tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post8905238351722963888..comments2024-03-29T05:55:32.588-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Nyāya arguments for a First CauseEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64493285658115341152015-03-09T17:17:53.548-07:002015-03-09T17:17:53.548-07:00And here's another example of mistaking a rati...And here's another example of mistaking a rational distinction for a real one. I can understand God under the attribute "just". I can also understand him under the attribute "merciful". That these are understood <i>in my mind</i> distinctly does not allow me to conclude that IN GOD they are really distinct aspects of God. That would be a mistake. Understanding them distinctly is what happens in MY mind, not what is present in God. Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-19331551938968699612015-03-09T17:11:19.216-07:002015-03-09T17:11:19.216-07:00For the two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom are...<i>For the two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom are not ACTUALLY in the water molecule, they are only POTENTIALLY there, and so only exist notionally in the mind, as ACTUAL hydrogen and water atoms.</i> <br /><br />The oxygen and hydrogen do not exist "only potentially". "Virtually" is a greater reality than potency. For example, mastery of geometry, in the mathematician while he is thinking of something other than geometry, is a reality that is greater than mere potency. The first-year student has <i>potency</i> to the knowledge, but he has not anything like the knowledge in act. The mathematician ACTUALLY thinking geometry is more in act than the mathematician sleeping - he is fully in act as regards geometry. But the mathematician sleeping is much more "in act" regards the knowing of geometry than the first-year student. Thus, even while sleeping, his knowledge is virtual, and this is a more complete reality than that of mere potential. He has the <i>power</i> to reduce the possible to the actual readily, easily, at any moment. He has the virtue of knowing geometry in act even when he is not thinking of geometry. Thus "virtual" knowledge - it sits as a power to the full act, which is <i>in media res</i>, between mere potency and full act. <br /><br />In the water molecule, the hydrogen and the oxygen are not <i>merely</i> potential. There is a kind of reality to them. Not the full reality that is true of the water, no, (there is not the substantial reality of hydrogen), but they much more than the mere potency "to be hydrogen". The water is ACTUALLY water due to the "virtue" of the hydrogen and oxygen operating - <b>under the mode of parts</b> - in making the chemical bonds do the things that are typical of water. Thus they are REAL PARTS of water, and they are not present merely as potential but virtually. Their presence is not merely in the mind, it is not merely attributed from the outside, it is there in the water making the water to be water. (If their presence were of the mind, then it would be possible to mentally assign 3 hydrogen and 1 oxygen "parts" to the water - like I can assign a partition of the chocolate bar into thirds or fourths. The fact that trying this with water is a MISTAKE shows that the parts are really in the water, not notional parts). Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-59637946962869696222015-03-08T12:38:46.246-07:002015-03-08T12:38:46.246-07:00@ Tony
"My parts not only are not the same s...@ Tony<br /><br />"My parts not only are not the same size as her parts, but my parts cannot ACTUALLY BE real thirds while hers are actual fourths and be ACTUAL partitions of the bar - the two divisions cannot be actually real in the chocolate bar at the same time."<br /><br />And I see no reason why either me or Timocrates need disagree with that, certainly I accept it. That is why in my original post I was very careful to suggest that the sense of the word “parts” I was getting at was analogous to the sense of the word “parts” that one uses in the case of virtual parts, which you had alluded to in your original post.<br /><br />And given the fact that you would admit that, say, hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms are virtual parts of a water molecule, I cannot see a way for you to use the argument against extension implying compositeness without also proving the same about virtual parts. For the two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom are not ACTUALLY in the water molecule, they are only POTENTIALLY there, and so only exist notionally in the mind, as ACTUAL hydrogen and water atoms.<br /><br />So it seems that you’re expressing the division between real and notional reality a little bit too strongly, or at least making a bit too much of the consequences of this distinction; you yourself say that the notional reality of the division is at least BASED in the reality of the extension. While “the right side” and “the left side” of a cube may not, and don’t, exist in reality full-stop, they at least seem to be parts in a similar sense to the way that virtual parts are parts of their wholes, and would not that be enough to show that these parts would entail a similar sort of composition? And thus, would not extension imply some sort of composition, even if this composition were not as strong as say, the composition of a house or a piece of wood?Timotheoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09848027239405239382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-18847545220874140482015-03-08T05:05:03.729-07:002015-03-08T05:05:03.729-07:00Whatever theory of atom you are working with, if i...Whatever theory of atom you are working with, if it is one where "one particle becomes two", that's not Nyāya's concept of "atom". (Even if Nyāya's concept is wrong). And if there is a physical, eternally unchangeable "atom" with size, when it undergoes <i>composition</i> with other such atoms to become part of something larger, the atom itself isn't undergoing the kind of transformation as when an electron and positron annihilate to give up three photons, where the electron itself is (obviously) no longer its immutable eternal self. <br /><br /><i>Sounds like a slippery slope to me. What the mind is picking out of the cube is definitely really there and present.</i> <br /><br />You are failing to come to grips with the actual sense of <i>rational</i> (or notional) distinction vs <i>real</i> distinction. Here's an example of a distinction of the mind rather than of the thing itself: I can look at a chocolate bar and mentally divide it into 3 parts. My wife can mentally divide it into 4 parts. My parts not only are not the same size as her parts, but my parts cannot ACTUALLY BE real thirds while hers are actual fourths and be ACTUAL partitions of the bar - the two divisions cannot be actually real in the chocolate bar at the same time. Either one could be realized, so there is a potential, and THAT POTENTIAL rests on a reality - the real extendedness of the bar. The mind sees the reality, and apprehends its potential, to impose <i>a way of looking</i> at the bar _as if_ it were in thirds. But if I were to actually impose on the bar an actual separation of it into thirds, that would preclude an actual division of it into fourths. (Yes, one could go about dividing each of the actual third-pieces into fourths so that a NEW aggregation of the parts could <i>represent</i> or be equal in weight to fourths of the original bar, but they would no longer be fourths of the ORIGINAL bar, they would be actual fourths of the pieces.) The notional relation "thirds" is certainly BASED on the reality that is the original bar, (you could not discern the relation "thirds" about the concept "funny") but it is a notional position that exists not in the bar but in the mind. Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-28999393047122903112015-03-08T01:06:57.037-08:002015-03-08T01:06:57.037-08:00Another way of looking at the question of the divi...Another way of looking at the question of the divisibility of fundamental particles is to consider what happens when the particle undergoes a transformation by interaction with another particle. <br /><br />At some point in time two particles become one, or one particle becomes two, or two particles become many, as when an electron and positron annihilate to give up to three photons. So nature itself is enforcing a division.<br /><br />Is it possible to conceive of any kind of transformation that does not imply divisibility?seanrobsvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01135048988031819619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-18250808760502293342015-03-07T15:28:25.887-08:002015-03-07T15:28:25.887-08:00@ Tony,
" That is, the partition is solely i...@ Tony,<br /><br /><i>" That is, the partition is solely in the mind of the beholder, not in the thing."</i><br /><br />Sounds like a slippery slope to me. What the mind is picking out of the cube is definitely really there and present. And I can't think of any actual <i>cube</i> that wouldn't have such parts, though to be sure the perspective would probably just have to be stated. <br /><br />But why, for instance, is the left or right half of the cube any less real than, say, its angles? I mean in geometry you might ask what the angles on the left side of a square will necessarily be. <br /><br />Also, is the perspective also unreal? That would also seem problematic. It is meaningful when somebody, e.g., tells me to look or move to my left? Indeed, I would simply be wrong were I rather to look or move to my right.<br /><br />Is the mind making a division? Yes. Is that division totally unreal? I don't believe so. I think what seems to be the trouble is a kind of potential reification where in the case of beholding the cube the division in the mind is made as if physically being divided, such that you no longer have or are considering a part of the cube but something besides. <br /><br />Again. For video game lovers it would certainly not be clear how you would otherwise describe a division on the television screen to facilitate two users playing on the same console and television, usually between the upper and lower halves of the screen. And one hardly needs to qualify perspective in that case. <br /><br />Again. If you were to ask me to paint the left half of a given, actual cube red and the right half blue, does not that necessarily imply the reality of the parts?Timocrateshttp://americamagazine.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46455744202607495032015-03-07T13:19:17.262-08:002015-03-07T13:19:17.262-08:00Timotheos, I wish you would let Sean answer for hi...Timotheos, I wish you would let Sean answer for himself. For, I don't think your answer deals with his point, not the way he was making it. <br /><br /><i>And this is enough to show that anything extended would admit of some sort of metaphysical composition, and thus, that there cannot be any “indivisible atoms”</i> <br /><br />As an Aristotelian, I of course accept that any physical being that is extended admits of metaphysical composition. This could be the <i>essence and existence</i> composition (which material things share with angels), or the form and matter composition, which all material things have. <br /><br />However, it does not follow that all things composed of form and matter are dividable in the sense _Sean_ was indicating. <br /><br /><i>then it would have no top and bottom parts, side parts, or back and front parts (think of them as hemispheres of a spherical particle). In other words, it would be an infinitely small mathematical point, and an infinite number of them could fit into an infinitely small space. </i> <br /><br />He is getting at a particular problem: the kinds of atoms he thinks are implied are objects that would THEREFORE HAVE NO SIZE. It does not resolve this concern with a form-and-matter object that, because it has form and matter is metaphysically decomposable into its constituent form and its matter, if it has no size, such as a point-source material object. (Yes, I realize there are potential problems with such an object. The fact that there may be arguments to show that such an object is also metaphysically impossible is SEPARATE from whether it is <i>from the first</i> seen to resolve the problem he is pointing to, its smallness.) <br /><br />While as an Aristotelian I doubt the ultimate success of a theory of atoms that have positive size and that are indivisible physically or metaphysically, that too is not the point. The question is whether within Nyāya's thesis, is it sufficient to represent the "atom" as being a "pudding all the way through" unit with size that cannot even theoretically have virtual parts and cannot be physically divided? And the answer seems to be yes. If that theory presents problems with Nyāya's ultimate correctness, I'm fine with that, too. I was not suggesting Nyāya is right, only that it isn't wrong for the specific problem Sean was indicating. <br /><br /><i>I see no reason to suppose that Seanrobsville needs anything stronger than the claim that, say, the left half of a cube and the right half of a cube are virtual parts of the whole thing,</i> <br /><br />Well, the words could be said, but that doesn't make them intelligible. The so-called "parts" you thus identify are "left and "right" to you, but to me they are "right" and "left". That is, the <i>partition</i> is solely in the mind of the beholder, not in the thing. If it is a strictly notional partition, without reflecting any real distinction in the thing itself, then then there is indeed a question whether this represents "divisible" in the necessary sense to bring down the Nyāya argument as posed. I don't think so. Ed's points about metaphysical composition do the job, but that's a different sense of divisible. Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-79076483107068422492015-03-07T08:57:17.484-08:002015-03-07T08:57:17.484-08:00So...I am curious...does Nyaya philosophy draw the...So...I am curious...does Nyaya philosophy draw the link between this philosophy and their conceptions of Deity? Does it have affiliations to either monist Hinduism or monotheistic Hinduism?<br /><br />Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-72777288590044335832015-03-06T18:08:56.827-08:002015-03-06T18:08:56.827-08:00The importance of atoms for scientists is not the ...The importance of atoms for scientists is not the question of their 'materiality', but conceptual. Ultimately, the 'atoms' of science (physical units of any kind) are just points of force.<br /><br />So, lets not waste our time too much on what the 'science-guys' say if their intellectual standpoint just amounts to sheer conventionalism. Philosophy first!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-88127251112202899262015-03-06T17:45:08.429-08:002015-03-06T17:45:08.429-08:00Conrad,
Natural theology has no limits. Likewise,...Conrad,<br /><br />Natural theology has no limits. Likewise, God's providence is held to be NATURAL and supernatural, so it is NOT a question of historico-cultural conditions when dealing with diverse metaphysical perspectives via natural reason. <br /><br />Also, the difference between some Jesuit's understanding of 'altruism' and that of M. Dawkins is, from the highest perspective, only a question of reason and requires no consideration of superficial conditions. <br /><br />Your mode of thinking ultimately leads to historicism and certain late modern/postmodern trends in understanding subjects. 'Cultural context' and such similar notions are of second order importance when considering the projects of natural theology/metaphysics and the reality of natural providence (including all of its implications). This is of course the common argument against metaphysics as well; that it is 'ahistorical'. But, I suggest thinking on the matter and disregarding the more popular modes of chatter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-49419196665283733672015-03-06T13:51:44.813-08:002015-03-06T13:51:44.813-08:00@ Tony
I think you might have missed the point of...@ Tony<br /><br />I think you might have missed the point of Seanrobsville’s argument. It doesn't seem that he is so much concerned with proving that there cannot be an indivisible atom, taken in the sense that one cannot <i>physically</i> divide an atom into smaller parts, but that there cannot be such an atom that is <i>metaphysically</i> indivisible, i.e. that is non-composite.<br /><br />You yourself have already admitted that a molecule is composite in the sense of having the virtual parts of a carbon part and an oxygen part; I see no reason to suppose that Seanrobsville needs anything stronger than the claim that, say, the left half of a cube and the right half of a cube are virtual parts of the whole thing, even if there cannot in actuality be a “left half of a cube” and a “right half of a cube” (this is all analogous to the composition of form and prime matter; even though prime matter cannot actually exist divided from form, it still is in some sense a “part” of the thing).<br /><br />And this is enough to show that anything extended would admit of some sort of metaphysical composition, and thus, that there cannot be any “indivisible atoms” that are not the effect of some cause, since they admit of a sort of composition, and all composites require a cause. And thus we refute Nyāya.<br /><br />Of course, none of this shows that everything extended can be dissolved into physical parts, i.e. that one can chop an thing in half, getting two halves each half the width of the whole, ad infinitum. And if that is the sense that you took Seanrobsville’s argument, then I agree he’s got more work to do, but I don’t see a good reason to think he did, and certainly he doesn't need any claim that strong to show that Nyāya-style atoms are impossible.Timotheoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09848027239405239382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-32086124859434524292015-03-06T12:19:45.820-08:002015-03-06T12:19:45.820-08:00Lol whoops. Second guessed myself! I was right the...Lol whoops. Second guessed myself! I was right the first time. Fatigue is taking its toll I think.Timocrateshttp://americamagazine.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-65774988176820600622015-03-06T12:18:31.116-08:002015-03-06T12:18:31.116-08:00Sorry in my above post in the last paragraph:
&qu...Sorry in my above post in the last paragraph:<br /><br /><i>"If the mind had to keep asking "what is..?" ad infinitum we could never really know anything, in the <b>latter</b> case; and in the order of causation, "</i><br /><br />"latter" should be "former".Timocrateshttp://americamagazine.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-91018719953283128312015-03-06T12:00:38.453-08:002015-03-06T12:00:38.453-08:00@ curio
"are atoms substances?"
They d...@ curio<br /><br /><i>"are atoms substances?"</i><br /><br />They definitely are for the atomist; and if not the atoms then at least their necessary parts (electrons, protons/quarks, neutrons).<br /><br />The concept of substance in philosophy is meant to be the ground of being or reality, the ultimate subject of reality. Substance is that which most is or is that which just is. Substances are thus the causes of everything else.<br /><br />For common sense, substance answers a the question of <i>what</i> or <i>What is?</i> when this question seems necessary for intelligibility. <br /><br />For example, if someone were to just say to you "five feet tall", your natural inclination is to ask, <i>What</i> is five feet tall? The mind does not endow five feet tallness, as it were, with independent being or consider it a thing that can exist in and of itself independent of anything else; whereas, other things in similar cases cause the mind not to search for a subject but on the contrary seeks rather predication.<br /><br />Again, for example, if someone were just to say to you "Man", then your natural inquiry is, "<i>What about</i> man?" With the reply being a proper statement or proposition, e.g., "Man is interesting" or "Man is bodily." Of course, if you never heard of "man" linguistically before, you <b>then</b> might ask what man is or what is man; however, in this process, you are also going to decide or judge whether or not man is that kind of thing which is a proper subject in its own right or that kind of thing that can only exist insofar as it attaches to such a thing. We do not ask, therefore, "What is man?" in the same way we would ask "What is five feet tall?" The former seeks a definition whereas the latter seeks a subject. Notice too though that individuals are identified as substances. Hence, Joe is a man. This seems to be the reason for Aristotle's distinction between primary (individuals) and secondary substance (species or kinds).<br /><br />Hope that helps; however, it should be noted that each philosopher has to wrestle himself with the notion of substance and any philosopher could be classified based on his objective or necessary judgments or assumptions about the notion of substance.<br /><br />Finally, the strongest and most readily accessible or intuitive arguments I know of for the existence of substance or its necessity involves problems of infinite regress, both in the order of causation and also epistemologically. If the mind had to keep asking "what is..?" <i>ad infinitum</i> we could never really know anything, in the latter case; and in the order of causation, nature, generation and products would become impossible, as no infinite process can be accomplished: this effect is caused by this, which in turn is caused by this, <i>ad infinitum</i>.Timocrateshttp://americamagazine.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-22868394906479960242015-03-06T10:35:22.071-08:002015-03-06T10:35:22.071-08:00Modern atoms are composed. They are made of electr...Modern atoms are composed. They are made of electrons, protons (themselves composed of quarks) and neutrons. Timocrateshttp://americamagazine.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-41362429809163828662015-03-06T08:07:05.810-08:002015-03-06T08:07:05.810-08:00Dr. Feser:
The atoms, unlike the composites made ...Dr. Feser:<br /><br /><i>The atoms, unlike the composites made out of them, neither come into being nor pass away. They are the basic furniture of the material universe, indivisible and indestructible. For the Nyāya atomist, there must be some such level of parts because otherwise things would be infinitely divisible, and thus have an infinite number of parts.</i> <br /><br />Seanrobsville: <br /><br /><i>There are also conceptual problems with a truly indivisible particle. If a particle were indivisible into parts, then it would have no top and bottom parts, side parts, or back and front parts (think of them as hemispheres of a spherical particle). In other words, it would be an infinitely small mathematical point, and an infinite number of them could fit into an infinitely small space. </i><br /><br />Sean, I believe you are misunderstanding Ed's meaning on "atom". The point to the atom being "indivisible" is that it has no <i>actual</i> parts. The human body has parts not just because it has a top and bottom - dimensionality with "in-between" stuff. It has parts in a more formal sense - it has a liver and a leg and an eye. The eye is distinct from the liver <i>really</i>, not just potentially. <br /><br />The idea of the atom is that it has no parts in THAT sense. Yes, it can have dimension, size a top and bottom. It has, though, no internal structure that makes any portion of its interior distinct from any other portion of its interior other than <i>purely notional or potential</i> distinctions. If I NOTIONALLY divide the atom in half, I can THEN discuss the top and the bottom, but there is nothing IN the top that distinguishes it from the bottom. The width of the atom can notionally be divided up into 7 parts, but the partition is all in my mind, not in the thing itself. <br /><br />It is the "pudding" notion of basic matter. Molecules have parts that consist of things really distinguishable, they have e.g. a carbon part and an oxygen part. (Even if the reality is the incomplete reality of virtual parts, that's enough for my point). An atom (in Ed's sense, not Bohr's sense) is through and through all just the same in every way - it is just pudding no matter how closely, how finely, how experimentally extreme you get, you cannot find one part that acts distinctly from any other part. <br /><br />Nyāya (if I understand the theory) is not saying the atom is point-like. It has an actual positive size. It is supposed as indivisible with respect to both that (a) there is no process (and metaphysically there cannot be any process) which can rend it to a more fine level, and (b) there is nothing within it that "composes" it of parts put together. It is still mathematically divisible in the notional sense - it is extended. Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64091167321320508542015-03-06T03:14:49.413-08:002015-03-06T03:14:49.413-08:00(i was asked it by a student): Does final-causalit...<i>(i was asked it by a student): Does final-causality has a final cause? and if so - isn't it an infinite regress?</i><br /><br />Strictly speaking Final Causality is a way in which beings act not a being in itself so the answer is no. In a more lose sense we can say Final Causality derives from Formal Causality which is just a being's identity. Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-76237972586179947592015-03-06T02:28:32.059-08:002015-03-06T02:28:32.059-08:00Curio, another question for all A-T's here (i ...Curio, <i>another question for all A-T's here (i was asked it by a student): Does final-causality has a final cause? and if so - isn't it an infinite regress?</i><br /><br />The question is illogical. It can be reformulated, "Is final causality an effect?"<br /><br />Can you ask the same about causality as such? e.g. "What is the cause of the concepts of cause and effect? We know that effects are caused by causes, but what caused the causes? Infinite regress!" E.Seignerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675302180154802654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-14580351961886386282015-03-06T02:11:43.173-08:002015-03-06T02:11:43.173-08:00Elementary particles, like electrons are not divis...Elementary particles, like electrons are not divisible in the sense atoms are divisible. They are actually treated mathematically as "point particles without extension but they have "de facto" extension because they are surrounded by a field (but this de facto electron radius is not fixed but depending on the interactions).<br />In any case even a true point particle would have "matter" and form as components and even an electron that does not "naturally" decay can react with /be absorbed by other particles and is not an eternally existing thing.<br />(There are other problems with postulating "true point particles" because then there would be an infinite concentration of electrical charge at this point, this is dealt with by a mathematical procedure called renormalization). <br /><br />The problem of many physicists, even philosophically inclined ones, is that they often oscillate between a kind of pythagoraeanism where they have trouble distinguishing between mathematical structures and the world described by them (or exhibiting that structure) and tend to think that everything is completely explained as long there is some formula, and a more pragmatic stance where they wave hands about problems with infinities, "unphysical solutions" etc. without being explicit about what other considerations (except pragmatic ones) influence what counts e.g. as unphysical.<br /><br /><br /><br /> JRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16342993408695554146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-78399861841694589202015-03-06T02:05:49.641-08:002015-03-06T02:05:49.641-08:00seanrobsville Well yes and no. In a probabilistic ...seanrobsville <i>Well yes and no. In a probabilistic sense a particle is infinitely divisible because its wave function extends to the limits of the universe.</i><br /><br />Because the current physicists say so?<br /><br />Physics has nothing to teach to logic. It works the other way round: The facts of physics have to be interpreted in accordance with logic. When the physicist's conclusion is illogical, it's a sure sign that he interprets the facts the wrong way.E.Seignerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675302180154802654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64170588992392850072015-03-06T02:04:49.198-08:002015-03-06T02:04:49.198-08:00many thanks.
another question for all A-T's h...many thanks. <br />another question for all A-T's here (i was asked it by a student): Does final-causality has a final cause? and if so - isn't it an infinite regress?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-38105966731456958012015-03-06T01:56:26.172-08:002015-03-06T01:56:26.172-08:00There are also conceptual problems with a truly in...<i>There are also conceptual problems with a truly indivisible particle. If a particle were indivisible into parts, then it would have no top and bottom parts, side parts, or back and front parts (think of them as hemispheres of a spherical particle). In other words, it would be an infinitely small mathematical point, and an infinite number of them could fit into an infinitely small space. </i><br /><br />I believe Leibniz drew this conclusion with regards to his concept of monads, an admission he saw leading to the further conclusion that all extension is phenomenal.<br /><br />Also: A gentle plea to all Buddhist:<br /><br />Please please, stop quoting Hume on the nature of the self a la Robert Pirsig - it makes me wonder if Galen Strawson wasn't right when he claimed that most people who quote such from the <i>Treatise</i> don't appear to have been able to finish it. <br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-84348156639633896172015-03-05T23:50:18.210-08:002015-03-05T23:50:18.210-08:00There are also conceptual problems with a truly in...There are also conceptual problems with a truly indivisible particle. If a particle were indivisible into parts, then it would have no top and bottom parts, side parts, or back and front parts (think of them as hemispheres of a spherical particle). In other words, it would be an infinitely small mathematical point, and an infinite number of them could fit into an infinitely small space. <br /><br />The way out of this paradox is to claim that all fundamental particles consist of an indivisible point surrounded by some kind of force field, but then of course the particle is no longer truly indivisible, having two components, one of which extends in three dimensions to an arbitrary distance from the source.seanrobsvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01135048988031819619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46195470352372881062015-03-05T23:17:26.581-08:002015-03-05T23:17:26.581-08:00"For the Nyāya atomist, there must be some su..."<i>For the Nyāya atomist, there must be some such level of parts because otherwise things would be infinitely divisible, and thus have an infinite number of parts. And in that case we would not be able to account for the different sizes of things, since if everything had an infinite number of parts they should all be of the same size. </i>"<br /><br />Well yes and no. In a probabilistic sense a particle is infinitely divisible because its wave function extends to the limits of the universe.seanrobsvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01135048988031819619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-23954521327870759352015-03-05T18:31:23.920-08:002015-03-05T18:31:23.920-08:00A question for Dr. Feser and other Thomists, perha...A question for Dr. Feser and other Thomists, perhaps slightly tangential to the main thrust of the post<br /><br />are atoms substances?Curionoreply@blogger.com