tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post7626483563501375351..comments2024-03-28T13:39:03.094-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Ellmers on Aristotle’s RevengeEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-3962104256128083182019-09-14T01:10:57.929-07:002019-09-14T01:10:57.929-07:00Santi is gay and not in the fun Milo way. Both tr...Santi is gay and not in the fun Milo way. Both traps and Santi are gay.<br /><br />There I'm done and that was minimal effort. Anybody wants me I'll be over at EVE ONLINE trying to run the Tama Gatecamp. Internet Spaceships are a serious business.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-3639136691761125752019-09-13T17:57:29.888-07:002019-09-13T17:57:29.888-07:00Santi, you are lying, or at least being dishonest....Santi, you are lying, or at least being dishonest. This is the internet, so there's plenty of terseness and lack of patience, but it just isn't true that Feser or those here treat all agnostics, atheists, and other critics and skeptics as they do you, SP, or Jerry Coyne. You lot are ignorami in the literal sense, yet you presume to go on and on about what you don't understand. You and SP at least are totally incapable of conciseness or proper discussion. But have a look around. You will see that it is only a select few treated like you and SP.Don't feed the trollsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-17581728207972676482019-09-13T15:14:46.751-07:002019-09-13T15:14:46.751-07:00"I might even become an Eastern Orthodox pers..."I might even become an Eastern Orthodox person akin to David Bentley Hart, whose views on hell are deeply appealing to me. I'm stunned that the arguments he makes in his new book sound exactly like arguments I've made in recent threads here--and been called an idiot for making them. He even brings up Auschwitz. (I've read about 140 pages into the book.)"<br /><br />I believe you were called an idiot for trying to bring discussion of Auschwitz into a thread about whether divine simplicity is compatible with divine creation and whether it leads to modal collapse.<br /><br />People even commented that the points you were making might be interesting in a discussion about the problem of evil, just much less so in arguments about the viability of divine simplicity.<br /><br />Living in a majority Russian Orthodox country I find David Bentley Hart is not exactly representative of everyday Orthodoxy even though he has written some interesting books. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-1103088279856547842019-09-13T13:04:35.255-07:002019-09-13T13:04:35.255-07:00@Glenn
And Feser has replied to your reply on thi...@Glenn<br /><br />And Feser has replied to your reply on this website.<br /><br />You now have the opportunity to engage him directly if you continue to object to his criticisms. Based on what I've read, your review of his book is extremely shoddy and your reply is equally so.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08001130202947985336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-6314691744814927292019-09-13T10:31:46.157-07:002019-09-13T10:31:46.157-07:00Well, I’m not a Thomist and have no wish to be. I ...Well, I’m not a Thomist and have no wish to be. I feel confident I know Aristotle (the actual philosopher and his actual writings) better than Dr. Feser, however, and I’m prepared to stand my ground there. Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11930619365150891699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-12262095522041958482019-09-13T10:09:52.809-07:002019-09-13T10:09:52.809-07:00Glenn:
I think your second response is a bit bett...Glenn:<br /><br />I think your second response is a bit better than your first, so you're on a learning curve. You're apparently experiencing the buzz saw of encountering Thomistic culture for the first time, which is prickly and argumentative.<br /><br />You might find these folks to be your tribe, and join them. I'm more of a David Bentley Hart partisan, as I'm discovering in reading his new book.<br /><br />I would note that numerous atheists/agnostics like myself--Jerry Coyne, etc.--on first interacting with Feser and Thomists, run into the same problem you have. Thomists have a very worked out language/tradition. They deploy it at a high level, and they are temperamentally impatient with people making simple pawn moves in their chess game.<br /><br />Few or no agnostics/atheists have the patience to stick around for the learning curve and hazing, and give up. But since you're already a Christian, you might find the language more worthy of an extended visit. But make no mistake. On Thomistic premises, your second response is not really all that much better than the first. Santihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158850887371068289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-47277873658950099582019-09-13T09:19:25.005-07:002019-09-13T09:19:25.005-07:00I'm gratified to know that my incompetent revi...I'm gratified to know that my incompetent review had some incidental benefit. Every ice cube has a final cause of cooling (so I'm told) and every feckless review has a silver lining, I suppose.Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11930619365150891699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-36739909644020650952019-09-13T08:50:26.484-07:002019-09-13T08:50:26.484-07:00Gentlemen:
All my life I've learned from peop...Gentlemen:<br /><br />All my life I've learned from people's otherness. Otherness has always struck me as a gift. Argumentative otherness--testing ideas on those who see things from a radically different vantage from me--is an especially useful gift.<br /><br />I am genuinely bewildered as to why my otherness is not of value to some of you; why you would want my sort of otherness to go away. I've learned from the oddball people I've met. It has never failed.<br /><br />I have no idea as to where my own intellectual life might evolve over time. I could remain an agnostic, or become a Thomist, or perhaps a Spinozan or Buddhist. <br /><br />I might even become an Eastern Orthodox person akin to David Bentley Hart, whose views on hell are deeply appealing to me. I'm stunned that the arguments he makes in his new book sound exactly like arguments I've made in recent threads here--and been called an idiot for making them. He even brings up Auschwitz. (I've read about 140 pages into the book.) <br /><br />If I were to become Christian, I think it would be after the manner of Dr. Hart.<br /><br />So if I go on chiming in at future threads--which is never a certainty--at worst you might see my name, feel a twinge of annoyance, and pass by without reading. <br /><br />But occasionally you might want to engage with my otherness. My otherness is a gift. Is it a temperamental thing not to see that? Not to want that around?<br /><br />I see your otherness as a gift to me. I've learned an enormous amount interacting with Thomists, reading Feser's books, etc.<br /><br />I grew up Catholic, and at this stage in my life these threads are a roundabout way to see what language I left behind as a teen. <br /><br />This thread is about a fellow who wrote an incompetent review, but his otherness spurred surprising directions for thought in me. His otherness was not a waste. Feser learned from him; he learned from Feser.<br /><br />It may be that we're just having a clash of temperaments between inclusives and exclusives. I personally chalk it up to evolutionary variation--how people react to me--which makes it all the more fascinating. Humans are interesting. Santihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158850887371068289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-61988433078664759422019-09-13T07:15:26.372-07:002019-09-13T07:15:26.372-07:00@Red
>Please act responsibly and maturely brot...@Red<br /><br />>Please act responsibly and maturely brother.<br /><br />I must decline yer kind offer my brother.<br /><br />>There no need of disrespecting a man;even the one who you think is a troll.<br /><br />Respect is earned as well as the loss of it. Santi has earned the later not the former with moi.<br /><br />He is so gay in the non-Milo way till further notice. I have spoken all Hail me!<br /><br />God bless.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-17435395474348556652019-09-13T04:40:49.180-07:002019-09-13T04:40:49.180-07:00BTW, that's a different anonymous to me (the f...BTW, that's a different anonymous to me (the first). Don't feed the trollsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-2182871175973437262019-09-13T04:30:37.620-07:002019-09-13T04:30:37.620-07:00Here is my brief response (this was all the space ...Here is my brief response (this was all the space they would allow me) to Professor Feser: <br /><br />https://www.lawliberty.org/2019/09/13/the-cloud-of-tradition/Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11930619365150891699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-9198064023982096892019-09-13T02:06:09.119-07:002019-09-13T02:06:09.119-07:00You can see why Santi seems like a Troll in his Se...You can see why Santi seems like a Troll in his September 12, 2019 at 1:12 PM post. <br /><br />A lot of the content of Feser's blog is metaphysics. Anyone familiar with issues in metaphysics knows there are ways it is inevitably closely bound up with the interpretation and understanding of the results of scientific investigation.<br /><br />Santi writes a lot but seems to have little interest in this kind of thing.<br /><br />This is a pattern with troll-like contributors (like SP), posting plenty of stuff with marginal relevance to the subjects being discussed because of a lack of interest in philosophy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-72315060551662290862019-09-13T01:04:00.127-07:002019-09-13T01:04:00.127-07:00Out of Santi, I mean. Out of Santi, I mean. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-18521309471469474642019-09-13T01:02:42.200-07:002019-09-13T01:02:42.200-07:00Red, stop feeding trolls. Whatever you think of So...Red, stop feeding trolls. Whatever you think of Son of Yakov's methods, it should be completely obvious by now that you aren't going to get anything sensible out of him. He is incapable or totally unwilling to argue and discuss things in a rational and concise manner. We should all wish him to go away. You are encouraging him to stay around. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-57777672820467913092019-09-13T00:47:29.341-07:002019-09-13T00:47:29.341-07:00Santi,
If you paid attention you would see that I ...Santi,<br />If you paid attention you would see that I havent't shown some concerning levels of confidence or anything like that as you suggest.I was making a pretty straightforward claim, not sure why you choose to quibble with particular term and you no longer are engaging particular point we were discussing.<br />Rest of you post deals with relationship between science and metaphysics. I am not sure your comments and questions are directly relevant to previous discussion, I dont wish to engage with them right now,maybe would do in future.I would simply say that your view here is seriously wrong from what I can tell.Redhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569340378356607760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-82884640753231538322019-09-13T00:28:19.468-07:002019-09-13T00:28:19.468-07:00Son of Ya'kov
Please act responsibly and matu...Son of Ya'kov <br />Please act responsibly and maturely brother. There no need of disrespecting a man;even the one who you think is a troll.Redhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569340378356607760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-15112583163260865822019-09-12T20:43:24.691-07:002019-09-12T20:43:24.691-07:00@Anon
Well ok I'll do a little counter Trolli...@Anon<br /><br />Well ok I'll do a little counter Trolling. BTW if Prof Feser takes my post down I understand completely and apologize for thread jacking. (I only hope ya all get a laugh out of it).<br /><br />@Santi<br /><br />Gay!<br /><br />You are so completely and totally gay right now & I should point out that by "gay" I don't mean in the awesome, fabulous, beautiful and entertaining sort of gayness of Milo Yiannopoulos, Nor the intellectually rigorous gayness of a Tammy Bruce with her keen political insight. Or the fantastic free speech gayness of a Dave Ruben.<br /><br />No sir, yours is the sad creepy gayness of Uncle Ernie from the TOMMY movie or the criminal narcissistic gayness of Jussie Smolet or the airhead gayness of Ellen Page. <br /><br />You are just so very gay right now and not in the fun Milo way.<br /><br />Gay I say!Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-12350704617016035742019-09-12T18:48:32.862-07:002019-09-12T18:48:32.862-07:00I’ll post a link when it runs tomorrow. I think it...I’ll post a link when it runs tomorrow. I think it would be inappropriate to post it here before it appears at Law & Liberty. Glennhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11930619365150891699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-58777340800823283882019-09-12T17:44:29.181-07:002019-09-12T17:44:29.181-07:00Yeah, Santi hasn't changed much, and is still ...Yeah, Santi hasn't changed much, and is still a massive troll. Look at his lack of concern for any rigor or conciseness in his arguments. Instead of actually trying to significantly improve, he's back to his most self-indulgent, longwinded, and silly. Son of Yakov, have at him, I say. We need you to help rid of us of this noxious troll. Troll feeders please knock off! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-14513033880656101322019-09-12T13:12:47.860-07:002019-09-12T13:12:47.860-07:00Son of Ya'Kov, Anonymous 2, and Red:
I suppos...Son of Ya'Kov, Anonymous 2, and Red:<br /><br />I suppose it's easier to go after a person's sexuality when you live in Russia or do it from behind the curtain of a moniker.<br /><br />As for self reflection, it's a two-way street. How people react to others says something about them as well, does it not? I think it can corrode one's character to get dopamine hits from disrespecting others. To your credit, you communicated your opinion to me, Anonymous 2, without resort to either, and I'm listening.<br /><br />As for Red, your points are taken, but I am concerned about rational confidence levels. <br /><br />Scientific models are fallible, but they are less fallible than models from disciplines outside of the sciences. <br /><br />The most distorted "funhouse mirrors"--a term Feser deploys against physics (pg. 304)--are more in disciplines outside the sciences.<br /><br />Philosophy is among the non-empirical disciplines. It seems incautious therefore to correct the sciences with Aristotle, Hegel, or any other philosopher's competing "funhouse mirror."<br /><br />You could, for example, write a book titled, "Parmenides's Revenge," and throw your lot in with those physicists who support a block universe--but what would be the point?<br /><br />Scientific languages and models generally work well. They have their own inner logic and methods of correction. Overlaying them with an inherently less certain, unverifiable metaphysical system serves what end, exactly? <br /><br />Poetry?<br /><br />I don't think it would be wise, for example, for a physicist to give up on pursuing time travel on the advice from a philosopher that it is, quite simply, metaphysically impossible.<br /><br />The level of certainty that we can generally attach to philosophical claims and models is just not high enough to speak of them as fixing--or achieving "revenge" upon--the "fun house mirrors" of science.<br /><br />The most sensible move is simply the following: "This philosophical system can be made to cohere with x scientific theory if we think of it this way..."--but that's about it.<br /><br />But in the end, no "Tao of Physics," no "Aristotle's Revenge." Just physics. Just biology. The self correcting methods and inner logic of these are in no need of inherently less certain metalanguages. <br /><br />And even if they were, how could we know with confidence greater than the sciences themselves whether these metalanguages were true?<br /><br />We might find ourselves tweaking and producing an elaborate metaphysical system that is akin to a correlation-causation fallacy. We've got all our dials adjusted in such a way that they fit with current science just so. This still might produce no more than a poetic relation to the world. Santihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18158850887371068289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-25273267332792180342019-09-12T10:42:58.763-07:002019-09-12T10:42:58.763-07:00Ignore Santi he is in fact a troll. If Dr. Feser ...Ignore Santi he is in fact a troll. If Dr. Feser would let me I would respond to his blather by questioning his sexual orientation or whatever counter troll stuff I could come up with (& you all know me I can come up with a lot).<br /><br />There is no point to him so ignore him.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-30856778781342924592019-09-12T06:04:29.947-07:002019-09-12T06:04:29.947-07:00Why not publish (part of it) here?Why not publish (part of it) here?Walter Van den Ackerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16101735542155226072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-55053105730094156062019-09-12T06:03:56.828-07:002019-09-12T06:03:56.828-07:00We may have concluded in advance of the argument t...<i><br />We may have concluded in advance of the argument that our position is true and good. We thus deploy rhetoric for persuasion or recite to others how we arrived at what we take to be a true position.</i><br /><br />Right,and it seems that to you,that is just what philosophical reasoning is. That would explain the particular form of your posts.<br />In any case there is enough of substantive argumentation in Feser's work to tell that this isnt true of it. even though you might not see any difference yourself.<br /><br /><i>As for "establish[ing] scientific or metaphysical views without...the kinds of commitments we are discussing," I do think it's possible, yes. Focus on the word you chose: "establish." What does it mean to establish something with certainty?</i> <br /><br />I meant it in a really clear and simple way, showing that something ought to be believed. There was no need of such lecture.In any case your answer here is in contradiction with your overall view.<br /><br /><i>So yes, if you showed me contrary arguments and data, I believe I have the capacity for change because I really do try to come at the world with doubt as opposed to confidence.</i><br /><br />I don't think you understood my point here. I would just tell you to read it again.<br /><br /><i>As to your political point, I agree that Feser was under no obligation to address ecology. It's his book.</i><br /><br />But importantly, it is in no way rendered less plausible as you suggest.Redhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569340378356607760noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-58201947038987036092019-09-12T01:54:48.515-07:002019-09-12T01:54:48.515-07:00Santi, have you ever wondered why you get this res...Santi, have you ever wondered why you get this response a lot? Far from all naturalists here do. It is the reaction that SP, Counter Rebel and other trolls get. Instead of lecturing others, you could consider your own posting style and contents. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-70079718165584425042019-09-11T15:14:24.826-07:002019-09-11T15:14:24.826-07:00Go away, troll.Go away, troll.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com