tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post4384997887398526460..comments2024-03-28T21:43:44.433-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: The Church permits criticism of popes under certain circumstancesEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger107125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64645323528143732872024-01-24T16:04:25.097-08:002024-01-24T16:04:25.097-08:00This clarity of the current situation is exactly w...This clarity of the current situation is exactly what I needed. Thank you Prof. Feser.<br />I'm sure many Catholics are similarly torn between assent and dissent on matters emanating from the pontificate of Pope Francis. <br />I'm not sure if I'm going off-piste here, but if the Pope were to teach ex-cathedra, dogma that was contrary to the Gospel and tradition, would that mean de facto, that he is not the legitimate Pope?Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10341288321874574699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-27259018868500086302023-07-23T15:48:48.715-07:002023-07-23T15:48:48.715-07:00Dr Feser, it's not just non-infallible teachin...Dr Feser, it's not just non-infallible teachings which can have deficiencies and be criticized. Even infallible teachings are merely free from technical error, and can be imprudent, unhelpful, in need of more nuance, could have been taught better, etc. Taylor Barretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00921593336003098435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-7130648534303614292022-08-08T11:29:22.414-07:002022-08-08T11:29:22.414-07:00I wonder how those would now consider this article...I wonder how those would now consider this article in light of the host of papal talking points, synods, gestures, and Vatican covid reaction and inoculation pressure over the last few years. Surely some opinions have hardened and others reassessed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-69788907462431129592022-07-18T13:11:40.378-07:002022-07-18T13:11:40.378-07:00Hello Dr. Feser, did St. Peter teach error as Pope...Hello Dr. Feser, did St. Peter teach error as Pope? If not, and he merely gave scandal in his informal behavior, could you please justify your below claim with another premise or example?:<br />"...the Church has always allowed for the possibility of criticism of a pope who *teaches error* (my emphasis added). Indeed, such an acknowledgment is there in the New Testament, in St. Paul’s famous public rebuke of St. Peter for *conduct* (my emphasis added)..." Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12607664989247839903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-39668878385976616242021-07-18T19:19:15.604-07:002021-07-18T19:19:15.604-07:00This article is a huge waste of time. The premise ...This article is a huge waste of time. The premise behind it being that Francis is a bad pope. Quite arrogant to think you know he is not guided by the Holy Spirit when in fact he may be and your problems are really with Jesus Christ not pope Francis. Bryan Bairdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13597471327368062210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-75088586629266001542018-08-14T20:09:37.799-07:002018-08-14T20:09:37.799-07:00All those questions can be, and probably have been...All those questions can be, and probably have been, at one time or another, answered. But there are too many to be dealt with in a single post. It is because such questions arise, that the Church has exegetes, Church historians, canonists, theologians. <br /><br />If no Church makes valid claims, what do you do with the Words of Christ, that “...on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” ? If one accepts they have Divine authority, and are still in force, what is one to do with them ? Or does one disregard them as megalomaniacal foolishness, or perhaps as inauthentic ? Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-86133804379595313732018-08-14T19:51:07.132-07:002018-08-14T19:51:07.132-07:00“Those stupid men are unconcerned that the Holy Ap...“Those stupid men are unconcerned that the Holy Apostolic Church has, from Saint Peter to this day, never been heard to teach anything that is contrary to orthodox faith.”<br /><br />Bad history is bad history, even from the Pope. And the future Adrian VI wrote, while still a theologian, that Popes had erred. So he cannot have thought the words of Pius II prevented him saying that Popes had erred. Just because Popes are not very keen on being criticised, does not make those criticisms untrue or unjust or inaccurate. Alexander VI allowed Bl. Columba of Rieti to criticise him to his face - and he said that her criticisms of him were accurate. <br /><br />For a Pope to call his critics “stupid” shows not that they are wrong, but only that he has a talent for insulting people. It is entirely unconvincing as a means of vindicating one’s character. And someone who needs to be praised, but cannot abide being criticised, has a pretty weak character. The Apostles were made of sterner stuff - they had no need of flatterers. Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-13007323804694827702018-08-14T19:28:08.187-07:002018-08-14T19:28:08.187-07:00Pius IX laid a wreath on his tomb in 1857. Benedic...Pius IX laid a wreath on his tomb in 1857. Benedict XV wrote an Encyclical in praise of him in 1921 (the 6th centenary of his death). http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xv/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_30041921_in-praeclara-summorum.html<br /><br />His Catholic credentials were defended by St. Robert Bellarmine against attempts by Zwingli to claim him as one of the proto-Protestant “Testes Veritatis”. <br /><br />Cardinal Manning said this: “No uninspired hand has ever written thoughts so high in words, so resplendent, as the last stanza of the Divina Commedia. It was said of St. Thomas, “Post Summam Thomae nihil restat nisi lumen gloriae”. It may be said of Dante, “Post Dantis Paradisum nihil restat nisi visio Dei”. <br /><br />These four witnesses, to whom more could be added, should be more than enough to vindicate the genuineness of the poet’s reputation as an orthodox Catholic, the sublime excellence of the Divina Commedia as a poem - perhaps the very greatest ever written - and the fruitfulness for Catholics of reading it. <br /><br />He is not always respectful. The same can be said of the Prophets, and Apostles and St John Baptist & St Paul - yet the words of all 26 of these are in the Bible, and all 26 men are Saints. Christ Himself could be savagely critical. <br /><br />Dante is sometimes very severe, as in Inferno 19 and Paradiso 27, but he does not go beyond these speakers. He even curbs his tongue in Inferno 19, from “reverence for the supreme keys”. He is severe against Papal corruptions such as simony, worldliness and avarice, precisely because he held the Papacy in profound veneration, and therefore hated to see it degraded. This is the man who loathed the worldliness of Boniface VIII, yet in Purgatorio 20 could describe the assault on Boniface VIII at Anagni as a second Crucifixion of Christ. <br /><br />I can’t think of a better author for Catholics troubled by the state of the Church to read. <br /><br />Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02432033696871518417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-62388196527116332972018-07-11T14:15:39.271-07:002018-07-11T14:15:39.271-07:00There is a huge flaws in this post. To start, the ...There is a huge flaws in this post. To start, the basic Catholic apologetic argument is that without the Catholic Church defining things, we can't know very much from the Bible because of various interpretations. Therefore we should accept Matthew 16:18 as proof that the papacy is real, and be Catholic! From that verse, they say various authorities flow to Pope Francis. The problem is that we don't know if the Catholic Church has ever defined anything EVER. Trent is divided into canons and decrees. Are the decrees alone infallible and the canons disciplinary? Or are the canons alone infallible because they alone use St. Paul's word "anathema"? Who has to be addressed by an infallible decree? There is no rule here. Does the Pope have to address the bishops alone and send it to them? Does the Pope have to sign it? These questions are raised by the Galileo controversy, and there is no answer to them. Collegiality has brought another argument to the forefront. Let's say that collegiality is true and that extreme traditionalists are wrong. Then how do we know that past papal decrees were not done by Popes who did not believe in collegiality and therefore wrote their decrees illegitimately? We can switch it around. How do we know that collegiality is not actually incorrect, and that previous Popes have sent out their decrees in the spirit of collegiality and therefore their decrees are not valid? Without more information from Jesus on how to perform infallible decrees, we are left in the same spot as the Protestants. There is no decree that says "this is infallible". They CAN be interpreted as acts of ordinary magisterium actually. Finally, Matthew 18:18 doesn't say if all the bishops have to be at a Council or if they need to all approve of it, in order for the Council to be valid. Therefore the book of Matthew is worthless in trying to justify a church's authority. So, in conclusion, Catholics are in the dark as much as Protestants when it comes to theology. Recently some Mormons have been trying to convert me to their "true church" which has the "true priesthood". Don't be fooled by any church. None of their claims are valid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-29513587402753907602018-06-13T12:39:15.383-07:002018-06-13T12:39:15.383-07:00As former world chess champion, Jose Capablanca, s...As former world chess champion, Jose Capablanca, said, "Conceit I consider a foolish thing, but more foolish still is the false modesty that vainly attempts to conceal which all facts tend to prove."Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08001130202947985336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-24237198301197443072018-06-08T08:18:49.500-07:002018-06-08T08:18:49.500-07:00Pope Pius II, Multa hic hodie: "But even if y...Pope Pius II, Multa hic hodie: "But even if you believe the Bishop of Rome to be in error, that does not give you the right to judge him, for only God can judge the pope. No mortal man may accuse him of faults. Oh, how wrong is the opinion of many men: though they do not allow a king’s subjects to have any say against the king, they would allow it in the case of the pope even if God has given him power over all mortal men. Those stupid men are unconcerned that the Holy Apostolic Church has, from Saint Peter to this day, never been heard to teach anything that is contrary to orthodox faith. This privilege it has received from the Lord that it shall never succumb to wrong teachings for the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Let this suffice concerning your praise of the Apostolic See."Papal Loyalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03085584650911093764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-40662542496408531712018-06-05T16:05:32.710-07:002018-06-05T16:05:32.710-07:00@George L,
Well at least you are consistent in bl...@George L,<br /><br />Well at least you are consistent in blaming Pope St Paul VI. <br />I am not a big believer in the myth of the "good old days".<br /><br />Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-16480400854018056222018-06-05T16:01:58.380-07:002018-06-05T16:01:58.380-07:00@Anon
What confusion is the Pope causing in regard...@Anon<br />What confusion is the Pope causing in regard to abortion in Ireland? You are all over the place.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-14585689019636010922018-06-03T17:53:13.001-07:002018-06-03T17:53:13.001-07:00Humility is to recognize that all things are from ...Humility is to recognize that all things are from God, no virtue is by yourself alone. Anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11122746359465351676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-66214196177529151182018-06-03T17:40:49.968-07:002018-06-03T17:40:49.968-07:00SoY, yes, I do blame Paul VI. I think he did what ...SoY, yes, I do blame Paul VI. I think he did what Francis seems to be doing, let the libs run wild. And note, this fact is one reason I do have faith in the Holy Ghost's role here; despite being, IMO, a rotten Pope, he nonetheless held on Humanae Vitae. That doesn't change the fact that on his watch, with his bishops, the Church in America positively encouraged abandonment of the faith. (And it does seem to me that much of the child abuse scandal seems to lie at the door of "enlightened" bishops.)<br /><br />A bit of context: I was raised Episcopalian, and for decades defended Anglicanism. One motive for doing so is that, when I was young, it appeared that both were swirling down the same whirlpool, with Catholicism just a bit behind Anglicanism in selling out. Then JPII and B-16 were part of what changed my mind. (There were other, independent factors, which convinced me I was wrong anyway. But they undoubtedly helped there.)<br /><br />But from day one I've believed that the sedes are wrong. Even as an Anglican, I used to argue with them, that what they are doing is, at best, making the case for Orthodoxy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-10306935333173262772018-06-03T03:27:11.683-07:002018-06-03T03:27:11.683-07:00Ben, who said the problems in Ireland don't pr...Ben, who said the problems in Ireland don't predayp Francis? And you're calling others disingenuous. The point was Francis was causing this confusion and didn't get publicly involved in the Irish referendum debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-9883978209499578622018-06-02T08:46:11.274-07:002018-06-02T08:46:11.274-07:00@George L (not George R the Sede. there is nothin...@George L (not George R the Sede. there is nothing to say to a Protestant with Rosary beads. I will address my fellow Catholics.)<br /><br />> The 70s were very different; the notion that The Church mattered was dying out, and the papacy did not, in 1978, have the prestige JPII gained for it later.<br /><br />Which if we are being consistent is kind of an indictment of St Paul VI, St John XXIII and Pius XII is it not? Which is my point. Do you blame these men? Again, my point. I say it's not that simple.<br /><br />>It's a reasonable question what Francis tried to avert this. Note, that doesn't mean I know the answer, but that it's worth asking. <br /><br />Here I would defer to Saint& Scholars' on the ground front line testimony.<br /><br />Other then that I might say we are mostly in agreement.Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-92175670066694757212018-06-02T08:30:51.966-07:002018-06-02T08:30:51.966-07:00@Anon
>Except I didn't blame him, if you ...@Anon <br /><br />>Except I didn't blame him, if you mean I said or implied it was his doing alone or even for the most part.<br /><br />Then you mean to partially blame him. On this I say he gets no blame. Ireland is a problem that has existed long before he became Pope. Don't be disingenuous it is unbecoming. <br /><br />>I just said he would have been better to show leadership in Ireland than causing confusion about Church doctrine.<br /><br />One area Pope Francis has not shown confusion or lack of leadership is his stance on Abortion. He has been super clear on it from the get go even if his views on Communion are obscure or his views on Capital Punishment are likely erroneous.<br />As Saints& Scholars has pointed out the anti-Catholicism and unpopularity of the Church in Ireland runs deep. One might even suggest the Pro-aborts road that horse to victory.<br /><br />> Yours isn't a principled defense. It is just relying fallacies for the sake of defending the Pope at all costs. Not cool.<br /><br />No sir it is the realization that if one is going to criticize the successor to Peter then one has to be beyond reproach and above board to do it right. I note too many SSPX sympathizers and Sede's like George R take advantage of the crisis in the Church to promote their errors. I insist on being Fair to him at all costs and I will never apologize for that. Ever!<br /><br />>To be frank, throughout this combox you have come across as desperate to defend Pope Francis at all costs.<br /><br />This sounds like the refrain of the kneejerk Pope basher who for some mad reason thinks they are above criticism but canna dish it out at will to others? <br /><br />>It isn't a very dignified look.<br /><br />What care I for your personal standards of "dignity"? I would rather be fair to the Pope at all costs even if he didn't return the favor. He is the Pope. The sweet Christ on Earth and that is the end of it. <br />How you think you can effectively give critical feedback without being fair is a mystery?Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-50148418377822680972018-05-29T10:02:59.064-07:002018-05-29T10:02:59.064-07:00Amen!Amen!Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-72814236932755486942018-05-29T09:57:08.141-07:002018-05-29T09:57:08.141-07:00St Patrick and St John Paul II pray for
Éireann a...St Patrick and St John Paul II pray for <br />Éireann and America.<br /><br />Amen!Son of Ya'Kovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05645132954231868592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-65562109521471031762018-05-29T00:43:28.048-07:002018-05-29T00:43:28.048-07:00Well the scripture passage relating to to punishin...Well the scripture passage relating to to punishing children (not holding back the stick... can't remember it exactly) I have always taken as a metaphor for discipline not the means through which one must discipline.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-5044040523613129332018-05-28T11:58:05.600-07:002018-05-28T11:58:05.600-07:00I know he is opposed in practice and that it isn&#...I know he is opposed in practice and that it isn't necessary in order to discipline children. "The idea is ot to fail to punish, nut to obviate the need for punishment". I think it is not available for catholics to say that is morally wrong given Scripture, something like capital punishment and torture, etc.Jaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15636155049496953832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-79756543042921573102018-05-28T01:40:57.454-07:002018-05-28T01:40:57.454-07:00St. John Bosco had some interesting views on this ...St. John Bosco had some interesting views on this matter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-16169358529925019032018-05-27T12:23:48.411-07:002018-05-27T12:23:48.411-07:00"Fathers have the authority to(...) disciplin..."Fathers have the authority to(...) discipline their children, but this authority is not absolute. ...They may not discipline them with unjust harshness." <br /><br />Does spanking count as "unjust harsness"?Jaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15636155049496953832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-71482073658098346382018-05-27T10:37:40.960-07:002018-05-27T10:37:40.960-07:00If you knew the effort people had to put in order ...If you knew the effort people had to put in order to fight every type of earthly power imaginable you would feel a sense of admiration. Don't heap us all into one pile labelled 'Ireland'. You guys think your politicians and press are bad, well here there is NOTHING to keep their dishonesty in check. <br /><br />If you care about Ireland stop talking about doctrine and nit-picking with the Pope (even if there IS fault), and send people here to re-evangelise this land. From the Land of Saints and Scholarsnoreply@blogger.com