarily) that of Wuerl or McCarrick. <br /><br />Secondly, I remain unconvinced by Vigano's "explanation" of why he made nice comments about McCarrick at the event designed to praise McCarrick: <i>why was he even there to begin with?</i> He should have absented himself - even if he didn't have the balls to do so publicly and vociferously (as in "hell, no, I would never attend an event like that"), he could always "arrange" to have other commitments and merely refer to them - "I am so sorry, I have other commitments". It is silly in the extreme, I am afraid, to simply pass over his choosing to be there in the first place as if it were not a signal failure in its own right. <br /><br />I also don't think I get why Vigano thinks now is the right time to have acted. Yeah, McCarrick's sins have now come out. So? He knew of the problems long before, and he could have acted a long time ago. <br /><br />Although I don't think Vigano is per se <i>lying</i>, I suspect there is more to the story than we understand so far. I don't know what. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-59514080761430125932018-09-15T11:18:44.950-07:002018-09-15T11:18:44.950-07:00But the anti-Francis faction is not interested in ...<i>But the anti-Francis faction is not interested in reform. They want scapegoats. They want blood. They want to wash their hands, so that they don't have to consider their own errors. </i><br /><br /><i>They say that this distracts from the GREAT PURGE OF HOMOSEXUAL CLERGY which they propose. </i> <br /><br />Carl Kuss, you are not seeing the truth clearly, and one suspects that your apparent animus against the outspoken advocates of traditional, standard, orthodox Catholicism is at fault: It is <i>precisely as part of the needed reform</i> that Catholics are calling for a purge of the homosexualist clergy. A NECESSARY part of the reform: for behold, it is the <b>lack of response</b> by the hierarchy to the abuses going on that is a critical element of the crisis: you can't feasibly claim "we are fixing it" without being seen to go after the abusers. <br /><br />But note carefully: while it is patently true that the crisis resides in and among the homosexual clergy and their enablers, the orthodox, believing Catholics are NOT calling for a purge of every single priest who suffers from same-sex attraction. If a priest has the disordered inclinations, but (a) has never acted on them in sin with another male, or even (b) has given in to temptation once or twice in the distant past, repented, and turned away from that lifestyle without ever once trying to twist the channels of power to protect him, nobody is trying to discover his distant past and purge him from the clergy. It is true that his SSA problem should have disqualified him from the seminary, and in any well-run system it would disqualify him, but <i>not with any animus against him personally</i>. It is improper and uncharitable to put him into a situation so ripe with temptation to him, neither he nor his superiors should want that for him, and EVEN ASIDE from the fact that a homosexual priest is not going to be as capable of making manifest the "nuptial meaning of the Church" as the bride of Christ, it is just a bad idea all around. But all that aside, if he was ordained a priest, and has lived for 2 or 3 decades as a priest without damaging the Church by grave sins of unchastity with other men (or unintentionally but effectively undermining the Church's teachings on the disorder of homosexuality) he can go on performing his ministry as best he can. He is not the problem. The problem is all the homosexual priests who give the lie to chaste marriage by their behavior, and by their deformed preaching, and (especially) by their corrupting the seats of power in the Church through their covering for each other and demanding the same from bishops. Such priests <i>publicly</i> damage the Church, and should be purged. This includes a significant number of bishops and even cardinals. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-1489433400030375772018-09-13T05:43:37.905-07:002018-09-13T05:43:37.905-07:00Totally agree with Carl Kuss. If you read Vigano&#...Totally agree with Carl Kuss. If you read Vigano's documents he makes all kinds of unsubstantiated claims not to mention keeping Pope JPII's secretary out entirely while talking of McCarrick's appointment. Everything in his document is a "He said" "She said" "I knew it meant" without any proof of letters. <br />Rickson Menezeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07279971504036918321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-78247209213243479932018-09-12T23:33:35.384-07:002018-09-12T23:33:35.384-07:00I think Archbishop Vigano is telling the truth. B...I think Archbishop Vigano is telling the truth. But I don't think it matters. Either way, Pope Francis now knows what 'Uncle Ted' is accused of, but he isn't swinging from a gibbet in St. Peter's Square, is he? Until I can watch that on LiveLeak, I'm with Archbishop Vigano: Pope Francis must resign. I am,<br /><br />Didymus<br /><br />"Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomor′rah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground."Didymushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02339106708590191194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-91271647965659698512018-09-12T22:30:33.117-07:002018-09-12T22:30:33.117-07:00You are a fruitcake. You are a fruitcake. Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31209509044870923262018-09-12T22:26:54.935-07:002018-09-12T22:26:54.935-07:00Yep nutters......Yep nutters......Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-5275665076586860852018-09-12T22:26:34.053-07:002018-09-12T22:26:34.053-07:00Radtrads, Atheists and Protestants and now we can ...Radtrads, Atheists and Protestants and now we can add Marconites. Oh my!<br /><br />Where are the Lions and tigers and bears when you need them?Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-67963708158629775662018-09-12T17:18:05.423-07:002018-09-12T17:18:05.423-07:00Ben, Jesus was not a "Rabbi." He was opp...Ben, Jesus was not a "Rabbi." He was opposed to the Jewish establishment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-49693568521442692142018-09-12T16:19:40.889-07:002018-09-12T16:19:40.889-07:00Poor thing.Poor thing.Carl Kuss, L.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10348528727574912301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64004453447560276832018-09-12T11:00:32.072-07:002018-09-12T11:00:32.072-07:00I am surrounded by nutters on the far left and far...I am surrounded by nutters on the far left and far right. Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-67590965972886688762018-09-11T20:48:49.828-07:002018-09-11T20:48:49.828-07:00It looks like Cardinal Wuerl is going to retire no...It looks like Cardinal Wuerl is going to retire now. The anti-Francis faction is going to paint him as an evil person, something he was not. Just ask those who know him. They are going to paint him as a "homosexualist" and as someone guilty of coverup of abuse. <br /><br />Oh sure he appears often enough in the Pennsylvania findings. He was I suppose a cog in the machine of coverup. That was what the Pennsylvania findings affirm that there was a SYSTEM of coverup, with the strong suggestion that this system was CHURCHWIDE. This means that the Churchwide system must be reformed. <br /><br />But the anti-Francis faction is not interested in reform. They want scapegoats. They want blood. They want to wash their hands, so that they don't have to consider their own errors. <br /><br />You can see this in the fact that they are presently objecting to the interest that Pope Francis has been showing, ESPECIALLY IN RECENT MONTHS, in the victims of abuse. They say that this distracts from the GREAT PURGE OF HOMOSEXUAL CLERGY which they propose. A purge mind you, nothing pastoral, nothing that really has to do with conversion, charity or genuine care for the sheep.<br />Carl Kuss, L.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10348528727574912301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-13440689979454782842018-09-11T20:45:48.358-07:002018-09-11T20:45:48.358-07:00The Franciscan reform has been opposed by people w...The Franciscan reform has been opposed by people who align themselves with Trump, or with the European far right. I am just noting the fact. The Franciscan reform is ecclesiological and spiritual, not political. It just happens to be opposed by people for political (i.e. worldly) reasons.<br />In the battle for his reform, which Francis has waged boldly, Francis has had to make do with the allies who were available to him. And there you will have imperfect men. One has to do with what one has. <br />I am not saying, by the way that McCarrick is merely an imperfect man, but one should ask the people who knew him (or thought they knew him) if he was a monster. People such as Cardinal O’Farell and Cardinal Wuerl. They were shocked by the revelations. They did not and do not think of him as a monster. Life is strange, isn’t it?<br />Carl Kuss, L.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10348528727574912301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-87263005081093042752018-09-11T20:40:35.406-07:002018-09-11T20:40:35.406-07:00You affirm that I belong to some extremist faction...You affirm that I belong to some extremist faction because I defend Francis and the reform that he represents, but I also defend Benedict and John Paul II, both of whom represented a certain reform, though each one of these may have made mistakes. <br /><br />I have nothing against these mistakes being brought to light. <br /><br />Feser and Vigano clearly belong to an extremist faction which has sadly become rather widespread in the U.S.: those who are willing to attack Francis by any means available, to paint him as the spider at the center of the "homosexualist" web, whereas what Francis has done steadily and consciously since the beginning of his pontificate is attack 1. Clericalism 2. Moral rigorism 3. The Culture Wars approach to poltics, an approach vitiated by Manichean thinking, integralism and theocracy (cfr. the essay of Fr. Spadaro. <br /><br />(Feser in his fanatic commitment to the Death Penalty shows his sympathy with the integralist conception of the Church-State relation, a conception which the Church has rejected especially since the Second Vatican Council, and in fact already before the Council.) <br />Carl Kuss, L.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10348528727574912301noreply@blogger.com