tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post2662809829051651393..comments2024-03-29T02:29:03.388-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: The Church embraces ColumbusEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-34426747396670689542023-10-14T19:09:02.567-07:002023-10-14T19:09:02.567-07:00In attacking Columbus, Antifa tries to finish what...In attacking Columbus, Antifa tries to finish what the Klan started http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/347955-in-attacking-columbus-antifa-protesters-try-to-finish-what#.WdyUNWF1sB4.twitteralfonsohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13598403498444747483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-81745528969881399142020-10-27T21:28:46.560-07:002020-10-27T21:28:46.560-07:00Columbus was indeed a very great navigator. If yo...Columbus was indeed a very great navigator. If you knew anything about how difficult navigation was in the 15th century you would understand that. Hint: no GPS.<br /><br />Columbus discovered America. Period. If you don't know that then you don't know what the word "discover" means either.<br /><br />And please spare me stories about Native Americans, Vikings, a great Chinese fleet, and South American potatoes on Pacific islands.<br /><br />What made Columbus a great navigator was his whole system of navigational and dead reckoning techniques combined with extensive record keeping.<br /><br />Not only could Columbus track his way West, but he knew how to get back again, accurately, and this was long before the great longitude problem had been solved with seagoing chronometers. <br /><br />No prior human being had accomplished the great feat of navigating from the Eurasian land mass to the American land mass and back again with such precision and such record keeping as to make the discovery publishable and repeatable by many.<br /><br />Columbus achieved one of the greatest feats of history making navigation of all time.StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31997932904519107092020-10-26T18:11:48.848-07:002020-10-26T18:11:48.848-07:00Well, the Great Navigator was so great that we hav...Well, the Great Navigator was so great that we have to specify whether we mean Cherokee type Indian or Bombay type Indian because he did not know what hemisphere he was in.Tom Mazanechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16909029541861427810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-82484205707705783412020-10-22T11:18:01.206-07:002020-10-22T11:18:01.206-07:00Holey moly, that First Things article is a disaste...Holey moly, that First Things article is a disaster area. The central premise that those values came from Christianity is indeed true. But much of the rest is modern fluff.<br /><br />He does mention Nietzsche, but perhaps ought to have paid more attention to the fact that Nietzsche held it to be idolatrous to try to keep a moral system without a religion, which undermines his apparent project of spreading Christian morals while abandoning the religion.LugNuts22https://disqus.com/by/LugNuts22noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-64368053750380495392020-10-22T05:06:53.732-07:002020-10-22T05:06:53.732-07:00Even in his lifetime Columbus was punished by the ...Even in his lifetime Columbus was punished by the government for what he had done. We celebrate what was achieved during three hundred years of good government, and its legacy today. Miguel Cervantesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-61578133891788918312020-10-21T16:05:13.945-07:002020-10-21T16:05:13.945-07:00Huh? Columbus didn't enslave the Indians? He p...Huh? Columbus didn't enslave the Indians? He personally brought back thousands of slaves to Spain. What are you on about? He forced the ones in Hispanola to work the gold mines for no compensation, under penalty of death or mutilation if they refused. What do you call that?<br /><br />This thread has been... remarkable. I think I will take a mental health break.Screwtape Jenkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13874779097608201662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-16833018313864838352020-10-21T16:00:34.103-07:002020-10-21T16:00:34.103-07:00I would love some links or some citations about th...I would love some links or some citations about this. My understanding is that historians are nearly unanimous that Columbus is very likely guilty of most of the major crimes attributed to him.Screwtape Jenkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13874779097608201662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-13287467595023495872020-10-21T15:55:39.326-07:002020-10-21T15:55:39.326-07:00And unless I'm missing something, this thread ...And unless I'm missing something, this thread is also remarkably short of evidence that Columbus is, in fact, not guilty of the many crimes attributed to him. Did he not force every native on the island to bring him a quota of gold, on penalty of amputating their limbs if they failed? Did he not suggest that the natives could be easily enslaved and exploited -including the young girls? As I recall, he wrote that himself in a letter back to Spain. Did he not start the process that depopulated the island of Hispanola by HALF within just a few decades?<br /><br />But eventually some of those slaughtered souls were brought to Christ, so we should forget all of this and celebrate this man?<br /><br />This forum has jumped the shark.Screwtape Jenkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13874779097608201662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-85076683272802710062020-10-21T15:49:08.311-07:002020-10-21T15:49:08.311-07:00"Notice what the views of Las Casas, Leo XIII..."Notice what the views of Las Casas, Leo XIII, and John Paul II have in common – the conviction that the Catholic faith is true. And if it is true, then the benefits of Columbus’s bringing of Christianity to the New World outweigh everything else, for they concern the eternal salvation of souls."<br /><br />So if Islam is true, then were Muslims to violently overthrow Europe and North America, impose Sharia Law and then slaughter, enslave, exploit, and opress a good number of us, the good of saving our souls would outweigh *everything* else?<br /><br />This also makes the remarkable assumption that God is not capable of saving these people except by allowing their exploitation, slaughter, rape, and oppression, which, if true, would be a good enough reason for these people not to worship him. Luckily, most of us who were on the receiving end of colonialism realize God is not as much of an impotent, amoral madman as the colonizers make him out to be in their attempts to excuse their transgressions as "necessary evils." Screwtape Jenkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13874779097608201662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-80031288019428351092020-10-16T09:42:41.372-07:002020-10-16T09:42:41.372-07:00I had in mind the usual summary of Spanish presenc...I had in mind the usual summary of Spanish presence in the Americas: brutal conquest,immediately followed by "liberation". <br />It would be far-fetched to describe the condition of the Indians as slavery, or even feudalism. The encomienda and repartimiento systems may have seemed like the old corvee, but were a continuation of the indigenous mita of the Incas and other practices elsewhere. This government requirement of a certain number of labourers per community within given periods of time still left indigenous peoples on their own lands and self-governing. <br /><br />In the Americas and the Philippines, the indigenous population was settled in reducciones, model towns which established a new sacred geography and helped to break links to the pagan past. They encouraged the growth of local self-government and corporate economic activity. This was Catholic "social engineering", and very successful. The eight million indians (the population remaining after the diseases and social disorganisation of the conquest period) became fully fledged members of the new civilisation. What happened to those West Africans transported to the colonies of other empires bears no relation to this. <br /><br />Slaves running away from the British colonies in the 17th. and 18th centuries were allowed to found the town and fortress of Santa Teresa in Florida as free men, the only conditions being the embrace of the Faith and loyalty to the king. They formed units within the Spanish forces to drive away attacks by the English army and colonists from Georgia. The defects of the Spanish system were outweighed by its progressive laws,(not always observed) and the results obtained.Miguel Cervantesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-22721537709672388882020-10-15T14:19:15.304-07:002020-10-15T14:19:15.304-07:00What about 'colonialism' is supposed to be...What about 'colonialism' is supposed to be being compared to Nazi rule and Nazi plans for their Eastern occupied territories? The colonial era lasted about 480 years and covered pretty much all of the world in one way or another so it's worth asking. Comparing this period and this territorial extent to Nazi Germany does not sound serious, in many cases it would be defamation or a reversal of the truth, pure polemic or psy-ops stuff. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-8880739605991938012020-10-15T09:56:23.418-07:002020-10-15T09:56:23.418-07:00The veracity of the grave allegations brought agai...The veracity of the grave allegations brought against Columbus by Francisco de Bobadilla are disputed by some historians as exaggerated or even partly fictitious, for Bobadilla was angling for Columbus' job -- and then when he got it Bobadilla went on to do the same kinds of things that his investigation report accuses Columbus of doing. Due to Bobadilla's report Columbus and his brother were arrested and imprisoned, but the king and queen heard their appeal and restored their wealth. They did not restore Columbus as governor, though, but instead agreed to fund his last voyage.Confiteborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17951083063448447552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-53369136196573221192020-10-15T08:53:00.334-07:002020-10-15T08:53:00.334-07:00I'm sorry, Ed, but it's time to let go of ...I'm sorry, Ed, but it's time to let go of Columbus. Amerigo Vespucci would make a much better hero.<br /><br />From <i>The Guardian</i> ("Lost document reveals Columbus as tyrant of the Caribbean," 7 August 2006):<br /><br />QUOTE <br /><br />As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on the first Spanish colony in the Americas, in what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic. Punishments included cutting off people's ears and noses, parading women naked through the streets and selling them into slavery.<br /><br />"Columbus' government was characterised by a form of tyranny," Consuelo Varela, a Spanish historian who has seen the document, told journalists.<br /><br />One man caught stealing corn had his nose and ears cut off, was placed in shackles and was then auctioned off as a slave. A woman who dared to suggest that Columbus was of lowly birth was punished by his brother Bartolomé, who had also travelled to the Caribbean. She was stripped naked and paraded around the colony on the back of a mule.<br /><br />"Bartolomé ordered that her tongue be cut out," said Ms Varela. "Christopher congratulated him for defending the family."<br /><br />END QUOTE<br /><br />From <i>The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America</i> (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, N.Y., 2016) by Andrés Reséndez:<br /><br />"Left to his own devices, the great discoverer would have turned the Caribbean into another Guinea...<br /><br />As Columbus kept insisting on his plans of enslavement and his men continued to ship Indian slaves in one guise or another, [Queen] Isabella became exasperated. All along she had been extremely supportive of the Admiral. But by 1499, when she learned of the arrival of yet more slaves, she famously exploded: 'Who is this Columbus who dares to give out my vassals as slaves?' Isabella and Ferdinand freed many Indians and, astonishingly, mandated that many of them be returned to the New World." (pp. 25, 26, 28)<br /><br />Finally, Historian James W. Loewen asserts that "Columbus not only sent the first slaves across the Atlantic, he probably sent more slaves—about five thousand—than any other individual." (<i>Lies My Teacher Told Me</i>. The New Press. pp. 57–58.)<br /><br />You write that the benefits of Columbus’s bringing of Christianity to the New World outweigh everything else, for they concern the eternal salvation of souls." But Columbus was keener on enslaving Indians than catechizing them, and even by the standards of his day, he was avaricious. Americans deserve a better hero.Vincent Torleyhttp://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/index.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-71773870045287482592020-10-15T07:15:15.190-07:002020-10-15T07:15:15.190-07:00AKG
"No good came out of colonialism."
R...AKG<br />"No good came out of colonialism."<br />Really? I kind of like living in the USA.<br /><br />I notice that not many folks of any color wish to go live in their ancestral lands.<br /><br />I also notice that Native Americans, with their often vast and semi-autonomous lands virtually always prefer to live in modern houses and drive modern cars and use modern appliances, as opposed to living in huts or tents or igloos, walking (horses are strictly European so not acceptable), living a hunter gatherer lifestyle.<br /><br />If being a hunter gatherer disconnected from modernity and connected to nature is so wonderful why don't any Native Americans, who have the land and resources to do so, live that way?StardustyPsychehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12493629973262220492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-84687259886130681042020-10-14T23:47:25.226-07:002020-10-14T23:47:25.226-07:00You are aware that colonizers raped, killed, tortu...You are aware that colonizers raped, killed, tortured, mutilated, enslaved, and made colonized people second class citizens and sought to eradicate languages, ways of lives, and made colonized people feel inferior simply because of who they were. It was a system based on racism, and domination. Defending it is akin to defending the trans-atlantic slave trade, or Nazi Germany.<br /><br />Colonizers did not defend the human rights of those they colonized. Look at Leopold of Belgium who did this: https://allthatsinteresting.com/king-leopold-ii-congo<br /><br />https://www.ranker.com/list/worst-colonial-european-regimes/melissa-sartore<br /><br />https://historycollection.com/10-atrocities-committed-by-the-british-empire-that-they-would-like-to-erase-from-history-books/<br /><br />Also as if indigenous and colonized people didn't have their own forms of philosophy, math, etc (thanks for subtly implying the alleged lack of civilization/"savagery" among colonized people) . Tell me have you seriously studied the culture of pre-colonized people and their philosophies etc? Or the history of colonialism?<br /><br />AKGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14269580033007038839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-11644407672965335622020-10-14T20:37:17.638-07:002020-10-14T20:37:17.638-07:00"No good came out of colonialism"
Yes, ..."No good came out of colonialism"<br /><br />Yes, it did. The opportunity of treating such people with Western medicine (which, yes, was far more advanced and is way more useful); defenses of certain basic human rights which were regularly violated by different colonized peoples; their exposure to higher philosophy, mathematics, science, more advanced technology, etc.<br /><br />Now, colonialism wasn't the way to go, and you may argue that the goods don't outweigh or justify the evils. But to say it brought no goods whatsoever is a lie. We need subtlety. Atnohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13138424784532839636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-19815508484109742722020-10-14T17:13:27.153-07:002020-10-14T17:13:27.153-07:00"Christopher Columbus, Mariner" by Samue..."Christopher Columbus, Mariner" by Samuel Eliot Morison. He's written a bunch about Columbus. But this book is a condensation of his other works.Ethannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-46835922055285639982020-10-14T17:05:10.987-07:002020-10-14T17:05:10.987-07:00What do "genes" have to do with the &quo...What do "genes" have to do with the "genocide"? The latter comes from the Greek, "genos", which is race. My point was that Columbus did not come over saying "we're going to eradicate that whole group over there". Even if he had intended to enslave the Indians (which he didn't), enslavement does not fall under the term "genocide". Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-44981502675336642962020-10-14T16:59:58.024-07:002020-10-14T16:59:58.024-07:00The liberal interpretation of Spanish settlement p...<i>The liberal interpretation of Spanish settlement portrays it as some kind of bloody conquest lasting three hundred years. </i> <br /><br />I think, Miguel, that the liberal portrayal is of a bloody conquest <i>followed by centuries of oppressive slavery</i> that involved, significantly, ongoing atrocities, even if not on a coordinated continent-wide scale like the conquest. The exact degree to which the actual facts match the notion of "slavery" proper (and not, say, feudal relationships) may be debated and may have varied over time and location, but that there were atrocities, and conditions aligning quite well with "slavery" in SOME cases, would be much easier to establish. Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-38345488524993048822020-10-14T16:50:32.571-07:002020-10-14T16:50:32.571-07:00What do "genes" have to do with the &quo...What do "genes" have to do with the "genocide"? The latter comes from the Greek, "genos", which is race. My point was that Columbus did not come over saying "we're going to eradicate that whole group over there". Even if he had intended to enslave the Indians (which he didn't), enslavement does not fall under the term "genocide". Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07159134209092031897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-31327612608454102362020-10-14T12:06:53.062-07:002020-10-14T12:06:53.062-07:00Any book recommendations on Columbus? Any book recommendations on Columbus? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02361905724848359039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-47900513325167960072020-10-14T03:38:17.763-07:002020-10-14T03:38:17.763-07:00Yes. The Rwandan genocide was not about genetics. ...Yes. The Rwandan genocide was not about genetics. Also the genocide the Iroquois committed against other tribes.HolyKnowinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109864288446595298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-386862632797392162020-10-14T01:57:43.928-07:002020-10-14T01:57:43.928-07:00Miguel Cervantes,
Intresting that does make sense...Miguel Cervantes,<br /><br />Intresting that does make sense since we are talking muskets and cannons vs spears. Like the Iraq war did even one Abrams get destroyed? <br /><br />They are more intrested in a narrative it seems.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06371150838441461067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-60738937469156234472020-10-14T01:20:24.938-07:002020-10-14T01:20:24.938-07:00Tony,
Can a people that were not aware of genes b...Tony,<br /><br />Can a people that were not aware of genes be accused of genocide? Hitler well knew and was intrested in eliminating "bad genes." <br /><br />As well they would have had no idea about how deadly the germs would be. <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06371150838441461067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-55310594722940143842020-10-13T23:33:53.699-07:002020-10-13T23:33:53.699-07:00The liberal interpretation of Spanish settlement p...The liberal interpretation of Spanish settlement portrays it as some kind of bloody conquest lasting three hundred years. The truth is that the conquest of the American kingdoms was the work of private expeditions lasting a few years, and ignores the "second conquest" by priests and royal functionaries, which created the Christian civilisation of the Americas. No doubt three hundred years of peace and prosperity is less newsworthy, but there it is. The crown was well aware of the circumstances involved in the conquests and an ordinance was enacted in the 1570s forbidding further conquests. Miguel Cervantesnoreply@blogger.com