Despite its Thomism, this is not a history of philosophy. It engages deeply with recent work in
philosophy…
This is an outstanding contribution to the literature that will make a Thomistically inspired view on certain central anthropological questions clearer and possibly more attractive to many readers. Feser’s lively prose and careful argumentation are a pleasure to read, and his ideas are important. I highly commend and recommend the book.
Thomism and animalism
Toner raises
some important lines of criticism as well.
He introduces one of them as follows:
This is a Thomistic work, and the position defended here
falls within the family of contemporary views known as animalism. But unlike some animalists, Feser is not a
materialist: he defends the reality of the soul as an immortal, non-material,
entity…
[S]ince Feser is defending a form of animalism, it is
surprising that the most prominent living animalist, Eric Olson, does not make
an appearance.
He goes on
to cite Olson’s essay “An Argument for Animalism,” from the anthology Personal Identity, edited by Raymond
Martin and John Barresi.
Before I
turn to Toner’s objection, let me pause to comment on these remarks. Toner’s suggestion is interesting, but as it
happens, I have myself long rejected the idea that the Thomistic position
amounts to a version of animalism. And
the reason has to do precisely with the differences he cites between my views
and those of writers like Olson. In the
essay in question, Olson tells us that “animalism implies materialism (animals
are material things)” (p. 319). And in
response to the question whether we are more than animals, Olson says:
If someone complains that the committee is more than just the
chairman, she means that it is not the chairman: it has other members too. If we are more than just animals in something
like this sense, then we are not animals.
We have parts that are not parts of any animal: immaterial souls,
perhaps. (p. 321)
Since Olson
is, as Toner says, the most prominent animalist, I’ve always taken his views to
be paradigmatic of animalism. But Olson
takes animalism to imply materialism and to rule out our having immaterial
souls. Since, as Toner notes, I along
with other Thomists reject materialism and affirm the reality of immaterial
souls, the natural conclusion to draw has long seemed to me to be that the
Thomist view is not in the same family as Olson’s.
Of course,
it’s true that Aristotelians and Thomists take human beings to be rational animals, which is no doubt why Toner thinks
of the Thomist position as a kind of animalism.
But the point is that what Olson
means by “animalism” seems distant enough from the Aristotelian-Thomistic
position to make it potentially misleading to see them as part of the same
family of views.
In fact, the
distance between animalism and the Aristotelian-Thomistic position is even more
radical than what has so far been said indicates. I commented on Olson in my 2005 Social Philosophy and Policy essay “Personal
Identity and Self-Ownership,” where I wrote:
[T]he hylemorphic conception of human nature associated with
the Aristotelian and (especially) Thomistic traditions… holds that the
relationship between the body and the soul – the seat of rationality and
personality – is an instance of the relationship between matter and form
generally. The soul, that is to say, is
the substantial form of the body – that which makes it the distinct kind of
thing it is. The human person, on this conception, is thus a
composite of form and matter, soul and body: neither the soul alone nor the
body alone counts as a complete person, any more than a chunk of matter counts
as a desk apart from its having the form of a desk, or than the form of a desk
counts as a desk without having matter to instantiate it…
This distinguishes hylemorphism from a view that might appear
similar to it, namely, the variation on the bodily-continuity theory that takes
a human being to be identical to a kind of animal. See, e.g., Eric T. Olson, The Human Animal: Personal Identity without
Psychology (New York: Oxford University Press, 1997). For that view seems to entail that our
psychological traits are not essential to us: were your cerebrum to be removed
and put into another body, the rest of your body would, if it survived, still
be the same animal (now just missing an organ) and thus the same human
being. It, and it alone, would be you – even though some other body (the
one that received your cerebrum) would now have (what used to be) your
thoughts, memories, etc. On the hylemorphic
view, though, you are essentially an embodied
soul: both the bodily and psychological (and thus distinctly personal)
aspects are essential… [T]he “animal” view seems to externalize one’s distinctly
psychological traits… (p. 120)
The cerebrum
transfer scenario is one Olson discusses both in his book and in the article cited
above. When he says that human beings
are animals of a certain kind, he takes this thesis to have the bizarre
implication just described. Accordingly,
he says, “the identity conditions of animals… have nothing to do with psychological
facts. Psychology [is] irrelevant to our
identity over time” (“An Argument for Animalism,” p. 325).
This seems
to entail that our rationality is not essential to the kind of thing we
are. Animality alone is essential. Obviously, this is worlds away from the
Thomist position. Indeed, if anything,
the opposite extreme view (Cartesianism) is closer to the Thomist position,
even though it too is erroneous. After
all, according to the Thomist view, our souls survive the deaths of our bodies
and retain the use of our rational powers despite our animal powers being no
longer operative. Cartesianism at least gets
that much right, even if it wrongly takes the soul to be a complete substance
in its own right and wrongly judges our animal powers to reside in a second,
distinct substance. Cartesianism makes
the mistake of reducing us to our rationality, but animalism appears to make
the opposite extreme mistake of reducing us to our animality. In reality, we are both rational and animal.
So, the
Aristotelian-Thomistic position seems to me to be at odds with animalism rather than being a version of animalism. It is
no more a version of animalism than it is a version of Cartesianism, but is instead
a third position distinct from both. But
I think Toner is right that it would have been better for me to say at least
something about it in the book, so as to make this explicit.
Thomism and survivalism
Let’s turn
now to Toner’s first objection, which it seems he thinks is a natural one to
raise given that (as he supposes) the Aristotelian-Thomistic view is a
variation on animalism. He begins as
follows:
Feser's “surivivalism”… holds that the human substance that I
am will survive my death. But surely my
death involves the corruption of something. What is this something? Put this another way. Prior to my death, there is a composite of
form and matter present. After my death,
there is not. What is that composite of
form and matter? And what is its relationship
to me?
What I’d say
is that what corrupts at your death is your body, and that for that reason,
while the human substance that you are survives, it does so only
incompletely. In other words, the part
of you that is bodily corrupts, but you
don’t entirely corrupt, because you’re not entirely bodily. You’re also partly incorporeal, insofar as
you have an intellect. As to the form in
question – your soul, the substantial form of the human being that is you –
that is the form of something bodily, but not the form of something entirely bodily, because, again, you are
not entirely bodily. Hence the form
carries on after death as the form of an incomplete substance, namely you reduced
to your incorporeal part, with the matter that the form once informed having
dropped away.
Toner continues:
Olson's work brings out many worries for views like Feser's
that it would have been good to see addressed. For example, does that something that corrupts
at my death have any capacity for thinking? If so, does Feser's view face the worries raised
by the “thinking animals argument”? Of course I do not here suggest that Feser
can't handle such problems. I merely
note that I think he needs to handle them. And his brief way of addressing worries like
this seems to be to compare death with something like a whole-body amputation. But what's “amputated” in death appears to be
the whole composite of matter and substantial form. Can we really compare this to the amputation
of a limb?
Toner asks
whether the something that corrupts at death has any capacity for
thinking. The answer is no, because what
corrupts at death is the part of you that is bodily, and that is not the part
of you that grounds thinking. What
grounds thinking is the incorporeal part of you, which carries on after
death. That you lose the body at death
no more entails that you lose the part of you that grounds the capacity for
thinking any more than the loss of a finger or a leg would entail this. That is why I compare the loss of the body to
an amputation.
Toner
objects that “what's ‘amputated’ in death appears to be the whole composite of
matter and substantial form,” but that’s not quite right. The substantial form carries on after death
and it carries on as the form of a substance, indeed of the same substance of
which it was the form before death, namely you.
But that substance is now, after death, an incomplete substance, because you now have lost the exercise of all
of your bodily capacities and been reduced to just your (incorporeal)
intellect.
Toner
suggests that Olson’s “thinking animals argument” poses a challenge to my
position, but it does not. As Olson sets
out the argument in “An Argument for Animalism,” it basically goes like this:
There is a human animal sitting in your chair; that animal is thinking; you are
the thinking thing sitting in your chair; therefore, you are that animal.
To the
uninitiated, this may seem like a trivial argument, but it is not. Olson is appealing to mundane facts, but his
point is to use them against theories of personal identity that focus on
psychological attributes to the point of divorcing us entirely from our animal
nature. For example, Locke’s theory does
this when it holds that two persons could switch bodies (as in Locke’s prince
and cobbler example). Views that
identify the mind with software do the same thing when they hold that you could
be uploaded onto a computer and leave human physiology behind altogether. Olson is arguing that, on the contrary, you
are not merely a kind of software, or a set of memories and psychological
traits, that happen contingently to be associated
with that animal sitting in your chair.
Rather, you are that animal
sitting in your chair.
All well and
good. But how is this supposed to be a
problem for my view? I would agree with
Olson that you are the animal sitting in your chair. What we would disagree about is this. Olson would say that that animal is entirely
bodily, and I would say that it is not.
It is partly incorporeal, and it is by virtue of being partly
incorporeal that it is the sort of animal that is able to think. It is also by virtue of being partly incorporeal
that it can, unlike other animals, carry on after its body dies as an
incomplete substance.
But though
Olson would disagree with all that, there is nothing in his “thinking animal
argument” itself that shows that it
is wrong. That argument is simply meant
to support the conclusion that we are animals.
And I agree with Olson that we are animals. What is in dispute between us is whether we
are entirely corporeal animals or partially corporeal animals. Olson’s argument says nothing about that one
way or the other.
Substantial corruption?
Raising
another objection, Toner says that “it would also help if Feser would deal
directly with what Christopher Tomaszewski calls the Argument From Substantial Corruption…
which I suggest is really the principal philosophical reason to endorse corruptionism.” The argument in question is defended by Tomaszewski
in his Proceedings of the American
Catholic Philosophical Association article “Thomas
Aquinas on Death as Substantial Corruption,” and as Tomaszewski
notes, it is an argument earlier defended by Toner himself. As Tomaszewski presents the argument (on p.
222), it reads as follows:
1. The death
of the human person is either a substantial corruption or an accidental
corruption. (Premise)
2. If death
is a substantial corruption, then the person is corrupted at death. (Premise)
3. If death
is an accidental corruption, then either the person is an accidental unity of
substantial body and substantial soul, or the body is an accident of the
substantial soul, or the soul is an accident of the substantial body. (Premise)
4. The
person is not an accidental unity of substantial body and substantial soul.
(Premise)
5. If the
body is an accident of the substantial soul, then the human person is his soul.
(Premise)
6. The human
person is not his soul. (Premise)
7. If the
soul is an accident of the substantial body, then the soul is corrupted at
death. (Premise)
8. The soul
is not corrupted at death. (Premise)
9.
Therefore, death is a substantial corruption. (1 and 3-8)
10. If the
person is corrupted, the person ceases to exist. (Premise)
11.
Therefore, the person ceases to exist at death. (2, 9, and 10)
Why should
one accept the premises of this argument?
The reason, Tomaszewski says, is that they are either explicitly held by
Aquinas or implicit in Aquinas’s more general metaphysical commitments. Hence a Thomist should accept them, and thus
accept the corruptionist conclusion that follows from them.
The first
thing to say is that, of course, survivalists too appeal to what Aquinas
explicitly says and what is implicit in his more general metaphysical
commitments, and draw a different conclusion.
What this indicates – and what is in fact the case, in my view – is that
there is some tension between the various things Aquinas said that are relevant
to this issue. That should not be
surprising. Aquinas does not explicitly
address the controversy between corruptionism and survivalism, which is a
recent development. He had different
targets in view. On the one hand, he
wanted to argue for the immortality of the individual human soul by appealing the
individuality and incorporeality of the human intellect. On the other hand, he wanted to argue against
the Platonist view that the body is entirely extrinsic to the person, by
appealing to the Aristotelian thesis that the soul is the form of the
body.
When carrying
out the first task, Aquinas sometimes says things that make him sound like a
survivalist, and when carrying out the second he sometimes says things that
make him sound like a corruptionist. But
again, he wasn’t explicitly addressing that controversy, and it is a mistake
flatly to assert either that he was a survivalist or a corruptionist. If we’re going to force his position into one
of those categories, we’re probably going to have to at least seriously qualify
some of the things he explicitly says.
Let’s
concede premises 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 of Tomaszewski’s argument. As to the other premises, it seems to me that
there are two ways the survivalist could reject at least one of them in order
to block the conclusion. The first is to
reject premise 3 as a false choice. For
there is a fourth alternative, which is to say that the substance in question
is not the soul or the body but the person,
of which soul or body are accidents, one of which (the body) is corrupted at
death.
Tomaszewski
briefly considers this objection and rejects it on the grounds that for
Aquinas, soul and body are substantial constituents of the human person rather
than accidents, and are also essential parts rather than accidental, integral
parts of the person (p. 223). But the
survivalist can respond as follows.
Bodily organs like eyes and ears, heart and lungs, hands and feet are
integral parts of the human person. And
obviously a person can lose one or more of those and still survive. But death essentially involves losing all of
them at once. The person nevertheless
survives, because the substance that the person is is not exhausted by these
bodily organs. He also has an intellect,
which is incorporeal and carries on after death. Since (the survivalist could argue) this
follows from Aquinas’s overall account of human nature, either Aquinas should
be interpreted as holding this view, or anything he says that appears to
conflict with it should be qualified or rejected.
Alternatively,
the survivalist could concede premise 3, taking the option of holding that the
body is an accident of the substantial soul and embracing the implication that
the human person is, therefore, his
soul. To block the conclusion of the
argument now, the survivalist would reject premise 6, or rather argue that it
needs to be qualified in a way that prevents it from doing the work that the
corruptionist needs it to do. True, as
Tomaszewski notes, Aquinas says “my soul is not I” (Super I epistolam beati Pauli ad Corinthios lectura, c. 15, l. 2). But immediately before that remark, he says
that “the soul… is not an entire man”
(emphasis added). So, Aquinas can be
read as saying, not that the person can in no
sense be identified with his soul, but only that he is not entirely reducible to his soul. Or, if this is not what Aquinas thought, it
is (so the survivalist could argue) what he should have thought given his other
commitments.
By no means
is this an ad hoc move to get around
the corruptionist conclusion. On the
contrary, Aquinas says many things that imply it. For example, he says that after death, the
soul still understands, prays, and so on.
But only persons can do things like understand and pray. So the soul after death must in some sense be
a person. And obviously, it cannot be
some person different from the person whose soul it is. Your soul is, after all, rewarded or punished
for what you have done, in which case
it must in some sense be you.
In my view,
corruptionists put excessive emphasis on the second, Aristotelian component of
Aquinas’s overall project, which appeals to the idea that the soul is the form
of the body. They are so fixated on this
that they seem to think it obvious that the person must go out of existence at
death. They do not sufficiently appreciate
the implications of the first component of Aquinas’s project, which grounds
immortality in the incorporeality of the intellect. For this leads Aquinas explicitly to judge
that the soul is very different from the forms of other material things, and
indeed is a kind of substance in its own right.
Hence, in Disputed Questions on the Soul, Aquinas
says that “the soul is itself an intellective substance” (Article XV). In the Summa
Contra Gentiles, he characterizes it as an “intellectual substance” even
though it is also the form of the body (Book II, Chapter 68). Now, a person just is an intellectual substance,
according to the Boethian definition of “person” that Aquinas accepts. It follows that, in some sense, the soul must be a person – in which case, since the soul
survives death, the person survives death.
Aquinas also
emphasizes that because it has an incorporeal operation, then although it is
the form of the body, “the intellective soul… which transcends the condition of
corporeal matter, must not be wholly
encompassed by or imbedded in matter, as material forms are” (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book II, Chapter
68, emphasis added). Again, he says that
“from the fact that the intellectual substance is in matter it does not follow
that it is a material form, because the
soul is not present in matter in the sense of being embedded in it or wholly
enveloped by it” (Summa Contra
Gentiles, Book II, Chapter 69, emphasis added).
Now, if the
soul is a kind of intellectual substance and also, despite giving form to the
body, is not “wholly encompassed by
or imbedded in matter” nor “wholly
enveloped by it,” then it seems to follow that the corruption of the body is not the corruption of the substance, for the form is the form
of a substance that is not entirely bodily.
And since an intellectual substance is a person, it follows that the
corruption of the body does not entail the corruption of the person.
Again, this
will require qualifying Aquinas’s statement that “my soul is not I.” It will also require qualifying other
passages. Tomaszewski cites another
passage from Disputed Questions on the
Soul, where Aquinas says:
Furthermore, if the soul were in the body as a pilot in a
ship, it would follow that the union of the soul and body would be an
accidental one. Then death, which brings
about their separation, would not be a substantial corruption; which is clearly
false. (Article 1)
What Aquinas
is rebutting here is not survivalism, though – again, the dispute between
survivalism and corruptionism is a recent one – but Platonism. He is rejecting the Platonic view that soul
and body are two substances each complete on its own and only accidentally
related to one another, and endorsing instead the thesis that soul and body
together comprise a single substance, complete only when both are present. And of course, the survivalist does not deny
that. It is to emphasize that it is only
when soul and body are together that they make up a complete substance that
Aquinas characterizes death as “a substantial corruption.” But according to the survivalist, what he
means, or should mean, is not that it is a complete
corruption of the substance. That can’t
be the case, given the other things we’ve seen him say.
Indeed, in
the very same Article from Disputed Questions
that Tomaszewski quotes from, Aquinas also says that “the intellective soul
must have a complete act of existing in itself, depending in no way on the body.” Again, he there says:
[T]he soul is a particular thing and… it can subsist of
itself, not as a thing having a complete
species of its own, but as completing the human species by being the form of
the body…
For, inasmuch as the human soul has an operation transcending
the material order, its act of existing transcends the body and does not depend
on the body…. [though] evidently its species can be complete only when it is united to a body… [Hence] obviously the
soul itself is established on the
boundary line dividing corporeal from separate substances…
[W]hile the soul can subsist of itself, it does not have a complete species, for the soul needs the
body to complete its species…
[T]he human soul is not
a form totally embraced by matter…
The thing that is properly corrupted is… the composite. Moreover, the body’s act of existing is said
to be corruptible inasmuch as the body by corrupting is deprived of the act of
existing which it possessed in common with the soul; which act of existing remains in the subsisting soul…
[T]he body shares in the soul’s act of existing, but not as
perfectly as the soul does. (Emphasis added throughout)
Now, we
noted already that elsewhere in the Disputed
Questions on the Soul, Aquinas characterizes the soul as an “intellective
substance.” And in the passage just
quoted, he indicates that it is, specifically, a substance “on the boundary
line dividing corporeal from separate substances.” In particular, whereas corporeal substances
are entirely embraced by matter, the human soul is “not… totally embraced by matter.”
For unlike corporeal substances, the human soul has an operation that
does not depend on matter, and for this reason it “can subsist of itself” and “its
act of existing transcends the body and does not depend on the body.” At the same time, it also differs from separate
substances insofar as, unlike them, it is not “complete” in the absence of the
body. This is what puts it on the
boundary line. It is a substance that is
partly corporeal and partly incorporeal, whereas the other two kinds are either
all corporeal or all incorporeal. What
is strictly corrupted at death, though, is “the composite” of soul and
body. But that does not entail that the substance is entirely corrupted. Indeed, the very same act of existing that
the composite had “remains in the subsisting soul,” which always had it more “perfectly”
than the body in the first place. And
that act of existing is a substance’s
act of existing. Hence, the “intellective
substance” carries on after death rather than being corrupted, albeit not in a “complete”
way since the body is needed for its completeness. And since an intellective substance is a
person, the person carries on after
death rather than being corrupted.
That, in any
event, is a survivalist reading of these texts.
And the corruptionist can hardly complain if this reading qualifies
certain things that Aquinas says. For
corruptionists have to make qualifications of their own in order to make
Aquinas’s texts fit their position. For
example, they will have to qualify Aquinas’s remarks to the effect that the
soul is itself an “intellectual substance” or “intellective substance,” or explain
how it could be such a substance without in any sense being a person.
Substantial forms without substances?
Toner raises
one last objection:
Feser asks “How could a form exist apart from the substance
of which it is the form?”… He views this as a key question, since on the
corruptionist account, our substantial forms exist after our deaths without informing anything… Feser
agrees with some critics of Thomism that the continued existence of a substantial
form after the destruction of the substance it informed is incoherent. But he shouldn't agree with these critics. When Feser cites Denys Turner and William
Hasker making this objection, he points out that, for example, Turner suggests that
the human soul is like the Cheshire cat's smile, which couldn't survive the
death of the cat. But the objection treats
the human soul as a mere accidental form. Once it is so treated, of course it seems
mysterious to think it could survive. But
neither Feser nor his corruptionist opponents think of the human soul this way,
and Feser himself has explained in detail that the human soul has its own operation
(intellection) and so isn't dependent on the body for its existence. Indeed, all substantial forms other than the human
soul are educed from the potency of the matter. But the human soul is specially created by
God. It has an origin and an operation
wholly distinct from the origins and operations of any other substantial form. Suggesting, then, that, like all other
substantial forms, its continued existence after the corruption of its
substance is unacceptably mysterious seems unmotivated. The objection that Feser thinks his
survivalism answers is no objection at all.
But what I
find puzzling is that Toner is in no way puzzled. First, it is true that the example Turner
cites (the Cheshire cat’s grin) happens to be an accidental form, but that is
not essential to the point he was making.
We can state his point instead by trying to conceive of a situation
where the substance of the Cheshire
cat is entirely destroyed and yet the cat’s substantial form (not just the form of cat in the abstract, but that cat’s individual substantial form) somehow nevertheless persists. That is, of course, if anything even more absurd than the cat’s grin
persisting, not less. And that’s the
problem with the corruptionist position.
To say that the human soul persists after death but that the substance
of which it is the form in no way persists sounds like saying that the substantial
form of a cat could persist, without the substance that was the cat in any way
persisting.
In no way
does it help for Toner to suggest that the solution to the problem lies in the
fact that “the human soul has its own operation (intellection)… [which] isn't
dependent on the body for its existence.”
For while intellection doesn’t depend on the body, it doesn’t follow that it or any other operation could fail
to depend on a substance. In particular, it hardly follows that it
doesn’t depend on the particular sort of substance that we call a person.
Indeed, angels possess intellects despite not having bodies, but they
are substances, and in particular they are persons. Yet the corruptionist seems to be saying that
intellection occurs despite there being no person nor even any substance around
to carry out this operation!
Or, if the
corruptionist admits that there must be such a substance, but that it is an incomplete one, then he owes us an
explanation of how this differs from the survivalist view – which is precisely
that the person carries on as an incomplete substance. Nor will it help to say that an incomplete substance
carries out this operation, but that this substance is not a person. For how could a substance carry out
intellection without being a person?
True, it is an incomplete
substance, but all this entails (the survivalist will retort) is that it is an incomplete person, not that it is a non-person.
Nor does it
help for Toner to suggest that the mystery is solved by noting that God
specially creates the human soul. For
even God cannot specially create something the very concept of which is
incoherent (round squares, for example).
So, if the notion of a substantial form existing without there being any
substance for it to be the form of is an incoherent notion, then even God could
not create such a thing.
Nor would it
help for the corruptionist to suggest that such a thing is not naturally
possible, but that God creates it by way of a miracle. For one thing, even miracles cannot involve
something the concept of which is logically incoherent. For another thing, even if the corruptionist
scenario were not incoherent, if it required a miracle then it could not claim
to be an accurate presentation of Aquinas’s
view of the soul. For Aquinas claims to
be telling us what the soul is like by
nature, not what it is like as a result of special divine supernatural action.
So, it seems to me that Toner’s objections to survivalism can all be met. But I appreciate the serious engagement with my book that these important objections represent, and I appreciate his very kind words about the book.

I feel like there was a missed opportunity to work in one of those notorious panels from Batman #66. Or to put it another way:
ReplyDelete"This emphasis on Toners has given me an idea for a new adventure in metaphysics. Philosophy will rue the day it mentioned the name Toner!"
Ha! Embarrassed to say that I get it. ;-)
DeleteI've got to say, as much as I like the various arguments in philosophy of mind that cut against materialism, I think I've always been most impressed with the issues surrounding self-identity (both synchronic and diachronic).
ReplyDeleteSynchronically, and on materialism, it isn't clear to me how we can properly designate some specific parcel or aggregate of matter that is me in a way that isn't utterly arbitrary on the one hand, or which doesn't result in an absurdly large number of persons occupying more-or-less the same space on the other.
Diachronically, given we are always changing, it seems that we, as persons, cannot persist through time. Animalism of Olson's variety seems to fall prey to a dilemma where one either accepts reductionism or denies it. In the reductionist case, the animal is not actually fundamental or really doing the work, but rather the constituent particles (or whatever), which are constantly in flux. Now, one could deny reductionism, although I think this basically lets something like Aristotelianism through the door, at which point we aren't talking about full-blown materialism anymore anyway.
Psychological accounts don't seem to fare much better. While I recognize there have been responses to issues surrounding memory loss and loss of consciousness, it seems pretty difficult to get the plane off the ground here. Moreover, if one has false memories about one's past and duration of existence, it is difficult to see how we can say those memories are, in fact, false, unless we are appealing to some more fundamental thing which has the memories and to which said memories can be correlated.
There are some escape routes available to the materialist, though I don't think any are particularly enticing. We could embrace a nihilism about persons, though I think Ed aptly refutes that in his book. We could also deny any serious importance to the notion of self-identity, both presently and over time, but that also seems to have a steep hill to climb in order to make it at all coherent and intelligible.
ccmnxc,
DeleteYou ought to keep in mind that there aren't many people who would call themselves "materialists" in the strict sense (as in "matter, specifically, is the only thing that exists"). That's one specific sub-branch of the Naturalist tree. Physicalists and other Naturalists can allow for the existence of things like forces, fields, information, spacetime, emergent properties, and so on.
This is also relevant to what you say about reductionism. Emergent properties are not reducible to their constituent parts, that's what it means to be an emergent property. Stars are almost exclusively bundles of hydrogen and helium, but they cannot be reduced to hydrogen and helium atoms. Neither hydrogen atoms nor helium atoms produce heat and light, but when placed together under immense gravity, they undergo processes which *produce* heat and light. Being hot and bright is thus a property of a star, but not a property of its constituent parts. As far as I know, this kind of thing is what most physicalists suppose consciousness to be - an emergent property of the brain rather than something reducible to any specific part.
If you want to argue that this is a *kind of* Aristotelianism, well, that's another discussion, but even if it were true, it wouldn't imply the belief in immortal or immaterial souls. It could, if you wanted, be thought of as a *kind* of soul. After all, not everyone who ever believed in souls thought they were immaterial and indestructible, that was specifically Plato's invention. Epicurus thought the soul was a mist of extremely fine matter spread throughout the body, and which dissolved upon death. The Stoics thought of it as a kind of corporeal breath (hence why they didn't believe a fetus became a full person until birth, when it became exposed to the outside air and the soul could enter the body).
ccmnxc,
DeleteActually, I share your fascination with identity. I think the best physical hypothesis that we currently have is that the self is something the brain synthesizes from the sensory inputs, a kind of model of the world. There's been some interesting research on this topic - for instance, magnetic stimulation of the Right Temporoparietal Junction (rTPJ for short) region of the brain has been known to disrupt the sense of self-identity. Let me be clear what I'm saying here. Most likely, you think of yourself, your "Me" as being something sitting inside your head, somewhere behind your eyes. Disruption to the rTPJ disrupts this feeling that you are sitting behind your own eyes, causing an experience very similar to what's reported in out-of-body experiences - in other words, a feeling that "you" are now located somewhere *other than* just behind your eyeballs. It can also damage your ability to take the perspective of others (though, being quite autistic, I'm not so sure what losing that would be like to begin with!)
"or which doesn't result in an absurdly large number of persons occupying more-or-less the same space on the other."
Y'know, I've been increasingly wondering if this is such a strange idea. The notion that "one body = one self" is very much a Western one, descended from Plato & Aristotle. Many other cultures believed in multiple selves, or divided the soul into multiple parts. And there are those who have the experience of multiple selves within one body. Probably the most famous example of this is Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), where the various people within the body often cannot even communicate with each other or share memories. I've heard reports of people doubting the reality of their "headmates" only to suddenly awaken days later to handwritten poems from said headmates directly addressed to them.
However, that's just one, very dramatic manifestation of a more general phenomenon. There are plenty of "plurals" who report such experiences but do not have DID. Some of them have OSDD (Other Specified Dissociative Disorder), which more or less is a catch-all term for a Dissociative Condition that causes distress or dysfunction but doesn't meet enough of the specific criteria to fall under DID. Some feel no distress and don't have any dysfunction from their multiplicity, meaning it cannot be classified as a disorder according to the DSM-V. Interestingly, many such plurals report *not* having significant levels of amnesia or amnestic barriers, meaning that they *do* have access to each other's memories, though they often report feeling a sense of detachment from these - a kind of "I have this memory, but know that I was not its internal subject, it's more like watching a video recording of it" sensation. The human mind is fascinating, isn't it?
EXE,
DeleteI'm happy to grant to materialism pretty much all of the things you mentioned, at least properly qualified (e.g. if information is correlated with degrees of freedom in a system). Indeed, to the (very minimal) extent I understand quantum field theory, particulate matter is analyzed in terms of fields anyway. However one might describe or ultimately analyze the material world, though, as best as I can tell, a certain level of arbitrariness, indeterminacy, and flux characterizes such explanations. These things are what make identity conditions for persons like ourselves difficult to pin down.
As far as reductionism goes, I could cede consciousness as being an emergent property/process of our brain states (for the sake of argument), but that still wouldn't undermine my larger point, which is a mereological one. Do human beings, specifically, have a principle of unity over and above their constituent parts standing in various spacial relations? If not, then reductionism holds and the analysis of what we are presently and over time hinges upon those parts and their arrangements (with the problems I mentioned). If there is a principle of unity over and above those things, then that would lead us to a proper substance ontology, where Aristotelianism is, if not the leading option, at least a respectable possible account of things. But I wouldn't call Aristotelianism with a strong notion of substantial forms materialism.
As to your last paragraph, I don't entirely disagree. But I'd put forward my position not as a proof of the soul but as a critique of materialism and theories like it. It would take additional steps to arrive at a soul proper, though I think the jettisoning of materialism would already be a pretty substantive conclusion in its own right.
Re. your second post:
DeleteI'm not much enamored with conceptions of self-identity that put most of the weight on a person's phenomenology; it's a little too Cartesian for me. In this respect, I (and I think most Aristotelians) would identify the self or "me" not just with my interior life but also with my body as something essentially constitutive of who I am. This would be where Thomists tend to have certain similarities with animalism.
So I guess I would be at pains to distinguish my perceived self-identity from my proper metaphysical identity, where I take the latter to be a condition for any correct account of the former. Indeed, as you allude to, if we take our perceived self-identity to be a product of the brain in some way, then there has to be some thing or other with a brain which has these experiences and perceptions. In which case, that embodied creature who has both a body and a mind would be the person rather than one or the other of those constituents. If metaphysical self-identity never gets beyond our experience and phenomenology, then we are immediately stuck in idealism, and materialism is DOA.
As to whether multiple people can occupy the same space, the specific issue I had in mind had less to do with continuous or discontinuous psychological identity (as one might find in dissociative disorders) and more to do with material constitution. If I am to be identified with some specified set of particles, then it seems one could pick out that set of particles minus one or plus one, creating a different set. Does that new set also pick out a person, distinct from me, even though we overlap in all but one particle? And if that particle is excised from the whole does that person die? That seems counter-intuitive, and it would pretty much guarantee the impossibility of diachronic identity, since at least one member of that set will, inevitably, be separated from the rest. On the flip side, if there is only one person occupying the space I'm in, I don't see how we can non-arbitrarily specify what is included in me and what is not. My identity conditions would simply be stipulated, which, again, looks to be problematic.
So fascinating as the human mind is - and I do agree that it is wondrously mysterious and vexing at times - I don't know if that really gets to the heart of what I am trying to make sense of.
Hmm. Ultimately, personal identity is something that's hardly been "figured out", so it's not as if either of us is going to be able to definitively prove or disprove our positions here. I'd probably be less well-equipped for that in any case, fine questions of advanced philosophy seem to be more familiar to you than to I. I shan't attempt to go point-by-point on topics that I don't have a high-level understanding of.
DeleteBut when it comes down to it, I'm struggling to see *why* I ought to adopt your hylomorphic approach to the self as opposed to, I dunno, computationalism? Why *should* I view the self as a unified substance rather than a continuity of memories and dispositions, or a process? Why is your view *the best* explanation of reality? You say that "you're not enamored" with accounts of identity that rely on phenomenology, and that there must be a single, underlying metaphysical substance (the brain-having animal in question) to underlie the self. But I don't see why I ought to accept these attitudes myself. This seems like an enormously complicated question, and while you seem to have studied it more than me, I don't see why I ought to accept the solutions or assertions that *you* forward as opposed to simply saying that I don't know how the self works. Certainly, it seems like the vast majority of academic philosophers of mind don't agree with you, as hylomorphism is quite the minority view, despite some recent resurgences. Now, I'm not trying to make an appeal to popularity here, I'm simply pointing out that while you may well have this argument or that argument, your side doesn't seem to have been able to convince the vast majority of people who specialize in this topic. And given that philosophy isn't the kind of field where Balls and Strikes get called, and even the most outdated theories can be retooled in such a way as to technically avoid refutation, it ultimately comes down to which theory seems *best* as an explanation to us, and why it seems that way. I don't see a reason why I ought to subscribe to one specific, highly controversial view of the world and the self, given the fact that it seems to have been unable to make much headway among those educated in such topics.
Very interesting article, very informative. Nice to acknowledge than when a thinker writes a so great corpus them he is bound to have confusing remarks, expecially in a question he did not try to adress.
ReplyDeleteBut i gonna say the timming is good, for i was thinking today in questions than seems completely in topic! I apologise before writing because my thomism is rusty and mostly reduced to the Summa Theologica(on this particular subject).
Now, could we say on St. Thomas view than the diference between a human and a angelic intellect is accidental? Do God needs to create a human soul with a body, even if it ceases to be a second latter, or is a Cartesian Demon scenario metaphysically possible?
Prima facie these questions seems to be a solid "no" for the human form is the form of the body and Aquinas clearly denies than angels can have bodies exactly like we do.
But the period of death seems so mysterious. On death it seems than our souls take a completely diferent mode of thinking, which seems to leave traces of after the ressurrection of the body. It is not strange how the soul has two completely diferent modes of functioning?
We can also ask more questions, like: If a person is born brain death, could God just treat the intelect like a angelic one?
Of course, i understand than God treats nature with order. A soul has a body, it will function normally, a soul has not body, it will function like other disembodied intelects. But metaphysically how necessary is this union with matter?
Hey, Talmid.
DeleteEd addresses these questions in Immortal Souls, a bit more in Aquinas, and, if I remember correctly, you will also catch a glimpse of them in The Last Superstition. There are a couple of old posts in which he addresses them too.
But so as not to leave you hanging, let’s see if I remember something about those topics.
"Now, could we say on St. Thomas view than the diference between a human and a angelic intellect is accidental?"
No. Angels are essentially immaterial, while we are essentially corporeal and only partly incorporeal. A human being without a physical body is an incomplete human being.
"Do God needs to create a human soul with a body, even if it ceases to be a second latter, or is a Cartesian Demon scenario metaphysically possible?"
Not sure if I understand your question, but the human soul is the form of the living body (not just a body, but a living one), so the soul is a package deal with the body (parts not sold separately).
"But the period of death seems so mysterious. On death it seems than our souls take a completely diferent mode of thinking, which seems to leave traces of after the ressurrection of the body. It is not strange how the soul has two completely diferent modes of functioning?"
Ed answers this question in Immortal Souls too. The traces you are talking about are the fixity of the will that remains the same after the reunion with the body. Basically, the soul without the bodily senses works very much like an angel. An angel cannot repent because it has only intellect and will. We can repent because we have appetites that drive us away from or further into this or that action. When we die, we lose those, but the will and what we perceived as good in life remain.
And to be clear, the soul does not have two completely different modes of functioning. This is a misconception generated by the difficulty of understanding what really happens after death. We can say, though, that through divine intervention after death God aids us in some way, since our natural ways of understanding things have gone.
"We can also ask more questions, like: If a person is born brain death, could God just treat the intelect like a angelic one?"
“Born brain-dead” doesn’t make sense. If the body exhibits immanent causality, it is a living body. The fact that one of its parts is “dead” does not mean that the whole organism is gone. This error comes from naturalistic empirical considerations plus a misunderstanding of what a living thing is from the A-T perspective.
"But metaphysically how necessary is this union with matter?"
That is a question Aristotle himself asked long, long ago. The right way to understand this, or so I think, is to recognize that we are essentially material and immaterial. We are the middle-of-the-road kind of thing when compared to angels and lower (brute) animals.
Hope that helps, even if just a little.
Deus te abençoe, irmão!
@Vini Tadeo
DeleteHey man! Tudo bem com tu?
I see. What i was trying to get was: can God create a human person incomplete?
A person begins to exist at conception, so it has a connection with a little bit of matter at least for a second, even if she is destroyed completely after. But could God just create the soul disembodied?
The brain dead is just a thought experiment. I'am trying to think of a person who never had brain stimulum.
Think of Avicenna floating man but harder: there never was a body
Could God do that? Prima facie it seems like no, for the human soul is the form of a body and so needs to at least have a relation with a body.
E o Senhor Lhe abençoe também, irmão!
Oh, I see now.
DeleteI would say that God could not do that because it would imply a contradiction in the following sense: there seems to be no in-between between an angel and a human being. A human being has intellectual powers that are informed through the senses; an angel does not have sensory powers, but only intellectual and volitional ones (intellect and will), which were informed in the angel by God (Visão Beatífica) at the moment of the angel's creation.
If we take for granted that a human being is essentially both immaterial and material, and an angel essentially immaterial, there could be no disembodied soul (as a third case) because it would fall into the category of angel or disembodied human soul.
An angel has a soul, as I see it, in the following sense: through his intellect and will, at the moment of his creation, he chose God and, by doing so, perfected himself (acted immanently) because he made the right choice. The angel does not have a sensitive soul like us, but he has an “intellective soul,” for lack of a better word. Even though, from the perspective of an angel, there was no change involved, we could not deny that he acted according to his nature (perfected it by following God).
We, on the other hand, have a body (and, in a sense, are a body, by being constituted by one), but we also have the same immaterial powers of intellect and will. The difference is that we learn discursively, while the angel has this built in from the moment of its creation.
Now, said all that, I would affirm that there is no “third space” to fill. It seems these two kinds of beings (humans and angels) exhaust all the conceptual and possible space of beings of this kind. So I would say that the hypothesis of a floating man, in which there was never even a body to begin with, falls into the concept of an angel. But if we insist that this floating man has somekind of sensory power (sight, even without an eye, for example), then he is a human being with a kind of odd relation to his body parts (since he does need a physical eye to see the material world and be informed by it).
I don't know if you or anyone else will be convinced by this, but I gave it my best shot XD.
(Important addendum: I used the example of immanent causality applied to the intellect specifically because an angel does not have other examples of immanent causality when it comes to other physical things since he doesn't have a body but, like us, possesses intellect and will)
"Animalism" always struck me as like Eliminative Materialism in being an attempt to lean into the absurdities of materialism when these are pointed out. The debate isn't really my territory, but strikes me as the best the Corruptionist can do is to stick with a slightly different criteria of personhood.
ReplyDeleteWe always talk of Cartesianism, I wonder though what other forms of classical e.g. Platonic substance dualism* there are.
*e.g. because ironically substance dualism is quite compatible with the hylemorphic analysis of objects into matter and form just not with the thesis of the soul as the form of the body. Some of the schoolmen, arguably including Bonaventure, combined both the Aristotelian view of substance and substance dualism.
Interesting. So, if I'm understanding the basic issue correctly, the dispute is over the following:
ReplyDelete1. On A/T, everything is a composite of matter and substantial form
2. On A/T, Substantial forms cannot exist separate from matter which instantiates them, and the separation of the two destroys the form, producing new substantial forms (like the form of a corpse and whatever various elements make up the creature, this is the substantial change that Aquinas refers to as "Corruption").
3. The human soul is taken to be the form of the human person.
4. Naturally, this would imply that the human soul ceases to exist after death.
5. But the Catholic Church says the human soul survives death, thus Aquinas must find a way to harmonize this belief with his Aristotelianism.
It has always struck me that A/T's treatment of human souls seemed a bit...ad hoc? Not sure if that's the correct word, but there is this feeling of artificiality there, like belief in Christian-style postmortem survival is a square peg forced into a round hole out of necessity.
From what I can tell, Aristotle's own position was nuanced but closer to naturalism than it was to Christianity (as regards this specific topic). Aristotle's surviving texts are ambiguous enough that you can choose to interpret them as supporting either view if you really want to (and of course, Aquinas reads them as supporting a Christian concept). But it seems like the most natural reading of *De Anima* implies that, while the "mind"/"nous" (the part that performs immaterial intellection) might potentially be able to survive death, but that if it does so it completely lacks our personal identity (our memories, for instance). This would be incompatible with Christianity, since whatever survived, it would not be YOU in any meaningful sense.
@EXE: yes, I have long thought that for both Plato and Aristotle, if the operations of nous are "set over" intelligibles and not over sensibles, then the content of one soul's nous will approach identity with the content of another soul's nous. I think this leads to the problems about the Active Intellect post Averroes.
DeleteYour first point is wrong, Exe. On A/T, angels are not a composite of matter and substantial form. Neither are propositions or numbers, for example.
DeleteAnon,
DeleteHuh, OK, a few holes in my knowledge. Numbers and propositions, well, OK, that's a whole other kettle of fish. But I don't think we need to worry about angels messing up our worldviews anytime soon :p
EXE
DeletePart 1/2
Well the question in dispute is more about if the person survives after death or not. Both corruptionists and survivalists agree that the human soul survives; the only question is if it's to be identified with the person or not after death.
Aside from that, your understanding is fine, but there are some errors that I think are causing you to draw some unwarranted conclusions.
1. On A/T everything isn't necessarily a composite of matter and substantial form. While this is true for material substances it isn't true for immaterial substances like angels. On page 163 of Feser's Scholastic Metaphysics he makes this point explicitly, "However, just as act can exist without potency even if potency cannot exist without act, so too can some forms exist without matter even though matter can never exist without form. For the scholastic the intellect is essentially immaterial [...] A purely intellectual substance--which is what an angel is on the Scholastic view--would have a form of a sort, but without matter."
2. As stated above some substantial forms can exist without matter.
3. True
4-5. No, since the human form has immaterial operations while the material aspects of a human "drop out," so to speak, the immaterial parts still function, albeit in an incomplete way. It's similar (in a loose way) to how the other operations of your body can still continue even if parts of you were cut off and you lost their operations (you were blinded or your tongue was cut out or something). What's lost are the material aspects of the human person, but since Thomists would say that the soul is immaterial, that part isn't lost and can continue onward.
Thomists would say that they have good reason to believe that part of the human person is immaterial, and given that some substantial forms can exist without matter, good reason to believe that at least part of the human person continues onward after death. For a brief overview of those arguments that the intellect is immaterial, you can read Feser's "Some brief arguments for dualism, Part IV" or "Revisiting Ross on the immateriality of thought". A fuller account could be found in his essay "Kripke, Ross, and the Immaterial Aspects of Thought" and of course Feser goes into much more detail on all aspects of the human intellect in Immortal Souls. The point harped on has mainly to do with the indeterminacy of matter versus the determinacy of thought.
Part 2/2
DeleteNow, to your worry that the move is an ad hoc decision prompted by the Catholic Church's dogma, Feser has addressed that point almost exactly; see his exchange with Vallicella entitled "Vallicella on hylemorphic dualism" Parts 1-3 on this blog. A brief summary would be something like this. There are good arguments for hylemorphism and good arguments for dualism. As a result it is natural for a person who believes in both to think that they can be married to one another. This intuition is bolstered with the Scholastic thesis that action follows being; a substantial form which has immaterial actions should have an existence not dependent upon matter.
This doesn’t mean that the Scholastics are right that it can be made coherent, of course, but it's quite different from saying that the position is, in Feser's paraphrase of Vallicella's charge, "a piece of Christian apologetics with no independent philosophical rationale."
In the Vallicella articles I pointed to, he goes a little into the interpretation of Aristotle’s views and if they entail specifically the conception Aquinas has in mind, but I think it goes without saying that even if Aristotle is an Averroist rather than a Thomist, that has no bearing on whether Aquinas, Feser, or Toner is correct or not. Additionally, I will point out that you also grant that Aristotle's views are ambiguous enough to allow for a reading closer to Aquinas’s, and if that's the case why think that the driving factor behind interpreting it in a way that happens to align with Church teaching is something that is to be considered a bit ad hoc or an instance of motivated reasoning? After all Aquinas does argue for it and the principle of charity demands for a face value read of his arguments.
Lastly, to identify the souls post mortem, Thomists would point to their relation to the particular body they once informed. Additionally the intellectual memory is retained in the soul even as the sense memory is suspended.
Aquinas never had much of a problem with disagreeing with his sources if they were talking about matters were he could do it.
DeleteHis treatises on the mind, God, virtues, escathology etc were informed by Aristotle but he did review the philosopher arguments for his views against christian orthodoxy and found they wanting, just like he did with other thinkers.
Perhaps the social situation, Aristotle was a novelty view with suspcion, pushed him to defend more the thinker as being read in a orthodox way, but he did argue against the averroists just like any thinker would.
I'm a little surprised that everyone is bringing up angels and not y'know, Pure Actuality, which is obviously not 'a composite of matter and substantial form '.
DeleteBerryReserve,
DeleteOK, corrections accepted, though admittedly, accepting these has somewhat degraded my opinion of Thomism (any philosophy that suggests that demons really exist gets an automatic side-eye from me).
Secondly, while I'm well aware that you don't view reality in the standard Cartesian manner, it seems to me that, since you view the intellect as immaterial, you still suffer from a variant of the Interaction Problem, even if you don't view the mind as a completely separate substance. If the mind is immaterial, but relies on "phantoms" produced by the very-material senses, how does *that* work? How does the immaterial intellect move the material body to feel or do things? It's not *the same* as the Cartesian version of this problem, but at the end of the day you do still think that an immaterial mind actually effects change in the material world.
Also, upon further investigation, it seems like I'm not alone in my initial thought that Thomist treatment of the human soul is ad hoc. Marcus Shane Otte has also pointed out that:
"An additional weakness of Thomist replies to the mind–body problem in general is that they tend to treat the soul–body relation as merely another instance of the form–matter relation, and the soul’s rational powers as mere instances of natural powers belonging to a substance. But the human soul and its faculties depart from the usual rules one might expect of forms, substances, and powers in Aquinas’ account of them. Only the human being is a composite substance with a form that is subsistent. Only the human being is a material substance with some powers that completely transcend its matter."
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/new-blackfriars/article/thomist-anthropology-and-the-problem-of-causal-interface/50DB8C2BBBDCB77F99FFE901BA77B542
Or to put that last point in other words; soul/body relations are viewed as merely one more example of form/matter relations. But *unlike* everything else in reality, the human person's form is viewed as subsistent, not going out of existence upon its separation from matter. Similarly, in no other substance or creature does Aquinas suggest that its form grants it abilities beyond what is possible for its matter. So, to put it another way; humans are treated as being merely one more example of form/matter dualism, and yet dramatically depart from the rules that govern every *other* case of form/matter dualism in reality.
2/2
DeleteBerry,
This strikes me as altogether *too* charitable. Aquinas was a Catholic cleric, living in a time when openly expressing any heterodox opinions could get you into severe trouble. Indeed, even the integration of Aristotle that he *did* do got him into significant trouble, accused of dangerous thinking. It is not at all unreasonable to assume that Aquinas was accommodating his beliefs to the strict guardrails of Catholic doctrine; indeed it would have been highly dangerous for him NOT to do so. He may have had a degree of freedom, but it was the same kind of freedom that a prisoner in an open-air camp watched by sniper towers has. Given this, it is not at all unfair to claim that an improbable-but-possible reading of Aristotle in a direction more consistent with Catholic faith is likely the result of an ulterior motive. This doesn't necessarily even have to imply that he was forced to do so, exactly - it might just have been that, being ideologically committed to the truth of Catholicism, he was personally unwilling to take Aristotle at face value and distorted his words in order to fit Catholic doctrine better.
I feel like there’s an aspect of individuation that could be added to this discussion. The comparison to angelic intellects in the post-mortem state makes sense, but I think the analogy tends to miss that humans are all the same species even after death. The soul and body during life are an individual person. Without affirming some form of lasting substantial person that is marked by the individuation of his particular soul and body, the post-mortem state would devolve into a single human form, losing all persons in the process as the matter of the body is lost as a principle of marking out instances of people.
ReplyDeleteI know this is only tangentially relevant, but if you'll permit me a momentary diversion, I'd just like to point out that, in some cultures, this *is* more or less what's believed to happen. In many Sub-Saharan African cultures, the self is viewed as fundamentally relational - your relationships "are" a significant part of you, rather than simply separate things that the sovereign, independent "You" happens to possess. This remains true in Death, but only those dead whose names are remembered by the living and called upon in rites retain personal identity. Once the deceased's name passes from living memory, once they are no longer invoked, no longer have any relationships with living people, their individuality dissolves into the collective identity of "The Ancestors". Actually, you might be interested to learn that these different concepts of self, life, and afterlife have poses serious challenges to Christian orthodoxy. Actually, I have a very interesting quote here:
Delete"The Cameroonian novelist and theologian Nsanda Eba Jumbam (1980, p. 118) poignantly illustrates this tension in his narrative of Yaya, a widow being urged to accept Christian baptism. When told that in the afterlife there is no family or marriage, Yaya protests, “How does one not need their beloved ones? Is God a source of unity or of division? I cannot understand this.” Her resistance reflects an African philosophical concern: the posthumous social continuity of the self, not merely one’s reconciliation with a transcendent deity. In African thought, to die is not to dissolve into abstraction, but to assume a new relational identity within the spiritual ecosystem of the community."
https://ojs.globalmissiology.org/index.php/english/article/view/3041/7623
(NB: I've been having some difficulty verifying exactly what author or book this quote comes from, but if I'm wrong, then it's because global missiology is wrong :p)
I think the eternal ambiguity over the use of the word “self” might be making itself felt in this debate. I would add that to participate in the Beatific Vision is to arguably the ultimate act of realising the self as something in relation to others since one participates in the experience of God’s creative activity and love for Creation.
Delete@EXE
DeleteI could not help but think of Coco XD
Interesting. Here there are people from religions descendent from the pratices of the slave populations than came from places like Nigeria(i know mostly the Yorubas) and from what i understood from these people ancestral worship was very important. Reading their myths and talking with the followers of the religion today it seems than the "gods"* were human once but got divinized.
Other death people seemed to not disappear but their existence on the other world does not appear that important, except exactly by this conection by ancestral worship and by the possibility than parts of the soul could come back on the family(but this does not seems psrt of the traditions here).
We do see how important this conection with the living is on diferent traditions like Ancient China, were being divinized can make a part of Heaven Burocracy, and Mesopotania, were presents from the living could help me cope with the bad afterlife. Social relations truly constituted people back them.
*they are actually monotheists but God is mostly doing His thing, you know the drill
I knew Patrick Toner's father, James Toner, who once taught at the Air War College, and is now a deacon.
ReplyDeletehttps://crisismagazine.com/author/james-toner
Hello, I was just skimming over this article and I was curious if you have ever heard of Dr. Douglass Flippen, he's a professor at the college I go to. I had him for ancient Greek philosophy and he would do something very similar with what you do with Aquinas by having commentary on it and presenting arguments. I have to admit although I did not read through all of it. Nonetheless I am very much impressed.
ReplyDeleteI mentioned this as part of an earlier comment, but I do think it's worth mentioning that all of this discussion seems to be taking place in an environment that presumes a very Western, Greek philosophy-focused view of the self and the human person. I guess to some degree that's to be expected of Catholicism, but beware of the epistemic injustice that can very easily come from blind adherence to tradition. If, say, a Sub-Saharan African imagines the human self as fundamentally defined by relationships with others rather than purely by intellectual powers, are you going to tell him that he is wrong simply because he does not follow the anthropology of Aristotle? If you try to tell people that their ancient cultural traditions, anthropologies, and epistemologies are all foolish and worthless because Capital-T Tradition says so, and that he must instead submit to your community's way o doing things or be dismissed, you're just becoming an ideological colonizer. I hope you would not want this.
ReplyDelete"Beware of the epistemic injustice that can very easily come from blind adherence to tradition."
DeleteI am sorry EXE , but this statement is completely ignorant of the premise of this entire discussion, that is the pursuit of truth, No one over here is claiming that they have to adhere to the system just because it is tradition.
In fact in this very post, Prof to a certain extent is taking on the traditional corruptionist interpretation of Aquinas' writing because he thinks if that is indeed Aquinas's view then Aquinas was wrong on this.
And this is also what Prof wrote, at the beginning of his book
"The approach of this book is much more consistently Aristotelian-Thomistic. Having said that, though Aristotle and St. Thomas are by far the greatest influences on my own views, this book is not concerned with exegesis of their work. The claims and arguments I defend in this book are mine, and not always necessarily theirs. If, on some topics, I say something that sounds very much like what they say, that is because I think they were right about it. If, on other topics, I say something that is different from anything they say, or even conflicts with what they say, that is because I think my approach is better. Like other Thomists, I am often accused of following Aquinas too closely, but also of not following him closely enough. In reality, I try only ever to follow an argument wherever it leads. "
I think it's really disingenuous for you to flimg such accusations. Feel free to critic , comment , analyse, discuss and so many people over here do engage with you in good will. So why the ad hominem attack, Most adeherents of the AT view take it to be the truth on the grounds of the other views being incoherent and Prof's book includes critiques of those other views, a defense of the AT view and a response to its critics.
That is how serious intellectual conversations are had,
And just as an indicator, this is the review of Dr Howard Robinson, who is regarded as one of the most influential and maverick philosophers of mind and mind you (pun intended), He doesn't follow AT philosophy,
"Edward Feser's book is a Summa of the nature of the human person: it is, therefore, both a rather long – but brilliant – monograph, and a valuable work for consultation. Each of the human faculties discussed is treated comprehensively, with a broad range of theories considered for and against, and, although Feser's conclusions are firmly Thomistic, one can derive great benefit from his discussions even if one is not a convinced hylomorphist. Every philosopher of mind would benefit from having this book within easy reach."
Howard Robinson, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, Central European University
It feels like whenever you don't have a counter argument to the views put forth, you resort to questioning the motivations of the person.
That is a bit disappointing since I do enjoy our conversations when they are cordial and focused on the premises. You can do much better then this , brother.
Cheers
Why would I care what some Bantu thinks?
Delete«Are you being eurocentric?»
DeleteYes, because Catholicism, and by extension European Tradition, is the only correct worldview as they were the people blessed by God to carry on the New Covenant and evangelise the world. All other worldviews are, in their essence, invalid.
A non-Catholic sub-Saharan's opinion in the matter is less than irrelevant.
Norm,
DeleteI was trying to broaden you folks' horizons, if only a little bit. I was also trying to make you aware of the myopia that can come from failing to consider other people's viewpoints. And yes, Eurocentrism is one kind of myopia. This wasn't meant to be some formal argument against Aristotelianism, all it was meant to do was be a splash of cold water in the face and a call to some epistemic humility. Unfortunately, the responses I've gotten from everyone *except* you validate my initial concerns, because they're showing some *very* ugly attitudes.
Terilien
What, did the filter not let you use the N-word?
Egil
OK. Prove it. Prove that God exists and did all these things. Do it with certainty, or at least as much certainty as historians would demand for any other thing. No, relying on highly dubious and controversial metaphysics is not good enough. Prove that CATHOLICISM is true, specifically. If you're going to invalidate literally every other worldview other than your own, then you had BEST be able to carry that burden of proof. So, pony up, Pope boy.
@Terilien
Delete@Egil
Come on, guys, we can make the point better.
@EXE
What are the arguments for this african view?
And which african, by the way?
I'am not asking rethorically, what do you have than can be interesting?
EXE
DeleteI don't grant the euro centricism thing for the reasons that I mentioned above, we are genuinely seeking truth
"Unfortunately, the responses I've gotten from everyone *except* you validate my initial concerns, because they're showing some *very* ugly attitudes."
Point granted, Those comments really undermined my comment.
"because __________, and by extension __________ Tradition, is the only correct worldview as they were the people blessed by God to carry on the New Covenant and evangelise the world. All other worldviews are, in their essence, invalid."
DeleteAdherents of various religions and traditions may well want to propose their own candidates to fill in the blanks above, e.g. Muslims, Mormons, et al. In order to prove that Roman Catholicism is the only candidate that satisfies candidate conditions you also need to prove that no other religion or system of thought does so. Appeals to an RC conception of Covenant, by the way, will probably be question-begging.
Lots of religions boast miracles and fulfilled prophecies.
Talmid,
DeleteWell, since you at least seem honest, I'll respond to you. I have an issue with this framing. Now I'm portrayed as having to "argue for" a specific philosophical worldview, as if I had proposed to refute Aristotle and had a burden of proof to meet. My actual aim was simply to propose some epistemic humility - in other words, to reconsider one's foundations rather than taking them for granted. Do you apply the same skepticism to Aristotle and Aquinas that you do to Confucius, Laozi, Michael Onyebuchi Eze, Desmond Tutu, and so on? Quite literally all I have done is to urge you to try and consider other viewpoints. After all, does it really seem likely to you that the God of all peoples would only make the truth known to the Ancient Greeks? Unfortunately, it seems like a disappointing number of Catholics view the ability to view themselves as better than people of other cultures as *part of the appeal* of being Catholic.
As regards actual worldviews that you might want to look into, probably the most interesting as regards personhood is the Ubuntu concept, which has been developed extensively by numerous philosophers. I admit that I, personally, am not super well versed in it, but that's a good starting point for any honest investigation of non-European anthropologies.
Guys, with all due respect, you're wasting your time on EXE and looking like suckers for it.
DeleteHe's not after the truth or anything that makes sense. He's just playing the same deceitful mind games he always does. He posts this stuff knowing people will take the bait, then acts clueless, twists your words, deliberately misreads everything, and tries to keep everyone confused. He's not some serious guy looking for answers; he's a fraud. He's here trying to mess up the whole point of the blog, hoping he can pull in some uninformed bystander along the way.
If dealing with him before hasn't already shown you that, just read his comments on this thread. He's trying to chip away at what we believe, not protect anybody. First he goes after AT metaphysics, then suddenly acts like he's worried about African people's beliefs, only to turn right back around and attack us again, demanding we "prove" our worldview. The cycle never ends.
You don't argue with people like this. You ignore them. He's made it clear over and over that he's not here in good faith. He's not trying to "broaden horizons." He's here because he's got a grudge against Ed and everything he stands for; he said it himself in an earlier blog post. Stop being dumb and just ignore this clown.
I'll note that sto is trying to steer the conversation away from anything I actually said and instead towards trying to discredit my motives and character. He's making an appeal to tribalism, too - I'm apparently here to "chip away at [the community's/"our"] beliefs". I'm being framed as a dangerous, subversive Outsider whom the Goodly Community ought to reject because of their Devilish Wickedness.
DeleteAs to the actual accusations:
-I was, genuinely, interested in and critical of AT metaphysics. That's why I asked those questions.
-The point about Eurocentrism and non-European philosophies was a separate concern that I thought of independently. It wasn't intended to be a big deal; the only reason why it's developed this far is because people apparently had an unexpectedly strong reaction to it.
-I didn't demand anyone prove their worldview until *after* Egil positively asserted that the Catholic worldview was *true*. Egil made positive claims about the truthfulness of Catholicism, and by extension the "European worldview", to the exclusion of all others. At that point, I think I am fully entitled to demand proof. Nobody else is required to prove anything.
"to reconsider one's foundations rather than taking them for granted."
DeleteTo respond to objections to your world view is precisely to do the opposite of taking one's view for granted.
Also EXE
Have you considered the possibility that two opposite things cannot be true at the same time ?
Or have you considered that , a lot of us have given thoughts to different world views, found some fault with their premises and hence rejected it. Now if defenders of those views can answer the objections, fair and good, if the objection is met properly, but if the objection is not met, obviously you will not accept that view.
You seem to make it seem like there is a bargainsale of views out there and all of them can be true at the same time, which is just false.
@ stating the obvious
Hi, Barring a couple of occasions, I have found EXE willing to engage a meaningful exchange of views, at times imo mainly when it seems like his objections are being reasonably met, or it turns out he had misunderstood the premise, he seems to deflect but to be honest, I see him as someone who may eventually come around, even if you look at his responses here, his internal monologue strikes me as something like this
" Woah, some of the people over here are making really good arguments and I find myself agreeing with them logically, but I don't want to , so there must be something they are missing, maybe they haven't considered everything yet, maybe they haven't considered all these other views" or atleast something like that.
That strikes as someone we ought to pray for and whenever he has any genuine question, it would be worth responding in charity to the person.
I am sure he would be a great person to have coffee with and talk about other stuff.
Prof. You’re argument inspired by Ross’ Immaterial Aspects is damaging to the whole animalism enterprise, even on the assumption of physicalism. Because you have demonstrated an infinite number of “arithmetics” are equally useful for all practical purposes. Which means natural selection is unable to explain why we use the arithmetic we do out of the infinite number of choices. Some other evolutionary explanation is required. It’s a similar to a Chomsky argument he made that human language is more beautiful than useful so natural selection is of little explanatory power. Which implies we are not an animal like any other, there is a fundamental break between us and the rest of the animal kingdom even a naturalist or physicalist can’t evade.
ReplyDeleteEd,
ReplyDeleteI find it puzzling that you find it puzzling that I'm not puzzled! :) Sadly I can't really write up any kind of substantive response to this right now, but I really appreciate the post. Lots to talk about someday. I do agree that the disembodied soul is an incomplete substance--I just insist that persons are, as St. Thomas insists, complete substances. Hope I'll see you in DC next month! If not, maybe next year in LA.
Hey Patrick! Thanks for popping in (and for your review!). Yes, I look forward to chatting next month and/or next year.
DeleteAlways great to see great intellects interact
Delete