tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post1123873156599573628..comments2024-03-29T04:58:54.003-07:00Comments on Edward Feser: Deadly unseriousEdward Feserhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13643921537838616224noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-86612202946691772142015-04-12T03:08:11.820-07:002015-04-12T03:08:11.820-07:00Since it is still, when this thread is all of four...Since it is still, when this thread is all of four years old, physically possible to reply, I'm assuming it is morally allowable to do so - so here goes: <br /><br />"It's not clear how one might say that the capital punishment might be abolished on the one hand, but then say that it is an act of obedience to a commandment of the Decalogue on the other."<br /><br />## A possible solution might be, to say that, although the availability & use of the DP are both goods, the abolition of the DP would be - or, in principle, is - an even greater good.<br /><br />Such a solution would need to be properly "worked up": the goods served by the abolition of the DP, by the use of it, and by the having it available, would need to be articulated, & so would the grounds of them - but such an argument could be made.<br /><br />The question is one of doctrinal development, Biblical exegesis, & traditional teaching; and involves taking a position on (for example) whether Catholic teaching on (in this case) the DP is a criterion for judging that which was previous to it; or whether the older teaching is a criterion for that which came after it. <br /><br />There is also the strictly Christian issue of whether, no matter how doctrinally irreproachable the Catholic teaching on the DP may be, it reflects the Will of Christ as clearly as it ought to. A purely intellectual solution to the question of those two quotations is not enough; a fully Christian solution has to satisfy the whole of man, not the intellect alone. James https://www.blogger.com/profile/10778088696977639132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-20285529722681392842011-04-10T04:42:44.339-07:002011-04-10T04:42:44.339-07:00If the time should ever come when the infliction o...<i>If the time should ever come when the infliction of less severe penalties will suffice to punish crime and safeguard life and property, then capital punishment should be abolished, but that time does not seem to be at hand yet.</i><br /><br />How does one square this paragraph with the teaching of the Roman Catechism that "[t]he just use of this power [of execution], far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder"? It's not clear how one might say that the capital punishment might be abolished on the one hand, but then say that it is an act of obedience to a commandment of the Decalogue on the other.dcshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18424510747759223459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-21685014771803497222011-04-10T04:34:30.738-07:002011-04-10T04:34:30.738-07:00By the same token, capital punishment would surely...<i>By the same token, capital punishment would surely be justifiable in principle as a way of “defending society” if it has significant deterrence value. Of course, whether it really does have such value is a matter of controversy.</i><br /><br />But it does have a deterrence value -- the criminal who is executed will never commit a crime again, which is more than one can say about criminals who are imprisoned (even if for "life" - they can still engage in acts of violence against guards and fellow prisoners).dcshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18424510747759223459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-26611669974428786042011-04-08T04:16:34.027-07:002011-04-08T04:16:34.027-07:00oops, should be "progressives," not &quo...oops, should be "progressives," not "progressively"Gregory B. Sadlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02197307174003462308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-43663907536766606052011-04-08T04:13:03.952-07:002011-04-08T04:13:03.952-07:00For six years, I taught Philosophy and Religious s...For six years, I taught Philosophy and Religious studies classes full-time in a maximum security prison, the prison where executions for that state were in fact carried out. My students had a lot to say and a number of questions about capital punishment, and we discussed it thematically at times -- e.g. as part of ethics classes -- or when the issue came up. I thought I might contribute to this excellent post and interesting commentary conversation what some of their thoughts were. <br /><br />I understand from the start that my experience -- and the voices I remember -- might well be unrepresentative. But better to have at least that than to pretend to argue on their parts and behalf. One of the open secrets about prison life and public awareness is this: like so many others, prisoners are aware of the effects of their words on their audience, and often tell people what they so evidently want to hear. So anti-capital punishment liberal volunteers get "yes, it is terrible, we're all victims, so many of us are innocent. . ." I tend to distrust reporters' accounts of prisoner's sentiments as well, since I know from my own conversations with the guys I taught not only that many prisoners play a type for them, and give them the "information" they think they want, but that even when prisoners are candid, editing often skews the picture (one of my best students, on MSNBC Lockup, was intensely dissatisfied with how his piece turned out).<br /><br />What I found in conversations was that what progressively would call a "reactionary" -- but I would say realistic, commonsensical, and traditional -- mindset was most common on capital punishment. Most of the prisoners were not happy with particular conditions of the prison and the DOC, but saw the system as just overall -- and looking at the guy next to them, or often looking inside or at their past, needed. And, capital punishment was part of the state's spectrum of legitimate responses. They were much less interested in esoteric statistical arguments about deterrence and much more by a justice-centered approach to the matter.<br /><br />So I don't run out of space, I'll just mention two more specific discussions. When I first arrived at that prison, three inmates on Death Row coordinated a complex plan and killed a fourth, and the moral status of that provoked excellent -- because insightful and well-argued -- discussion afterwards. I also had students every semester who raised the canard: how can you be for capital punishment when you're against abortion -- and nearly every time, I could allow other students in the class to articulate excellent answers to that question.Gregory B. Sadlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02197307174003462308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-10835910704925144852011-04-07T21:21:25.333-07:002011-04-07T21:21:25.333-07:00@Anon: "W4," or "What's Wrong w...@Anon: "W4," or "What's Wrong with the World," is a conservative blog to wich Dr. Feser contributes. It's on his blogroll, if you want to check it out.Leohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297966783686086577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-90450816953494991832011-04-07T11:24:25.465-07:002011-04-07T11:24:25.465-07:00Thanks, Solomon's! I'll check it out.Thanks, Solomon's! I'll check it out.Roy IVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15463605944132111455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-37721401922279674712011-04-06T23:11:23.335-07:002011-04-06T23:11:23.335-07:00Hey Roy IV,
I haven't read this yet, and I do...Hey Roy IV,<br /><br />I haven't read this yet, and I don't know if it will help, but the title is promising!<br /><br />http://www.ideasinactiontv.com/tcs_daily/2004/07/the-trouble-with-libertarianism.htmlSolomon's Chariotshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627192487882198716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-1718287576804427912011-04-06T22:52:38.572-07:002011-04-06T22:52:38.572-07:00Hey, Tony, what's "W4?"Hey, Tony, what's "W4?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-86865111896291914352011-04-06T16:06:49.818-07:002011-04-06T16:06:49.818-07:00Charles, I think that number 2 is not merely a pru...Charles, I think that number 2 is not merely a prudential judgment call that can be mistaken, it has a character as to be inherently mis-aligned: it seems directly opposed to Genesis 9:6. God said: <i> "Whosoever shall shed man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for man was made to the image of God" </i> <br /><br />God seems to be testifying that the death penalty UPHOLDS the sanctity of life. I have yet to hear a single argument from a Church authority that attempts in any way to disparage that conclusion. Plenty that <i>ignore</i> it, none that take it head on and try to dismantle it.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-44516724369887102792011-04-06T16:00:31.184-07:002011-04-06T16:00:31.184-07:00Anonymous, Ed DOES go after those sorts, both here...Anonymous, Ed DOES go after those sorts, both here, and at another website that he participates in, W4. Big time on Islam, not quite so much on Westboro Baptist, but then they are small potatoes. Also, to some extent, at hypocritical conservatives and hypocritical Catholics.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-37387814151247222752011-04-06T10:50:03.964-07:002011-04-06T10:50:03.964-07:00This is a great blog post. I am considering Cathol...This is a great blog post. I am considering Catholicism, and the topic of capital punishment has been on my mind.<br /><br />Here is a suggestion that I hope Ed and/or his commenters take to heart: you guys seem to like to contrast yourselves with atheists, secularists, and liberals, but why not criticize your fellow theists that make you look bad? I know this blog has a history of going after ID'ers, but that is not what I mean. What I mean are people like the Westboro Baptist Church. It may seem so obvious to you that you are so different from them, but for the irreligious, it is not so obvious. In fact, when they think of Christians, especially American Christians, they think of the WBC.<br /><br />Now, imagine writers like Feser drawing from the richness of Catholicism to bear upon the message and tactics of the WBC - that is a contrast worth making, don't you think?<br /><br />Anyway, the WBC is an easy example. But I am also thinking of Islam. If you guys really are serious about belief in God, then it should be imperative that you go after these rascals that commit shenanigans because of a misunderstanding of God. I would think it far more important than go after atheists, secularists, and liberals.<br /><br />Thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-12576473777940760462011-04-06T07:47:33.023-07:002011-04-06T07:47:33.023-07:00Dr. Feser, I hate to be off topic but I was just w...Dr. Feser, I hate to be off topic but I was just wondering if you've seen the following recently-published book by Ric Machuga: <i>Life, the Universe, and Everything: An Aristotelian Philosophy for a Scientific Age</i>, and, if so, what your thoughts are concerning it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-72683246737256447992011-04-06T06:18:11.965-07:002011-04-06T06:18:11.965-07:00I have struggled to square the teaching of JP2 in ...I have struggled to square the teaching of JP2 in Evangelium Vitae with Catholic tradition. I don't think it is as simple as you put it. I have concluded that the key to reconciling EV is development in the Church's teaching about Christians and the modern secular state. I think JP2's argument can be summarized as follows: 1)Christians have a duty to promote the culture of life outside the bounds of the institutional church 2) the death penalty undermines the culture of life 3) viable alternatives to the death penalty to protect society exist and therefore 4)the application of the death penalty is rarely if ever justifiable. Number 1 seems to be the innovation as it addresses the relationship of Christians to the state in a world where a Christian state does not exist, is not attainable and perhaps is undesirable. Number 2 is a prudential judgment and as such is not binding on the faithful unless the Magisterium clearly makes it binding. Number 3 seems to be an empirical statement that to me seems questionable. Number 4 is a logical conclusion from premises that are arguable. None of this argument addresses the right of the state to execute or limits it in any way.Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00607057013050715435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-47561109877565833572011-04-06T05:38:20.440-07:002011-04-06T05:38:20.440-07:00"I guess I want to know the reasons that Ed &..."I guess I want to know the reasons that Ed "converted" from libertarianism."<br /><br />Ditto. I find conservatism appealing, but it seems a tough case to make.Roy IVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15463605944132111455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-48441556637512550902011-04-05T13:10:45.880-07:002011-04-05T13:10:45.880-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-28697278328926078812011-04-05T10:45:24.617-07:002011-04-05T10:45:24.617-07:00"The Catholic Church teaches that those guilt..."The Catholic Church teaches that those guilty of the most serious crimes, such as murder, have forfeited their <b>right</b> to life."<br /><br />Why do you put it in terms of a "right"? Aquinas (as far as I remember) never mentions rights in his discussion of capital punishment; he argues from the common good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-11619656677874882242011-04-05T10:18:18.204-07:002011-04-05T10:18:18.204-07:00mpresley said...
" It is an idea that a p...mpresley said...<br /><br />" It is an idea that a philosophy professor once raised in class, many years ago as he grappled with the morals of execution. I personally think that banishment would be worse than death, but I'm not a murderer."<br /><br /><br />Many ordinary people, and probably even some sociopaths who view others as mere resources or the means of self-gratification, likely would too.<br /><br />But then the angle we [me I guess] are mooting in response to your banishment idea, was not based on a notion of justice, retributive or otherwise, as considered by Mr. Feser.<br /><br />But rather, the idea of simply putting the capital offender permanently out of the way, without resorting to man-killing, or the presumable expense and trouble attendant with perpetual incarceration.<br /><br />As a practical matter I don't know where you actually could put them that would be beyond the potential reach of either criminal associates, or determined Quakers in row boats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-92209665219906306202011-04-05T07:33:58.147-07:002011-04-05T07:33:58.147-07:00Ed, you have expressed the correct interpretation ...Ed, you have expressed the correct interpretation of John Paul II's statements on capital punishment. Your clarification of the issue is very helpful indeed.<em>Actus Essendi</em>http://aquinasactusessendi.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-79802859000959894002011-04-05T06:35:26.328-07:002011-04-05T06:35:26.328-07:00Anonymous said...
One Brow, how accurate were tho...Anonymous said... <br /><i>One Brow, how accurate were those stats? </i><br /><br />They were accepted by the previous and current governor. I have not done details research into the individual cases.<br /><br /><i>Secondly, yes perhaps there is rot in the system (corruption, incompetence, malice etc.) but that does not mean that a discussion of natural law cannot be serious. </i><br /><br />The discussion can be serious, when it also accounts for the results of such incompetence and malice in its analysis. I'm not opposed to the death penalty in the abstract, but in this country its use is too unreliable and unfair.<br /><br /><i>Everything one does is best effort, eg. an airline will try their best to ...</i><br /><br />Airlines don't have immunity if they deliberately ignore safety. Most prosecutors have criminal and civil immunity for malfeasance.<br /><br />But that analogy is a different issue. Regardless of reason, the imposition of the death penaltyin the United States means innocent people will die. I don't thihnk you can have a serious discussion on the morality of the death penalty without weighing that inevitability.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-15964485184363256872011-04-05T05:26:18.600-07:002011-04-05T05:26:18.600-07:00One Brow, a discussion of the natural law aspect o...One Brow, a discussion of the natural law aspect of punishment, and its reflection in one area, capital punishment, cannot be called "unserious" merely because we have not (yet) also talked about false positives in conviction rates. I grant you that a thorough and total discussion of punishment (and not just capital punishment) would have to entail such a discussion, but it is impossible to do that total discussion all at once, you have to focus on one aspect at a time, in its proper order. <br /><br />False conviction rates are not a problem solely for the death penalty cases. It is a serious concern for other cases also. If we sentence a man to death, and execute him, and then it turns out that he was innocent, can we give him back his life? Of course not. If we sentence a man to life in prison, he spends 30 years there, and then we find out he was innocent, then what? Can we give him back his 30 years, his wife and the family he and his wife would have had? Can we give him back his profession? Can we restore to him all the friends and acquaintances who have now moved on? Of course not. <br /><br />Even more to the point, if a careful review of the case file does not reveal anything that stands out as a specific defect in the process, we just made a truly accidental error, then does society owe the man anything like monetary damages for the erroneous imprisonment? No, of course not. The failure of humans acting in their best honest effort to achieve accuracy does not imply that they are morally responsible for the errors that happen in spite of their best efforts. <br /><br />A proper attitude about the state being an instrument of authority <b> under God</b> means that we must accept that we are not the ultimate guarantors of pristine, picture perfect lives for our citizens. Accidents, mistakes, inadvertent errors are all under God's providence. We are responsible for doing the best we can, not for doing perfectly. <br /><br />If it were necessary to be certain of a 100% accuracy rate in convictions to impose a penalty, then of course we would have to abandon the penal system altogether, and there would be no such thing as law in practice. Denying that, then, means that a measurable false positive rate does not constitute a conclusive basis to refrain from imposing punishments. And there is no principle that puts capital punishment apart from others with this result. <br /><br />We ought to strive mightily to be correct in serious cases, and this might mean that we should craft new methods: it is not impossible that jury trials by sheer non-trained civilians is unsupportable in this matter, for example. That's a matter for political wisdom and judgment. But that's not a matter of principle: as long as we think a jury trial constitutes the best we can do, then we should continue to DO the best we can do to achieve justice. We should not give up trying to achieve justice because we sometimes fail.Tonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-40815008471087942922011-04-04T23:45:49.540-07:002011-04-04T23:45:49.540-07:00One Brow, how accurate were those stats? Were they...One Brow, how accurate were those stats? Were they cherry picked 'activist' based stats? Secondly, yes perhaps there is rot in the system (corruption, incompetence, malice etc.) but that does not mean that a discussion of natural law cannot be serious. Everything one does is best effort, eg. an airline will try their best to make sure that an airliner is fit to fly but airliners crash nethertheless and usually it's because of something which was missed e.g. welding not done up to spec or incorrect screw size used in pilot's window. National Corporation of Japan pursued a 'quest for zero defect' in the 80s but they never achieved it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-76328673100593939962011-04-04T20:54:59.751-07:002011-04-04T20:54:59.751-07:00Can Ed or someone who has read a lot of his stuff ...Can Ed or someone who has read a lot of his stuff recommend reading for myself in regards to why "dogmatic laissez-faire position of extreme libertarianism" is wrong? I guess I want to know the reasons that Ed "converted" from libertarianism. <br /> <br />I would classify my political position as something close to this kind of libertarianism, but also in an intuitive way know that there must be something wrong with it, and don't really want to believe in it except I lack the reasons to leave it behind. <br /><br />Solomons ChariotSolomon's Chariotshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07627192487882198716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-27616281046163811002011-04-04T19:00:39.458-07:002011-04-04T19:00:39.458-07:00Here in Illinois, the estimate of the false convic...Here in Illinois, the estimate of the false convictions on death row was about 4 out of 9. However, let's say that was actually 1 out of 20 instead. Any discussion of the position of natural law which doews not take into account that innocent people get wrongly executed is itself not particularly serious. I would look forward to your post on how false convictions play a part in determining the propriety of capital punishment.One Browhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11938816242512563561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8954608646904080796.post-35839474250257652982011-04-04T18:04:03.179-07:002011-04-04T18:04:03.179-07:00It is an idea that a philosophy professor once rai...It is an idea that a philosophy professor once raised in class, many years ago as he grappled with the morals of execution. I personally think that banishment would be worse than death, but I'm not a murderer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com