tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post7801677999368201217..comments2024-03-28T03:20:15.940-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Why allow abortion but not “same-sex marriage”?Edward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-83838840937400944232021-06-27T21:14:20.135-07:002021-06-27T21:14:20.135-07:00Ah, 2008. Good times. If someone in 2008 had said ...Ah, 2008. Good times. If someone in 2008 had said "in 13 years, people who oppose Gay marriage will be publicly ostracized, and the idea that people can switch their genders will be taught to young children" some people would have laughed. Anyway, I'll make sure to try and come back again in 2034- who knows what we'll be doing then. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-29260257831948668622008-11-11T20:13:00.000-08:002008-11-11T20:13:00.000-08:00There is also some decent stuff on sexuality in Gr...There is also some decent stuff on sexuality in Gregory Vlastos' book on Socrates. Interestingly, he understands Socrates' refusal to indulge his inclinations as rooted in the idea that to do so would harm the boys (ancient Greek homosexuality, if you aren't aware, tends to be presented specifically as pederasty and not as a sexual relationship between grown males, though that does seem to show up in the Symposium). Since it would harm the boys, it couldn't be virtuous, and so it would harm Socrates too. <BR/><BR/>The other obvious place to go for Plato's ideas about homosexuality is the Phaedrus. People sometimes make a big deal about the fact that Plato doesn't seem to think that homosexual inclinations are necessarily bad, but it should be obvious from the Phaedrus if from nothing else that he does think that indulging the inclinations would not be a good thing. Crucially, though, not much about Plato's view rides on rejecting <I>homosexual</I> acts in particular. Plato seems to be more concerned about the potentially negative effects that <I>any</I> sexual acts in which people instrumentalize each other for pleasure can have; it just turns out that homosexual acts can, on his view, <I>only</I> involve instrumentalizing others for pleasure. Plato is arguably even more suspicious of sex than John Paul II, who seems to have thought that marital sex of the right kind could be an extremely great thing; Plato seems to think that sex of any kind can <I>never</I> be an intrinsically good thing (and Augustine expressed a similar view). <BR/><BR/>As for why people vote against gay marriage but don't ban abortion, I think I have a more accurate suggestion. Lots of people, I think, believe that abortion is usually wrong but that there are a variety of situations in which it is a lesser evil. Since they think those situations are hard to define, they can't bring themselves to support an all-out ban on abortion or anything that seems like it would lead to such a ban. A whole lot of people also think that marriage should be between one woman and one man, <I>even if they don't think that homosexuals should be denied something like civil unions</I>. That is, they either see nothing intrinsically wrong with homosexuality or don't feel justified in legislating against it, but they think that the institution of marriage should be about more than just lifelong partnerships involving sex. I suspect that there are lots of people who hold both of these positions, and thus would vote to ban gay marriage but not to ban abortion. Such people have a fairly permissive attitude towards homosexuality in general and a fairly negative view of abortion in general, but come down in perhaps unexpected ways on the legal questions because of the particular character of their views. I'm not out to defend those views, just to offer them up as explanations for why people vote the way they do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-44539080033021316332008-11-08T20:00:00.000-08:002008-11-08T20:00:00.000-08:00TSP, I think that's spot on.Neil, Socrates did hav...TSP, I think that's spot on.<BR/><BR/>Neil, Socrates did have homosexual inclinations, as did Plato. And there is an obvious homosexual element in dialoges like the Symposium. But Socrates' view seems to have been that it would be ignoble to indulge these inclinations, and Plato is even more explicit (in The Laws) that homosexuality is contrary to nature. Michael Ruse's book Homosexuality: A Philosophical Inquiry has a brief but useful discussion of this.Edward Feserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-54210963864910635252008-11-07T16:32:00.000-08:002008-11-07T16:32:00.000-08:00I think same-sex marriage and the homosexual movem...I think same-sex marriage and the homosexual movement in general is more "in your face" than abortion.<BR/><BR/>Are there any works you could refer me to on Plato and homosexuality. I've started re-reading Plato's dialogues and I get the distinct impression that Socrates was a homosexual.Neil Parillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11074901258306769278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-70914300123950233352008-11-07T02:20:00.000-08:002008-11-07T02:20:00.000-08:00It's an interesting post. In my neck of the woods,...It's an interesting post. In my neck of the woods, abortion has recently been legalised to 24 weeks of gestation. In my profession(medicine) the response to this change has been interesting. Many doctors who are pro-abortion in the early stages of pregnancy, are actually anti-abortion after about the first trimester. logically inconsistent? yes.<BR/>I think the the phenomena can be explained by the human predilection for "form" over "essence". i.e It's not human unless it looks human. Homosexuality obviously offends the average man's view of marriage since it doesn't confirm to the "form" of marriage, a bunch of cells doesn't qualify as a human being. People are shallow and superficial.The Social Pathologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12927698533626086780noreply@blogger.com