tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post6520363929847187510..comments2024-03-28T13:39:03.094-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: An Open Appeal to the Cardinals of the ChurchEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-29563621982999528962019-01-21T18:33:01.055-08:002019-01-21T18:33:01.055-08:00Contradicting scripture?
Some churches may have 1 ...Contradicting scripture?<br />Some churches may have 1 thing that other churches find suspect. The catholic church has a list that runs off the page. <br />I'm sorry but you can no longer appeal to the Bible on any topic you don't agree with. Your argument would simply have no weight behind it. <br /><br />I also find it incredible that calling for Death should be paramount at this point in history. Your church is rampant with homosexuals, many who have abused the people and families that bought into the idea that your institution produces people who have been appointed directly from God. Many of us are shocked at the utter silence of the mouth pieces of the catholic church who are either in denial or just horribly callous.<br />The supposed true church has protected, excused, and enabled debauchery that any organization would never recover from. How about starting there? John Burgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06021462296956618398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-17992218514367183272018-08-28T12:25:58.311-07:002018-08-28T12:25:58.311-07:00“Ultramontanism is wrong in principle”? Cardinal M...“Ultramontanism is wrong in principle”? Cardinal Manning thought otherwise. And so, it appears did Pius IX and his successors until 1958.<br /><br />The present situation is a direct result of Ultramontanism - what could be more Ultramontane, albeit in a twisted way, than for Paul VI and his successors to do as they wish with the Liturgy and Faith of the Church ? The gradual centuries-long emancipation of the Papacy from the duty of having to be Catholic has created an uncontrollable monster. JP2 & B16 & Francis are the result. The infallibility of the Church is dying by 1,000 qualifications. It’s laughable & depressing. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-41064686793909869342018-08-28T12:06:30.655-07:002018-08-28T12:06:30.655-07:00Pius 97th is probably going to have to find a way ...Pius 97th is probably going to have to find a way of annulling the pontificates of the Popes since 1963, while not annulling those of their acts that are more or less Catholic. I predict the decanonisation of JP2. But none of this will happen before 10,000 AD or so, by which time the Pope will have been declared Patriarch of the Milky Way. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-57940327498761154972018-08-28T11:58:53.830-07:002018-08-28T11:58:53.830-07:00Given recent events appealing to the higher clergy...Given recent events appealing to the higher clergy, cardinals or not, seems a pretty useless exercise. Someone in the CC is needed who is both a good human being, and has the power to drain the swamp in which the cardinals and their kind live. <br />Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-44139397328399781042018-08-27T16:24:03.476-07:002018-08-27T16:24:03.476-07:00I don't think this petition is going to go any...I don't think this petition is going to go anywhere. I think the Pope has bigger problems. I also don't think he will survive the year.<br /><br />We will have to wait for Pope Francis II, Pius XIII, John Paul III, Benedict XVII or Leo XIV to deal with this.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-13509192150707433282018-08-23T20:52:40.073-07:002018-08-23T20:52:40.073-07:00The Church has always maintained that the authorit...The Church has always maintained that the authority of the Pope derives from Christ and that he, therefore, has no superior on earth. And since it is the superior who judges the inferior, there is no one on earth with legitimate power to judge the Pope.<br />However, an important exception has been recognized for centuries. From the examination of the following texts it follows that the Church could judge a reigning Pope only in the case of him being a heretic, and that he could even be deposed for it. Several precisions have to be made, though. First is that the Church could not properly be the cause of the Pope losing his office, for it came to him from Christ, but would only be making the judgement of heresy. Second, that it is not enough that he would teach some heresy, but that he would have to be obdurate on it. Third, that the judgment of heresy is not incumbent to any particular individual, but institutionally to the Church. Fourth, that there is no accord on the way in which this should be done. Fifth, that the Pope would remain in office until the judgement has been passed.<br /> The Decretum Gratiani dates from the XII century and is arguably the first precursor of the Code of Canon Law. In the canon Si Papa (dist 40, ch. 6, Dampnatur Apostolicus, qui suae et fraternae salutis est negligens), provides:<br />If the Pope, being neglectful of his own salvation and that of his brethren, be found useless and remiss in his works, and, more than that, reluctant to do good (which harms himself and others even more), and nonetheless brings down with him innumerable throngs of people … Let no mortal man presumes to rebuke him for his faults, for, it being incumbent upon him to judge all, he should be judged by no one, unless he is suddenly caught deviating from the faith (Huius culpas istic redarguere presumit mortalium nullus, quia cunctos ipse iudicaturus a nemine est iudicandus, nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius).<br />Pope Innocent III preached:<br />For faith is so necessary for me that, while for other sins I have only God as my judge, only for that sin which is committed against faith could I be judged by the Church.<br />And St. Robert Bellarmine wrote in De Romano Pontifice, bk. 2, ch. 30:<br />A Pope can be judged and deposed by the Church in the case of heresy; as is clear from Dist. 40, can. Si Papa: therefore, the Pontiff is subject to human judgment, at least in some case.<br />And John of St Thomas comments:<br />A specific text is found in the Decree of Gratian, Distinction 40, chapter ‘Si Papa,’ where it is said: ‘On earth, no mortal should presume to reproach the Pontiff for any fault, because he who has to judge others, should not be judged by anyone, unless he is found deviating from the Faith’ (Pars I, D 40, c. 6). This exception obviously means that in case of heresy, a judgment could be made about the Pope.<br />The same thing is confirmed by the letter of Pope Hadrian, reported in the Eighth General Council [IV Constantinople, 869- 870], in the 7th session, where it is said that the Roman Pontiff is judged by no one, but the anathema was made by the Orientals against Honorius, because he was accused of heresy, the only cause for which it is lawful for inferiors to resist their superiors. Also, Pope St. Clement says in his first epistle that St. Peter taught that a heretical Pope must be deposed. (Cursus Theologici II-II De Auctoritate Summi Pontificis, Disp. II, Art. III, De Depositione Papae, p. 133; translated by Albert Doskey. Cited here)Small time thomistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-85415876559291710492018-08-23T10:39:25.143-07:002018-08-23T10:39:25.143-07:00Well this is lights out for post-Reformation Weste...Well this is lights out for post-Reformation Western Catholicism. The Pope, using his Papal authority, says the death penalty is immoral in itself. All this (petitions, etc.) is too late. This has already been done. So, if we are to submit to this, it means for millennia the Church was OKing something intrinsically immoral. If we don't submit to this, then we admit at least the Ordinary Magisterium can contain harmful error. I can already hear the spin-doctors telling me to deny what is in front of me but these are the facts.<br />Vince Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-73572359539960906952018-08-20T19:13:27.963-07:002018-08-20T19:13:27.963-07:00Not Roman Catholic but always demand the truth and...Not Roman Catholic but always demand the truth and justice against any human authority.<br />God, the bible, human innate sense of justice demands execution for murder of the murderer.<br />to prohibit this is to deny the value of a human life by denying justice of punishment for taking that human life.<br />Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-62305056390756546332018-08-20T09:27:08.342-07:002018-08-20T09:27:08.342-07:00Thanks for the citations. I didn't suppose tha...Thanks for the citations. I didn't suppose that N.T. Wright was competent to offer authoritative criticism of Ratzinger's writings about doctrine.ficino4mlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00805116221735364590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-39286537666040651352018-08-19T21:44:06.781-07:002018-08-19T21:44:06.781-07:00Not to mention the deterrence it'd have and --...Not to mention the deterrence it'd have and -- perhaps arguably -- how it might incline someone who otherwise should have (at the risk of their own damnation, too) reported -- rather than cover up -- the abuse, to save the abuser's earthy *and* heavenly life!Kielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-18852577182376575202018-08-19T17:22:22.096-07:002018-08-19T17:22:22.096-07:00One thing that occurs to me is that if capital pun...One thing that occurs to me is that if capital punishment had more support by both the States and the church in the States and if the government recongnized the sacrilege of the abuse, then it wouldn't take a fancy argument to claim the death penalty is proportional punishment for multiple offenders.Kielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-78372295697297814312018-08-19T16:21:05.713-07:002018-08-19T16:21:05.713-07:00According to Ott these are the only two infallible...According to Ott these are the only two infallible dogmas associated with Purgatory.<br /><br /><b> The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory.<br /><br />The living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages).</b><br /><br />The teachings of Florence and Trent say.<br /><br />"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).<br /><br />That appears to be the total doctrine of purgatory the rest is commentary & speculations by Theologians, Poets and Mystics.<br /><br />Or maybe Wright is channelling the myth that the number of days an indulgence grants using the old form somehow constitutes time off in purgatory?<br /><br />Yeh it doesn't. That is a myth like the idea Mary had to be sinless so that Jesus would be without original sin. Mary is sinless because it's fitting She be so not because Jesus would have been in danger of contracting original sin from her if she was a sinner. The incarnation precludes Christ having any original sin or sin in general.<br /><br />So this doesn't appear true.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46023646033433452042018-08-18T07:28:45.625-07:002018-08-18T07:28:45.625-07:00Might I suggest that success with this petition hi...Might I suggest that success with this petition hinges on persons who are against the death pentaly being at the forfront?<br /><br />Some idiots(I wouldn't be suprised if Mark Shea does this) are going to trash it as Pro-death penalty people dissenting against the Pope.<br /><br />Not true. I am for the death pentalty. I think abolishing it would be a mistake BUT I would consent to see it abolished world wide if only the Church is not made to appear to have changed Her doctrine.<br /><br />If this change in the CCC is sold as a prudent discipline not a change in doctrine I can be on board with that too.<br /><br />So anti-death penalty signers get out in front. Pro- Death penalty types. Hit the mute button. Now is not the time to lobby for the benefits of CP. The doctrinal integrity of the church is ALL.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-482819078938158002018-08-18T06:32:24.926-07:002018-08-18T06:32:24.926-07:00OT, but is about Benedict XVI before he was pope. ...OT, but is about Benedict XVI before he was pope. Protestant biblical scholar N.T. Wright wrote this in criticism of Ratzinger: <br /><br />"Ratzinger, along with Rahner, has detached the concept of purgatory from the concept of an intermediate state, and has broken the link that, in the Middle Ages, gave rise to the idea of indulgences and so provided a soft target for Protestant polemic. This represents a considerable climb-down on the part of an avowedly conservative Roman Catholic from the<br />doctrine of Aquinas, Dante, and Newman." In Death, Resurrection, and Human Destiny: Christian and Muslim Perspectives (Georgetown 2014) 18.<br /><br />Is this true? Did Ratzinger endorse a substantial change in traditional doctrine about purgatory and an intermediate state? Seems at variance with Ratzinger's usual stances as far as I was aware of them.ficino4mlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00805116221735364590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64752350414733758522018-08-18T00:26:42.892-07:002018-08-18T00:26:42.892-07:00Comments on the new scandal Dr Feser? The pope is ...Comments on the new scandal Dr Feser? The pope is bigger problems within his church right now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07513549902295737237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-67281343388167353672018-08-17T15:40:25.524-07:002018-08-17T15:40:25.524-07:00I say muster whatever number you can and do it. Th...<i>I say muster whatever number you can and do it. The rest is in God's hands.</i> <br /><br />I agree. There are limits to worrying about the plausible or foreseeable results of this or that action: we cannot tell how an outspoken, upright action in defense of the truth and the moral law will help many people in subtle and hidden ways to bolster their confidence in the right way, even if they never say anything. So, maybe Francis skirts the issue, and "nothing ever gets done". But maybe the next pope is a little more cautious about pushing his own personal views. Or maybe 2 popes later there is a document that repudiates Francis's change. Or <i>who knows what?</i> The fact of the matter is that bishops are called to <i>testify to the Truth</i>, and let the chips fall where they may, even if that means martyrdom. Pope Marcellinus hid himself from the authorities, and was accounted in the wrong for doing so, even though it was permissible for ordinary Christians to do that. You can't triangulate in the battle between Heaven and Hell, there is no third option. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-90694992391820837962018-08-17T13:56:14.618-07:002018-08-17T13:56:14.618-07:00I think the difference is that the form of the mas...I think the difference is that the form of the mass is something within the bounds of the Church to bind and loose (as long as it remains a Mass). However, the death penalty is a matter of morals that conservatives say the Church cannot change. Indeed, if the Church could have guided and even commanded people to commit intrinsic evil for two thousand years, it certainly is not protected by the Holy Spirit.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481589239954065668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-15441262255431742872018-08-17T11:37:26.519-07:002018-08-17T11:37:26.519-07:00As a fervent groupie (i.e., not a critic) of Franc...As a fervent groupie (i.e., not a critic) of Francis has recently opined in apparent tribute:<br /><br /><i>Pope Francis breaks Catholic traditions whenever he wants because he is “free from disordered attachments.” Our Church has indeed entered a new phase: with the advent of this first Jesuit pope, it is openly ruled by an individual rather than by the authority of Scripture alone or even its own dictates of tradition plus Scripture. </i><br /><br />Astonishing but true.Atticushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03537205387276510875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-11428360366389221822018-08-17T10:21:51.121-07:002018-08-17T10:21:51.121-07:00>Geez, what is the point of this comparison?
...>Geez, what is the point of this comparison? <br /><br />Merely to point out it can always be much worst then it is so don't grumble.<br /><br />cheers.<br />Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-28502108499489837972018-08-17T09:42:46.515-07:002018-08-17T09:42:46.515-07:00There’s nothing shaky in the logic of the letter, ...There’s nothing shaky in the logic of the letter, it seems you don’t understand what is in the power of a pope to do, he cannot create a new teaching and negate what had been clearly defined. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389327995824386334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-50494969732629161412018-08-17T09:22:28.241-07:002018-08-17T09:22:28.241-07:00Perhaps what makes the difference is whether the m...<i>Perhaps what makes the difference is whether the magisterium has taught something consistently or not. If it was taught consistently then it should not be corrected. But then, I wonder, at what time does a teaching of the magisterium become consistent and thus incorrigible? After 100 years, 500 years, 1.000 years? After 5.000 years perhaps? And who defines this? And on what grounds?</i><br /><br />If only our host, or at least some theologian at any point in the Church's history, had thought to address this question.Gregnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31683331895020862142018-08-17T09:20:25.115-07:002018-08-17T09:20:25.115-07:00People call it development a) because it coincides...People call it development a) because it coincides with their antecedent belief that the death penalty is intrinsically wrong and b) because it has not happened all at once. You can tell someone doesn't care about the authenticity of a development when their criteria for development do not distinguish it from the other possibility Newman identified, <i>corruption</i>.<br /><br />And yes, I think a lot of DP opposition which purports to be prudential is really a rationalization of principled opposition. You can see this in how people talk about it. They are horrified by the thought that a <i>civilized nation</i> would execute anyone. They think it's monstrous. Although they gesture toward empirical reasons, they have seldom thought much about them.Gregnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-21054416080637800072018-08-17T07:02:44.966-07:002018-08-17T07:02:44.966-07:00If we get an "orthodox" Pope who is pers...<i>If we get an "orthodox" Pope who is personally & morally a bad person you lot will beg God to bring Francis back.</i><br /><br />Geez, what is the point of this comparison? Of course things could be worse. Whatever the situation is the thing to beg God for is holiness for the present pope and the holiness of any future pope.<br /><br />You're right that an orthodox pope with the morals of Fr. Marcel would probably do more lasting damage to the faith, if he were pope <i>today</i>. The thing about Alexander VI is that he was not pope in an era when huge portions of the faithful (and the non-faithful) heard about everything the pope said and did. The Church has failed to adapt to an age in which the papacy is superlatively visible and in which both personal immorality and doctrinal muddleheadedness are a lot more scandalous than they were 500 years ago. Everyone knows ultramontanism is wrong in principle, but in practice it <i>feels</i> so inevitable when the media effectively holds the present pope under a magnifying glass. I think this is why people feel compelled to harmonize at all costs; they feel that Catholicism loses all of its credibility if the current pope is bad.Gregnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-49070209374743050152018-08-17T05:22:04.006-07:002018-08-17T05:22:04.006-07:00http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantistwatc...http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sedevacantistwatch-novusordowatch.html?m=1<br /><br />http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/part-ii-can-church-judge-heretical-pope.html?m=1<br /><br />A heretical Pope probably can be judged in some sense by the Church. Note that in some since is a very complicated issue. I don’t think that’s going to happen unless Pope Francis allows for women priests or something that’s both clearly heretical and has practical consequences on your average Catholic. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-18352784563859914742018-08-17T05:21:30.634-07:002018-08-17T05:21:30.634-07:00I copy from the letter:
"The legitimacy in ...I copy from the letter: <br /><br />"The legitimacy in principle of capital punishment is also the consistent teaching of the magisterium for two millennia. To contradict Scripture and tradition on this point would cast doubt on the credibility of the magisterium in general.”<br /><br />So the 45 signatories worry about people doubting the RCC’s teaching. Scripture is mentioned (in this case the OT) but, since scripture must be interpreted, all goes back to what the magisterium’s teaching has been. So the 45 argue that a pope should not contradict anything the magisterium has taught consistently because doing so would “cast doubt” on the credibility of the magisterium as a whole. But why? Since they use the “consistently” predicate it follows that there have been cases where the magisterium has corrected itself. Why didn’t people then “cast doubt” on the whole? (Many people would rather become doubtful if the magisterium never corrected itself.)<br /><br />Perhaps what makes the difference is whether the magisterium has taught something consistently or not. If it was taught consistently then it should not be corrected. But then, I wonder, at what time does a teaching of the magisterium become consistent and thus incorrigible? After 100 years, 500 years, 1.000 years? After 5.000 years perhaps? And who defines this? And on what grounds? <br /><br />I say the logic of the letter appears to be kind of shaky. Dianelos Georgoudishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09925591703967774000noreply@blogger.com