tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post3455265965512544031..comments2024-03-28T03:20:15.940-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Some thoughts on the COVID-19 crisisEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-3577705236025869522020-04-25T12:18:31.634-07:002020-04-25T12:18:31.634-07:00I'm going to go ahead and acknowledge that the...I'm going to go ahead and acknowledge that there is a strong counter-argument to the points I just made, and that is this: some amount of economic disruption was going to happen regardless of government mandated response. I.e., people were going to avoid restaurants, air travel, and crowded events out of fear of the virus, and these changes would have ripple effects through supply chains leading to cascading bankruptcies, etc. This is true, and we can't know how bad that would have been.<br /><br />The point I'm making is that government lockdowns took that problem and magnified it, without any meaningful thought or discussion of the consequences.Alessionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46467611719426244322020-04-25T10:12:30.543-07:002020-04-25T10:12:30.543-07:00Dr. Feser, I love your stuff, but I think you'...Dr. Feser, I love your stuff, but I think you're giving politians an awful lot of benefit of the doubt here, even given the paucity of information available at the time.<br /><br />If we look at the initial decision to shut down the economy, I think we can look at it as a decision based on three interracing variables:<br /><br />(Danger of virus) x (Effectiveness of lockdowns) / (Cost of lockdowns)<br /><br />In this equation, the dangerousness of the virus was assumed to be worst-case-scenario. The effectiveness of the locktowns was totally unknown, sheer guesswork, utterly unscientific (especially so when compared to the possible softer alternatives such as masks, hand-washing, surface sanitizing, etc.). The cost of the lockdowns was so massively underestimated, it was essentially ignored altogether, although any reasonably educated person would know that it was obviously going to be a catastrophic. I say without hesitation that our political leaders were at best culpably ignorant of this, and not suprisingly, because they show regularly by their insane policies that they have no knowledge of economics or human behavior (or if they do, they use it malevolently).<br /><br />The costs of the lockdowns are not merely "economic" in the sense of people losing money. They are causing disruption to every aspect of human life as we know it. The ability to earn a living or run a business. The ability to socialize and recreate. The disruption of supply chains for even the most basic goods and services, including food, medicine, and medical care. The very social fabric is rupturing with citizens turning on each other for the silliest "violations" of draconian orders. The people who imagined you could just "pause" all human activity and restart it in two weeks, or six months, or whatever, are as ignorant as someone who thinks you can pause an airplane mid-flight and then have it resume after ten minutes.<br /><br />But what is far worse than the initial destructive decision is the ongoing decisions being made now that more information is in. The feared overrunning of hospitals didn't occur. More statistics keep coming in day after day showing that the virus is more widespread and less lethal than originally feared, and that the economic devastation continues in ever-widening ripples that nobody even thought of six weeks ago. At this point the decision to lift the lockdowns should be made as decisively and instantly as the initial decision to impose them, but instead the politicians are holding people hostage with vague talk about "phased" re-openings at unspecified times in the future. At this point, it has gone from culpable negligence to deliberate destruction on an unimaginable scale.<br /><br />Nothing I say here is to minimize the death toll and suffering caused by the virus itself. It has been a great scurge on humanity, no doubt a message from God. However, the obsessive focus on this virus is unhealthy and destructive. In the bigger picture, we are all mortals walking around this planet full of dangers. There are things all around us that can kill us any day. Now we have one more. Shutting down civilization because of this is not a rational response.Alessionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-80923302474621746402020-04-18T08:44:38.207-07:002020-04-18T08:44:38.207-07:00@Erik
You reminded me of this old post from Feser...@Erik<br /><br />You reminded me of this old post from Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/06/meyer-and-fusionism.html?m=1<br /><br />Talmidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04267925670235640337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-73885071700182814092020-04-17T07:51:46.522-07:002020-04-17T07:51:46.522-07:00Impoverished,
"Why not just close the Church ...Impoverished,<br />"Why not just close the Church and stop Mass during every flu season?"<br />Because we have flu vaccines available in your local pharmacy or clinic easily accessible by all.<br /><br />Because there are multiple examples of what happens when not enough action is taken against Covid-19, the hospitals get overwhelmed and run out of equipment so the death rate starts to spiral out of control. That doesn't happen during flu season. When the POTUS likened Covid-19 to the flu he lied.<br /><br />How did they keep Boris Johnson alive, and so many others? By treating the symptoms until the patient recovers. Oxygen, ventilators, hydration, anti-fever medicine and techniques. Once the hospital is overwhelmed people start to die from asphyxiation, dehydration, and extreme fever...people who otherwise would not have died will die when the hospital gets overwhelmed.<br /><br />It is ironic in a lamentable and sad way that people go to religious gatherings in part to pray for protection from the virus, only to contract the virus in the process.StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-57587853067307645492020-04-17T07:21:38.776-07:002020-04-17T07:21:38.776-07:00It seems that even in your own definition of freed...It seems that even in your own definition of freedom, (which I agree with) you defeat your own point. I don't begrudge any particular action I am being asked to take (at least for the sake of argument) but I DO begrudge being forced to do so by guys with guns (government.) In other words, freedom, as you yourself defined it, is the capacity to CHOOSE the good, not to have "the good" forced upon you. If "the good" is forced upon you, it, by definition ceases to be virtue. Erikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08388988862902563006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-50875090241961754672020-04-16T17:19:59.921-07:002020-04-16T17:19:59.921-07:00Um...
Did comparison of the contagiousness of the...Um...<br /><br />Did comparison of the contagiousness of the ordinary flu vs. the coronavirus enter anywhere into this calculation?TheLonelyProfessornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-13747317670492458812020-04-16T17:18:21.644-07:002020-04-16T17:18:21.644-07:00Reno's attitude wasn't a considered adopti...Reno's attitude wasn't a considered adoption of a contrarian point of view, due to scientific reasons he found convincing. It was just a contemptuous dismissal of scientific expertise altogether, combined with a inference of nefarious motives.TheLonelyProfessornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-50214764345083676512020-04-16T15:52:47.480-07:002020-04-16T15:52:47.480-07:00Twenty-two million jobs lost, heading toward 20% u...Twenty-two million jobs lost, heading toward 20% unemployment. Trillions of dollars of added debt. And we're nowhere close to H1N1 and other, comparable morbidity and mortality figures.Michael Bondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15547168343087501126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-20039543522785629122020-04-16T13:36:05.501-07:002020-04-16T13:36:05.501-07:00TheLonelyProf...
What about scientists who agreed ...TheLonelyProf...<br />What about scientists who agreed with Reno's stance? Or, Reno's stance that was inline with what other scientists were saying?<br /><br />This sounds like much global warming discussion or overpopulation discussion.<br />Sure, you can find scientist who agree mankind is a bane to the planet and that we're well overpopulate to what the earth can sustain...<br />But you can just as easily find those who disagree.The Impoverished Lastsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-80676265905419629492020-04-16T13:34:02.707-07:002020-04-16T13:34:02.707-07:00Why not just close the Church and stop Mass during...Why not just close the Church and stop Mass during every flu season?<br />You'll definitely be able to save lives, Dr. Feser.<br />Wouldn't it be wise to maybe just close the Church doors end of October and open them up end of May?<br /><br />That would help save thousands of lives.The Impoverished Lastsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46570304115640131962020-04-16T11:28:57.635-07:002020-04-16T11:28:57.635-07:00Yes, there's a legitimate argument that it was...Yes, there's a legitimate argument that it wasn't necessary to close Churches entirely; some Masses, etc., could continue with proper social distancing in place.<br /><br />But Reno was frankly being an ass and was rightly called out on it by the commentators. At one point he even bragged about spitting on the sidewalk and bemoaned how awful it was that someone gave him a nasty look. His entire series was suffused with a smug confidence that he was right and the scientific experts were wrong, and read like a childish temper tantrum that the scientific experts and not he were directing the show.<br /><br /><br />TheLonelyProfessornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-85592664362887491772020-04-16T09:14:08.608-07:002020-04-16T09:14:08.608-07:00Very interesting, Paul, and not surprising. But if...Very interesting, Paul, and not surprising. But if most clergy view the sacraments as "salvation theatre" (as Thomas Pink has described it), then when something serious like a scary pandemic comes along, of course you stop going to the theatre and focus on the real stuff: preserving your mortal skin for as long as possible!David McPikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04997702078077124822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-23503402127547874792020-04-16T08:50:01.612-07:002020-04-16T08:50:01.612-07:00My sympathies are much closer to Reno's than t...My sympathies are much closer to Reno's than to White's. Another 5 million unemployed in the U.S. this week, taking the total to more than 22 million so far. A policy that quarantined the infected and the at risk rather than the healthy (which is what the Old Testament laws indicate) would have been far less damaging.Tim Finlayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04201408382802035324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31298484762128911792020-04-16T08:03:49.856-07:002020-04-16T08:03:49.856-07:00I commend you on your very reasonable position. Th...I commend you on your very reasonable position. This is a complicated issue and needs cool seriousness on both sides. Don Jindrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05550378223563435764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-83956717713824346202020-04-15T11:34:57.677-07:002020-04-15T11:34:57.677-07:00I find myself torn between Reno's view and Fr....I find myself torn between Reno's view and Fr. White's, but I take issue with the "no sacraments" crowd's use of St Charles Borromeo to defend their prohibition of Masses. I read his biographer's (contemporary) account of the plague and St Charles's actions and if you compared the sum of his actions with the debate today, he is much closer to, let's just say, the Reno Camp than the Fr White camp. Fr White mentions that he shut the churches but according to his biography, he shut them for activities other than Mass (Milanese used to walk through them if it was faster than walking through the crowded street). Quarantine was very different in his day: you didn't quarantine at home, you were removed from your house (if you were infected) and you were put in quarantine villages outside the city limits, were you would probably die. This was the city's doing, not St Charles's, though he respected it. He sent priests from all over Italy to those villages to hear confessions, give the last rights, and, yes say Mass and distribute Communion. St Charles went there and did these things PERSONALLY. He did not limit the sacraments, HE MADE THEM MUCH MORE AVAILABLE, including COMMUNION. He encouraged processions, against the wishes of the civil authorities, which went all around the city and ended elbow-to-elbow in the Cathedral. He removed the restrictions for Confirmation so everyone in the city could get it without delay. Like Fr White says, he had had outdoor Masses all throughout the city (so the sick could attend without leaving their homes and get sent to quarantine). Above all, and this is where our bishops unfortunately fall short, IMO, he constantly preached that plagues are chastisements and called his people to repent. He wore sack cloth and ashes and begged everyone else do the same. He even castigated a woman for dressing up in her finest and prophesied her death the next morning. He accurately prophesied the end of the plague, if the people did penance. Yes he took all of the natural precautions recommended at his time - distance and hygiene, etc., but for him it was 99% spiritual and 1% natural. And to think, he's the patron saint of Bishops. Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03441758318631783244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-32303509240903962242020-04-15T08:35:40.803-07:002020-04-15T08:35:40.803-07:00Jeremy,
Definitely worth a read:
https://castali...Jeremy, <br /><br />Definitely worth a read:<br />https://castalia-advisors.com/comparing-the-new-zealand-and-australian-states-responses-to-covid-19/Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579200479132033014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-14199916963862384542020-04-15T01:43:55.453-07:002020-04-15T01:43:55.453-07:00Yeah sure. The same governments that call for wide...Yeah sure. The same governments that call for wide spread abortion, contraception, secularism, marxism, etc, are surely not "radically depraved". Some philosophers live in a parallel universe it seems. Both Aristotle and Aquinas praised common sense, but it seems modernism has blinded many theologians and philosophers to the current state of the catholic church. I always find a similarity among all these intellectuals who are willing to bow down to secularists and ideologically-informed "scientific" reports: they all go to the novus ordo mass and accept the VCII. Dr. Rômulohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850996713959483803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-29911754410066057142020-04-13T15:49:13.364-07:002020-04-13T15:49:13.364-07:00Perhaps one of the most egregious: so far as I hav...Perhaps one of the most egregious: so far as I have heard, people are sometimes denied the last sacraments before death because "only doctors and nurses can go into the room" - such rules are an outrage to Catholic principles both because (a) a priest can be made as safe (or more) than the doctor or nurse, with protective gear, and (b) the dying person's spiritual salvation (if they are in the state of mortal sin) is more urgent and more grave a need than the priest's safety (even granting that we need the priest for OTHER people as well). (Think priests at battlefields ministering to the dying.) <br /> The bishop(s) should be screaming bloody murder (figuratively) at blocking out priests from such situations, and <b>be seen</b> to be upset about it. And, like in KY, raising legal objections to civil orders that DON'T need to be made for safety of the people, and infringe on spiritual needs without due reason. Perhaps if bishops were seen to be doing this, maybe more ordinary folk would accept the standard, usual quarantine stuff that OUGHT to be imposed, and that clergy should support, as being reasonable. <br /><br />In toto, one of the reasons that states are <i>demanding</i> all sorts of limitations, some of which are clearly needed and others of which are clearly not so needed, is that many of them have never really thought through questions like "what should we leave to local discretion, what should we give "urgent warnings about", and what must we make mandatory?" in a crisis of this nature. Because they have not thought through social consequences, including backlash and non-compliance due to poorly FRAMED orders, they are making a hash out of even good measures that need to be issued. Not surprisingly, then, they are also running roughshod over things like how to determine what constitutes "necessary" or "essential" in the economy and in the public welfare. They are running over subsidiarity as if it were a problem to be flattened and plowed to the side of the road, rather than an essential element of social order. Maybe <i>society</i> will survive COVID-19, but it is less clear that subsidiarity will. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-73929468253005001662020-04-13T15:49:02.769-07:002020-04-13T15:49:02.769-07:00As sensible as Fr. White tends to be, he made a fe...As sensible as Fr. White tends to be, he made a few blunders here. For example: <i>The state, then, has a moral obligation to seek to halt or slow the spread of the disease. In requesting a thoroughgoing but temporary quarantine,</i> <br /><br />Well, no, in most places the state isn't "requesting" a quarantine, they are demanding it. The distinction is important to my main point. <br /><br />As valuable as limiting public interaction is and will be in diminishing the impact of the disease, (and, not incidentally, the economic impact of the disease), it is also clear that the economic impact of such limiting, <b>especially in the ways the states have implemented it</b>, will also be significant or severe...or even economy shattering. The underlying problem is - or at least, seems to be - that few if anyone in governor's mansions and their associated ministers of this and that have ever undertaken a thoroughgoing analysis of the <i>downstream effects</i> of this or that individual limiting provision, much less of the whole complex of limiting provisions that have been implemented. Without such an analysis, they can have AT BEST only a WAG (wild-ass guess) at whether their in-the-heat-of-the-moment actions to stem the course of COVID are going to cause less or more damage down the road than any of 30 other pathways might have done. Just to take one small sliver of an issue that nobody seems to be mentioning in the media: however much money is being sent out to those who are out of work because of the shutdowns (mainly through the income tax rolls), that money is unlikely to help out the illegal aliens who are on no income tax rolls and don't pay income tax because they work under the table, and such people, because they have no cash if they don't work, will continue to work (under the table) because they have to. This is but one of a hundred (or thousand) effects not planned for. <br /><br />Without having put in really serious earlier efforts at (what effectively amounts to) war-gaming this or that possible course of action, with not only <i>health</i> officials, but also law-enforcement officials, economic officials, industry leaders, and then real scientists of social action (of which only a few sociologists would qualify) to evaluate, any course of action they take now is likely to be prudent only with respect to the next 3 or 4 weeks or so. It is UNlikely to be well-formed as to effects 8 weeks away, much less 6 months. I's not a lot better than trying to run a submarine 200 meters down with a periscope but no sonar system, and no navigation maps. <br /><br />In that context: the bishops are of course trying to be good citizens as well as trying to minister to their people. But there are a LOT of blunders still occurring. There are a lot of bishops giving way to mandates that they should be standing up to and saying "we won't". For example, there nothing the least bit dangerous about having mass at an outdoor parking lot where everyone stays in their cars. There are <i>absolutely</i> ways to set up confession so that both the priest and penitent stay safe, and so <i>you know</i> they stay safe. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-49048511405435122232020-04-13T12:58:06.553-07:002020-04-13T12:58:06.553-07:00Jeremy,
Yea, Im a kiwi, living in Canada atm.
I ...Jeremy,<br /><br />Yea, Im a kiwi, living in Canada atm.<br /><br />I guess we will see. There are a lot of unknowns, so I guess its tough to make any definitive judgement on it. Billyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14579200479132033014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-66138350442444215182020-04-13T10:04:50.423-07:002020-04-13T10:04:50.423-07:00Oh, a CCP shill. Hi there.Oh, a CCP shill. Hi there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-55699605231911878852020-04-13T06:51:33.243-07:002020-04-13T06:51:33.243-07:00This is simply not true. As Dr. Briggs has pointed...This is simply not true. As Dr. Briggs has pointed out - link above - that's a gross overreaction. And the economoc consequences are ALREADY being felt.Bellomyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13772021462887676959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-36727887330682136742020-04-12T17:01:48.006-07:002020-04-12T17:01:48.006-07:00That's literally what I said....That's literally what I said.... Jeremy Taylornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-52997191286352446422020-04-12T09:19:54.673-07:002020-04-12T09:19:54.673-07:00Jeremy,
"And otherwise, what's the point ...Jeremy,<br />"And otherwise, what's the point of the lock down? "<br />1.Prevent healthcare from being overwhelmed and thus unable to handle covid-19 cases that require oxygen and ventilators and ICU treatment, as well as all the other healthcare needs that keep on coming at the same time. New York City waited too long and their healthcare system is beyond capacity as a result. Caregivers are working double shifts, lack equipment, and are contracting covid-19 themselves.<br /><br />2.Time to ramp up production of masks, ventilators, oxygen, gowns, and other medical equipment needed to treat covid-19 and keep the caregivers safe in the process. The CDC is guilty of lying about masks. You should wear an engineered mask such as an N95 mask continuously in public, but we need time to ramp up that production, so use a home made mask of dense material continuously in public if you cannot obtain an engineered and rated mask.<br /><br />3.Time to ramp up production of tests. Tests, as South Korea has found, are critical to prevention because of the long asymptomatic or mild symptomatic yet contagious stage. With aggressive widespread testing those who test positive can self isolate for some 14 days to prevent spreading the virus.<br /><br />4.Time to communicate how to use the tools and techniques we have, masks, testing, social distancing, remote working and learning and entertainment, and enhanced sanitation. <br /><br />After we get past the peak flattened by the shut downs we can begin to open up places of business that use all the mitigation techniques so people can get back to work. Public beaches, parks, and large gatherings will have to stay closed longer even as we open up businesses so people can earn a living.<br /><br />We will have to maintain use of the whole range of mitigation techniques until a vaccine and/or antiviral drugs are developed and deployed.<br /><br />Long term, we can look forward to covid-19 going the way of measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and chickenpox, eradicated or nearly so, and incorporated into ordinary childhood vaccinations.StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-79606667571888318842020-04-12T07:28:28.854-07:002020-04-12T07:28:28.854-07:00China was tested with no notice yet passed with fl...China was tested with no notice yet passed with flying colours. The west was tested with months notice and the result should shame us all<br />Nothing demonstrates our shallowness more than our ability to acknowledge this simple fact.archeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13594218569980139986noreply@blogger.com