tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post3513202481067424312..comments2024-03-18T15:57:33.286-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Superheroes and sentimentalityEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-53993569759828645502010-09-12T19:50:01.827-07:002010-09-12T19:50:01.827-07:00Dr. Feser,
I'm sorry, but can't conservat...Dr. Feser,<br /><br />I'm sorry, but can't conservatives be just as sentimental as liberals? I mean, how much appeal to sentiment do you think goes into the anti-abortion movement? Just as much (if not more) than in the animal "rights" or environmentalist crusades.<br /><br />I'm not saying this to vindicate liberals or condemn pro-choice PR tactics, merely to point out that vice is not the domain of any one political faction.<br /><br />Rodak,<br /><br />Yes, of course most self-controlled people want others to practice self-control! That's because temperance is <i>virtuous</i>, and the purpose of society (and government) is to inculcate, preserve, and fortify <i>virtue</i>. (For more, see Aquinas' <i>Treatise on Law</i>, esp. I-II:92:1.)Leo Carton Mollicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-44421787066462877172009-08-11T00:16:14.648-07:002009-08-11T00:16:14.648-07:00Thanks a lot for this insightful post and for your...Thanks a lot for this insightful post and for your further answers.<br />Is it really so that B is easier than A? As far as I am concerned, I live a life of self-control and contentment. God helped me insofar as my children are wonderful and I did not have even to think about an abortion. So, for me A has always been relatively easy and natural (it makes me feel good to think I will never cheat on my husband, maybe as good as someone else would feel while cheating on him!). On the other hand, my father left my mother (a wonderful person, as he also admits) because of a student of him. She then managed to get a baby (this does not mean that my father did not contribute, of course, but she explicitly lied about her alleged impossibility of getting pregnant). My sister and I lernt to love our step-mother and our half-sister. A week after she became full-professor (through our father's constant support), our step-mother left him for another man (who also had left his wife and their two adopted children for her). Short, I cannot forgive her. For me, non judging her is far beyond my moral abilities.<br />Since I am referring to so many people (especially my half-sister), I hope you will understand my reasons not to write my name.smefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-81800840221383901982009-08-07T11:22:21.805-07:002009-08-07T11:22:21.805-07:00That which I'm referring to also holds whether...That which I'm referring to also holds whether or not it is imposed by law. It becomes more problematic, however, when it is imposed by law. An example would be the irrational "war on drugs," which--although being anti-drug often has a sound practical basis--is (I believe) largely waged on the basis of sentiment. <br />In the beginning, it was <em>felt</em> that the "right sort" of people just didn't do that kind of thing, etc.<br />But when social pressure fails to quell the enthusiasm for, say, marijuana, or single malt scotch, those self-controlled individuals who find the use of weed or whiskey <em>repugnant</em> almost inevitably seek to legislate against its use. The result for us is a prison population so large that we can't build enough cells to keep up, while drug use goes on unabated.<br />If the self-controlled could just remain self-contained, everything would be hunky-dory.Rodakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00077919085157653816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-5806125201904961852009-08-07T11:17:19.585-07:002009-08-07T11:17:19.585-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rodakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00077919085157653816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-80891600490586773372009-08-07T11:04:15.215-07:002009-08-07T11:04:15.215-07:00Rodak,
First, the point has nothing to do with an...Rodak,<br /><br />First, the point has nothing to do with anyone trying to impose a moral standard by force of law. The point has to do with the demanding nature of the standard itself, and holds even if the standard is not enforced by law.<br /><br />Second, what you say does not in any case address the issue at hand, viz. whether a conservative moral standard is (a) more demanding and (b) less likely to foster sentimentalism.Edward Feserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-26394394524202156802009-08-07T10:53:57.491-07:002009-08-07T10:53:57.491-07:00The problem is that those who practice self-contro...The problem is that those who practice self-control (as opposed to tolerance), so often want to subject the Other to that same control by fiat. <br />I would rather be allowed to make my own mistakes than to be "saved from myself" by the legislated imposition of YOUR moral standards.Rodakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00077919085157653816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-32631736544024480752009-08-07T10:42:49.837-07:002009-08-07T10:42:49.837-07:00"Do you really think that all people on the l..."Do you really think that all people on the left are sentimental, and no people on the right are?"<br /><br />Of course not. I've already said otherwise. Anyway, you'll notice that I've been focusing on "conservative _morality_" vs. "liberal _morality_," as opposed to "conservatives" vs. "liberals." Since fewer self-described conservatives these days actually try to live by a conservative morality, what I have to say applies to many of them as well; and since there are political liberals who live fairly conservative personal lives, what I have to say would apply to fewer of them than it might seem.<br /><br />All the same, the point remains that a morality that emphasizes tolerance is bound to be both easier and more likely to lead to sentimentalism than a morality that emphasizes self-control. Is there more to the liberal morality/conservative morality difference than that? Sure, but that's surely a major part of it -- certainly it's not absurd to suggest that it is. <br /><br />Anyway, I respectfully suggest you and Amod calm down a bit and actually try to address the point instead of whining about "liberal bashing." To criticize something isn't necesarily to "bash" it.Edward Feserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-62469924237730484032009-08-07T07:49:10.332-07:002009-08-07T07:49:10.332-07:00Ah, I've been wasting my time. Amold already s...Ah, I've been wasting my time. Amold already said it all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-22194150329364935242009-08-07T07:47:25.053-07:002009-08-07T07:47:25.053-07:00Oh, but it's okay, because you admit that cons...Oh, but it's okay, because you admit that conservatives "sometimes" are guilty of sentimentalism. <br /><br />I wish I could belong to this select political ideology that seems largely immune to ordinary human vices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-28104659246054786152009-08-07T07:44:30.941-07:002009-08-07T07:44:30.941-07:00Your comparisons between 'liberal' and ...Your comparisons between 'liberal' and 'conservative' morality, besides only vaguely mapping onto the actual moral beliefs of most people, have the disadvantage of being overly charitable towards conservatives and basically caricaturing liberals. It sure is easy to argue against people when you can make up their positions to be as ridiculous as you want, huh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-4593624940874867912009-08-07T07:41:10.011-07:002009-08-07T07:41:10.011-07:00This was a great post until it devolved into a lib...This was a great post until it devolved into a liberal-bashing game. Get real, Ed, sentimentality and hypocrisy don't belong to any political party. Do you really think that all people on the left are sentimental, and no people on the right are? If so, you're even more of an ideologue than I thought.<br /><br />To take a simple example, criticizing some features of capitalism while benefiting from it is hardly any kind of logical or performative self-contradiction. At the very least, it's no more contradictory than a libertarian or anti-statist conservative working for a college that receives state and federal funding - which, the last time I checked, included most libertarian and anti-statist political philosophers with academic jobs.<br /><br />To take another example, liberals frothing at the mouth about how Bush was a "fascist" is no different from conservatives whining about how Obama is a "socialist." Both of them are ridiculously over-simplified and verge on abuse of the English language.<br /><br />Sentimentality is a vice, but so is being a moral simpleton.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-42968079721275500132009-08-06T11:32:58.254-07:002009-08-06T11:32:58.254-07:00Amod Lele,
First of all, yes, conservatives are a...Amod Lele,<br /><br />First of all, yes, conservatives are also sometimes guilty of sentimentality in the bad sense of the term Scruton describes.<br /><br />Second, what is more difficult:<br /><br />A. Refraining from fornication, determining to stay in an unhappy marriage no matter what, keeping an unwanted baby, etc.<br /><br />or<br /><br />B. Not judging people who fornicate, get divorced, abort their babies, etc.<br /><br />I submit that A is obviously much harder. But liberals tend to see greater moral virtue in B. Hence liberal morality is to that extent much easier than conservative morality and thus much more likely to lead to sentimentalism in the bad sense in question. For to focus on subjective attitudes and feelings (of tolerance, compassion, etc.) as definitive of virtue rather than difficult overt behavior (especially behavior requiring that one fight one's feelings) just is to be sentimental in the sense in question.<br /><br />So, that's why I gave the example in question. A reasonable person might still disagree with the claim I'm making, but I don't think it amounts to a Daily Kos-style rant. <br /><br />Third, you are right that it is easy for some guy out in the middle of Kansas (or wherever) to denounce militant Islam. But my point wasn't "See how virtuous conservatives are for denouncing militant Islam!" My point was that it is silly to think it _courageous_ for a liberal to denounce evangelical Christians, especailly if that same liberal minimizes the dangers of militant Islam, accuses those who criticize it of being bigots, etc. <br /><br />Finally, the reason I suggested that Rorschach might be the intended moral center of the movie is that he is the only one who always does exactly what he thinks is right and is always willing to pay the price, including death. Nite Owl and Silk Spectre, by contrast, though they seem almost as wary as Rorschach is of what is done at the end of the movie (to keep things vague for people who still haven't seen it) do nothing to try to stop it, certainly not at the risk of their lives. Indeed, it seems they end up after everything that happens living a life of yuppie comfort -- not something I imagine anyone, including Moore and Gibbons, would regard as particularly heroic.<br /><br />That's my take, anyway -- I might be wrong.Edward Feserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-40657042891706237642009-08-06T10:16:59.823-07:002009-08-06T10:16:59.823-07:00I don't think it's totally accurate to reg...I don't think it's totally accurate to regard Watchmen and other flicks as "just fantasy". I'm a comic fan myself, and the idea that comics in general (not just more "serious" comics like Watchmen, but even more typical stuff like the day to day Marvel universe) doesn't often involve commentary or presenting, subtly or not, a political viewpoint.. that's nonsense.<br /><br />(In fact, I only recently became a comic fan. Politics was one reason for the delay: Whenever I picked up a random comic at the comic store, I inevitably grabbed something with political preachiness to the extreme. I somehow managed to get ahold of a Swamp Thing where Swamp Thing never showed up, and it was just a one-shot tale of some ludicrous caricature of some evil right-wing guy slapping the lesbianism out of his ex-wife, beating up on liberals, then becoming president with the warning that "this could happen".)Crudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04178390947423928444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-89203870668936799982009-08-06T09:49:02.529-07:002009-08-06T09:49:02.529-07:00"Moral centre" is a bit strong; I don..."Moral centre" is a bit strong; I don't think the movie really had such. But they did seem to be presented as the most moral characters in the movie, certainly much more than Rorschach. I can't think of any leftist who would have approved of Rorschach's actions if a real-life person were to have committed them; at most, they made for an enjoyable fantasy.Amod Lelehttp://loveofallwisdom.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46828522873920363502009-08-06T07:06:50.870-07:002009-08-06T07:06:50.870-07:00Maybe I saw a different movie.
Nite Owl and Silk S...Maybe I saw a different movie.<br />Nite Owl and Silk Spectre were the moral center?<br />They just had their blood-lust under (slightly) better control.Deanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11474497646507178537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-38558413943121568252009-08-06T06:54:23.805-07:002009-08-06T06:54:23.805-07:00Dear Edward,
I've recently been reading and e...Dear Edward,<br /><br />I've recently been reading and enjoying your blog, and was quite disappointed by this post. The list of examples here seems to be rather a laundry list of things you don't like about the left. Some of the items have in common a sort of grandstanding posturing with no beneficial effect, where the moral outrage is an end in itself; that's fair. But I'm left scratching my head as to what on earth "thinking that refraining from sex until marriage is not particularly virtuous" has to do with this. <br /><br />Similarly, I hope you will admit that it is just this kind of sentimentality to derive a sense of virtue from anti-Clinton (or anti-Obama) bumper stickers, going to "tea party" rallies, signing pro-life petitions; or to believe that it takes real courage to denounce militant Muslims who don't care about your little town far from the symbols of power. I don't see how your concept of sentimentality can have any consistency whatsoever without including these; but they go unmentioned.<br /><br />I was hoping, and saw some signs, that your blog would be a place of thoughtful philosophical reflection with insights valuable to those who don't happen to share your political leanings (as, say, Front Porch Republic is). In this post I see what begins as a potentially interesting reflection on the concept of sentimentality, degenerating into a way of scoring cheap political points. If you aspire to be a Daily Kos of the right, well, I can't stop you, but I'm not interested in reading any further. (I don't read Daily Kos either, for the record.)<br /><br />Sincerely, Amod.<br /><br />P.S. I was surprised to read in your previous post that Rorschach was considered the moral centre of Watchmen. It seemed to me that he, like Ozymandias, was being presented as ambiguous at best; Nite Owl and Silk Spectre were the ones shown as genuinely moral.Amod Lelehttp://loveofallwisdom.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31127024516303057892009-08-05T10:42:54.577-07:002009-08-05T10:42:54.577-07:00That's part of it, Jack -- as are hypocrisy, m...That's part of it, Jack -- as are hypocrisy, malice, and hatred of tradition. To put it mildly.<br /><br />BTW, in answer to your question on an earlier thread, I should have part II up sometime this week.Edward Feserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-87551363365161479072009-08-05T09:11:41.301-07:002009-08-05T09:11:41.301-07:00A sentimental person, according to Scruton, tends ...<em>A sentimental person, according to Scruton, tends to be quick to respond emotionally to a stimulus, will appear to be pained but will enjoy his pangs</em><br /><br />Hmmm. This may explain some of the strange, contradictory feelings I experience while kicking my little pup, Masoch-by-Proxy, around the yard to let off steam...Rodakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00077919085157653816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-19936196765191814362009-08-05T08:21:49.879-07:002009-08-05T08:21:49.879-07:00As a former leftist and a former athiest, I hearta...As a former leftist and a former athiest, I heartally concur with Ed.<br /><br />BTW Ed, do you detect a similar vein of thought within our Church which approves no end of the Church involving herself in 'social justice' issues but moans whenever the Holy Father does something to regularize the situation of a certain traditionalist group named after the successor to Leo XIII ?Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-38250074132948822472009-08-05T07:37:42.603-07:002009-08-05T07:37:42.603-07:00Sentimentality is typical of the emotional falsene...Sentimentality is typical of the emotional falseness that is a defining characteristic of neurosis. It distinguishes liberalism from other forms of leftism.Interstellar Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14609957210536917411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-32577782951476219542009-08-05T07:03:39.577-07:002009-08-05T07:03:39.577-07:00Bingo.Bingo.Michael Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04046677690934254475noreply@blogger.com