Friday, April 3, 2015

The two faces of tolerance


What is proclaimed and practiced as tolerance today, is in many of its most effective manifestations serving the cause of oppression.

Herbert Marcuse

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.

H. L. Mencken

Given current events in Indiana, I suppose it is time once again to recall a post first run on the old Right Reason blog in March of 2007, and reprinted on this blog in December of 2009.  Here are the relevant passages, followed by some commentary:

To the charge that liberals are (or, given their principles, should be) in favor of X [where X = legalizing abortion, liberalizing obscenity laws, banning smoking on private property, legalizing “same-sex marriage,” outlawing the public advocacy of traditional sexual morality, etc. etc.], the standard liberal response goes through about five stages (with, it seems, roughly 5-10 years passing between each stage, though sometimes the transition is much quicker than that).  Here they are:

Stage 1: “Oh please. Only a far-right-wing nutjob would make such a paranoid and ridiculous accusation - I suppose next you’ll accuse us of wanting to poison your precious bodily fluids!”

Stage 2: “Well, I wouldn’t go as far as X. All the same, it’s good to be open-minded about these things. I mean, people used to think ending slavery was a crazy idea too…”

Stage 3: “Hey, the Europeans have had X for years and the sky hasn’t fallen. But no, I admit that this backward country probably isn’t ready for X yet.”

Stage 4: “Of course I’m in favor of X - it’s in the Constitution! Only a far-right-wing nutjob could possibly oppose it.”

Stage 5: “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law…”


Fortunately, though, we can rely on conservatives to hold the line, and indeed to turn back liberal advances. Right?

Well, no, of course not. (You can stop rolling your eyes, I was being facetious.) For conservatives - or maybe I should say “conservatives” (since there’s very little that they ever actually manage to conserve, unless money is somehow involved) - seem to go through five stages of their own. Here they are:

Stage 1: “Mark my words: if the extreme left had its way, they’d foist X upon us! These nutjobs must be opposed at all costs.”

Stage 2: “Omigosh, now even thoughtful, mainstream liberals favor X! Fortunately, it’s political suicide.”

Stage 3: “X now exists in 45 out of 50 states. Fellow conservatives, we need to learn how to adjust to this grim new reality.”

Stage 4: “X isn’t so bad, really, when you think about it. And you know, sometimes change is good. Consider slavery…”

Stage 5: “Hey, I was always in favor of X! You must have me confused with a [paleocon, theocon, Bible thumper, etc.]. But everyone knows that mainstream conservatism has nothing to do with those nutjobs…”

End quote.  Now, where X = curtailing the free exercise of religion, at the time I first wrote those words I estimated that liberals were at about stage 2.  At this point it seems that many of them are at about stage 4, and a disturbing number of hotheads among them seem willing to push for stage 5 vigilantism.  Conservatives, meanwhile, seem mostly to be at about stage 3 of their own progression, and I suspect that not a few are at least flirting with Stage 4.

And so here is where we find ourselves in the land of the free and the home of the brave in April of 2015:

Prominent conservative politicians and churchmen have all essentially caved in on the substance of the dispute over “same-sex marriage.”  None of them will publicly express the slightest moral disapproval of homosexual behavior, and few even bother anymore with social scientific arguments supporting the benefits of children being raised by both a mother and a father.  Indeed, all of them are eager to express their deep respect for their fellow citizens who happen to be homosexual, vigorously to condemn “homophobia” and discrimination, etc.  Some of them are even happy to affirm “same-sex marriage.”  All they ask is that religious believers who on moral grounds disapprove of “same-sex marriage” not be forced to cooperate formally or materially with it.  The circumstances where this might occur are, of course, very rare.  No one is proposing that business owners might refuse to serve a customer simply because he or she happens to be homosexual.  What is in view are merely cases where a business owner who objects to “same-sex marriage” would be forced to participate in it, say by providing a wedding cake or wedding invitations.  Nor would his refusal to participate inconvenience anyone, since there are plenty of business owners who have no qualms about “same-sex marriage.”

In short, what conservatives are proposing is not only extremely modest, but is being defended in the name of their opponents’ own principles, the most liberal of principles, viz. the Jeffersonian principle that it is tyrannical to force someone to act against his conscience, and the Rawlsian principle that a pluralistic society should strive as far as possible to respect and keep a just peace between citizens committed to radically different moral, philosophical and religious views. 

And for taking this paradigmatically liberal position, they are widely and shrilly denounced by liberals as… “bigots,” “haters,” “intolerant,” comparable to the Ku Klux Klan and the upholders of Jim Crow.

Meanwhile, some liberal business owners fire employees who take this conservative position, while others refuse to do business in a state that adopts it.  Other liberals routinely refuse even to discuss the merits of the conservative position but merely hurl insults and try to shout down and intimidate anyone who dares to disagree with them.  And when a particular business owner affirms that customers who happen to be homosexual are welcome in her restaurant, but also says that she would not agree to cater a hypothetical “same-sex wedding,” she finds herself suddenly subjected to a nationwide Two Minutes Hate, with an online mob actively seeking to destroy her livelihood and reputation -- some of them even proposing to burn down the restaurant or kill its owners.  Even some mainstream liberals, while not condoning such violence, suggest that the restaurant owner had invited this abuse.

And liberals have winked at or even embraced the ethos and tactics of the lynch mob in the name of… tolerance, freedom, and pluralism, of love and compassion and opposition to bigotry.

How have we descended into such Orwellian insanity? 

It’s all about sexual equality

Part of it has to do with the fact that what is at issue here concerns sex.  And make no mistake, it is sex in general, rather than homosexuality in particular, that is ultimately at issue.  Consider that current liberal proposals to curb freedom of conscience where disapproval of “same-sex marriage” is concerned are of a piece with recent liberal proposals to curb freedom of conscience where contraception and abortifacient drugs are concerned.  Consider also that only a small percentage of people, including a small percentage of liberals, have a homosexual orientation.  But perhaps a majority of people in contemporary Western society, and certainly the overwhelming majority of liberals, have bought into the sexual revolution.  In particular, they have bought into the idea that where sex is concerned, the only moral consideration, and certainly the only consideration that should have any influence on public policy, is consent.  There can in their view be no moral objection, and perhaps no reasonable objection of any other sort, to sexual arrangements to which all parties have consented.  There is in their view a presumption in favor of license, and thus a presumption against anyone who would object to license.  The conclusion that there can be no reasonable objection to “same-sex marriage” follows naturally.  It is merely one consequence among others of a generally libertine attitude about sex.

Now, here’s the thing about sex.  The unique intensity of sexual pleasure, the central role that success in romantic and sexual relationships plays in our sense of fulfillment and self-worth,    and the unpleasant feeling of shame that accompanies indulgence in sexual actions we suspect of being in some way wrong, makes it very difficult for people to think clearly or dispassionately about sex.  We have a very strong bias in favor of trying to find ways of rationalizing indulgence, and a very strong bias against regarding some sexual behavior toward which we are attracted as wrong or shameful.  These biases are only increased by sexual license.  The more deeply you buy into the sexual revolution and act accordingly, the more reluctant you are going to be to want to listen to any criticism of it. 

This is why Aquinas regards what he calls “blindness of mind,” “self-love,” and “hatred of God” as among the “daughters of lust” -- where by “lust” Aquinas means, not sexual desire, but rather sexual indulgence that is in some way or other disordered.  Sexual immorality fosters “blindness of mind” in the sense that the one indulging in it tends to have greater difficulty than he otherwise would in thinking coolly and dispassionately about matters of sex.  He tends toward “self-love” in that he is strongly inclined to make his own subjective feelings and desires the measure by which to judge any proposed standards of morality, rather than letting objective moral standards be the measure by which to judge his feelings and desires.  He tends toward “hatred of God” insofar as the very idea that there is an objective moral law or lawgiver who might condemn his indulgence becomes abhorrent to him.  (I recently discussed Aquinas’s analysis at length here.)

So, when a sexually libertine liberal activist shrieks “Bigot! Bigot! Bigot!” in your face at the top of his lungs as if he were putting forward a rational argument, or tries to destroy a person’s reputation and strip him of his livelihood in the name of compassion, or threatens to kill him or burn down his business in the name of tolerance, the manifest cognitive dissonance should not be surprising.  It is only to be expected.  Sexual libertinism is destructive of rationality.

It’s all about sexual equality

But it’s not just about sex.  It’s about egalitarianism itself, which, as Plato argued in The Republic, is inherently destructive of moral, legal, and rational standards, and has tyranny as its natural sequel.  The egalitarian regime insists, notionally, on tolerating every opinion and way of life, and refuses either to judge any one of them as morally or rationally superior to any other, or to favor any of them in its laws.  Yet no regime can tolerate what would subvert it.  And the very idea that some views and ways of life are simply objectively superior, rationally and morally, to others, is subversive of egalitarianism.  Hence egalitarian societies tend in practice to be intolerant of views which maintain that there are objective standards by which some views and ways of life might be judged better or worse.  That is to say, an egalitarian regime inevitably tolerates only those views which are egalitarian.  Which means, of course, that it tolerates only itself.

Thus, in Plato’s own day, do we have the spectacle of Athens, which was democratic, pluralist, and egalitarian -- and killed Socrates, because it suspected that he was none of the above.  Thus do we have the French Revolution, which murdered thousands in the name of liberty, equality, and fraternity.  Thus do we have Stalinist Russia and Maoist China, each of which slaughtered tens of millions in the name of equality.  If egalitarians have, historically, been able to convince themselves of the justifiability of all that, then burning down a pizzeria is a cinch. 

Nor is it by any means only these more extreme forms of egalitarianism that practice intolerance in the name of tolerance.  You will find the same tendency in John Locke, that most moderate of early modern liberals.  Locke famously argued for religious toleration -- except for Catholics, for atheists, or for anyone who rejects the doctrine of religious toleration.  The reason was that Locke regarded the views of all such people as subversive of a tolerant, liberal society -- Catholics because their primary loyalty was to the pope rather than to the liberal state, atheists because they denied the theological foundations that the Protestant Locke thought essential to morality and politics, and deniers of religious liberty for the obvious reason that they rejected the whole idea of the tolerant liberal state.  Locke went so far in the direction of insisting that only those religions which accepted his doctrine of toleration ought to be tolerated that he held “toleration to be the chief characteristical mark of the true church.”  In other words, a real religion is one which embraces Lockeanism.  Hence the Lockean liberal regime tolerates only those views which accept the basic principles of Lockean liberalism.  Which ultimately means, of course, that it too tolerates only itself.  (See chapter 5 of my book Locke for further discussion of Locke’s doctrine on toleration.)

Things are in no way different with the contemporary liberalism of John Rawls.  Rawls famously holds that a liberal society is one which is neutral between, and can be accepted as just on the basis of premises held by, all of the competing “comprehensive doctrines” -- that is to say, the religious, philosophical and moral worldviews -- that exist within a modern pluralistic society.  Or at least, Rawls says, it is neutral between the “reasonable” comprehensive doctrines.  And what makes a doctrine “reasonable,” as it turns out, is a willingness to endorse the principles of Rawls’s brand of liberalism.  Which means that the Rawlsian regime tolerates only those views which endorse its underlying principles.  And thus -- once again -- we have a form of egalitarianism which on analysis really only tolerates itself.  (I’ve discussed the bogusness of Rawlsian neutrality elsewhere, e.g. here, here, and here.)

Now, how do you counter sexual libertinism and the totalitarian tendencies of egalitarianism?  Naturally, by vigorously arguing for traditional sexual morality, and working for legal safeguards of the liberty of those who affirm traditional sexual morality to live in accordance with it.  Easier said than done, needless to say.  But there is no alternative, in the short term or, especially, in the long term.  Rusty Reno, at First Things, seems to agree.  He recommends two courses of action to conservative and religious leaders:

The first is obvious. We need to work for laws like the Indiana RFRA to provide some protection, however modest, to our communities from the coming onslaught of “anti-bigotry” laws.

The second is less obvious but perhaps even more important. We need to stand up and speak clearly about the biblical teaching on sex, marriage, and family. It’s the leaders of the Church who should be attacked in public as “homophobic,” not politicians like Mike Pence who are trying to do the right thing.

Yet some political leaders seem more inclined to cave in to the demands of the mob, and some religious leaders more inclined to hide under the covers and hope the problem goes away.  Naturally, this will only embolden the mob.  These political and religious leaders are asking for it, and they are going to get it from the “tolerance” crowd -- good and hard, as Mencken would say.  Unfortunately, they won’t be the only ones to suffer the effects of their cowardice. 

484 comments:

  1. Personal opinion is that Feser should do a blog post called Nihilism and the Ideology of Sex.

    As well as the one I suggested earlier, wherein he more deeply, and perhaps mercilessly [than he already has] deconstruct the Ironist/Nihilist concept of sex as it relates to the "desiring thing" which the Ironist/Nihilist reduces to on its own conceptual terms.

    I think he has the intellectual pugnacity to do it, despite the limits of charity which his Catholicism might seem to bind him to.

    Intellectual exercise after all ... and they are gleeful apostates, and not the invincibly ignorant, after all.

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  2. Wow, just wow.

    Santi accusing Scott of "arbitrariness, question begging, strained justifications, and unwarranted shifts of attention." Is someone trolling as Santi? The level of conceit in this statement beggars belief, even for him.

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  3. "divorcees, adulterers, people having premarital sex? They never attempted to absolutely destroy people for disagreeing with them."

    I think that it's more the case that the attempt to destroy folks for claiming that these acts are immoral has already occurred. You probably won't lose your job for arguing that the above mentioned activities are immoral, but you quite probably will be called a square. In the case of divorcees it is possibly closer to the LGBT issue, though. There is a notable amount of pressure on the church to treat as valid marriages subsequent to divorce. Many evangelical churches don't bat an eyelash at such relationships, and you'd likely get what for if you condemned them in those contexts. Plenty of evangelical pastors tread lightly around the relevant texts for fear of offending good portions of their congregations (though, the best evidence I can offer for this is my own experience in evangelical churches).

    In each of these cases, though, no social identity really congealed around the activity. The activity was separated from the person in a way that has not held in the case of homosexuality, in which the activity and the proclivity have been conflated. The good of the same-sex attracted individual has been wrapped up in their finding a release for that attraction, and as a result more traditionally minded folks are seen as pitting themselves against the flourishing of that sort of person.

    More generally, though, statements to the effect that so and so is really motivated by such and such a desire seem to me to be weak responses to opposing ideologies. It just sounds like saying that this person believes what they do or acts in a certain way because of original sin, or "ideology," or because of some oedipal something or other. It might after all be true, but it opens the accuser up to the same accusation, e.g. that there is some sinister motivation behind his acts, his notion of virtue, etc.

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  4. I think that it's more the case that the attempt to destroy folks for claiming that these acts are immoral has already occurred.

    I don't think it's comparable now, or ever. There was a movement in the culture at large on that issue, but there was never demonization and hatred of people who were critical of it. Being called a square is different from being fired and receiving death threats.

    The good of the same-sex attracted individual has been wrapped up in their finding a release for that attraction, and as a result more traditionally minded folks are seen as pitting themselves against the flourishing of that sort of person.

    That's intentional, not accidental. Go ahead and try to differentiate between the orientation and the sexual acts. Say you only are criticizing the acts (which are under the control of the person) rather than the attraction. See if it's appreciated, or if it even changes the tone.

    More generally, though, statements to the effect that so and so is really motivated by such and such a desire seem to me to be weak responses to opposing ideologies.

    I'm evaluating the culture here, not giving a criticism of the acts, and in the process I'm explaining what the rhetorical lay of the land is when discussing these issues. The issue really is about sex, and the goal is not to merely agree to disagree, but to hate people who criticize the sex.

    It might after all be true, but it opens the accuser up to the same accusation, e.g. that there is some sinister motivation behind his acts, his notion of virtue, etc.

    Unfortunately, this is pragmatically irrelevant: those kinds of accusations are happening no matter what. There's no "opening up" here, because that's the way it is already.

    One look at the Indiana incident should put to rest any notions that LGBT activists are nice people who give their opponents the benefit of the doubt, charitably interpreting their motives and beliefs.

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  5. Dennis,

    That sort thing is quite common in modern Britain. I remembered, about a decade ago, a preacher was arrested in Bournemouth after he'd made some quite mild comments against homosexuals. The preacher was an elderly man and had been jostled by youths, but it was he who was arrested.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator/thisweek/9981/keep-quiet-or-face-arrest.thtml

    To be fair, I don't mind limits on street preaching. I don't much fancy having people yelling into microphones on every corner, but street preaching is allowed in a particular area, there is no reason why preaching named is acceptable.

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  6. - sorry, that should be, there is no reason why the preaching named is not acceptable.

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  7. Sorry, that link is broken:

    http://www.christian.org.uk/rel_liberties/cases/harry_hammond.htm

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  8. Anonymous generalizes a whole group of human beings--gay and lesbian activists--as not nice people. But Notice that on of Anonymous's buds, DNW, claims that the way I roll is in "hoping to trigger an emotional reaction"--and yet it was DNW who put out there in this thread an accusation against Andrew Sullivan that was obviously designed to elicit disgust and prejudice readers against the man's point of view.

    With regard to Andrew Sullivan's sex life, DNW didn't identify the author of the quote, nor provide the link--and left it to stand as gossip. Perhaps he has never read the Book of James (the third and fourth chapters).

    I would note that DNW put this out there as a dismissal of Sullivan's Catholicism and seriousness concerning same sex marriage. He left it unreferenced, unattributed, and decontextualized--and no Christian entered the thread to say, "You know what? You crossed a line. And Sullivan is a Catholic."

    Pray for me, fine. But also pray for yourselves. Can a bad tree produce good fruit?

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  9. Has Ed ever posted anything specifically focused on this assumption that one's "sexuality" is the true fundament of one's self, and that satisfying it is the greatest good? It's an assumption we meet everywhere this subject arises, but I've never seen it properly analysed. It never seemed to make much sense to me, even as a teen.

    I will give Chad points for at least attempting argument.

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  10. Anon,

    though I did say "weak responses to opposing ideologies" I did not intend "weak" in a pragmatic sense. I meant it in a logical sense. It's a self-vitiating way to critique another position.

    As far as the facts go, whether it is all about the sex, I am fine with leaving the discussion at disagreement (though not without a parting word!). I think there's a pretty complicated bunch of factors driving the vitriol amongst those actively promoting LGBT interests, and I think there's a great number of people who are very outspoken in favor of gay marriage and the like who have no interest in their own sex. In the Indiana case, the documented threats* were, as I understand it, from straight folks. I see this phenomenon on social media as well, in most cases that I've observed, the really shrill commenters, posters, rebloggers and what have you are all straight.

    *Also, a comment on making too much out of threats. Threats are bad, and those people who threatened the O'Connors are shame-worthy. However, threats of death, rape and other sorts of harm come from lunatics on both sides of the aisle anytime anytime a pet issue gets enough traction. See, for instance, Anita Sarkeesian.

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  11. George,

    I'll throw in my agreement there. That would be an interesting post.

    Another issue that comes up, our very own Santi has mentioned it, is the function of sexual play in other animal communities. Like you, I don't find the arguments impressive. It's a kind of argument that comes up a lot, though, and not just with LGBT issues. The other day I saw an article about some species of spider - the female apparently will only mate once with the same male every several hours, or something like that, but if a new male is brought in barely after she's finished with the first, she's ready to go again. From this, the authors of the article made a really giant leap to the suggestion that human women might benefit psychologically from more partners. This kind of thinking is just crazy to me, but it's not hard to find it in otherwise respectable publications.

    At any rate, the line of thinking seems to be that what is constitutive of human flourishing can be better understood though disciplines like evolutionary psychology, and that these disciplines are, like quantum mechanics and other favorites, turning common sense on its head.

    I probably could have just referred to every post Santi has posted ever to flesh that out.

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  12. Santi,

    What are wittering on about?

    No doubt many people make use of appeals to emotions in their arguments. What makes you stand out is you simply replace your entire arguments with such appeals. Your reasoning is almost always sloppy, such as, for example, in this thread where you didn't care, or even seem to notice, you'd switched one argument with another or one term with another. You get a rough ride here because you are a troll who makes long, repetitive, and annoying emotional ramblings instead of decent arguments.

    I do not know about Sullivan's status as a Roman Catholic. I am not a Roman Catholic myself. What I do know is his arguments are not very strong, from either a Catholic or traditional Christian perspective or a traditional conservative one. And it is also perfectly true that Sullivan has made allusions to the fact he doesn't see central aspects of traditional marriage, like monogamy, as that important. This does add to the suspicion he isn't really interesting in expanding traditional marriage but overturning it.

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  13. Matt Sheean,

    I agree about the threats. Unfortunately, the mainstream media is one-sided in its coverage: when it is the good guys, according to left-liberal ideology, being threatened the media implies it shows that the bad guys as a whole are even more malign, whereas if it is the bad guys being threatened, then it is largely ignored. That said, threats, on either side, almost always should be seen as the lunatic fringe and not used as indicative of a whole movement.

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  14. @ Santi

    With regard to Andrew Sullivan's sex life, DNW didn't identify the author of the quote, nor provide the link--and left it to stand as gossip. Perhaps he has never read the Book of James (the third and fourth chapters).

    I would note that DNW put this out there as a dismissal of Sullivan's Catholicism and seriousness concerning same sex marriage. He left it unreferenced, unattributed, and decontextualized--and no Christian entered the thread to say, "You know what? You crossed a line. And Sullivan is a Catholic."


    The article in question is easily found, and Sullivan's background is well known. What is your complaint? DNW had the context right. You've held up Sullivan as a rhetorical tool in the past, and the appeal is, now as it was before, totally specious. It has been literally decades since it last made sense to gesture toward Sullivan as a proponent of the "conservative" case for gay marriage. It's not just that Sullivan doesn't practice what he preaches (or, rather, once preached), but that he now preaches something else.

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  15. Matt,

    and I think there's a great number of people who are very outspoken in favor of gay marriage and the like who have no interest in their own sex.

    I agree. You don't have to be LGBT to be an LGBT activist. Far from it.

    I see this phenomenon on social media as well, in most cases that I've observed, the really shrill commenters, posters, rebloggers and what have you are all straight.

    I never said the hate was exclusive to LGBT people. But I have to ask, how in the world do you know the sexual orientations of those people?

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  16. @Jeremy Taylor

    This is a very sorry state of affairs, then, is all I can say. Thanks for replying.

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  17. Jeremy,

    I agree about the threats. Unfortunately, the mainstream media is one-sided in its coverage: when it is the good guys, according to left-liberal ideology, being threatened the media implies it shows that the bad guys as a whole are even more malign, whereas if it is the bad guys being threatened, then it is largely ignored.

    It goes further. If you're trying to shut down businesses for the crime of not wanting to take part in a same-sex wedding, the people using the force of the state to accomplish this, fining people, threatening them with poverty and prison, are cast as the victims. When someone's firing or expulsion is demanded for their opposing same-sex marriage, it isn't coming from the lunatic fringe. It's coming from the mainstream "progressives".

    It's not the extreme minority on the left demanding that Catholic schools employ open dissidents to Catholic doctrine. It's the "progressive" political mainstream in the area.

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  18. In the Indiana case, the documented threats* were, as I understand it, from straight folks.

    Okay, I'm game. Where'd you see this?

    There was one school gym teacher who made references to burning the pizzeria down - from what I recall, not straight.

    There was the reporter who mocked the pizza place and then talked openly about how she was reporting their fundraiser for fraud "just in case". Orientation not revealed.

    I'm pretty curious to see who's going around documenting the sexual preferences of people making death threats otherwise. I don't doubt there's straight people involved, but then, you don't have to be LGBT to be an LGBT activist.

    At any rate, the line of thinking seems to be that what is constitutive of human flourishing can be better understood though disciplines like evolutionary psychology, and that these disciplines are, like quantum mechanics and other favorites, turning common sense on its head.

    Since when? I mean, I know it's popular (especially around here) to act as if what's motivating one's opposition is a thorough, fundamental - if deeply flawed - intellectual disagreement, but really, all evidence on this front points to it being a lot more superficial than that. It's a bit like New Atheism; yes, there's a lot of talking points about how the Cultists of Gnu are absolutely reverential of and deeply enthralled by science, to the point where even their critics go on at length about their scientism, but when you actually start talking with them or reading their arguments you quickly notice they couldn't care less about science unless it involves cool pictures with funny captions. Science has little to do with their views, one way or the other.

    Yeah, it does seem to ultimately come down to sex. I'll cite my personal experience here - I've talked with people about this issue time and again. Here's the standard pattern:

    A: Why do you hate people, just for who they love?
    B: I don't. Love's great.
    A: But you reject same-sex marriage and think homosexuality is evil!
    B: I reject the "marriage", yeah. But homosexuality evil? Nah. It's the acts and sexual attraction specifically I find disordered. The love is great - that's a non-issue. Even a lifetime, deep love. Remove the sex and sexual attraction, and there's little left over to reject.
    A: There's more to same-sex relationships than sex!
    B: Yep. It's just the only part that's negative. So we've established it's not the love, but you know - the anal sex and facials that are the problem. Let's talk about the morality and psychological health at work there.
    A: ...Oops, I have to go.

    Go figure, right?

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  19. Crude,

    Of course you are game, you seem to have been born game.

    My bad about the coach. I should have read more carefully about that story.

    Nick Offerman seems pretty straight, the Wilco guys are, I believe. As for the people making the threats to the pizzeria, I should have considered my comment more carefully - I definitely overreached. I am suitably embarrassed.

    In the case of the activists in question, I agree that more often than not the intellectual landscape is remarkably similar to New Atheism, and I think the similarity is to be found in the activist character of both groups. Activism seems to depend on shallowness.

    I'll try to express my misgivings about the centrality of sex, though (I shall try to make my thoughts more clear, and ask for your patience):

    If it were mainly about the sex could that not have been satisfied with the legalization of sodomy and subsequently some general acceptance of homosexual relationships as part of the social fabric? In the case of SSM what is being sought is a whole array of, shall we say, prosthetics for the homosexual couple. This is the strangest aspect of it to me, as the whole gamut of conventions, from the marriage license to surrogacy, the goal seems to be to make the homosexual couple as much like a heterosexual couple as possible (to be able to, functionally, enjoy all the options naturally had by a healthy hetero couple) - that is, by definition, "heteronormative". This interest in a kind of prosthetic heterosexuality is expressed most strongly in the T of the acronym. Gay, lesbian and trans interests intersect in the technological possibilities to normalize their condition - to bring nature in line with their will. There's the sex, yea, but there's something behind it, I think - the idea that us wonderful human beings can raise up every valley, and make every mountain low.

    The sex does play an interesting role to be sure, as the appetite itself is the thing beyond the reach of their will. Rather than admit the defeat, the desire is subsumed into the identity, making the desire the thing that wills. I suppose in saying that I've come around to conceding quite a bit.

    Thanks in advance for enduring my rambling.

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  20. Matt,

    If it were mainly about the sex could that not have been satisfied with the legalization of sodomy and subsequently some general acceptance of homosexual relationships as part of the social fabric?

    I tried to do this already, but I'll put it directly - this time, more succinctly.

    Take a same-sex relationship. Remove the sexual content. Retain everything else.

    What, exactly, is left that's objectionable? I don't doubt you can come up with some things, but I put it to you that it's going to seem entirely trivial. Trivial in a biblical sense, in a religious moral teaching sense, in just about every sense. Flip the pages of the bible for condemnation of this remainder, and you should be prepared to flip in vain. Scan the CCC. Dig into your resources deep, because you're going to have to.

    That's what I mean when I say this is almost entirely about the sex. Even with the talk of aping 'heterosexuals', at the end of the day the sex is key. Always has been, always will be.

    Now, I can say all this and believe the issue still is loaded with interesting complications, and if we're going to drop the psychoanalysis bomb - something I never recommend, by the way, except when honestly appraising the issue as opposed to trying to convince people - well, there's a lot to have a field day with.

    What's interesting is that for all the centrality of sex, the sex also happens to be the last thing most anyone wants to talk about. And I mean everyone, on both sides.

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  21. Santi said...

    Anonymous generalizes a whole group of human beings--gay and lesbian activists--as not nice people. But Notice that on of Anonymous's buds, DNW, claims that the way I roll is in "hoping to trigger an emotional reaction"--and yet it was DNW who put out there in this thread an accusation against Andrew Sullivan that was obviously designed to elicit disgust and prejudice readers against the man's point of view.

    With regard to Andrew Sullivan's sex life, DNW didn't identify the author of the quote, nor provide the link--and left it to stand as gossip. Perhaps he has never read the Book of James (the third and fourth chapters).

    I would note that DNW put this out there as a dismissal of Sullivan's Catholicism and seriousness concerning same sex marriage. He left it unreferenced, unattributed, and decontextualized--and no Christian entered the thread to say, "You know what? You crossed a line. And Sullivan is a Catholic."

    Pray for me, fine. But also pray for yourselves. Can a bad tree produce good fruit?
    April 9, 2015 at 4:10 PM




    Well, there's a change of tone.

    None of the usual lengthy and rhapsodic excerpts from William Blake or some other cracked-pate lunatic proclaiming fecal flecked fornication the "fairest of joys"; just wounded petulance.


    Santi,

    As your field is literature, and as the subject who you introduced in this instance was Sullivan, and as you were insinuating that Sullivan is someone whose Catholicism and moral judgments should be taken seriously, it seemed to me that a famous brouhaha involving Sullivan on just this topic of homosexual 'sexual morality', and one which even found its way into the pages of The Nation, might have crossed your historical radar at some point.

    You invited those here to judge.

    I said better to let like judge like, and provided a well-known instance.

    Seriously, you cite Sullivan as a paragon - presumably being yourself familiar with the issues and controversy surrounding his position and pronouncements - and yet you claim through implication that you knew nothing of this infamous fiasco?

    Are your forensic practices so sloppy Santi that you actually did not know whereof you spoke? Or did you just figure that you could get away with a predicate deception which no one would catch?

    Either way, it doesn't look good.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Are your forensic practices so sloppy Santi that you actually did not know whereof you spoke? Or did you just figure that you could get away with a predicate deception which no one would catch?

    Can a bad tree produce good fruit, indeed. :D

    ReplyDelete
  23. Crude said...

    Matt,

    If it were mainly about the sex could that not have been satisfied with the legalization of sodomy and subsequently some general acceptance of homosexual relationships as part of the social fabric?

    I tried to do this already, but I'll put it directly - this time, more succinctly.

    Take a same-sex relationship. Remove the sexual content. Retain everything else.

    What, exactly, is left that's objectionable? I don't doubt you can come up with some things, but I put it to you that it's going to seem entirely trivial. Trivial in a biblical sense, in a religious moral teaching sense, in just about every sense. Flip the pages of the bible for condemnation of this remainder, and you should be prepared to flip in vain. Scan the CCC. Dig into your resources deep, because you're going to have to.

    That's what I mean when I say this is almost entirely about the sex. Even with the talk of aping 'heterosexuals', at the end of the day the sex is key. Always has been, always will be.

    Now, I can say all this and believe the issue still is loaded with interesting complications, and if we're going to drop the psychoanalysis bomb - something I never recommend, by the way, except when honestly appraising the issue as opposed to trying to convince people - well, there's a lot to have a field day with.

    What's interesting is that for all the centrality of sex, the sex also happens to be the last thing most anyone wants to talk about. And I mean everyone, on both sides.

    April 10, 2015 at 5:20 AM"



    I agree with you but I would rather that it not be done from a humanist standpoint which merely plays into the Ironist's "have their cake and eat it too" hands.

    It should be analyzed in a thoroughly clinical and Darwinian way which makes no allowances for or presumption for some "in common humanity" with the nihilist, nominalist, or Ironist himself - or perhaps "itself" to follow their trailblazing paths in the field of pronouns.

    I'd like to see it analyzed in a way which approaches the Ironist 'desiring-thing' merely as a locus of want per se, picks its congeries of impulsions to pieces on its own analytical terms, and grants it nothing back in the way of a presumptive fellowship which cannot somehow be shown to logically and necessarily follow from the desiring thing considered sui generis and in itself.

    And fat chance that, considering their allegiance to Hume.

    Enough of this granting s**t like Rorty shelter under a conceptual umbrella of humankind he himself (to use my favorite Irish-ism) denies.

    Doesn't that sound logical?

    So, where the hell are Deleuze and Guattari (or their language) when you want to make use of them in order to turn the tables? LOL

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hi Kirill:

    First, I think it's great that you "feel for gays and don't want to cause them any harm or sense of oppression." That, to my mind, is the starting point for all ethics: empathy; walking in the shoes of others, etc.

    If you can't get that far, or have shut that part of yourself off, then you're in the realm of taking on the persona of King Creon, a character in the play Antigone, where you become intellectually hard and inflexible, full of hubris, and emotionally rigid. The Catholic Robert Kennedy said of this play that the lesson he took from Creon's character is the following: "the only sin is pride."

    But next you present two competing goods: empathy, on the one hand, and your sense of morality on the other.

    You don't like the way liberals split this baby, Solomon-like, with what you describe as the "libertarian principle 'harm/no harm.'"

    You feel that the moral issue should order and trump all other considerations, and are looking for a larger principle under which gay sex might be subsumed, or a larger moral principle itself that might subsume all other considerations.

    One of your examples of the bankruptcy of the harm/no harm principle is consent in bestiality. You treat bestiality as a reductio ad absurdum akin to Jonathan Swift's proposal of the eating of children in A Modest Proposal. You wrote the following (hilariously): "You don't ask a horse for consent if you want to kill it for meat. So why should you bother asking for consent if you want to have sex with her?"

    My response is that I would SUPPORT bestiality before I would support pedophilia or rape precisely because a human child or woman is not a horse. Precisely because of violated consent, we need never support pedophilia or rape. So the harm/no harm principle is actually pretty good at getting us, pragmatically, to a moral center of gravity (empathy), and thus no harm for humans.

    In a pluralistic democracy where people don't always agree on what's moral, one should resort (in my view) to the balancing of competing goods that gets us closer, rather than farther away from, the principle of no harm.

    The conscience and beliefs of gays are a good, and your moral beliefs are a good, and so when they clash, adult gays get to do what they want, and you get to express in a full-throated manner your disapproval and non-participation. But I'm not sure how much closer to an ideal moral system a pluralistic democracy can reach than that.

    There's always a balancing of competing interests and goods in a democracy. To otherthrow that is to otherthrow the good of democracy itself.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Kirill Nielson:

    Your key question to me was the following: "can you provide me with a principle that helps separate gays from the rest" of obviously bad people like pedophiles?

    My answer is yes, I can provide a principle to help you incorporate gay sexual behavior, though personally disgusting to you, into the family or range of "normal" human and morally acceptable sexual behaviors.

    That principle is this: evolution is not a moral or immoral process, but an AMORAL process. If God exists, God, for reasons mysterious to us, has generated species by the method of casting contingent behaviors into contingent environments and leaving what survives to "whatever works."

    Aquinas could not have known that, in the realm of biology, Aristotle's Golden Mean--shooting for an ideal based on clues read off from form--would run afoul of how we now know that God makes new species.

    Contemporary Thomists don't have that excuse. Once you understand that God makes new species by generating irreducible behavioral variation along a continuum--sending that variation as a gambit into the future--one can say yes to human sexual variety and experimentation in pair bonding SO LONG AS CONSENT IS RESPECTED.

    Once you know how evolution works, there is no excuse for excluding homosexuality from the range of acceptable human sexual behaviors if it does no harm to others.

    So combining evolution with the no-harm principle strikes me as a pragmatic and compassionate solution to the moral question. Once you treat variation as God's natural and amoral method for generating new species, you've got to incorporate this knowledge somehow into your moral calculus by asking: does this variation do any harm?

    If God made gays and lesbians the sort of people that they are, and you say no to that, where is your justification for this hubris? How do you know that God doesn't want gay and lesbian people living sexual lives in the world, and pair bonding?

    Now, you might say, "But Hume said no ought follows an is. Rape, for example, might constitute a successful evolutionary strategy, and we don't condone rape." And I agree, of course. But I think that evolution can inform one's general sense that if diversity is in the world, we should be reluctant to judge that diversity absent good and independent reasons to do so. We should have, as our starting presumption, that variation is morally neutral--EVEN IF IT DOESN'T CONFORM TO THE NORM OF ITS FORM.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Crude,

    I think we're saying two different things. I understood Anon earlier to be saying that what really motivates LGBT activists is sex, and a hatred of those who criticize their appetites.

    I objected to this analysis, to put it simply, because it seems to me too reductive. One of the reasons I have for thinking that is (my poor examples notwithstanding) that there are a good number of people who get worked up about every new affront to 'the cause' who are, by all appearances, not homosexual. In that sense, it's not about the sex for those people, but something else - signaling to others their tribal affiliations or something like that ("look at me guys, I'm on the right side of history over here"). I might not be the best person to assess all this, though, as I have found myself in conflict over this issue with, mostly, liberalized Biola grads who hate the ghost of their past selves or failed Judith Butler clones.

    What you are saying seems to me to be a bit different than what Anon was saying, though it is entirely possible that I misunderstood anon. You're saying that the sex is the point on which the whole argument turns. I don't find anything to disagree with about that. Everybody is fighting over whether or not a particular kind of sexual relationship should be celebrated or condemned.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Jeremy:

    Help me out with the zero-sum game here. You write of Sullivan, "he doesn't see central aspects of traditional marriage, like monogamy, as that important. This does add to the suspicion he isn't really interesting in expanding traditional marriage but overturning it."

    How does Andrew Sullivan's open and gay civil marriage--if that's what he has worked out with his partner-- "overturn" your religious and "traditional marriage"?

    Why can't each couple work out their own marital salvation (metaphorically)? One is a civil marriage, the other religious. This isn't the Middle East, where the territory in dispute is necessarily finite. The inner logic of Sullivan's marriage may not be the inner logic of your own--and they can coexist.

    Why do marriages need to conform to a Golden Mean and not be, like evolution, irreducible variations along a continuum?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Crude:

    You wrote: "[it's] anal sex and facials that are the problem. Let's talk about the morality and psychological health at work there."

    Please elaborate. I'm not going anywhere. Write a couple of paragraphs concerning why, exactly, these practices are immoral and indicative of psychological ill health in those who practice them. Much appreciated.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Matt:

    You wrote: "Gay, lesbian and trans interests intersect in the technological possibilities to normalize their condition - to bring nature in line with their will. There's the sex, yea, but there's something behind it, I think - the idea that us wonderful human beings can raise up every valley, and make every mountain low."

    Who gave us this "idea"? Why do humans have this power to redirect the course of nature? What makes the idea immoral?

    ReplyDelete
  30. DNW:

    With Sullivan you engaged in ad hominem.

    Sullivan is a Catholic, and he is an important public intellectual. Just because you say he isn't, or because conservative Catholics wish to malign his identity, doesn't make it true.

    Your premise is that Catholicism is a fixed thing; that it doesn't change through time; and that Sullivan's homosexuality can never be digested by Catholic doctrine or practice in a positive way, now or in the future.

    But Pope Francis himself, signalling an interest in evolving on gay issues, said recently, "Who am I to judge?"

    So you are doing to Sullivan what you did to Rorty: reclassify him away from his actual and chosen identity.

    Sullivan is a Catholic, and Rorty is not a fascist.

    Richard Rorty, by the way, served in the United States Army. Did you know that? Just as you haven't properly distinguished Rorty from Hitler, you haven't accurately located Andrew Sullivan in relation to Catholicism and conservatism.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Santi,

    I'm not going anywhere.

    Good, so when I make it clear that you're a troll not worth my time, I can be sure you're seeing it.

    Now beg someone else for attention. I'm not interested in wastes of time or the intellectually dishonest/absent.

    Matt,

    You're saying that the sex is the point on which the whole argument turns. I don't find anything to disagree with about that.

    Alright. As for my own view, no, I don't think LGBT activists = LGBT people. In fact, my view is that there's no such thing as a 'gay agenda'. LGBT people are just pretty convenient pawns in some larger cultural war that is tied up with a host of other touchy issues. The idea that 'gay people' have some 'agenda' and they're the ones in the driver seat is as much of a joke as talking about the 'black agenda'. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the rest are out there, but no one pretends they're in the intellectual driver's seat or operating with a grand plan.

    Everybody is fighting over whether or not a particular kind of sexual relationship should be celebrated or condemned.

    Yes and no. Everybody is fighting over relationships - few people are fighting over sex. The sexual aspect of the relationship tends to be dropped like a hot potato by all sides, in anything approaching detail - the whole thing tends to be kept at the level of the tremendously abstract, symbolic, and even idyllic. To hear most people talk about the gay marriage subject, it's as if the Catholic Church is up in arms over the prospect of two men holding hands and caring about one another. A bit like how when people talk about the morality of sex, the conversation tends to zero in precisely on 'committed monogamous relationships where two people want to express their love for each other', which is funny, because in the world I live in a lot of people just plain like to fuck.

    DNW,

    I'd like to see it analyzed in a way which approaches the Ironist 'desiring-thing' merely as a locus of want per se, picks its congeries of impulsions to pieces on its own analytical terms, and grants it nothing back in the way of a presumptive fellowship which cannot somehow be shown to logically and necessarily follow from the desiring thing considered sui generis and in itself.

    And fat chance that, considering their allegiance to Hume.


    I think this still doesn't get at the heart. Allegiance to Hume? I think even most New Atheists would wonder what a Fox News correspondent has to do with anything. Don't get me wrong, that kind of analysis can be fun, but it still seems to assume that there's been a sea-change in what metaphysics people consciously embrace, whereas from what I can tell, most people don't know what metaphysics is.

    Here's what I find works well: I ask people to tell me if this (fictional) guy is sexually healthy. And from here, quite a conversation can be had.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Greg:

    With regard to Scott, I'm calling bluffs here. It's easy to throw short rhetorical bombs from behind Oz curtains at people like me who risk making positive statements in full paragraphs. It's also easy to point to what others have said with links, or to refer to general ideas with brief pointing--all without actually grappling with the messiness of specific instances.

    And of course ad hominem, changing the subject, and demonizing opponents (and making it about them) are the easiest rhetorical moves and shifts of all.

    So how about you, Greg (or anyone else here)?

    Take a direct shot at answering the following question in a full paragraph or more without resort to something Feser or Aquinas said. No pointing. Just you talking.

    Why, exactly, should two women in their forties, both their husbands dead and their children grown, not be allowed to have a same sex marriage within the Catholic Church? Why is same sex marriage flatly unthinkable in this instance? Why must it never be re-imagined in Thomistic terms? The essential nature of "woman" has gotten reimagined and complexified, theoretically, since Aquinas. Why can't gay and lesbian sex, and things like masturbation and contraception, undergo similar processes of Thomistic re-theorizing--especially in the light of the fact that God uses irreducible variation along a continuum of behaviors to bring about new species? What is wrong with rethinking things and making them new; of saying yes to sexual experiment?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Santi said...

    DNW: With Sullivan you engaged in ad hominem."



    No. You implied he was worth listening to for enlightenment on homosexual fidelity and sexual mores worked out in a Catholic context. And you invited comment on this angle.

    Instead, I quoted one of his own kind.

    So, what's your malfunction, other than being embarrassed by the redounding effects of your own ignorance?

    " Sullivan is a Catholic, and he is an important public intellectual. Just because you say he isn't, or because conservative Catholics wish to malign his identity, doesn't make it true."

    You're going completely off the rails and just making stuff up. Is this how you get by in the classroom?

    " Your premise is that Catholicism is a fixed thing; that it doesn't change through time; and that Sullivan's homosexuality can never be digested by Catholic doctrine or practice in a positive way, now or in the future."

    My premise is that Jesus Christ instituted a church, or he did not; and that you were already caught out engaged in misrepresenting what the scriptures say about it and what it and he means.

    What "Catholicism" - as you personally define it - might or might not do, hardly matters to me. I've already seen the pixie haired wiccans or whatever, performing their so-called "liturgy" around the altar. If you think you can shock me, well ...

    " But Pope Francis himself, signalling an interest in evolving on gay issues, said recently, "Who am I to judge?" "

    That is the second time you have misrepresented the sense of that quote. You were caught the first. Yet you come back with it again. Are you completely autistic?

    " So you are doing to Sullivan what you did to Rorty: reclassify him away from his actual and chosen identity.

    Sullivan is a Catholic, and Rorty is not a fascist."


    "Chosen?" I don't give a shit what they call themselves; I only care what the s.o.b.s in fact socially demand of others. And, if some fleshy faced goofball demands that I take a interest in the details of the life of "the other" and that I engage in self-sacrificial solidarity on the basis of nothing but some silly tautology he spouts about "that is what we do", then he, (or they) are generically fascist pure and simple. What do you want, parallel quotes from Oswald Mosley?

    " Richard Rorty, by the way, served in the United States Army. Did you know that? "

    So did Benedict Arnold and he was a general and a war hero who knew Washington personally. Did you know that?

    "Just as you haven't properly distinguished Rorty from Hitler,"

    Why, given that I never mentioned nor referred to Hitler, should I distinguish Rorty from Hitler?

    Did Hitler have a copyright on the concept of fascism?

    Rorty wants solidarity for the sake of solidarity ... something he cannot explain on any other basis than that he thinks "cruelty" is the worst thing one can do, and that private projects are to be increasingly sacrificed for this public solidarity realm work of his.

    Which is not an argument at all, so much as a scrap of emotive rhetoric.

    Further, given Rorty's (and your) notion of universals, it becomes impossible to have any clear much less objective idea of just what "cruelty" supposedly is.

    Perhaps only the oppressed know, and will inform us of what it is they have felt as such once they give us our marching orders.

    Yeah the Ironist "gambit". Same stupid move as made by utilitarians. Just a different word.


    "... you haven't accurately located Andrew Sullivan in relation to Catholicism and conservatism.
    April 10, 2015 at 10:01 AM "


    Pathetic as it is, you probably ought to stick to your swaying harangues about what you see as the fair delights of a crap spattered sex life. Because you are obviously no good at reasoning, or history.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Crude said: "DNW,

    ' I'd like to see it analyzed in a way which approaches the Ironist 'desiring-thing' merely as a locus of want per se, picks its congeries of impulsions to pieces on its own analytical terms, and grants it nothing back in the way of a presumptive fellowship which cannot somehow be shown to logically and necessarily follow from the desiring thing considered sui generis and in itself.

    And fat chance that, considering their allegiance to Hume.'

    I think this still doesn't get at the heart. Allegiance to Hume? I think even most New Atheists would wonder what a Fox News correspondent has to do with anything. Don't get me wrong, that kind of analysis can be fun, but it still seems to assume that there's been a sea-change in what metaphysics people consciously embrace, whereas from what I can tell, most people don't know what metaphysics is."

    Yeah .... you are talking about (re-)converting the muddled masses. I am looking at something else. And from where I stand examining the logic of the troll warriors, who do themselves advert to the figures I mention on the grounds I point out, is worthwhile. But in a non-enabling context. Unlike what I am doing with SantRorty.



    "Here's what I find works well: I ask people to tell me if this (fictional) guy is sexually healthy. And from here, quite a conversation can be had."


    Yes, well, I'll look. But for a nominalist what can "health" possibly mean?

    ReplyDelete
  35. DNW,

    Yeah .... you are talking about (re-)converting the muddled masses. I am looking at something else. And from where I stand examining the logic of the troll warriors, who do themselves advert to the figures I mention on the grounds I point out, is worthwhile. But in a non-enabling context. Unlike what I am doing with SantRorty.

    Alright, now I think I understand. Different focus in mind.

    The people you're talking about? See, the thing is, I don't see any logic to them. I say this as someone who's played this game for a while - you can catch them plagiarizing, lying, contradicting themselves, getting things completely wrong, and... they generally don't blink. They just move on as if it never happened, because it simply doesn't matter.

    Yes, well, I'll look. But for a nominalist what can "health" possibly mean?

    Hey, if they want to completely jettison all talk of health, sanity, comparisons and contrasts, they're more than welcome to do so. Personally? I've run into multiple people who start out with 'Well, obviously he's mentally ill', but who try to run back and say 'Well no he's totally sane and healthy!' the moment the repercussions of that at worked out.

    You ever notice how hard it is to find a consistent nominalist?

    ReplyDelete
  36. "Here's what I find works well: I ask people to tell me if this (fictional) guy is sexually healthy. And from here, quite a conversation can be had. "

    The "Ironist" would no doubt approve of it at the banquet table. And then go on to claim it was cruel either to fail to applaud vigorously in solidarity, or to look suspiciously at what's placed under the bun on your plate.

    Feelingly feeling the feelings of feeling others ...

    ReplyDelete


  37. "You ever notice how hard it is to find a consistent nominalist?"

    Even a sane one.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I'm not going anywhere.

    Sounds like a threat. And a good reason for Feser to slap down a restraining order.

    But Pope Francis himself, signalling an interest in evolving on gay issues, said recently, "Who am I to judge?"

    Well, that's a lie.

    ReplyDelete
  39. DNW,

    The "Ironist" would no doubt approve of it at the banquet table. And then go on to claim it was cruel either to fail to applaud vigorously in solidarity, or to look suspiciously at what's placed under the bun on your plate.

    Ha. Thankfully, I think the Ironists are in short supply, at least for the moment. There's still an emphasis on at least appearing to have a deep, thoughtful and something-approaching-sane attitude about it all. But search the internet (or the universities) long enough, and I bet you'll turn up someone feverishly working on a paper entitled "Burger-Queering Wendy's: Towards a Mutually Positivizing Integration of Sitophilia and Value Menus".

    ReplyDelete
  40. Crude,

    I think I can comfortably agree with just about everything you said in response to me.

    I do have a misgiving about this statement:

    "A bit like how when people talk about the morality of sex, the conversation tends to zero in precisely on 'committed monogamous relationships where two people want to express their love for each other', which is funny, because in the world I live in a lot of people just plain like to fuck."

    While it's true that I enjoy physical intimacy with my wife, it's not simply because "I like to fuck." If that were the case, I could substitute any pretty lady (or fellow) for her, depending on my mood. There's something important, though, about my wife being that person that I am enjoying that intimacy with. It seems to me that a person's appetite might be disordered, in that who they want to fuck cannot properly satisfy the ends of fucking, but that they might, on another level, relate in a healthy way - e.g. desiring mutual intimacy with a particular person for who they are, rather than desiring just any old orifice or pleasurable activity.

    There are plenty of heterosexuals in which this is reversed, where the appetite, in a sub-personal sense, is properly ordered, but their ability to relate to others is disordered at the personal level. For example, a woman fantasizing about a man other than her husband during intercourse.

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  41. Matt,

    While it's true that I enjoy physical intimacy with my wife, it's not simply because "I like to fuck." If that were the case, I could substitute any pretty lady (or fellow) for her, depending on my mood.

    I wouldn't deny that. I wouldn't even minimize it. But as a guy who actually sometimes notices the world? I'm not describing some odd minority out there. It's pretty prominent, including with 'couples'. Conversations about sex seem unusually bracketed among many, where the presupposition is that everyone is engaging what they're engaging in as an act of extreme specialness and spiritual unity.

    Put another way, it's as if our every conversation about eating came with the express or strongly implied presupposition that just about everyone eats purely to gain nutrition and energy, and the sizable number of fat slobs somehow never is accounted for and never comes up. Kind of glaring.

    ReplyDelete
  42. "I wouldn't deny that. I wouldn't even minimize it. But as a guy who actually sometimes notices the world? I'm not describing some odd minority out there."

    Agreed. I think you're describing most people - love makin' is a skill that must be cultivated, it doesn't just inhere in any old sex act. Most people fail to ever foster the conditions necessary for the cultivation of that skill, but they want you to respect their person where "their person" is just, as DNW puts it, whatever assemblage of desires and drives happens to be standing in front of you right then.

    Anyways, thanks for the conversation!

    ReplyDelete
  43. "Most people fail to ever foster the conditions necessary for the cultivation of that skill"

    or,

    "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by."

    ReplyDelete
  44. @ Santi

    With regard to Scott, I'm calling bluffs here. It's easy to throw short rhetorical bombs from behind Oz curtains at people like me who risk making positive statements in full paragraphs.
    ...
    Take a direct shot at answering the following question in a full paragraph or more without resort to something Feser or Aquinas said. No pointing. Just you talking.


    As I've said, we have all talked with you at great length in the past. I have answered questions you ask in the paragraph that follows very specifically. It is quite rich for you to talk of "throwing short rhetorical bombs"--for you have been repeating yourself for months and rarely attempt to give arguments for your positions.

    Why, exactly, should two women in their forties, both their husbands dead and their children grown, not be allowed to have a same sex marriage within the Catholic Church? Why is same sex marriage flatly unthinkable in this instance?

    There is nothing wrong per se with "rethinking things and making them new." There just need to be arguments that defeat the arguments currently in existence and show us why we shouldn't accept them.

    Why cannot two women be married in the Catholic Church? There are two forms of answer to this question. (a) Their sexual relationship is immoral. (b) It is impossible for their union to be a marriage.

    I have defended (a) against you in the past, your present posturing notwithstanding. But (b) is sufficient for answering your questions, so I'll just pursue that. To say that such women are "not...allowed to have a same sex marriage within the Catholic Church" is to misdescribe the situation or, at least, to beg questions. The issue is not: These women can marry, but the Church won't let them get married within it. The Church does not allow them to marry because it has no choice in the matter; even if Pope Francis presided over their "wedding" they would not be married. The Church can't disallow them from being married because it is not open to the Church to allow them to be married.

    What do I mean here? When we talk about marriage, we are picking out a particular institution in an act of ostension. It is the sort of fruitful community that leads to the reproduction of society and the Church. It is the sort of community that traditionally could only be realized between two individuals if it could be consummated by those individuals - whether they were fertile or not. Because two women could not consummate a marriage, they could never be married.

    Why can't we drop this requirement? Well, go ahead and try. Marriage does not make sense if you do. If you drop the requirements that marriage be procreation- and consummation-apt, then what is left is a mere contract between individuals who love each other a lot. But if you let marriage be that, then there is no reason in principle why marriage should be sexual at all. If married couples need not be open to reproduction, then other marks of Christian marriages--exclusivity, monogamy, and permanence, for example--do not make any sense. There is simply nothing left. The extent to which the institution of same-sex marriage would be compelling is the extent to which sexual relationships between same-sex couples can look a lot like real marriages. But that does not change the principle that abandoning the traditional conception of marriage unwinds the rest of the institution.

    ...

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  45. ...

    For that reason, it's really no surprise that homosexual unions are in many ways less stable than marriages. To understand them as being permissible is to commit oneself to a view of marriage in which exclusivity, monogamy, and permanence make no sense. Homosexuals are, of course, not at all the ones who are mostly responsible for this decay. For insofar as heterosexual marriages have failed to realize the various essential aspects of marriage, especially insofar as people routinely enter marriages with no intention of making them fruitful marriages, same-sex marriage seems like a plausible concept.

    Now, you could say, hey! Let's accept all that. Let's change what we mean by marriage. But then the answer to your question is: The women can't be same-sex married in the Church because their union is only equivocally a marriage.

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  46. @Crude: "The people you're talking about? See, the thing is, I don't see any logic to them. I say this as someone who's played this game for a while - you can catch them plagiarizing, lying, contradicting themselves, getting things completely wrong, and... they generally don't blink. They just move on as if it never happened, because it simply doesn't matter."

    Isn't that just postmodernism in a nutshell? And isn't it ultimately a justification for being dishonest; for not even attempting to tell the truth?

    Because I believe that is true, I don't see any direct object in disputing with them, as you cannot dispute someone who will not debate honestly. Now, the fact that you can, in so doing, show others the pomos' errors, that is another matter, and a worthy goal.

    @both Matt and Crude:

    How much of the attitudes you describe in your most recent comments is just a function of our culture's impoverished discussion of sex? People just discuss sex in the way they've been trained, with the odd juxtaposition of pure animality with a sort of hyper-spiritualizing of romance? Newspeak at work, I guess.

    (I did notice that, back in the 90s Austen boomlet, some people spoke a bit more sanely for a while. but it didn't last.)

    Finally, how is it that we can express concern about the number of "big fat slobs", but it's hate speech to make a similar comment on those whose sex lives are equally uncontrolled? (The latter is "slut shaming".)

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  47. Also, Santi, with regard to accusations of changing the subject: On the previous page, you took issue with the use of scare quotes in the expression "same-sex 'marriage'". I pointed out that the quotes are used to indicate that a same-sex marriage is a marriage only in an equivocal sense. Your response to me changed the subject to the red herring of the biological genesis of sexual orientation. You repeated the charge that the quotes are there as "scare quote snark" and are "a form of disrespect".

    But the "biological data point" no more shows that there is no equivocation between "marriage" and "same-sex marriage" than a "biological data point" supporting a biological basis for pedophilia would show that there is no equivocation between "marriage" and "father-daughter marriage".

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  48. George,

    Saying "big fat slobs" is "fat-shaming", and that is a real thing, though not as well known as "slut-shaming" because of thin privilege. Another term you might see around is "neurotypical", so, for instance, a person suffering from mental illness isn't ill, they're just not neurotypical (or, more mildly, certain forms of mental illness aren't really illness, or the debilitating aspect of the illness is simply socially constructed). The list goes on and on.

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  49. To be fair, "slut-shaming" is a term that refers to criticism that is directed at women whose sex lives are uncontrolled, and, as I understand it, has something to do with criticizing the apparent double standard when it comes to men's sex lives. I don't mean to defend the rhetoric, but it is true that there is a double standard.

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  50. George,

    Isn't that just postmodernism in a nutshell? And isn't it ultimately a justification for being dishonest; for not even attempting to tell the truth?

    Definitely for some people. In general? I think there may hit a point where the very idea of 'telling the truth' or 'truth itself as a good, regardless of what that truth is' is just an alien idea. Truth is just another name for marketing for them, and that idea is only fleetingly recognized as a corruption from a loftier ideal.

    How much of the attitudes you describe in your most recent comments is just a function of our culture's impoverished discussion of sex?

    A good amount, no doubt. Not total - I'm sure these are themes reaching back to the Fall - but there's definitely an effect there. Well, effects.

    People just discuss sex in the way they've been trained, with the odd juxtaposition of pure animality with a sort of hyper-spiritualizing of romance? Newspeak at work, I guess.

    Actually, what I find striking is the doublespeak, and what's left unsaid. It's one thing to just blatantly bullshit, but as I've said, I'm impressed at how people will describe it as if primarily non-romantic motives - putting it real effing gently - don't exist, or are mere oddities.

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  51. ugh, sorry, triple post...

    it is true that there is a double standard when it comes to men and women and their sex lives, generally speaking. That's an important difference between "slut-shaming" and "fat-shaming", since a person who is fit is not enjoying a double standard, whereas a man who sleeps around is.

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  52. A thought experiment:

    A person is offered a night of passion with someone they desire or a full length lucid dream of the same experience. From the standpoint of the experience it should make no difference – yet I think the overwhelming majority of people how take up the offer would go for the first option. Whys so? Does this express a mere ‘bias for reality'?

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  53. Santi,

    I'm not going anywhere.

    So, you're going to keep trolling? Eventually, I'm sure Dr. Feser will simply ban you if you don't change your ways.

    Anyway, the point about Sullivan is simply that he wishes marriage to change and is not, therefore, defending traditional marriage and just trying to expand it for homosexuals.

    As current society shows, if society embraces a more open and less serious form of marriage, it will compete with traditional marriage.

    If you don't have an idea by now of why Thomists and Christians believe marriage is traditional marriage, then you are a worse troll than I thought.

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  54. Crude,

    Is it not true that there is at least something a bit odd about a chaste male couple engaging in some of the romantic, though not sexual, aspects of a homosexual relationship? Obviously, such a relationship would be a huge temptation, but even apart from that I think much of the romantic functions of such relationships that are meant for heterosexual couples and not homosexuals ones.

    Matt Sheean,

    I agree about there is a moral double-standard in slut-shaming, though it should be pointed out that most people who use the term don't want men equally to be held to account for such behaviour; they want no one to held to account for such behaviour.

    I do think, also, that, whilst male and female promiscuity are morally equal, they aren't necessarily socially equal. Female promiscuity is socially worse because it is an appetite, generally, much easily fulfilled, and therefore more likely to have a social effect.

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  55. Santi writes,


    With regard to Scott, I'm calling bluffs here. It's easy to throw short rhetorical bombs from behind Oz curtains at people like me who risk making positive statements in full paragraphs. It's also easy to point to what others have said with links, or to refer to general ideas with brief pointing--all without actually grappling with the messiness of specific instances.

    And of course ad hominem, changing the subject, and demonizing opponents (and making it about them) are the easiest rhetorical moves and shifts of all.


    Are you being serious? Do you have no self-awareness? You never argue properly. You engage in constant fallacies, and your main way of arguing is repetitive emotional ramblings. In short, you are a troll. That you have the gall to make comments like that quoted just add to this impression of you.

    Now, kindly change your ways or go away. No one here takes you seriously or is troubled by any substance in your comments.

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  56. Jeremy,

    Is it not true that there is at least something a bit odd about a chaste male couple engaging in some of the romantic, though not sexual, aspects of a homosexual relationship? Obviously, such a relationship would be a huge temptation, but even apart from that I think much of the romantic functions of such relationships that are meant for heterosexual couples and not homosexuals ones.

    Depends on what you mean. I can imagine some scenarios that would be odd, possibly unhealthy - a bit like how people can become way, way too attached to their pets, and I'm not talking sexually here. But that particular conversation is going to be radically different. No more Leviticus. No more Saint Paul. No more CCC, at least not the previously relevant portions. In fact, what do you have when romance is devoid of sex - and I include in that sexual temptation? Is that even romance anymore?

    Now, the love can remain, but I think people who equate love with romance are working with an incomplete view of things.

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  57. Crude,

    But doesn't risk somewhat simplifying love? There are different kinds of love, traditionally.

    What you are describing is not simply philia, but eros stripped of sexual intercourse. Presumably, though, from a natural law viewpoint eros is innately heterosexual, our romantic aspects and functions are shaped by their normal heterosexual quality. Although there are no doubt parts of such relationships that are perfectly acceptable, there should surely be parts of homosexual romantic relationship, even absent sex, that are distorting our romantic aspects.

    The other side of merging eros and philia in this way is the common modern view that great male friends are likely lovers. Progressive revisionist history in particular is very fond of such assumptions.

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  58. Jeremy,

    What you are describing is not simply philia, but eros stripped of sexual intercourse.

    Stripped of intercourse and sexual attraction. They're both part of sex.

    Although there are no doubt parts of such relationships that are perfectly acceptable, there should surely be parts of homosexual romantic relationship, even absent sex, that are distorting our romantic aspects.

    Quite possibly. What are they? The ones absent sex and sexual attraction. What shall we be condemning here? And on what grounds?

    Note that that's not a challenge, as if I have an ace up my sleeve that I'm waiting for the opportunity to lay out on the table. It's an honest question. I do think far and away the most obvious examples you're going to come up with are simply going to rely on sex or sexual attraction. The remainder are going to be limit cases which I think may well apply to anyone, homosexual or not.

    But maybe I'm wrong, eh? What do you have in mind?

    And maybe this will help. I am not saying that the utterly chaste homosexual - or even the homosexual completely devoid of sexual desire one way or the other - is functioning perfectly well in the eyes of the church, or in Natural Law. But at that point we're no longer talking about a homosexual anyway, or at least no problem exclusive to homosexuals. A heterosexual woman who doesn't really care about relationships with men at all and is perfectly happy to grow old, all alone except for herself, bon bons and two dozen cats, arguably has a problem. But it's not a problem exclusively related to LGBT topics.

    The other side of merging eros and philia in this way is the common modern view that great male friends are likely lovers. Progressive revisionist history in particular is very fond of such assumptions.

    Progressive revisionist history can't stop having sex with any object of their affection. Paraphrasing Eddie Murphy, 'They can imagine fucking anything that moves. When they come over my house, the fish stop swimming.'

    Of course, that's unfair. They can imagine deep sexual attraction to the utterly immobile too. I don't take them seriously. I don't think they take themselves seriously, not really. At that point it's going through the motions, part of their religion.

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  59. Crude,

    Ah, yes, if one is talking about sexual attraction then it is hard to imagine that eros could be absent this. But then doesn't that imply even chaste homosexual romantic relationships are suspect because they're bound to feed sexual attraction even if the couple never has sex.

    My point is more that the love in a romantic relationship, even if you can exclude sex and sexual attraction, is different to the philia one gives to a great friend or the storge one gives to a parent or sibling. There is a commonality to the love and relationships, but there are important differences. The way we think of lovers and how we care for them is distinct from how we do so for friends or family. Of course, it is certainly true that one of the hallmarks of eros is sexual attraction, if that is excluded along with actual sexual intercourse, then that would make it closer to other forms of loving relationships, though I don't really see how it could be excluded and still be a romantic relationship. So we largely agree, I guess.

    I will say that traditionally all these forms of love have been seen as openings to agape, as long as the love is developed in an ordered way. Presumably, homosexual romantic relationships are not capable of developing their eros to make open it up to agape.

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  60. I'm not sure how to best explain it, but I will say though, that although eros is bound up with sexual attraction, it is not reducible simply to sexual attraction, at least when it is properly ordered and developed. And that part of it that isn't sexual is not all just philia or friendship either.

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  61. Jeremy,

    I'm not sure how to best explain it, but I will say though, that although eros is bound up with sexual attraction, it is not reducible simply to sexual attraction, at least when it is properly ordered and developed. And that part of it that isn't sexual is not all just philia or friendship either.

    Hey, it's a complicated subject, I will grant you - at least getting into what is love, etc. We're dealing with disordered desires which can make for quite a wreckage to sift through.

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  62. Santi,

    Thanks, that's good. At least evolutionary permissibly is a good principle to start with. But I have a very hard time seeing how it excludes zoophiles, nekrophiles, and incestors. So my problem remains.

    I suspect that today's liberals are tomorrow's conservative. And in about 20-30 years they will be holding off the new civil rights movement of the earlier described fellows.

    You are right to think that rape is more abhorrent than bestiality, because it's based on harm to a sentient being. But that doesn't make bestiality non-abhorrent. Or does it? Maybe I am screwed up and being intolerant? Can you imagine how in 20 years they will be calling us bigots for not letting a guy marry his dog?

    Of course, another possible way out of this predicament is medicine. So far as I know, bestiality is classified as some psychological disorder, while homosexuality is not. But it was. Just about 10 years ago. And who's to say that bestiality won't get reclassified?

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  63. Greg:

    Thanks for attempting a full reply, but the arbitrary nature of why you start and stop your arguments where you do is on dramatic display in what you've written, for obviously, there is nothing "immoral" whatsoever in sex between two women beyond their reproductive years. Their bodies are in no manner harmed (indeed, they are exercised); equality is advanced; human pair-bonding is enhanced; and a measure of liberation, autonomy, and control over the terms of their own own pleasure and bodies are asserted.

    Such a lesbian encounter is evil only if pleasure itself is evil; only if things like going to a restaurant for a nice meal or drinking wine are evil; only if existence itself is evil. What is the point of taking on a contingent existence at all, if one's contingencies are prohibited from expression? It's as if one expected a bird to never use its wings.

    And women in their forties who sleep together are engaging in a political act, offering pushback and a healthy alternative to men's domination and control over women generally--and thereby nudging human cultural evolution more in the direction of bonobo rather than chimp behavior.

    So if there's anything immoral here, it's your curt saying no to the lives of these women. It's life denying, it's unimaginative evolutionarily and politically, and it lacks a baseline of empathy.

    Even in The Rule of St. Benedict (chapter 40), there is allowance for wine drinking for the monks and nuns--precisely because they rebelled at what they took to be an unreasonable restriction. Go read it.

    Perhaps if enough gay Catholics rebel and act up against unreasonable limitations on their own lives, the Church will do a "Benedict," evolving toward some reasonable compromises with gay and lesbian parishioners.

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  64. Kirill:

    I don't think that incest is especially difficult to justify (in terms of keeping it illegal): it clearly poses genetic risks to progeny. And evolution confers a good deal of instinctual abhorrence of it between brothers and sisters. Usually, if a pregnancy occurs, it's an adult family member sexually abusing a non-consenting early teen, so that too is easy to justify (again in terms of keeping it criminal).

    The only conceivable push beyond gay and lesbian marriage and equality in the near-future is (perhaps) some allowance for polygamous arrangements. I could see some traction for that, and perhaps some libertarian sympathy for it.

    Another issue (perhaps a century from now) will be issues surrounding hybridity and cyborgs: can you marry your robot or those that, thanks to lab techniques, are species blurring hybrids? We are taking over our own evolution, I think that's clear.

    And one can imagine Neanderthals recovered from extinction, and growing as a population a century from now. Neanderthal and Homo sapien love? Certainly, Hollywood will get there before science, with some story of a Homo sapien Romeo and Neanderthal Juliet kept apart, but trying to find one another, set in 2075. The science probably won't be there by 2075, but it will get there eventually--and what then?

    As for bestiality, it's not an entirely uncommon phenomenon among young teen males who live in rural communities (experimenting with sexual curiosity), but demographers tell us that 90% of all humans on the planet will live in cities by the end of this century, so I doubt there will be a critical percentage of the population clamoring for bestiality rights.

    Another issue is virtual reality. Why get it on with a real sheep if you can do it in a virtual reality chamber with such vivid realism that you literally cannot tell the difference? That's obviously coming a hundred years from now (a porn option that a tiny minority might indulge in).

    So I'm guessing gay and lesbian marriage equality will be, basically, the end of the civil equality line--at least until technology poses new dilemmas a century from now.

    Really, from the vantage of a historian 200 years from now, the early fights over gay and lesbian marriage, gender reversal surgeries, transvestite rights, etc. will be seen as tropes for debating the ethics of what to do as humans take on ever more dramatic Promethean powers (guiding our own evolution, hybridity, cyborgs, etc.).

    Debates surrounding gays, lesbians, transgenders, etc. are debates about the liminal.

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  65. Greg:

    You wrote: "Why cannot two women be married in the Catholic Church? There are two forms of answer to this question. (a) Their sexual relationship is immoral. (b) It is impossible for their union to be a marriage."

    Notice that, with regard to (a), you do not specify which acts, exactly, are immoral, and why. And to hold the immorality position, you would have to, at some point, chase down your justifications for treating sexual pleasure qua pleasure (absent procreation) as immoral.

    You would also need to explain why, given that irreducible sexual variation along a continuum is a characteristic belonging to every species on the planet--including homosexual behavior documented among more than 300 species--it is nevertheless wrong for consenting adults to express a similar range of sexual variation--even if their orientation is "hardwired" (or very nearly so).

    And what is moral, exactly, about consigning to abstinence individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation? It's like consigning a cat to never using its claws. What's the compelling reason for doing this?

    As for (b), if the ostensive definition of marriage in the Church has, to date, been the fruitful community (reproduction of society and the Church), given that the human population now has zero problems sustaining itself and reproducing cultural forms, why can't the 2% of the human population that is gay and lesbian now have access to the Catholic institution of marriage (exactly like older infertile couples can)? Doesn't the fact that we are out of collective danger, reproduction-wise, suggest generosity? Can't the Church's visible presence evolve in light of overpopulation?

    Thanks to things like antibiotics and vaccination, we've mastered the planet. There's no danger of either human beings or Catholicism going extinct if people aren't generating large families. Why does everybody in the contemporary grace community, of reproductive age, have to earnestly multiply--or not use their sex organs at all?

    Things that made sense in the Middle Ages might make little sense in the contemporary cultural ecosystem.

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  66. @Matt,

    It might be rather late in the day for this question but what was the Scruton work on philosophy of sexuality you mentioned in a previous Santi thread?

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  67. Greg:

    Notice in your no-40-something-lesbian-marriage position that you also have an is-ought argument at work: the Church has a visible presence in the world that can be pointed to, akin to pointing to a fruitful and reproductive organism, and what it shows itself to be can only be realized if it is centered on large heterosexual families. Therefore, the character of what's given should tell us that marriage's definition ought not be tampered with--either now or in the future. The "is" dictates the "ought."

    The Wonderful Wizard of Ought.

    And so your ostensive definition functions as a "garbage in, garbage out" game, removing you and the Church from responsibility for the definition of things in the present. It's a form of bad faith; a form of "the devil made me do it."

    And you also insert a zero-sum game into the argument, implying that if gay and lesbian marriage is permitted, the church will simply be unable to realize its reproductive function in other ways (as if heterosexual Catholics will stop having sex and big families if gay and lesbian Catholics are also allowed to marry and have sex).

    So there's an implied and very conservative Lysistrata-style protest at work: the Church will stop reproducing and thus implode if gays and lesbians are allowed to marry. Conservative heterosexual Catholics will check-out, and big families will wither away.

    Thus the very definition of the Church and religious marriage that you've accepted dictates the conclusion, forecloses others, and (seemingly) ties one's hands.

    You wrote: "The issue is not: These women can marry, but the Church won't let them get married within it. The Church does not allow them to marry because it has no choice in the matter;..."

    Again, this is front-loading the argument in such a way that human responsibility and agency is denied. It is turning oneself into a machine for reproducing the will of the dead.

    You wrote: "What do I mean here? When we talk about marriage, we are picking out a particular institution in an act of ostension. It is the sort of fruitful community that leads to the reproduction of society and the Church."

    How does gay and lesbian marriage prevent this reproduction from being realized if these marriages are at the margins of this project (1-2% of all marriages)? Older Catholics who marry beyond their reproductive years don't function as a zero-sum game for the Church realizing its mission. Why would gays and lesbians marrying have this effect?

    Is it that any sex outside of strictly proscribed limits undermines the authority of the Church? Is that the bottom line here? An appeal to authority--the spell of which breaks when long-held positions change or reverse?

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  68. Daniel:

    I think, with regard to your dream v. reality thought experiment, the threshold is level of vividness generating a strong and wholly memorable impression on the mind, (potential) repeatability, and the ability to share the experience vividly with others (in the form of story-telling). The latter is a means of status seeking--"I slept with so-and-so" is more impressive than, "I dreamt of sleeping with so-and-so."

    And that means the rabbit hole is not more than two decades off--in terms of virtual reality. People may very well, in the near future, increasingly blow off the real thing (in terms of sex) for a virtual experience that is largely indistinguishable from it--and readily repeatable. And you'll even be able to share it with your friends. Hmm.

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  69. Greg:

    You wrote: "If married couples need not be open to reproduction, then other marks of Christian marriages--exclusivity, monogamy, and permanence, for example--do not make any sense....abandoning the traditional conception of marriage unwinds the rest of the institution....The women can't be same-sex married in the Church because their union is only equivocally a marriage."

    Your thinking here is very, very unimaginative. When a couple's kids are grown (for example), the marriage might well survive for decades after that--even if the children move to far off places and rarely come home or call.

    And there are different life stages. Old gay couples might be especially stable and monogamous, for instance. And so the marriage of two 40-something women is hardly an equivocal (doubtful) marriage. If an older infertile couple can have a marriage, two older women can have a marriage.

    You yourself wrote the following: "Insofar as people routinely enter marriages with no intention of making them fruitful marriages, same-sex marriage seems like a plausible concept."

    Exactly. You bemoan this, and make it out to be a bad attitude of some (many?) otherwise fertile married couples in their 20s to early 40s. They've invited marriage definition trouble here (in your view).

    But simply take away the willfulness of the fertile who choose not to reproduce, and make it about a biological fact (whether of elderly infertility or a homosexual orientation that is more or less hard-wired), and you've basically conceded there might be a place for gay marriage; that it's a "plausible concept."

    And since gay marriage in the Church would represent only a tiny, tiny fraction of all marriages--as is true of civil marriages--it's hard to see how it would "unwind" the institution. (I'll be curious to see how you make an argument that it's a zero-sum game.)

    So the marriage of two lesbian 40-somethings needn't be seen as either doubtful or liminal, but rather as an irreducible variations along a recognizable continuum--and something the Church could absorb even as it continues to realize its core reproductive mission.

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  70. @ Santi

    Notice that, with regard to (a), you do not specify which acts, exactly, are immoral, and why.

    Please reread my post. I said there are two ways to answer your questions, (a) or (b). Since (b) was sufficient, I simply defended that. I did not attempt to defend (a) because there was no need to.

    And what is moral, exactly, about consigning to abstinence individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation?

    Why do you keep doing this? Why do you describe homosexuals at a level of generality under which pedophiles also fall, and suggest that at that level of description you can make an argument for the permissibility of homosexual behavior without also making an argument for the permissibility of pedophilic behavior? Pedophiles are or can be "individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation." They, of course, are not really "consigned to abstinence"; they are free to marry. They aren't free to marry the object of their desires, because they can't and it would be immoral for them to engage children sexually.

    So for your appeal here to have force, it would need to be the case that we already know that what homosexuals desire to do is moral and that they really can enter into a marriage; otherwise, it's not the case that in virtue of being "individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation" they are in some way entitled to the satisfaction of whatever they are hardwired to desire. Your case forms a perfect circle.

    And you are completely unconcerned. If you continue to make this mistake, I will not respond to you. It's insulting that you put so little effort into forming your arguments.

    As for (b), if the ostensive definition of marriage in the Church has, to date, been the fruitful community (reproduction of society and the Church), given that the human population now has zero problems sustaining itself and reproducing cultural forms, why can't the 2% of the human population that is gay and lesbian now have access to the Catholic institution of marriage (exactly like older infertile couples can)? Doesn't the fact that we are out of collective danger, reproduction-wise, suggest generosity? Can't the Church's visible presence evolve in light of overpopulation?

    I don't think you've understood my argument. Marriage is the sort of institution that is essentially fulfilled by consummation and childbearing. Marriage is not means to the end of populating the world. It is itself good. Those features are what specify marriage. They are also what render it intelligible, as I argued, for its other defining characteristics that distinguish it from any old contract - exclusivity, permanence, monogamy - are unintelligible if its basis in consummation is abandoned.

    Gay and lesbian couples cannot be "given access" to marriage simply because marriage is a kind of community specified by its aptness for consummation. Gay and lesbian couples cannot consummate; they cannot realize one of the goods essential to marriage, so no union in which they enter would ever be a marriage, unless we abolish marriage and replace it with "marriage". (By this I mean that in doing so, we would be equivocating, for we are using the same word to refer to two things that are not the same, since one lacks an essential feature of the other.)

    ...

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  71. ...

    The talk of population size is a red herring since, as I've said, marriage is not a means to the end of increasing the population size. It's false to say that the human population now has zero problems sustaining itself. The only developed countries that can retain their population sizes are those who have enough immigrants or subpopulations that have not adopted contemporary western sexual mores. And some nations are worried about this. That is why within the next half centuries, Muslims will outnumber non-Muslims in some European countries, and Hasidic Jews will outnumber secular Jews in Israel. There is, you're right, little risk of people going extinct. The risk is more a matter of having sufficiently large working populations to support the aging population.

    Notice in your no-40-something-lesbian-marriage position that you also have an is-ought argument at work: the Church has a visible presence in the world that can be pointed to, akin to pointing to a fruitful and reproductive organism, and what it shows itself to be can only be realized if it is centered on large heterosexual families. Therefore, the character of what's given should tell us that marriage's definition ought not be tampered with--either now or in the future. The "is" dictates the "ought."

    Well, I guess this attempt at restating my argument can serve as a sign for anyone who had doubts before that you didn't understand it.

    No, my argument doesn't infer from an is to an ought. There's an implicit ought in the premises: That marriage is a worthwhile institution that ought not to be abolished. Then I argued that if marriage were defined so that it were possible for same-sex couples to marry, then marriage would be effectively abolished, for that institution is not marriage, and that institution is inherently unstable. By that, I don't mean that same-sex marriages are inherently unstable (though they may be) but rather what I said before: that a definition of marriage that removes its relation to procreation and consummation is apt to collapse, for it cannot provide good reasons why marriages should be exclusive, permanent, monogamous, or - for that matter - sexual or romantic. But if that definition of marriage renders marriage unintelligible and indistinguishable from any contract, then marriage should be either eliminated or retained in its traditional form. It shouldn't be eliminated, so its traditional form should be retained.

    (Regarding the premise that marriage ought not be eliminated: You asked me a question about why the Church cannot marry such women. Since that is the context you set up, I can support this premise that marriage ought not to be eliminated by saying that it was instituted by God and by Christ, that it has always been treated as a sacrament within the Church, and that it is importantly tied up in the Church's ecclesiology, according to which the Church is the bride of Christ. But the premise is also eminently supportable even outside of the Church context. I won't argue that, because your questions were about why a lesbian couple cannot be married in the Church.)

    And you also insert a zero-sum game into the argument, implying that if gay and lesbian marriage is permitted, the church will simply be unable to realize its reproductive function in other ways (as if heterosexual Catholics will stop having sex and big families if gay and lesbian Catholics are also allowed to marry and have sex).

    What I've said already serves to show that I made no such argument. However, the sentiment here is probably right: Insofar as a culture misunderstands marriage as the sort of institution that it is possible for same-sex couples to enter into, heterosexual couples living in the same culture will probably come to be confused about their own marriages.

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  72. ...

    You wrote: "The issue is not: These women can marry, but the Church won't let them get married within it. The Church does not allow them to marry because it has no choice in the matter;..."

    Again, this is front-loading the argument in such a way that human responsibility and agency is denied. It is turning oneself into a machine for reproducing the will of the dead.


    This is incorrect. I gave the example before: I cannot walk up to you and demand that you give me $100 because of a contract that only I signed. Why? Because the document I am waving in your face is no contract; it's a "contract". And because the terms are equivocal, it's a fallacy to suppose that my document, my "contract", has the same normative implications as real contracts.

    There's no denial of agency here. Humans are not helpless puppets because they can't, by sheer force of will, make "contracts" into contracts. Nor are humans - or the Church - mere machines because they can't make "marriage" into marriage. Something that lacks an essential feature of Fs can't be an F; that's just what "essential" means. There are no implications for the tragedy of human agency.

    Older Catholics who marry beyond their reproductive years don't function as a zero-sum game for the Church realizing its mission. Why would gays and lesbians marrying have this effect?

    Older Catholics (male and female) can enter into a community that is fulfilled and actualized by consummation. The essential feature of marriage that all gay and lesbian couples lack, then, is not lacked by older infertile marriages.

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  73. @ Santi

    You yourself wrote the following: "Insofar as people routinely enter marriages with no intention of making them fruitful marriages, same-sex marriage seems like a plausible concept."

    Exactly. You bemoan this, and make it out to be a bad attitude of some (many?) otherwise fertile married couples in their 20s to early 40s. They've invited marriage definition trouble here (in your view).

    But simply take away the willfulness of the fertile who choose not to reproduce, and make it about a biological fact (whether of elderly infertility or a homosexual orientation that is more or less hard-wired), and you've basically conceded there might be a place for gay marriage; that it's a "plausible concept."


    If a couple is accidentally infertile, though, then they do not intend to make their marriage unfruitful. They participate in a union that can be consummated and would be fulfilled by having children.

    The same is not true for same-sex couples are couples that plan to contraceive and abort all children. The former are essentially infertile; their union is not one that can be consummated and in principle cannot be fulfilled by having children. The latter intentionally frustrate the fruitfulness of their marriage.

    There's no analogy here, and the presence of infertile marriages does not open the door to contraceptive or same-sex marriages.

    Now, consider two other cases. Societies have traditionally recognized infertile marriages, but they have not traditionally recognized unconsummated marriages. Marriages that could not be consummated were invalid. The other case: Suppose that I marry someone I believe to be infertile in order to avoid having children. Now the fruitlessness of our union is not merely accidental, but I am ordering it to my marriage; that is, I am entering marriage with the intention of frustrating one of its essential goods. So I am not really entering a marriage.

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  74. Jeremy:

    You wrote: "[I]f society embraces a more open and less serious form of marriage, it will compete with traditional marriage."

    That's your claim, but is it true? What, exactly, is the zero-sum game that you take to be functioning here? How does the marriage of two lesbian women in their 40s harm someone's heterosexual marriage--or deter two young heterosexuals from getting married in the first place? Why can't this lesbian marriage and a heterosexual marriage coexist in the same society in a healthy way?

    Put another way, why do individual marriages need to conform to a Golden Mean as opposed to being akin to biological and cultural evolution generally (the emanating of irreducible variations along a continuum)?

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  75. I don't mean to respond to Santi, but he asked a question about a comment I made that I'd like to make more clear...

    "Who gave us this "idea"? Why do humans have this power to redirect the course of nature? What makes the idea immoral?"

    I was not necessarily arguing that surrogacy, sex-change surgeries and so on are immoral, but that certain so-called rights, say, for the same sex couple to have surrogacy covered by insurance, or the trans individual to have their transition so covered flow from the logic that gave us same sex marriage. I do think "prosthetic heterosexuality" is an apt description, though. It's one thing, say, for a fellow to dress up like Eddie Izzard, and another for him to seek to, as much as possible, "be" a woman. He's seeking the conformity of his body to what is normative for the other sex, rather than a change in what is normative period. It all looks very much to me like the "erasure" of differences rather than the celebration of them. So yea, I'm not saying it's a more problem, but I am saying it's a problem for the internal consistency of this view (that it seeks to both celebrate and erase difference).

    Now, Daniel,

    You might hear echoes of Scruton in my own comments so far when you read this*, and this*.

    I've read a little more Scruton on sex since the other thread, and it appears to me that the more pro-homosexual rhetoric in both articles above must be entirely from his co-writer, Phillipe Blond. Scruton has tended in his own writing to cast homosexuality as a perversion, though (from the bits I've read of his big book on sex) he considers it difficult to demonstrate. His view seems similar to the one that Scott has expressed elsewhere on this blog. I did think previously that Scruton looked more kindly on homosexuality than he does due to a lecture of his "sexual morality for heathens" in which he speaks interchangeably of hetero and homosexual romantic relations, and criticizes Plato as somewhat "neurotic" about homosexuality. On reflection I think that this was for the benefit of his audience, as he was primarily interested in attacking pornography and emphasizing the fundamentally personal aspect of sexual love.

    *http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/02/same-sex-marriage-is-homophobic/

    *http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2013/02/04/3682721.htm

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  76. "I'm not saying it's a more problem"

    oof!

    "I'm not saying that it is a moral problem"

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  77. Greg to Santi: Why do you keep doing this?

    I dunno, why do you keep feeding the trolls?

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  78. Santi,

    I know it is largely pointless to respond to Santi, but as he asked a relatively direct question, I might as well just state the main points.

    I will ignore the nonsense about golden mean and cultural evolution, as that question is just a rephrasing of why should he accept the Thomistic and other realist accounts of marriage, the arguments for he would be amply familiar with now, if weren't a troll.

    When it comes why traditional marriage and so called gay marriage cannot exist, there are several key points. The first is empirical. In our society SSM has come at a time when traditional marriage has been run down and SSM itself is intertwined with the forces running it down. Indeed, so called SSM is a further attempt to run it down. Now, this is just empirical evidence. It is does not prove it is necessarily so. But it does prove that in our society it is so now and for the foreseeable future.

    Now, it could be argued why can't a society in theory just give homosexual marriages the ideational framework of traditional marriage, especially monogamy, long-term fidelity, and the like. In theory this is possible, but it seems highly unlikely because homosexual marriage is framed largely in terms of romantic attachment alone, and there are not the considerations that Thomists and others point out define traditional marriage, that would encourage a society to think of a homosexual marriage like a traditional marriage, where monogamy and the like are considered necessary. And these two visions of marriage are hardly likely to coexist peaceably in a society. Indeed, they are different relationships.

    I have never found the idea that homosexual marriage would have no effect on heterosexual marriage very strong. Social institutions are always framed by ideational factors - the concepts, roles, and ideals that partly go to make them up in a particular society. If you change these, if you change how an institution and the roles within it are thought of in a society, then it seems quite possible that this will change how people interact with an institution. If you change how marriage is thought of, for example, it seems quite possible that people will approach marriage differently, both in terms of how and whether or not they enter into it and how they conduct themselves within it. Of course, this doesn't mean that so called gay marriage must have a negative effect on heterosexual marriage, but these considerations alone show it is quite possible it will have an effect and that effect could be negative and, even if there were no other issues involved, such changes should be approached cautiously.

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  79. There is something ironic in Santi's constant calls for changing of how we view concepts and changing our thought processes. Santi himself, after all, seems completely unable to expand his own thought processes to try and properly understand the Thomistic idea of marriage. It is patently obvious even now he has given no real consideration of the opposing viewpoint, He comes simply to pontificate. He is, in other words, a troll.

    He calls others unimaginative but, for example, he seems entirely unable to imagine how Thomism can allow infertile people to marry or marriage to continue past child bearing age. If he had any imagination or reasoning faculties he would see quite obviously that the Thomist doctrine is that man's sexual and romantic aspects are directed towards a heterosexual, monogamous relationship. A culmination of this relationship is reproduction, but if a couple cannot achieve this, their romantic and sexual aspects are still orientated towards marriage, and therefore their marriage is still valid, unless, as Greg points out, one partner is actively trying to avoid having children by marrying someone who is barren.

    Besides, though marriage is a natural institution, all such institutions can be regulated by positive law. This law should not violate the central purposes of the institution, but it can make minor adaptions to the circumstances of a particular society. If you have the state trying to engineer all marriages so all spouses are fertile this would greatly increase the role of the state in married and family life and it would also undermine romantic attachments that are connected to the relationship of marriage.

    This objection is not particularly strong, it seems to me.

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  80. Jeremy,

    "I have never found the idea that homosexual marriage would have no effect on heterosexual marriage very strong"

    I think that this sort of argument actually involves a little sleight of hand. That is, what the critic of SSM is saying is that, practically speaking, SSM will have an effect on the place of marriage within the culture. The SSM advocate is saying something more like, "If your view of marriage is true, the ontological status of your marriage won't be affected, so why worry about a shift in conventions?" It's (usually, I think) a rhetorical ploy to turn that metaphysical "mumbo jumbo" back on the natural marriage advocate.

    and since folks are still commenting, and Greg is trying to make clear to a certain someone the difference between marriage and "marriage"...

    I thought of a goofy little thought experiment recently that, I think, draws out a reason why marriage has had the shape it has in the past. Imagine a guy who has a little box, and on the box is a button and when he presses the button there is very small chance that someone within a 50 miles radius will be hurt. It's a magical box, how this happens doesn't matter, but that the box causes it is important. Pushing the button is also very pleasurable for this guy, and it is hard for him to resist pushing it. It seems to me that in this fantastical case, we'd have a right to know about this box, especially if we lived near this fellow, and we might want to institute safeguards for the use of the box. We might all put the box out in a deserted area, and allow him to push the button so long as he only did it within that designated area (or something like that). Even if we had a prophylactic, if you will, that ensured that the device would not harm anyone, we'd only have his word that he was using it if we entrusted it to him. Coming around to make sure he was using the prophylactic would involve invading his privacy quite a bit, a good deal more than his using the designated space to push the button.

    Suppose some other fellow has a similar box that gives him a similar feeling, but does not have the same possible effects as the first box. Suppose this fellow, for some reason, wants to have some space designated for him to use his box, perhaps because he is jealous of the privacy afforded to the other fellow in the designated area, or some other perk that comes along with it (the designated area has an incredibly clean bathroom!). When he argues for a space of his own, other folks point this out. He says, "well, but I could push the button, and I could hire someone who, might or might not cause some harm to someone within a 50 mile radius." Since this story is about a weird ideal little world, everybody wonders why he doesn't simply go enjoy his button in the privacy of his own home.

    Of course, children are a blessing not a harm, and there would be a lot more ways to deal with the box, so the analogy is not perfect. The point I want to draw from this little scenario is that in the first case, at least, the fellow has a duty to refrain from pushing the button within 50 miles of another person, no matter how much he wishes to (or how unlikely he thinks that this particular pushing of the button will result in harm). Put another way, being 50 miles away from any other person is the condition under which pressing the button is morally acceptable. In the second case, there is no similar duty.

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  81. also

    That little story, I think, might make more clear the nature of Jeremy's concern about the effects of SSM. Will, for instance, the second fellow take on behavior that reflects the duty had by the first (will he only push his button in the designated area, or will he sometimes and sometimes not), OR will it be so that the case for restricting the first fellow's 'button-pushing' to the designated area will be made weaker (will the first begin to think that his situation is unfair, or that the 'designated space' is a mere artifact of a bygone era)?

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  82. Matt Sheean,

    In part that is true (about the effects of homosexual marriage).

    I think also at the centre of such claims are what is, to borrow a term from Santi, a lack of imagination that leads to a narrow and one-sided telescoping of the effects on the ideational effects of so called gay marriage. That is, the supporters of SSM using these arguments narrow the focus entirely to the immediate and conscious effects on heterosexuals, especially currently married couples. From this perspective they have a point: a husband is unlikely to stop being faithful to his wife simply because SSM is allowed in the country or state he lives in.

    But the possible effects of a change in the concepts, roles, ideals, and so on of an institution, especially one as important as marriage and the family, on those thinking about entering into it and even those already married, and perhaps beyond these categories as society is an intricate and interconnected network of institutions and ideas, may go far beyond immediate conscious effects. It is quite possible a shift in an institution could cause a gradual but significant change in the ideational framework of that institution. And so it is quite possible that changes to the meaning of marriage, including those involved in arguing for the legitimacy of SSM, could have a negative effect on the institution of marriage, depending on your perspective of what is negative effect.

    Now, this doesn't prove that SSM will have a negative effect on marriage, or even that it will have a significant effect (there is also the case that SSM is far from alone in the changes to how we think and act when it comes to sexuality and marriage) on marriage, but I'm still bemused by those who smugly mock the idea it could have such effects.

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  83. @ Matt Sheean

    I think that this sort of argument actually involves a little sleight of hand. That is, what the critic of SSM is saying is that, practically speaking, SSM will have an effect on the place of marriage within the culture. The SSM advocate is saying something more like, "If your view of marriage is true, the ontological status of your marriage won't be affected, so why worry about a shift in conventions?" It's (usually, I think) a rhetorical ploy to turn that metaphysical "mumbo jumbo" back on the natural marriage advocate.

    I actually don't think that people who make the argument in question have this aim in mind, because I think they generally don't think that there's such a thing as an ontological status of marriage. I don't even think they recognize that that is what is at stake.

    I think that such claims proceed, where they are actually believed, from a naive conception of the public-private distinction. Marriage, it's thought, is sufficiently private that redefining it won't alter other marriages.

    I imagine sometimes such claims are more like Nietzschean appeals, when they aren't actually believed. An example would be the cases where activists advocate for same-sex marriage but are quoted in other places stating that their actual goal is to dissolve the institution of marriage itself.

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  84. It should be clear that government-regulated institutions are the main mechanism by which the state affects which norms are acceptable to society. The marketplace of ideas and physical coercion are important, but it is through institutions that ideas are translated into action and coercion given meaning. By altering an institution to include a behavior, the government is signalling its acceptance of that behavior. In the case of marriage, this signalling is the last step in a series of raising homosexual behavior to the same normative level of acceptance as heterosexual behavior.

    It seems pretty clear that altering marriage will have an effect on society. It also seems that this effect is designed to alter the norms that defenders of same sex marriage have. Over time, this change will increase acceptance of homosexual acts. At a minimum, this is what liberal proponents have in mind. Just examine Santi's posts. He constantly says that Catholics must change to conform to his conception of the implications of 'biological irreducibility.' Catholics must expand the love, etc. Such proponents don't just think that traditionalists (and especially their children) will come around, they are depending on it. They have the example of other norms once imagined immutable that have been abandoned.

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  85. "I actually don't think that people who make the argument in question have this aim in mind, because I think they generally don't think that there's such a thing as an ontological status of marriage. I don't even think they recognize that that is what is at stake."

    I agree, I suppose I wasn't very clear. The thought was that they think that marriage only exists because it is stipulated of this relationship or that, and that the traditional view that it is a natural kind of relationship is silly - but, if you believe that marriage does have a real pre-political character, then political decisions like the recognition of SSM can't affect that, right! As you say later in your post, it's not a very honest line of response, just a thing said to get the real marriage advocate off their case, so to speak.

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  86. Greg:

    Concerning marriage, I agree with you when you write that before gays and lesbians can ever be admitted into Catholic "marriage," it first must be known whether "what homosexuals desire to do is moral and that they really can enter into a marriage."

    But for your definition of "marriage" you write, "Marriage is the sort of institution that is essentially fulfilled by consummation and childbearing."

    So no gays or lesbians need apply, period (even if their sexual behavior is moral). The "p" has to go into the "v" for "marriage" to take place, and this form of consummation is essential to your definition, and therefore gays and lesbians can never be "married."

    So you don't feel the need to address the immorality question because the tidy definition already blocks gay and lesbian access ("consummation today, consummation tomorrow, consummation forever!").

    But while you take something ontological to be at stake in your definition of marriage, this is actually a language and power game at this point. The question really isn't: what is marriage, truly? That question has no ultimate answer. Instead, it's: who gets to define marriage--and why?

    Within the Catholic Church, this power question gets answered by who's on top within the institution--liberals or conservatives. It's a contingent historical question, not an ontological question. And it's the same in the civil arena.

    So it's clear that pro-gay marriage people are always going to put the conservative Catholic definition of "marriage" in scare quotes, and vice-versa (if not colloquially, at least in their minds).

    But neither side has the true definition, for there is no true definition--only human institutions, secular and religious, moving contingently through history.

    So there are ways of cutting this metaphorical marriage cake differently, and you've chosen yours. And other people will go on choosing theirs: there is a conservative Catholic way of cutting the marriage definition cake, and a liberal Anglican way, and a secular way that will be in line with Brown v. The Board of Education (as we'll discover this summer from the majority opinion of the Supreme Court).

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  87. @ Santi

    The "p" has to go into the "v" for "marriage" to take place, and this form of consummation is essential to your definition, and therefore gays and lesbians can never be "married."

    So you don't feel the need to address the immorality question because the tidy definition already blocks gay and lesbian access ("consummation today, consummation tomorrow, consummation forever!").


    The immorality question is important in general. But yes, that homosexual relations are morally permissible would be a necessary condition for the Church admitting such a thing as same-sex "marriage". It's not sufficient. There might be another necessary condition for the Church admitting such a thing as same-sex "marriage"; if I argue that homosexual couples cannot meet that other condition, then the question of immorality need not be addressed.

    When you say, "the tidy definition already blocks gay and lesbian access," you seem to suggest that my definition is gerrymandered. But it's not. Before people thought of sexuality in terms of orientation, before identity politics, before anyone entertained the possibility of same-sex marriage, consummation was thought to be an essential feature of marriage. That is why infertile couples have traditionally been permitted to the institution, but couples that could not consummate, under common law, could not be in a valid marriage. Hundreds of years ago, such a distinction had nothing to do with generating a post hoc justification for a definition of marriage that admits all heterosexuals and no homosexuals, for the definition doesn't admit all heterosexuals.

    But while you take something ontological to be at stake in your definition of marriage, this is actually a language and power game at this point. The question really isn't: what is marriage, truly? That question has no ultimate answer. Instead, it's: who gets to define marriage--and why?

    Within the Catholic Church, this power question gets answered by who's on top within the institution--liberals or conservatives. It's a contingent historical question, not an ontological question. And it's the same in the civil arena.


    This begs important questions. For I dispute that there is no ontological question about marriage. The fact that marriage is a social institution does not exclude a marriage-realist position.

    ...

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  88. ...

    Now, note this: You regard the question "who gets to define marriage--and why?" as a very important question. But why is it important? If the reality of marriage is a matter of positivist fiat, then the question is as important as the question "who gets to define 'axemal'--and why?" In other words, the fact that there is a lot of stake in defining marriage presupposes some understanding of marriage prior to the definition; marriage is important and, regardless of how it is legally enshrined, its real definition is subject to certain constraints--otherwise defining it would not be so important. (This point holds, of course, apart from whatever theological significance there is to marriage as a result of revelation. That is, this supports the view that there is an objective matter about what marriage is, even from a purely civil perspective.)

    Note also that I have given an argument for what I claim is the real definition of marriage. Some sort of marriage - whether it's marriage or "marriage" - is worthwhile. But "marriage" collapses in respect of its intelligibility; that is, it is ad hoc in what distinguishes it from non-marital contracts, for if there is no intrinsic orientation of marriage to procreation and consummation, then there is no reason to restrict marriage to exclusive, permanent, monogamous sexual-romantic relationships. In other words, if marriage is redefined, then there would be no reason to prohibit a group of lifelong bachelors from entering a marriage in order to acquire economic benefits. (This is not to claim that, if you redefine marriage, then such cases will arise. Rather, the claim is that eliminating marriage's orientation to consummation and childbearing is to remove its intelligibility as a sexual relationship. So if marriage is an important institution that is in some sense intelligible - which anyone honestly advocating same-sex "marriage" clearly believes - then marriage is essentially an institution that can be consummated by those involved, that is, an community of a man and a woman.)

    Finally, if this is your position, then you should not claim that your view is plausible for Catholics to accept. As I've pointed out, marriage was instituted by God and sanctified by Christ. In the Catholic Church, it's a sacrament. The Church's ecclesiology also substantially relies on a particular conception of marriage. You asked a question about marriage and the Church; the Church, even if - per impossibile - it could accept same-sex marriage, cannot treat marriage as a mere matter of convention. So here you seem to be admitting that your view of marriage does come at substantial cost for Catholics, even apart from the issue of same-sex "marriage".

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  89. @ Anon

    My reasoning for responding to Santi is this: I think we are entertaining a few substantive questions right now. He has been answered before, but I think it is important to show that he is not "dropping truth bombs" now that we have decided we won't engage his trolling. In this latter concern, I'm perhaps being a bit prideful. But the last couple posts, I think, have been helpful.

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  90. @Greg:

    "But the last couple posts, I think, have been helpful."

    Yours, yes. His, no.

    "But yes, that homosexual relations are morally permissible would be a necessary condition for the Church admitting such a thing as same-sex 'marriage'."

    Practically, yes, but in principle perhaps not. There seems to be, for example, no impediment to a Church-sanctioned, sacramental marriage between two "fully functional" hermaphrodites even though the Church couldn't approve "homosexual" use of their reproductive organs.

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  91. …assuming hermaphrodites count as being of "the same sex," as I'm taking it that they would.

    The real importance of this point is in showing that your (b) response earlier is the relevant one. As far as the question of Church marriage is concerned, it really doesn't matter what, if anything, the parties to the marriage are or aren't going to do with their sexual organs. What matters is that, even if they live completely chaste lives, there simply isn't any way for them to do so in a way that can even in principle lead to procreation.

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  92. Of course I mean "the question of Church marriage between same-sex couples."

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  93. (Likewise, of course, in recognizing and solemnizing heterosexual marriages, the Church doesn't condone non-chaste exercises of the reproductive faculty even within such marriages. It's sufficient that there is a chaste way for the parties to exercise that faculty and they aren't actively seeking to thwart it. The Church's fundamental problem with same-sex couples is that there isn't any such way. Even if there were no reason at all why e.g. mutual masturbation by lesbian couples were immoral or unchaste, just as there's no moral reason why one shouldn't walk on one's hands, that wouldn't alter the fact that by Catholic standards, their marriage would be an impossibility.)

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  94. Also, Santi, you did not respond to this:

    Why do you keep doing this? Why do you describe homosexuals at a level of generality under which pedophiles also fall, and suggest that at that level of description you can make an argument for the permissibility of homosexual behavior without also making an argument for the permissibility of pedophilic behavior? Pedophiles are or can be "individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation." They, of course, are not really "consigned to abstinence"; they are free to marry. They aren't free to marry the object of their desires, because they can't and it would be immoral for them to engage children sexually.

    So for your appeal here to have force, it would need to be the case that we already know that what homosexuals desire to do is moral and that they really can enter into a marriage; otherwise, it's not the case that in virtue of being "individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation" they are in some way entitled to the satisfaction of whatever they are hardwired to desire. Your case forms a perfect circle.

    And you are completely unconcerned. If you continue to make this mistake, I will not respond to you. It's insulting that you put so little effort into forming your arguments.


    I don't want to hear any bold assertions about biological determinism and sexual orientation unless you settle this matter. For the topic has been dropped for now, but we know that won't stop you in the future.

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  95. Greg:

    I notice that you put your toe (ever so delicately) in the water of making an (almost) zero-sum argument against gay and lesbian marriage when you wrote the following:

    "Insofar as a culture misunderstands marriage as the sort of institution that it is possible for same-sex couples to enter into, heterosexual couples living in the same culture will probably come to be confused about their own marriages."

    This strikes me as at once implausible and unnecessarily paternal: are heterosexual marriages really this confused as to purpose and psychologically fragile?

    People with kids know (at minimum) what their marriage is for (stability for the kids), and people without kids know what their marriage (at minimum) is for: close companionship (sharing a bed, a household, a life; someone to age with, etc.).

    No religion is needed for seeing the value of either of these things. No gay marriage poses any confusion about them whatsoever.

    I'm in a heterosexual marriage, and what I understand my relationship to be with my British wife is not in the least rendered problematic by gay marriage.

    Who are these frail and confused souls who might be demoralized by gay and lesbian civil marriage?

    I just don't see the zero-sum game--and you apparently don't see much of one either. Otherwise you would have made a much stronger case for it.

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  96. Yes, because it is not like heterosexual marriage is becoming less and less monogamous and more open and easy to dissolve.

    Now, so called SSM will only be one small influence out of the deluge of influences continuing to cause such the destruction of marriage, but the basis for homosexual marriage - that marriage is based entirely on sentimental affection - is explicitly destructive of traditional marriage.

    And it interesting, and quite expected, that you give a textbook example of the narrow and simplistic pro-SSM argument I mentioned to Matt; namely, you focused entirely on the immediate and conscious effects of legalising SSM on those currently married. Oh how predictable (not to mention unimaginative) you are Santi.

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  97. Jeremy:

    You wrote that same sex "marriage is based entirely on sentimental affection"--which is a straw man. Same sex marriage is actually grounded in raising kids, companionship, sharing a bed, a household, a life, aging together, etc.

    You know, very much like heterosexual marriage.

    And you immediately followed your first flunky claim with this: "[Same sex marriage] is explicitly destructive of traditional marriage." There's the zero-sum game claim from you again. Quite a one-two punch of mischaracterization and hysteria.

    "Destructive" is a strong word. And for that claim, of course you offer zip support (even though I've invited you to do so). If you say it enough, perhaps you'll believe it, but it's an open question as to how it will play with others. I know how it plays with me.

    Perhaps a gig on Fox News for ye?

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  98. Greg:

    You asked: "Why do you describe homosexuals at a level of generality under which pedophiles also fall, and suggest that at that level of description you can make an argument for the permissibility of homosexual behavior without also making an argument for the permissibility of pedophilic behavior?"

    I think the distinction is obvious, and I'm surprised you don't see it. This isn't complicated at all. Human sexual behavior falls along many continuums (from frequency of sex in a species to the kinds of sexual behaviors characteristic of it).

    Irreducible sexual variation along a continuum does not conform to a Golden Mean, and it occurs in nature for very good evolutionary reasons: one of those contingently inherited and irreducible variations might well pay off under the right contingent environmental circumstance.

    So evolution is about "whatever works." It's morally neutral. And that means that the continuum captures extremes, not just behaviors close to the norm. The continuum has a long tail in both directions away from the mean.

    The variety of sexual inclinations (bestiality, sado-masochism, fetishism, heterosexuality, orgiastic behavior, rape, pedophilia, serial monogamy, homosexuality, bisexuality, masturbation, oral sex, etc.) are what evolutionary variety spits out, and then we decide whether that can be integrated into a good society or not.

    It's a question of inclusion or exclusion.

    So the first good on which I'm premising a biological argument for gay marriage is that, if nature bequeaths to you a tendency or orientation, and if you can exercise it without harm to others, that's a good thing, and we ought to regard it as no worse than morally neutral.

    The idea of making a distinction between the private and the public helps here; as does the principle of "no harm"; as does the principle of irreducible variation along a continuum as "natural" (presumptively morally neutral).

    That's three principles that you, as a Thomist, have to overcome to say no to same sex marriage (in my humble opinion).

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  99. Greg:

    So when you write this--"[F]or your appeal here to have force, it would need to be the case that we already know that what homosexuals desire to do is moral"--I can only say NO (after having thought about it some more).

    It is enough to regard what they do as MORALLY NEUTRAL; as grounded in biological variation (which is morally neutral).

    If we can get that far, private/public kicks in--as well as the "no harm" principle.

    Beyond that, what can you say is "immoral" about what nature itself has bequeathed you?

    If irreducible variation along a continuum is morally neutral, the burden of proof rests on you to tell the rest of us what's "immoral" about two women kissing and taking turns rubbing off on each others' thighs (to cite a simple example of human pair-bonding).

    When you write that "'individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation'" are not "entitled to the satisfaction of whatever they are hardwired to desire," my question to you is: who entitles or divorces them from that entitlement? You? Is biological variation, the method that God (if God exists) uses to create new species, presumptively neutral morally or not--and if it is, how do you then decide that a thing cannot be integrated into the community as a good?

    If irreducible variation is not morally neutral, then how, exactly, does one decide that two women in their 40s are engaging in a moral abomination when they take pleasure in rubbing each other off?

    It seems to me you can't avoid the "why" question surrounding the immorality of gay and lesbian sexual behavior in relation to the morally neutral continuum of variation given organisms by evolution. It's one obstacle in the way of getting to the conclusion that this is wrong.

    I'm persuaded Brown v. Board of Education is going to be central to what the majority of the Supremes decide to do in June. It's going to loom large. And that case was grounded in a debate over the integration of a group with biologically inherited characteristics.

    This biological component to your opposition can't be bracketed; it can't be ignored as irrelevant to how we respond to gay marriage as a reasonable accommodation to a biological condition (a sexual orientation).

    Those opposed to gay marriage are going to have to deal directly with the widespread belief that their opposition amounts to "bigotry akin to racism" (to quote the NYT this morning). That means explaining why a gay or lesbian inherited variation is morally wrong, not just that it doesn't fit into a strictly patriarchal definition of "marriage."

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  100. Greg:

    So I say it's good if you can exercise your inherited inclinations--and want to do so. It is, after all, the inner logic of your inner organism. Just as one would think it sad for a bird not to fly, we should think it sad if an inherited inclination to a certain sort of pleasure can never, in fact, receive expression in those who want to express it.

    Pedophiles are thus born to tragedy, for society cannot permit them to exercise their inherited inclinations. And so I agree with you when you write this: "Pedophiles are or can be 'individuals with a hardwired sexual orientation.'"

    But I disagree with you when you then write of pedophiles: "They, of course, are not really consigned to abstinence; they are free to marry."

    You're playing Marie Antoinette here: "Let them eat cake!" You're giving them something that is not what they can actually access (in terms of desire).

    Like a bird that is issued a number for running in the Boston Marathon, but has no desire to do so (it wants to fly), so the pedophile is in an absurd and tragic situation. Nature has played a terrible, terrible trick on the pedophile that society cannot encourage or accommodate.

    Homosexuality is different. Like so many other sexual proclivities, it's inherited/hardwired, but unlike pedophilia, society can actually accommodate adult homosexual behavior without in the least hurting society's prospects.

    That's why, according to the NYT this morning, large law firms all over the country have declined to enter briefs to the Supreme Court opposing gay marriage. The chief reason? Because the best Constitutional lawyers overwhelming regard opposition as "bigotry akin to racism." In other words, they think of it in terms of Brown v. Board of Education. They regard it as discrimination and refusal of inclusion grounded in biology.

    And I agree. There are many thoughtful people who understand that if society can accommodate inherited human variations, it should do so. It should only restrict them for very, very compelling reasons.

    Address the morality question, Greg. What are those very good--even compelling--reasons for not integrating homosexual behavior into what we can collectively regard as acceptable human sexual variation?

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  101. Santi,


    You wrote that same sex "marriage is based entirely on sentimental affection"--which is a straw man. Same sex marriage is actually grounded in raising kids, companionship, sharing a bed, a household, a life, aging together, etc.

    What utter nonsense. The main argument for gay marriage, the one you yourself have put forward countless times whilst being totally unwilling to countenance or grapple with other perspectives, is that so called SSM is valid because it is based on love, an equal love to heterosexual love. You, like most pro-SSM folks, explicitly repudiate marriage being defined by anything more, such as reproduction. And the stuff about growing old is a red herring, as it is not the theoretical basis for the legitimacy of SSM in your argument or those of most pro-SSM folks.

    The rest of your post is, ironically, based on a strawman. I do believe that SSM is destructive of traditional marriage, but what I said in the post you replied to is that the basis of SSM is destructive of that of traditional marriage. That is, they have two distinct theoretical foundations that make them fundamentally different relationships. You dishonestly ignored what I actually said. That the foundations are distinct is obvious. One relationship is founded solely on sentimental affection whereas the other is founded reproduction.

    I noticed you ignored my others points above.

    I know you are a troll and more than once have seemed dishonest. How does that play with you?

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  102. Santi,

    Why is "irreducible biological variation" morally neutral? And, why does it "occur in nature for very good reasons?" Your assertion that it occurs to further the purposes of evolution indicates that you don't think it's neutral. In light of your characterization of evolution as an impersonal force with ultimate moral authority on human behavior, it would seem that you find this force's judgements to be moral judgements.

    Why should anyone else take this claim seriously? It underpins your arguments, since it is the reason you demand we reject realism. Why would people think that evolution, a concept that works by eliminating weak individuals in the natural world, is a moral arbiter that should be followed in a society of rational beings?

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  103. Heck, your latest posts to Greg, who has the patience of a saint to put up with your nonsense as he does, shows there is a dishonesty in your basic conduct here.

    Not only do you not seem to care about arguing properly, as you make obviously arguments, switch between arguments, commit rank fallacies all over the place, and so on, but you don't care about engaging in proper, constructive discussion. Your replies to Greg are a perfect illustration that for all the time you have spent here you have made no effort to understand the basic natural law teaching about morality, marriage, and sexuality. I don't expect you, necessarily, to have been converted by that teaching, but I expect you to know the first thing about this teaching and to try and seriously grapple with it.

    You are wasting everyone's time.

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  104. - that post was to Santi, obviously.

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  105. Greg:

    I also want to point out a problem of sexism that I see in your definition of marriage. Your definition essentially amounts to patriarchal marriage.

    Yes, I regard patriarchy as problematic.

    If you structure the definition of marriage so that women are basically vulnerable to pregnancy at each coupling, whence feminism? If one is subject to ending up barefoot and pregnant for much of one's fertile years, then we all know what, exactly, this entails for women's equality and lives.

    And that's not a moral "good." Or at least let's put it this way: "goods" are in competition (the good of having children vs. the good of women's independence and autonomy from the home; the development of an intellectual life, etc.).

    Women's liberation and empowerment are grounded in contemporary technology and the innovations of modernism (from contraceptives, to urbanization, to widespread higher education).

    So given the heavy patriarchal "loading of this [definitional] bed" that you've offered, women might well protest (and, of course, they do).

    We can conceive of marriage differently if we don't conceive of it in patriarchal terms. In the 21st century, it should not just be patriarchal marriage--marriage as imagined by men--that qualifies as marriage.

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  106. "If you structure the definition of marriage so that women are basically vulnerable to pregnancy at each coupling, whence feminism? If one is subject to ending up barefoot and pregnant for much of one's fertile years, then we all know what, exactly, this entails for women's equality and lives."

    My wife and I have two kids, and she's got a more stable career than I do. So... no, as long as the family structure is healthy, the woman can do quite a bit. If the family structure is unhealthy then pregnancy poses a problem to an already fragile environment - it's not just the woman that is "vulnerable" to it, but the whole community of which she is a part. That's an important part of the moral character of marriage.

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  107. I think we're all well familiar with Santi's argumentative style by now. When it comes down to it, the exchange seems to go like this:

    A: *Essentialist definition of marriage* .
    Santi: "Irreducible variations upon an evolutionary continuum".
    A: "That doesn't rebut my point at all."
    Santi: "Poetry. Put-down of Thomism."
    A: "I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore."
    Santi: "Ah, so you're just scared of revealing how arbitrary and stupid your arguments are!"

    Basically, the point where this *always* seems to break down is Santi's invocation of evolution. We wonder why he seems to think that this solves all difficulties, while he seems mystified as to why we don't see how it solves all difficulties.

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  108. So... no, as long as the family structure is healthy, the woman can do quite a bit. If the family structure is unhealthy then pregnancy poses a problem to an already fragile environment - it's not just the woman that is "vulnerable" to it, but the whole community of which she is a part. That's an important part of the moral character of marriage.

    He has a point here in as much as it means marriage is far more dictated by economic circumstances than it would otherwise be. To be fair there is still the option of NFP which isn't ineffective.

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  109. The main problem in his response was, apart from being vague and a blatant appeal to emotions, is that Santi begged the question and made an appeal consequences, in that he ignored Greg's actual argument and tried to dismiss it because of vague claims it might lead to sexism. If he made an actual argument about how natural law conception of marriage leads to sexism and why the sexism means it definitely must be wrong, then that would be different. But, of course, he didn't do that.

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  110. Daniel:

    The rhythm method? Is that what you're referring to as effective?

    I have to say that it's definitely guys night out around here.

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  111. Wait, I thought irreducible biological variation was something we need to embrace? Shouldn't we respect evolution's definition of sexual roles? Gestation occurs in females. Females should embrace the behavior evolution has determined for them. They should embrace fertility. Any attempt to keep traditional, feminist, definitions of choice and contraception are just bigoted attempts to control them. Clearly, the indentitypoliticsarchy, that impersonal force that shapes society in the privilegeds' interest, is an archaic and oppressive that must be confronted.

    But, now we learn that some irreducible biological variation is patriarchal. And since that contradicts Santi's definition of what a good life for a woman is, we need to embrace social and technological remedies to evolution.

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  112. Greg:

    Every adult living today knows that the world is full of people who don't share their particular beliefs and practices, whatever they might be. There are Mormons, Jews, atheists, etc. To be demoralized or confused that there is one more iteration out there in the world that wasn't before--in this instance, gay and lesbian marriage--should hardly result in a new-found level of "confusion" among heterosexual couples.

    It seems like people living in pluralistic democracies ought to be more resilient than this--and less paranoid.

    We all live in the same global and internet-linked culture. Absent Amish-style retreat, one can't really escape the presence of others, or speak outside of others' earshot, and gays and lesbians are not going to tip-toe away quietly.

    People erect a lot of hate and resentment on gays and lesbians--but they're really just a trope for much larger--and far more intractable--issues.

    The world is heading for huge icebergs over the next century--and gay and lesbian marriage is at least something small and tractable to fret and argue about.

    In 1963, when George Wallace stood in a doorway at the University of Alabama, focusing white hate and resentment on two black college students trying to enter, it wasn't just about desegregation, but nostalgia for a way of being in the world that was under threat. It manifested as conservative "don't tread on me" paranoia--and politicians appeared on the scene to exploit it. (They're still exploiting it.)

    Something to think about when the Supreme Court legalizes gay and lesbian marriage in all fifty states this summer--and uses Brown v. The Board of Education as a key element in its rationale.

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  113. Anonymous:

    You're thinking in terms of a zero-sum game. Every conservative woman can find her conservative man. I already said that (but you prefer to straw man). Having lots of children and women's liberation are competing goods. Women can make choices along a broad continuum--and those choices can be grounded in part or whole, by biologically inherited temperaments, orientations, etc.

    Some women will practice the rhythm method and marry conservative men; some will live in the city, not marry till 30, use contraceptives, and have one child before forty; some will have no children at all, focusing on career--and still marry. A woman.

    Let the continuum spread, and not treat patriarchal marriage as a Golden Mean.

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  114. @Jeremy,

    I was remarking on Matt's post really not Santi's. Tbh that fellow has least four not very clearly set-out and mutually incompatible lines of argument going at the same time (Biological Determinism, radical Existentialist freedom, sub-Blakean New Age stuff and Post-Modernism), all of which have ceased to be very interesting.

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  115. Cantus:

    That summation is fair: we're emphasizing different things, and discounting other considerations to zero or near-zero (perhaps aggravating the sensibility of the other side).

    Essentialist definition of something like marriage is especially dubious (in my view), and talking to a Thomist (I've learned) is like talking with someone who's playing King of the Hill. The Thomist hides behind an Oz curtain at the top of a mountain called metaphysics. He treats his conclusions as if he has proven a theorem in mathematics. No appeal to evidence or experience necessary, and he has no truck with history (evolutionary or otherwise). He's bracketed that off. No historicism (old or new), no reality testing, no contingency, no evidence. Just Aquinas and Aristotle's Golden Mean. Beyond that, little (nothing?) gets in, little (nothing?) gets out.

    How do you get a Thomist to fly down from his perch and enter history? Oh, well, you make it, and then he flies down to grouse about it. (Selling wedding cake to gays and lesbians? Hey, don't tread on me!")

    It reminds me of the end of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock," where he's in a dream state at a party, completely oblivious to his actual surroundings and situation, imagining mermaids by the sea, and then someone taps him on the shoulder and he drowns:

    I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
    Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
    When the wind blows the water white and black.
    We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
    By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
    Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

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  116. Santi,

    No, I'm not thinking in terms of any strategic interaction. I'm not arguing which goods have more value with you. I'm demonstrating an inconsistency in your argument such as it is.

    You're arguing about several things, but the one I am addressing is:
    (1) sexual acts are biologically determined.
    (2) homosexual acts don't interfere with others' sexual preferences.
    (C) homosexual acts are morally neutral.

    I have shown that you have argued that biological determinism does not confer a neutral moral status to a characteristic. You have in fact asserted that the liabilities inherent in women's child-bearing status are immoral despite what you say in your last post. Do you now deny that you see "patriarchy as problematic." According to your own statements, it is a result of biologically determined traits.

    Otherwise, biological determinism does no work for you here, and you are being inconsistent.

    Your response that, "Women can make choices along a broad continuum," demonstrates my critique. Here you must mean that woman can overcome their biologically determined child-bearing curse because of technology. You clearly hold a biologically determined characteristic to be a negative, since it reinforces patriarchy. Or, you meant to say is that women who don't want to bear children and follow the patriarchy can abstain from following their sexual preferences, but your argument has been just the opposite.

    Why then, should anyone believe you when you say that biological determinism forces us to consider individuals' characteristics as morally neutral, when you yourself do not?

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  117. Santi,

    What empirical evidence do you have that the qualitative aspects of sexual preference are biologically determined? Have you located the 'gay gene?' Do you know which hormones one can synthesize to change someone's sexual preferences? Or are these preferences just hard-wired into people in an irreducible way?

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  118. No,Santi, the accusation that Thomists "don't pay attention to evidence or experience" doesn't hold water, given that Aquinas and Aristotle famously begin their first philosophy by observing things that actually exist. So either you're wrong, or you mean something else by what you said.

    As an aside - I notice that you can be sure, when a post hits 300+ comments, that some argumentative so-and-so has shown up in the combox. At first it was StoneTop, then there was that brief infusion of New Atheist types, then Adam something (I cannot remember the surname he used online), and now we have Santi here.

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  119. Anon:

    Patriarchy is problematic insofar as it holds to a Golden Mean (whatever phallocentric ideal you have in mind), not admitting diversity along a continuum.

    And humans have brains (also an evolved organ), and so women who want to override other aspects of their biology with technology can do that.

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  120. Cantus:

    I had in mind things like the cosmological argument.

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  121. Santi,

    So for you, the problem is that everyone here is arguing from realism/essentialism? So, instead of providing evidence for your claims you wish to hide behind a nominalist metaphysical curtain?

    This is what everyone here has been accusing you of all along, but you've refused to actually engage them and simply asserted that a golden mean is wrong.

    In this specific argument, you've argued that if a trait is biologically determined, it shouldn't be held to a golden mean standard and such traits are then morally neutral.

    But that isn't what your examples show. You claim that some traits are not morally neutral because of their implications. Of course women can override aspects of their biology with technology. That is the observation that motivates my critique. Your problem with patriarchy stems from a biologically determined trait (females carry children) that society uses technology to overcome and you approve because female child bearing gives males a comparative advantage. Yet, in the case of homosexual acts or the case of civil rights you hold that biological determinism mandates that characteristics be neutrally interpreted.

    Which is it?

    This latter objection has nothing to do with whether a golden mean is a moral standard to uphold. You have grounded everything you say on the assertion that biological determinism demands society's acceptance, but later you repeatedly give an example of society rejecting a biologically determined trait you think has immoral implications.

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  122. Daniel,

    Yes, that is true.

    I should also say the main reason that my wife and I have had the freedom to "choose our own adventure" so far is that we both come from stable, two parent families, a stability which goes back, in some cases, many generations. Both of our sets of parents are college educated (my mother moreso than my father and I am the first of five siblings). All this hogwash about birth control is... hogwash. Sure, birth control affords more freedom to young women to do what they want - quite probably because there's already a solid base that they can strike out from.

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  123. "No appeal to evidence or experience necessary, and he has no truck with history (evolutionary or otherwise). He's bracketed that off. No historicism (old or new), no reality testing, no contingency, no evidence…"

    …no empirical knowledge of human biology, no understanding of human nature, no significant interaction with actual human history and actual cultural institutions like "marriage" and what they've actually meant to actually historical actual people, no recognition of any scientific facts about what sexual/reproductive organs do and whether or not anal penetration can lead to pregnancy…oh, wait.

    Hmm, gosh, now that I take all of a whopping half a moment to think about it, it seems that quite a lot of the Thomist case is empirical and historical, and my rhetoric is revealed as the airy nothing that it is.

    Never mind.

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  124. 'The Thomist hides behind an Oz curtain at the top of a mountain called metaphysics. He treats his conclusions as if he has proven a theorem in mathematics. No appeal to evidence or experience necessary...'

    Santi, how is it you've been on this blog for this long and you still haven't noticed that this isn't true?

    I don't pretend to have this entirely figured out, but I do know that at least some metaphysics is based on empirical evidence, because the distinction between act and potency is based on change, and we know that change happens empirically.

    If I can learn that, so can you.

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  125. "Why then, should anyone believe you when you say that biological determinism forces us to consider individuals' characteristics as morally neutral, when you yourself do not?"

    I'll repeat an episode I've described before involving a junior breed of the Santian.

    Like the kid said when he claimed that it was not "fair" that his brother got an after-dinner treat which he did not:

    "It's not fair"

    What does that mean?

    "It should be the same"

    The "same" is "fair"?

    "Yes"

    He was then asked, "Are you therefore saying that you should have to eat all your vegetables too before being rewarded, because he did? It should be exactly the same rule for you?"

    "No!" he said.

    Why not, if fair is the same and the same is "fair"?

    "Because 'fair', is only for the things you like"

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  126. Assume some moral system F where drinking alcohol is immoral. Though drinking alcohol is immoral, attempts at banning alcohol would almost certainly fail. Alcohol is too many thousands of years deeply rooted in Western culture. The law would never make it through the political process. If it did, the people would ignore it.

    If a law or policy cannot actually be implemented (is “un-implementable”), then it doesn't matter if it's morally preferable. Alcohol prohibition cannot actually be implemented. So it wouldn't matter if laws banning alcohol were ultimately morally preferable.

    Now, I know Catholics have no problem drinking alcohol, but I'm worried some policies based on natural law (or, maybe even, many metaphysically robust moralities) may fall into this category of “un-implementability” in contemporary North American society, or North American society for the foreseeable future – especially in rather more secularized parts of North America, like Ontario, Canada.

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  127. Daniel,

    Yes, sorry. I wasn't directly making my last post in response to you. It was just a general criticism of Santi's post.

    Santi's posts are almost literally nonsense. They are grossly fallacious, vague, emotion driven waffle. They are textbook cases of how not to argue, or perhaps how to troll.

    I am wondering if he is now trying to claim T.S. Eliot as a secret hedonistic materialist, as he erroneously tried to claim Blake.

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  128. Now, I know Catholics have no problem drinking alcohol, but I'm worried some policies based on natural law (or, maybe even, many metaphysically robust moralities) may fall into this category of “un-implementability” in contemporary North American society, or North American society for the foreseeable future – especially in rather more secularized parts of North America, like Ontario, Canada.

    I'm not sure why this would be a worry; natural law theory itself explicitly notes that it will often be the case that positive law will necessarily diverge from natural law (the doctrine of toleration). Actually, in Aquinas's own day there was a good example: prostitution. Medieval philosophers (including Aquinas himself) would be stunned if, having been transported to the modern day, they learned that prostitution is illegal. It was their paradigm example of something contrary to natural law but absurd to make illegal by positive law.

    The primary difficult, of course, is that people are quick to try to claim un-implementability in order to shut down debates; whereas in reality it has to be determined carefully and with prudence.

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  129. Just for the record, there is no ground whatsoever to say that Prufrock is in a dream state. Nor is it at all clear he is at a party.

    I think this counts as "close reading" nowadays. The best translation into normal English is something like "making it up".

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  130. @George LeSauvage:

    "Just for the record, there is no ground whatsoever to say that Prufrock is in a dream state."

    I think the only point in quoting Eliot is that he was sorta-kinda-Catholic and so it's fun to quote him against Catholics.

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  131. @Jeremy,

    Well with uber-Post-Modernist take on things it would make just as much sense to read Eliot as a hedonistic materialist as it would, say, Lucretius (or to read Santi himself as a proponent of SSM for that matter).

    By this point I'm pretty convinced he's ('Santi') is just someone joking around - he has a wider repertoire than most trolls and his contradictions are more flamboyant. His combination of Hume's 'all that exist are ideas and impressions' and Eliminative Materialism, the consequence being that nothing exists at all, had me smiling to myself all morning (though depressingly Allan Fox may have made a similar point in all seriousness elsewhere).

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  132. Apologies that should of course read: 'Well with his uber-Post-Modernist take on things'

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  133. Anon:

    You write of me the following: "Your problem with patriarchy stems from a biologically determined trait (females carry children) that society uses technology to overcome and you approve because female child bearing gives males a comparative advantage. Yet, in the case of homosexual acts or the case of civil rights you hold that biological determinism mandates that characteristics be neutrally interpreted. Which is it?"

    Are you really this confused? It can be both if the deciding factor is individual freedom and not the state taking a one-size-fits-all approach.

    So with regard to the woman who uses technology to overcome her reproductive biology, she has that option. I'm not denying her reproductive biology, only leaving her with the option of marrying a rural conservative and having a gazillion kids or moving to the city and perhaps having one or no kids.

    Her body, her life, her choice. No harm is done to society either way.

    In the second, if the state treats homosexuality as a neutral biological condition that does not in any way harm the human community's general prospects (and I think this is obviously the case), then gay and lesbian individuals can be left to decide what to do about it. Those who want to become religious celibates can do so, and those who want to enter into a gay or lesbian marriage can do that.

    Their bodies, their lives, their choices. No harm is done to society either way.

    In both cases, individual liberty, self-determination, and private conscience are the goods preserved.

    And the competing good of reproduction is left in play as well--but just to be privately determined.

    In the 21st century the human population has zero difficulty maintaining its numbers. Plenty of liberty can be accorded the individual in their reproductive and pair-bonding choices without in the least harming state or society.

    In the Middle Ages, when childhood diseases killed half of children before age five, the reproductive imperative was more urgent--and it made more sense to argue for reproduction as a trumping consideration overriding all others.

    But not today. Let freedom ring.

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  134. Anon:

    You speak of nominalism like it's a bad thing, but there's some irony here: Aristotle was the first nominalist, so you might say that I'm the actual follower of Aristotle here. Nominalism used to be the term of choice for contrasting him (as the forms in "name only" guy) with Plato (the "realist").

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  135. I wanted to see if I could salvage something like one of these harm principle based objections:

    If a current law F causes more net harm to people than law G would, we ought to replace law F with law G. Current marriage laws cause more net harm to people than would similar laws allowing homosexuals to “marry”. Therefore, we ought to replace current marriage laws with similar laws allowing homosexuals to “marry”.

    The first premise is just a crude spin on the harm principle. The second, I think Jeremy Taylor and a couple others said it's false because short-sighted, but I can't think of any obvious manner how it's short-sighted or why this so. So, maybe someone could clarify what's meant by that.

    As for slippery slope objections, I can't remember what was wrong with the consent defense as it pertains to children, so I'll go with that for children.

    As for bestiality, I'm not clear bestiality is less harmful to society than current laws against it (surely, for example, a hippopotamus or a pig might have diseases not yet introduced to humans – weren't chimpanzees the origin of AIDS?).

    Plus, I once visited a farm where I had the unfortunate experience of seeing an erect pig penis. I'm pretty sure those are harmful to humans. In short, I also think some forms of bestiality would, unlike human homosexual relations, be harmful due to much more extreme physical incompability.

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  136. Brandon,

    So natural law already accounts for that. Thanks.

    The primary difficult, of course, is that people are quick to try to claim un-implementability in order to shut down debates

    Indeed. It seems to be a standard politician's tactic.

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  137. Daniel,

    I have entertained the notion Santi isn't serious. But I don't think someone just joking would so persistent, unless they had a compulsion to troll. Plus, Santi has a blog where he posts the same sort of nonsense.

    https://santitafarella.wordpress.com/author/santitafarella/

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  138. I've had a modest insight: the dividing line that I've been trying to articulate between Thomists and myself can actually be pretty succinctly stated: Thomists take clues from the nature of form to guide them in how an issue ought to be navigated, and I'm arguing that we should take clues from the nature of change.

    Whether its women's "end" or the penis's, both appeal to aspects of nature that we actually observe, but one leads to an argument for conformity (follow the given, or an ideal derived from the given, or a Golden Mean), while the other appeals to allowances for nature's dicing of diversity (variant expression along a continuum).

    The Thomist position is grounded in hubris (one can know the right thing to do; one size fits all); mine is grounded in epistemic humility (we don't really know how the contingent inner logic of a variant might actually benefit the organism in its contingent environment, and thus how the future might play out if we take a hands-off or "let it be" approach to its expression).

    Both of us are reasoning from how we take nature to be most essentially (form v. evolutionary change), and are deriving, from our particular emphasis, an ought (generally follow the Golden Mean vs. generally allow for the Invisible Hand of evolution).

    In practice, of course, both form and change come under consideration whenever we try to navigate a situation. Like a mixed economy, we leave capitalism to itself unless it's obviously running over a cliff (such as with the banking crisis)--and we do the same with evolution (pedophilia as a sexual variation along the human continuum is a big no, gay marriage is a tolerable yes that one can be presumptively neutral about--let the experiment take place, as with marijuana legalization, and see how it plays out).

    Or at least I think gay marriage should be a yes.

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  139. "Current marriage laws cause more net harm to people than would similar laws allowing homosexuals to “marry”."
    ...
    The second, I think Jeremy Taylor and a couple others said it's false because short-sighted, but I can't think of any obvious manner how it's short-sighted or why this so."

    I can't speak for Jeremy, but I would be sympathetic to this argument IF the concrete political situation we find ourselves in were different. Namely, if it were not the case that SSM advocates also seem to be positively disposed toward (and disposed to publicly advocate) a variety of other behaviors that more obviously run contrary to the common good, e.g. adultery, pornography, forms of sexual play that involve harming oneself or another.

    Thus it is difficult to muster a reasonable argument against all these other behaviors on account of the fact that the principle by which they were shown to be morally bad would tend to show the same of non-martial sex acts in general. Whether or not one perceives this to involve an increase in net harm, of course, will have to do with what one thinks the role of marriage is in society.



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  140. oops... that last comment was addressed to John West

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  141. "Epistemic humility" it replied without the least touch of irony or self-awareness; as it fashioned an idol of "evolution" in its own image, ascribed to it human motives, called it all "Progress", and stamped "Solidarity, by LOVE, INC." across the base.

    "All the better to scam you with, my Dear", it said.

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  142. Matt,

    I can't speak for Jeremy, but I would be sympathetic to this argument IF the concrete political situation we find ourselves in were different. Namely, if it were not the case that SSM advocates also seem to be positively disposed toward (and disposed to publicly advocate) a variety of other behaviors that more obviously run contrary to the common good, e.g. adultery, pornography, forms of sexual play that involve harming oneself or another.

    Just a couple weeks ago, a friend was telling me “married” homosexuals in Toronto tend to be more monogamous than heterosexual couples are nowadays. We chalked it up to the fact that homosexuals have only recently become able to “marry”, and many of them went through a great deal to be able to “marry”. A while later, I noticed people started posting in this thread saying the exact opposite about homosexuals and monogamy (albeit, speaking less locally). I plan on pressing said friend to cite his sources next we speak, but I wonder if any people here would be so kind as to cite their sources that “married” homosexuals tend to be less monogamous than married heterosexuals.

    In any case, Matt, I'm also skeptical. But I bring this up because if allowing institutionalized “marriage” leads to homosexuals becoming more monogamous, it could actually have a positive effect on changing the currently permiscuous gay culture. If that were the case, homosexual permiscuity would be one more reason we should pass laws allowing same-sex “marriage”.

    Whether or not one perceives this to involve an increase in net harm, of course, will have to do with what one thinks the role of marriage is in society.

    Indeed.

    That said though, globally, we're also in a situation where we ought to be keeping the human population down due to natural resource limits. On that front, in a purely utilitarian sense, the fact that homosexuals can't reproduce with each other may be positive.

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  143. "I wonder if any people here would be so kind as to cite their sources that “married” homosexuals tend to be less monogamous than married heterosexuals. "

    That's a good point. I don't know what the statistics are there, but it is important to distinguish between what SSM would generally result in socially as opposed to what a certain vocal set of folks with access to popular media outlets tend to value. If the tendency for same-sex couples is to settle into a lifestyle that looks more like "Modern Family" than like Dan Savage, that would be a net gain (whether or not one thinks homosexual acts are sinful or not, it is clear that there are more and less harmful ways to go about them, whether or not, again, those less harmful ways can genuinely be considered virtuous as opposed to pragmatically better).

    The state could allow for such agreements to be entered into between members of the same sex, without the state condoning or condemning the behavior. As with prostitution, the state needn't condone it by allowing it. The state could punish abusive pimps, thieving johns, and so on without condoning prostitution, and we might think that a net gain, too (it sounds like a net gain to me). Similarly, in same sex marriages, the state might tend, in a divorce, say, to favor faithful spouses over unfaithful ones in settlements (obviously I'm no legal expert, so I'm being very general here).

    I think the difficulty now is the question of whether or not, in certain cases, people are being coerced by the state to condone homosexuality (i.e. to participate in ceremonies, to perform services that they believe entails their endorsement or celebration of those acts), and to refrain from expressing any moral opinion on the matter. If that sort of thing continues, then that would count against the net gain.

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  144. " in a purely utilitarian sense, the fact that homosexuals can't reproduce with each other may be positive."

    This one I don't buy. We're talking about less than 3% of the population (according to the latest CDC survey), a small percentage that isn't likely to reproduce anyways. This is further vitiated by the practice of surrogacy.

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  145. Matt,

    ”" in a purely utilitarian sense, the fact that homosexuals can't reproduce with each other may be positive."

    This one I don't buy. We're talking about less than 3% of the population (according to the latest CDC survey), a small percentage that isn't likely to reproduce anyways. This is further vitiated by the practice of surrogacy.


    Actually, you're right. Since single homosexuals are at least as unlikely to reproduce as non-single homosexuals, my quoted statement is irrelevant.

    I think the difficulty now is the question of whether or not, in certain cases, people are being coerced by the state to condone homosexuality (i.e. to participate in ceremonies, to perform services that they believe entails their endorsement or celebration of those acts), and to refrain from expressing any moral opinion on the matter. If that sort of thing continues, then that would count against the net gain.

    That's true, and people now have a tendency to brand anyone that slights homosexuality a “bigot”, which has become a witch hunting word nowadays.

    The other part of the comparison is how homosexuals were treated when traditional views about sexuality and marriage were the cultural norm. I haven't researched the history of homosexuality, but my understanding is that homosexuals were treated quite harshly by the heterosexual majority in the West the last several hundred years. If the manner homosexuals were treated was as bad (or if they were forced into similar situations) as people against same-sex marriage are now, then unless we can somehow maintain a balance, there may not ultimately be much of a net loss from this difficulty. The current balance between a traditional society and a more culturally liberal society, with legal homosexual “marriage”, strikes me as unstable (heading towards becoming the latter of course).

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  146. @ Santi

    It is enough to regard what they do as MORALLY NEUTRAL; as grounded in biological variation (which is morally neutral).

    If we can get that far, private/public kicks in--as well as the "no harm" principle.

    Beyond that, what can you say is "immoral" about what nature itself has bequeathed you?


    But here you have proved my point. You could not get by without bringing in another principle, besides biology: the no-harm principle.

    And suppose I were to grant that the no-harm condition obtains. Suppose also that there's a biological, deterministic fact about sexual orientation. We find two same-sex couples, and find that in one, the couple is homosexual, while in the other, the couple is heterosexual. By hypothesis neither relationship is harmful. In one, the couple's desires are biologically determined; in the other, the couple is just experimenting (we can suppose). Would you claim that the heterosexual couple should not legally excluded from marrying? It would be interesting if you say yes. But if you say no, then biology has literally nothing to do with your argument, and integrity dictates that you should stop appealing to it.

    I say it would be interesting if you say yes. Even biting that bullet, however, would not deflect my argument, for it would be to assert that the biological facts are a necessary condition for permitting a couple to marry, not a sufficient condition - and your appeals to biology are always appeals to biology as a sufficient condition. The harm principle still does all of your work.

    As far as the harm principle is concerned (and the claim that same-sex "marriages" would be relevantly private), I would argue that these claims will rely on substantive conclusions about the permissibility of homosexual acts. However, as I've also argued, I don't need to claim that homosexual sex is immoral in order to respond to your questions about why it could never be possible for two lesbians to marry in the Church (or, for that matter, why same-sex marriage in civil society is unintelligible).

    Address the morality question, Greg.

    As I've just said, and have said before, I don't need to. Addressing the morality question requires more space and attention; I'm of the opinion, also, that it requires a sufficiently charitable and dispassionate interlocutor. I have given a different argument that lets me bypass the question of morality; I can defeat the claim that there is any right to same-sex marriage without arguing that same-sex relations are wrong, though I believe they are.

    ...

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  147. ...

    You have, interestingly, declined to engage my argument, besides complaining that it is patriarchal:

    If you structure the definition of marriage so that women are basically vulnerable to pregnancy at each coupling, whence feminism? If one is subject to ending up barefoot and pregnant for much of one's fertile years, then we all know what, exactly, this entails for women's equality and lives.

    I don't claim that men and women face an identical reproductive burden in marriage. That said, since I believe men and women are essentially different, this is not per se unjust.

    I have a couple responses. First, this appeal to the need for equality and the risks to which married women are open would prove far too much. For insofar as things like birth control and abortion spare women from the risks of begetting children, the possibility of infanticide (or, for that matter, the killing of children of any age) spares women from the risks of begetting children. But in these latter cases, equality does not warrant the discarding of any children of whatever age, then it doesn't in the former cases either.

    So we face a similar case as above. To justify use of birth control (same-sex marriage), you appeal to equality of women (biological determinism of sexual orientation) that we all would deny is sufficient in the case of infanticide (pedophilia). The natural response - for a sophist, at least - is to insist that equality (biology) was not the only consideration in the birth control (same-sex marriage) case; for unlike infanticide (pedophilia), birth contro (same-sex marriage) is not harmful.

    Needless to say, this is a terribly dishonest way to argue. I'm not going to play this game. All I ask is that you reflect on why you produce arguments of this quality - why you apply principles inconsistently and then, when called to task, append other principles in order to attempt to render your original set of judgments consistent. Just think about it. What leads to and motivates such diseased reasoning?

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  148. John,

    You write thoughts that have been on my mind as well, but I should probably cease from commenting as it's eating into time I should be using better. I thought you might find this interesting and/or usefull, though.

    and
    Some Nietzsche, for Santi,

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  149. Goodness, I feel I should make clear that by saying I could use my time better, I didn't meant to slight you, Mr. West. I mean that I've been avidly following this particular thread and now need to remove myself for the sake of impending deadlines and such.

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  150. Matt,

    I mean that I've been avidly following this particular thread and now need to remove myself for the sake of impending deadlines and such.

    No no, don't worry. It's fine. I have the same problem, so I understood what you meant.

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  151. John West,

    http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/DaileyGayAdopt.php

    The evidence, as well as common knowledge, is that homosexuals are considerably less monogamous than heterosexuals. Of course, lesbians are somewhat more monogamous than male homosexuals (who have an almost negligible level of long term fidelity), but even they are much more promiscuous than heterosexuals. There is evidence that male homosexuals have, on average, a hundred sexual partners or more in a lifetime.

    It seems far more likely that homosexuals marriage is part a general trends to pull down traditional sexual morality and marriage, rather than encouraging homosexuals to be monogamous.

    There is also some evidence that homosexuals don't really want to get married. There tends to be a lot of such so called marriages when they become legalised, presumably for as part of a political campaign, but then they drop right off. This does imply that the campaign for such marriages are more political than anything else.

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  152. John West:

    An article that complicates the question of what gay and lesbian marriages look like in relation to heterosexual marriages (citing data) is at The Atlantic link here:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/06/the-gay-guide-to-wedded-bliss/309317/?single_page=true

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  153. John West:

    You wrote: "I haven't researched the history of homosexuality, but my understanding is that homosexuals were treated quite harshly by the heterosexual majority in the West the last several hundred years."

    The best book on offer on the history of homosexuality (in terms of a broad survey) is a Harvard University Press published book titled, "Homosexuality and Civilization," by Louis Crompton.

    Amazon link here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Homosexuality-Civilization-Louis-Crompton/dp/0674022335/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429148203&sr=8-1&keywords=homosexuality+and+civilization+crompton

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  154. It must said that these sorts of statistics and studies need to be taken with a grain of salt, especially those with pro-homosexual findings. As the survey I quoted pointed out, researchers have a history of bad practice and bias in this area. It even mentions an APA analysis of the studies on gay parenting done by a Lesbian activist, Charlotte J. Patterson, who acknowledges the studies allegedly showing homosexual parenting has equal outcomes to straight parenting are uniformly shot through with errors but then basically saying we can ignore these glaring errors and treat them as valid anyway.

    As Peter Hitchens likes to point out, you cannot trust politically sensitive statistics unless you really delve into them yourself. Feminists are notorious for this kind of thing. I recently saw a shadow minister, Tanya Plibersek, on TV here in Australia repeating the statistic that domestic violence is the top cause of death of women between 18 to 44. This statistic has done the rounds in Australia, yet it is made up. Domestic violence isn't even in the top five causes of death.

    If one thinks about it, it is hardly surprising that homosexual marriages might be happier on average. Few homosexuals get married. Those who do are likely to be better off and more stable. Heterosexual marriage is under attack. Some of the old duties and ideals still sort of exist within heterosexual marriages - in most fidelity - yet our culture tends to conspire against many of them, like fidelity. Homosexual marriage tends to entail far fewer duties and restrictions.

    Interesting that the column Santi quoted doesn't actually say much. It bangs on a lot about egalitarianism - which in good left-liberal fashion it implies is obviously good (though at one points does admit this might not be the pace). In the beginning it even seems to admit that one way SSM might change marriage is making them less monogamous and lasting. And it always seems to use contemporary heterosexual couples as the benchmark for comparison.



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  155. Thank you for the articles.

    I still want to reread them before commenting, but the points on which the two articles' authors' agree are interesting. For instance, they agree that same sex “marriage” may very well alter the public understanding of what marriage is. They disagree on whether this change is for better or worse, but they agree about the change.

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  156. That should have read:

    For instance, they agree that[, if legalized,] same sex “marriage” may very well alter the public understanding of what marriage is.

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  157. What's been, socially speaking, the difference between a contract of "marriage" and any other kind of legally recognized contract in the Anglo-American tradition?

    Why have marriages even been institutionalized throughout the world in the first place?

    What effects of marital activity make the marriage of X and Y worthy of my notice or concern as a contractually disinterested party?

    When does a legal demand on the part of X and Y, that I as a juror or citizen become at least formally and potentially involved in the recognition their particular condition, hearing their disputes, or validating their petty interests or concerns, become an oppression on me?


    "Marriage" is for the sake of what? "The perpetuation of the race, per se?" No, it cannot be, since humans will be reproduced no matter what the formal institutions or lack thereof.

    Social peace? Closer ...

    A method of holding those party to the peculiar arrangement they make, publicly responsible and liable for the fall-out of their behaviors?

    Is it about warning them upfront regarding what is expected by neighbors who have a very limited interest in the substance of their lives but a big one in the potentially disruptive effects of their special arrangements, if they wish to live peaceably and respected? And perhaps equally about putting others outside the arrangement on notice regarding the boundaries established? Closer yet ...

    Marriage has clearly been a way of holding people publicly responsible for their own offspring, and validating their claims to sexual exclusivity.

    Is it any wonder then, that in a world of less-than-fully-rational libertines whose view of Nirvana is a brainless termite heap of squirming orgasmics, that the main thing that they can perceive in marriage are the social status side-effects, i.e., the imputation of equal social value to their lives through the granting of a contract envied for its social validating power; the incidental receipt of a stamp of social approval upon their objectively valueless ["ultimately", by their own standards] affairs.

    Marriage for them, is others telling them that they are "worth it" as associates and peers; even if what they are doing is not worth it or of interest to anyone else.

    It is a way of their gaining status in a social world where objective standards or essences for gauging the question of why anyone else should be troubled with the fall-out of their lives, are disallowed.

    Imagine that in a values nihilist universe - which progressives claim is the true description of the universe - Andrew Sullivan is murdered by his bondage partner.

    Why should anyone who accepts the premise that the universe is without meaning, and that there are neither objective standards of right and wrong, nor natures from which these standards might be deduced, care in the least?

    It lived. It died. It lives no more to irritate and annoy those unlike itself.

    The Rortian - a squawking locus of appetite without reasons for its own appetites - has no persuasive answer to this challenge; and no reasons to give.

    It only has its own emotions, impulsions, and a vocal power through which it tries to shape your response, to its own subjective liking. It tries to bleat rather than reason you into tolerance and acceptance.

    Not because it is right, or in your interest, or the only solution, but just because ...

    Better to hustle [the crowd] than to pester [reality], as they say.

    In the end, through their hustling, they merely pester people instead of the dumb universe.

    If they are even capable grasping - or granting - such a distinction as that between reasoning life and blind forces.

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  158. Greg:

    The no harm principle is a two-way street. That's why one can't just ditch the biology argument.

    It's a matter of integrity to give proper weight to competing harms: harm to society v. harm to individual gays and lesbians with a biologically inherited sexual orientation.

    Real Essentialism is running up against Real Harm.

    Deep six-ing biology renders gays and lesbians invisible. It gives them no counter-weight to arguments concerned solely with societal harm. If gays and lesbians are merely frivolous, perversely in love with evil, rebellious against parents, etc., then we can ignore their clamor for social integration. But if what's going on in them is the siren call of biology, it's much harder to dismiss their demands for integration.

    That's why biology can't, with integrity, be bracketed away from the issue of same-sex marriage.

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  159. Santi,

    It's a matter of integrity to give proper weight to competing harms: harm to society v. harm to individual gays and lesbians with a biologically inherited sexual orientation.

    Real Essentialism is running up against Real Harm.

    Deep six-ing biology renders gays and lesbians invisible. It gives them no counter-weight to arguments concerned solely with societal harm. If gays and lesbians are merely frivolous, perversely in love with evil, rebellious against parents, etc., then we can ignore their clamor for social integration. But if what's going on in them is the siren call of biology, it's much harder to dismiss their demands for integration.

    That's why biology can't, with integrity, be bracketed away from the issue of same-sex marriage.


    But you yourself said the matter was actually about individual freedom (April 14, 2015 at 7:10 AM) in response to my pointing out that your positions entail that biologically-determined traits are not morally neutral. You have conceded this by citing child-bearing burden's social implicatiosn and pederasty as not morally neutral for you even though they are biologically-determined.

    Are you again trying to make your argument:
    (1) biologically-determined traits/behaviors are morally neutral
    (2) homosexual preferences/acts are biologically-determined traits/behaviors
    (C1) therefore, homosexual acts are morally neutral

    But, you have also argued that:
    (3) some traits/behavior that I disagree with for feminism's sake and out of concern for children are not morally neutral even though they are biologically-determined

    And your argument also contains:
    (4) goods of individual freedom that are biologically-determined trump those goods of freedom grounded in consience (i.e. religion)
    (5) goods of higher priority should not be constrained in favor of lesser goods
    (C2) therefore, homosexual preferences/acts should not be constrained

    Note that premise three of your argument contradicts the rest of it, and the loss of biological determinism's neutral-making property the whole thing is undermined (as you admit above).

    I pointed this out to you and you said, "It can be both if the deciding factor is individual freedom..." But here, the work is done entirely by the no-harm princeple (as Greg noted, I see). And so you abandoned biological-determinism only to resurrect it today.

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  160. No body cares about your blather you troll.

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  161. Correction: No body cares about your blather, Santi, you troll.

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  162. Anonymous:

    What you take to be contrary positions are reconciled with one sentence: freedom is left to the gay or lesbian individual to respond to the siren call of biology--or not.

    Unlike with pedophilia, society, in my view, goes unharmed in the presence of this public policy--or it is harmed so incidentally that the objective suffering of the majority of gay and lesbian people is not a sufficient price to pay to override it.

    But for those who want to restrict the freedom of responding to the biological siren call, I say that pointing out the biology's influence on sexual orientation renders gay and lesbian longing visible (and not merely trivial or willfully demonic). It highlights the objective harm done to gay and lesbian people.

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  163. So, after all the rhetoric and silliness, Santi is just presenting a utilitarian argument. Well, we've heard it now. Maybe he can leave.

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  164. Greg:

    You wrote: "As far as the harm principle is concerned (and the claim that same-sex 'marriages' would be relevantly private), I would argue that these claims will rely on substantive conclusions about the permissibility of homosexual acts."

    But, Greg, can you even draw "substantive conclusions" surrounding "permissibility" if you IGNORE biological considerations?

    I say no.

    And can you BRACKET biology away from the "relevantly private" impact on gay and lesbian lives if you deny them marriage?

    Again, I say no.

    To permit something is different from treating it as morally ideal, and this entails weighing the issues of biology and harm to individual gays and lesbians in balance with the harm of gay marriage to society.

    So when you write this to me--"biology has literally nothing to do with your argument, and integrity dictates that you should stop appealing to it"--I say the opposite: biology is obviously front-and-center on the issue of same sex marriage (as Brown v. Board of Education clearly suggests in the key legal reasoning about this). Integrity dictates that the issue be raised, not buried.

    The biology of sexual orientation bears upon the direct harm done to gays and lesbians who choose not to be celibate. This is the harm principle, not applied to society, but to the individual who is denied equal access.

    This can't be bracketed.

    Biology renders visible those who have been treated, historically, as invisible. It renders human those who have been demonized and pathologized, their desires mocked and trivialized.

    The issue of biology has direct bearing on the issue of competing goods and harms, not in relation to society, but in relation to gay and lesbian individuals themselves.

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  165. Again, I know it is pointless to try and reason with a troll, but I might as make the point.

    Yes, the argument you are now presenting Santi looks formally valid.

    It might be slightly circular in that you seem to imply that the injustice done to homosexuals by prohibiting their sex acts is a reason why it is unjust to prohibit their sex acts, but for you that is a minor problem.

    The real problem with your argument is it rests on huge assumptions. Not only that homosexual orientation is biologically determined, but, more importantly, you do not support your points about the relative harm of prohibiting homosexual acts or marriage to not doing so. Your argument has little force against Greg's presentation of the natural law position until you far better support your claims and respond to that natural law position properly. Otherwise, all you have done is present the most bog standard outline of the left-liberal position. Hardly seems worth all the trolling.

    And, yes, it is true that if a proclivity is hard-wired in a person it is likely to cause more harm to them if it prohibited. But you, of course, push the point too far rhetorically and seem to forget this does not change the fact you still need to show your view of harm is more accurate than the natural law position. And, again, you manage to put a lot of rhetorical weight on the circular position that uses the injustice of prohibitions, moral and legal, on homosexual acts and relationships as support for arguing the prohibitions on homosexual acts and relationships are unjust.

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  166. @ Santi

    So when you write this to me--"biology has literally nothing to do with your argument, and integrity dictates that you should stop appealing to it"--I say the opposite: biology is obviously front-and-center on the issue of same sex marriage (as Brown v. Board of Education clearly suggests in the key legal reasoning about this). Integrity dictates that the issue be raised, not buried.

    There was a condition on that statement: "If you say no...". I presented a case. If you were to say no to the question I asked, then it would follow that biology has nothing to do with your argument, for it's actually considerations of harm (which you must consider distinctly from biology if your response to pedophilia is to be any good) that do all of the work in your argument. (Since you've taken issue with the consequent - and indeed have read me as attributing it to you - I suppose I am to assume that your endorse the antecedent.)

    Considerations of biology are clearly not even what was at stake in Brown v. Board either. Suppose that our old science is completely overturned; we find that, in fact, race has nothing to do with biology. Brown v. Board would not thereby be called into question; race would still be an arbitrary basis for discrimination, for race has nothing to do with the services withheld. You don't need biology for that conclusion, and anyone who tries to convince himself that it was the progression of biology that made the civil rights movement possible is in the grip of an ideology.

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  167. My concern is not that Santi is a troll. My concern is that he is serious, for that would suggest that reasonable discussion with a person like him is literally impossible.

    I really hope my reasoning is not as peppered with error as I perceive Santi's to be. That would have tragic implications for the possibility of human rationality. But as far as I can tell, it is not so peppered.

    I don't understand how Santi could be hung up so much on the point about biology, how he could have come to believe so confidently that it is really what is at issue. He has (in the pedophilia case) agreed the question of biology is not sufficient for permissibility. If I've read him right in my last post (i.e. that he takes issue with my consequent only because he endorses the antecedent), then he also has agreed that biology is not necessary for permissibility.

    So what could he be going on about? How could someone who has admitted these things continue to insist that what is at issue is biology?

    I can't believe that Santi is trolling, because if he were, then he would either be sympathetic to the position that he defends, or he wouldn't be. The latter is unimaginable; Santi could not oppose same-sex "marriage" and generate the drivel he does. But the former is also unimaginable, for if Santi really thinks same-sex "marriage" is a matter of justice, he would not be trolling and producing such transparently bad arguments. So I am forced to the conclusion that Santi is serious.

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  168. Since it's this late in the day...

    It's ironic that Santi appeals to Biology to justify his claims since it's precisely the emphasis on Biology which inclines me towards scepticism re Natural Law in the first place. Talk of Biology doing anything is implicitly teleological in character, and I'm not sure how the aforementioned gentlemen justifies that talk on his own terms - maybe we can be charitable and say he's 'highjacking' Natural Law premises. Even if he could produce a biological ends argument foR the permissibility of homosexual acts it will be flatly impossible for him to deny the procreative nature of heterosexual relationships.

    Nothing to say about the No Harm Principle save that on its own it sounds completely arbitrary. Why not harm others? They might not like it (then again one might like their suffering) but without any metaphysics that too is ultimately arbitrary. The one good thing about Rorty is that he drove the arbitrary crypto-solipsism of Nietzsche forward to its even more arbitrary incoherent conclusion.

    For my own part, and to respond in a fashion to Crude's resolution of the Speech Act wrangle I was having with Greg, I can't understand why people care so much about some of these 'Culture Wars' issues – Abortion yes as that involves an innocent third-party but other issues not so much. As far as I’m concerned people can drink, whore and ingest as many unusual substances as they like as long as they keep it and any underlying resentment it might generate out of the Philosophy Department.

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  169. 'Greg,

    Re trolling, your patience will be recorded in hagiographies.

    Is there really any point though - in the vanishingly small possibility he was persuaded it would probably be by a really bad argument or one which he completely misunderstood.

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  170. Santi,

    What you take to be contrary positions are reconciled with one sentence: freedom is left to the gay or lesbian individual to respond to the siren call of biology--or not.

    No. Your arguments above do contradict, and here is why: The ability of biological determinism to make a preference morally neutral does not make an act morally neutral.

    How does biological-determinism make a preference morally neutral? It is because the individual with the preference has no control over possessing that preference. This is contrasted with voluntary preferences including religious ones. I don't disagree with you here: if one can't control which appetites are possessed, then one cannot be blamed for having them. I think that most Catholics would agree since this is the Church's doctrine. It is action that is viewed as sin.

    So why doesn't biological-determinism make acts morally neutral as well as preferences? Because individuals control whether they will act or not in contrast to their lack of control over which determined preferences they possess.

    In other words, actions are not biologically-determined.

    As Greg has pointed out to you, "it's actually considerations of harm (which you must consider distinctly from biology if your response to pedophilia is to be any good) that do all of the work in your argument." Your appeals to biology are an attempt to reduce traditional marriage arguments to absurdity by a false analogy: that of the civil rights movement. There, the issue was biologically-determined traits instead of freely chosen actions. The analogy fails because African Americans could not choose whether or not to have dark skin pigmentation while homosexuals and pedophiles can choose whether to satisfy their preferences in act.

    From this, it can additionally be seen that, in terms of biological determinism, the pedophile analogy is a good one. Yes, there is a distinction between homosexual and pedophilic acts based on whether they infringe on others (at least in degree). But there is no distinction based on biology.

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  171. Nice to see Daniel shares my skepticism regarding the way Thomists read off of a biological form, like the penis, an ought from an is: "...it's precisely the emphasis on Biology which inclines me towards scepticism re Natural Law in the first place."

    He then writes: "Talk of Biology doing anything is implicitly teleological in character, and I'm not sure how the aforementioned gentlemen justifies that talk on his own terms - maybe we can be charitable and say he's 'highjacking' Natural Law premises."

    Of course, that's exactly what I have been doing: I've been arguing all along that IF one is going to read off an "ought" from an "is" that is in Nature, then why start and stop one's argument with FORM? Why not also inquire into the nature of CHANGE? That would bring one, of course, to evolution and the realization that evolution is amoral ("whatever works") and produces behavioral variations that hijack form (and then put fresh selective pressure on form).

    To ignore this fact about Nature is blinkering oneself, choosing an arbitrary starting and stopping point for reading morality off of Nature.

    In the long evolutionary view, form follows behavior (not the other way around). You get a behavioral change along a continuum, and if it persists, form adapts to it over time.

    So taken as a whole, Nature "tells us" that one size really doesn't fit all; that biological form in isolation is a poor guide to what an organism "ought" to be doing.

    It suggests that INDIVIDUAL morality cannot be proscribed from Nature, BUT IT CAN GUIDE PUBLIC POLICY. It can tell us that we should be cautious, if we want to live in a free society, about stomping down on variant behaviors because, if they're hardwired variations, we can collectively do a lot of real harm to individuals.

    So with regard to gay marriage, I'm arguing that if sexual orientation is hardwired, then it should evoke in heterosexuals EMPATHY for the plight of gay and lesbian people. Those of us who are heterosexual know that the siren call of biology and pair bonding are powerful forces that color our lives profoundly, and simply knowing that gays and lesbians feel the same way, it ought to make us cautious about restricting access to gay marriage FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT.

    Of course there will be people who choose celibacy, but given what we know about the nature of change in evolution, these siren calls placed in us are not always things we want to resist. Freedom suggests that--absent compelling social goods that are being substantially harmed--we leave it to the individual to decide.

    Knowing the nature of biological change brings us to empathy.

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  172. Santi,

    This was raised earlier, but why should evolution as an impersonal force trump reasoned morality? Evolution 'works' by introducing a great deal of variation and then destroying the vast majority of it. Those adaptations that do not correspond to a golden mean of comparative advantage are eliminated. If we have no independent way of knowing which adaptations are better, shouldn't we assume that they are 'meant' to be eliminated since only a very few adaptations are chosen to preserved?

    It seems that following evolutionary logic leads to a golden mean after all. Of course, this is silly as technology has transformed evolution into a process that human agency controls (at least partially).

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  173. Sorry. I've been trying to dig out the American study on homosexual monogamy mentioned in the Atlantic article, in my spare time, to see what it says. Still no luck.

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  174. " The analogy fails because African Americans could not choose whether or not to have dark skin pigmentation while homosexuals and pedophiles can choose whether to satisfy their preferences in act."

    One might wish to bear in mind that the classical reason racism was thought to be morally wrong, was that race in the sense of phenotype was held NOT to be a reliable indicator or predictor of character defect or behavioral disposition.

    In fact, the argument went that ethnicity (i.e., genetic makeup) and proneness to certain behaviors were positively unrelated: except insofar as the historically accidental pairing of some particular "nurture" with identifiable physical "nature", just happened to occur.

    However, in Santi's case, as with many similar progressive types, the rhetorical footing for the acceptance and inclusion claims has been switched from denying any nexus between phenotype or genotype and some form of interpersonal or transactional behavior, to one of "They can't help it and it is not their fault".

    Thus, wherein it was once argued, for example, that African descent did not imply a fundamental proneness to character defect, and that therefore prejudice was in moral principle wrong, the progressive now argues, or rhetorizes, that because X cannot help himself Y is therefore obligated to tolerate an association, or even affirm and underwrite the behavior.

    This would be tantamount to switching footing from first arguing that there is nothing in Gypsy (Roma) nature which makes them any different when it comes to inherent moral sensibilities from anyone else, to asserting instead that Roma are indeed natural born thieves of cheats, but, since they are born that way and cannot help it, and because they do comparatively little harm to the society overall, that the non-Roma populace must consent to be annoyed or put-upon at the best, and victimized and cheated at worst: "And besides, they are so musical and colorful"

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  175. "So what could he be going on about? How could someone who has admitted these things continue to insist that what is at issue is biology?"


    Isn't it by now obvious to everyone that what he is trying to do is to emulate the force of the Natural Law argument while refashioning it to suit the cases he personally wishes to normalize?

    He is desperately trying to avoid the logical consequences of being pinned to a pure Rortianism (which he has already endorsed anyway) which would in its insistence on arbitrariness and historical contingency redound negatively on his own pleas for solidarity and self-sacrificial inclusion on behalf of what is on the nominalists' own terms truly and objectively "other".

    The Rortian claim to your forbearance and self-sacrificial solidarity in the face of meaninglessness and pure contingency is free-floating, and only leverages against people who are fearful of being placed in social straits if they shrug and say back to the Rortian: "So what?", "How is this in my interest?" or "Why should I bother?"


    So Santi, Rortian that he is, recognizes the difficult position his master has put him in vis-a-vis opponents who insist on reasons before they accommodate themselves into extinction. Rorty is confident he can gain sociopolitical control over all life chances and shame and marginalize the uncooperative who do not "feel" as he feels.

    Santi is obviously not so sure of this. And he therefore seeks to anchor his claims structure in something which he hopes the Aristotelian or Natural law theorist can relate to, even if the Santian's deductions are fallacious and riddled with contradictions.

    Less that rhetorical strategy, and apart from whining about shared pain, and cruelty, to someone who gazes upon him with indifference as some kind of neurotic, he's got nothing to say back to the same guy who retorts: "So effen what? Your neurotic fears and emotional neediness are your problem and not mine. Until, that is, you make it unavoidably so. And at that point we shall pursue my solutions to the problem of you which wish to spread, and not yours"

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  176. Daniel,

    I am certainly no puritan, but I don't like social liberalism, one, because it tends to be based on a worldly, materialistic hedonism and, two, it is opposed to much I hold dear as a Platonist and cultural conservative, from beauty to virtue to stable family and community. The social and cultural issues are at the centre of the modernist assault on traditional religion and traditional society.

    I will say I think a lot of social conservatism is narrow. There is sometimes a tendency to focus on a few issues, like and them in a simplistic way. So, there is lots of commentary on so called SSM but issues like place or the relationship to the land or thriving local communities are ignored, let alone spirituality or art. I consider myself more cultural conservative more than just a social conservative.

    Greg,

    I suppose it depends on the definition of a troll. I certainly think Santi is sincere in his beliefs and generally sincere in thinking he is defending them well. But he is someone who doesn't care about arguing properly. He will change his basic arguments and not notice, commit gross fallacies, constantly engage emotional waffle; and, of course, Santi posts prolifically. To me that qualifies him as a troll.

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  177. It is completely off topic, and might be a stupid question, but I was wondering if anyone could answer it for me.

    If one is professional philosopher, what sort of knowledge is requisite for that. I don't mean the degrees but the actual knowledge learned in them. Would I be right in thinking it is a grounding in basic or intermediate logic, a survey of many contemporary and historical big issues in philosophy, and then a deeper knowledge of a few chosen areas?

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  178. Anon:

    You asked: "[W]hy should evolution as an impersonal force trump reasoned morality?"

    It needn't. No "is" needs to dictate your personal bucket list of "oughts." Given that evolution plays every gambit--cooperative to selfish, etc.--what generalization could you make from it in any case?

    As a contingent and variant creature, you may surmise that your own inner logic and private sirens are calling you away from any Golden Mean or evolutionary strategy adhered to by the herd.

    But that's you on the private level.

    On the social level, I've argued that, in the weighing of competing goods, we SHOULD use biology and evolution to inform public policy.

    How so? By letting evolution function as a source of wisdom. It reminds us that individual siren calls exist along a continuum, and they frequently have a significant biological basis. This ought to bring us to greater empathy in our decision making.

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  179. Some feel called to write novels, others to be scientists, others to take up cliff diving.

    The wisdom we take from evolution is the same that a good economist takes from the Invisible Hand: absent really good reasons, let things be. Don't be hubristic; don't interfere too much with markets or the individual's inherited characteristics. Make room for people's sirens; for expressions of novelty and experiment.

    Our temperaments, our sexual preferences, our energy levels, etc. all have important biological components; they all occur along inherited continuums. Twin studies attest to this. Let them be.

    If we live in a society that values the individual and freedom, then we'll have a bias against hastily putting the kibosh on biologically inherited behavioral variation; we'll be reluctant to force individuals into conformity absent very, very good reasons to do so.

    This reluctance is grounded in our knowledge of how evolution works (by variant gambits). It's not because we're helping evolution along or taking moral cues from evolution.

    It's just deriving wisdom from the way things are and the way they change, Grasshopper.

    If we don't value individuals qua individuals or freedom qua freedom, then we won't care what biology and evolution tell us about variation. The facts on the ground won't matter. We'll run roughshod over individuals on our way to achieving our version of an ideal society.

    But once we say we value individuals and freedom, our quest for the ideal society relaxes a bit. We see the individual's autonomy as a competing good with our utopian schemes, and we want to be informed by biology in making decisions that impact people with variant behaviors.

    Biology and evolution help us to see the individual; to wisely and compassionately recall that, just as we don't want our own siren calls of conscience, reason, or passion blocked by social coercion, so we shouldn't want to block these calls in others absent very compelling social reasons for doing so.

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  180. Call me cynical but do you think anything resembling a good society in the West is actually possible nowadays? This is something of which I have grave doubts. I try to avoid having anything to do with politics, to the point of never touching a newspaper or leaving the room if the news is on, as it's largely the arena of vulgar crowd appetites, ungrounded moral assertions and sheer blind will-to-pure-indignation. Most people within my age bracket (twenties) are obsessed with it whilst at the same time knowing next to nothing about actual policies.

    I do depart from traditional forms of morality in that I think the former places to much emphasis on society and social groups e.g. the family, and that this leads in some cases to a kind of complacency. Ethics in the end must be concerned with inter-personal meaning and thus the ways in which we relate to one another. For instance with the marriage issue far too much emphasis is placed on the role marriage as a social institution has played within a given culture historically as opposed to what it means to love another which is surely the fundamental question.

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  181. Daniel,

    Call me cynical but do you think anything resembling a good society in the West is actually possible nowadays?

    In any conservative sense, "No." I don't. For instance, where I currently live, same sex marriage is already legal. Of the four churches here, one is ultimately run by a "married" homosexual pastor, and another is the Anglican church. I believe brothel-based prostitution was recently legalized. No one's taken advantage of it yet, but I think this was actually probably a good idea.

    Cannabis is already de facto decriminalized and the statistics show it has been for literally decades. In particular, laws against use -- laws for deterrence -- go unenforced, by police or judge. On this point, I broadly agree with Peter Hitchens that part of the issue lay in the organization of our police forces (which is organized along an ambulance and firetruck chasing model), but we lack the historical reasons to convert to the only other model I know (a model broadly based on Peel's old system). In any case, our police system isn't organized in a way so as to implement effective deterrence policies, which they don't seem to want to do anyway.

    Even in the Catholic church here, you would be hard pressed to find a lay person whose not a raging cultural liberal.

    It's not going to earn me many friends, but I share your cynicism. Here at least, I can't think of a single culture war issue where cultural conservatives haven't already lost, badly.

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  182. I typed too quickly:

    "[...] which no one seems to want to [implement or enforce] anyway."

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  183. Daniel,

    [A] good society in the West is actually possible nowadays?

    Having said all that, there might be a chance in parts of the US still. Maybe. Aren't most Latin Americans also very culturally conservative?

    I'm going to have to go with Peter Hitchens's own analysis of Britain, despite his tireless efforts, and say not in the Britain (despite that it's resisted no-fault divorce so far). And, well, you know how the continent is.

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  184. I see now that I shouldn't have followed Santi's change of topic by addressing his evolution as a teacher claim. He just used the chance to restate his collection of unsupported and contradictory claims without actually addressing criticism.

    Don't feed the trolls.

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  185. Daniel and John West:

    I'm not sure what alternative reality you're living in, but we have an extremely good global society right now (better, in any case, than humans have ever known). There are lots of things that society can crash into over the next century (computer superintelligence might render humanity extinct, for instance), but by virtually all measures, humans are better off now than they've ever been (morally, in terms of civil liberty, and economically). Humans torture and commit crimes less than in the past, the death penalty has been eliminated in most civilized countries, death from war has come down annually to something like in the tens of thousands (not the millions), etc.

    I'm curious to know your opinion of the below YouTube of Steven Pinker summarizing the recent data. And let's not forget China. Fifty years ago, China was a mess. Today, its people enjoy a standard of living comparable to Italy in 1964.

    And if, by a good society, you mean one that adheres to a particular religious vision, why not leave off your existence in the city, say, and start a Catholic commune in the countryside? Why not lead by example and experiment directly?

    Evolution is about experiment (as is gay marriage). Make of your existence an experiment. The proof is in the pudding.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjT4HlNJNgI

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  186. Santi,

    I was clear in what sense "good society" was meant in that post. I literally opened my comment by stipulating it. You have no reason to be confused.

    Probably the main difference in our views of the future is that I lack your faith in endless Progress (as implied by your supercomputer comment), because I lack your faith in endless resources or innovation. That doesn't mean there's going to be some “apocalypse”. That's equally nonsensical. It does mean there are hard limits on the current social model, which rests entirely on the back of huge amounts of natural resources, and that at some point future generations are going to have to gradually get used to having less. To use some ecology lingo, I think we're in overshoot still blindly drawing down on our resources.

    But I put to you that the reason for our current prosperity has nothing to do with liberal views. It has to do with hard geographical and economical facts, and we would have about the same under most social models.

    Similarly, our current peace among first world nations has nothing to do with liberal polices. It has nothing to do with equality, or fairness, or love. It has to do with major powers having missiles that can incinerate cities in seconds pointed at each other.

    commit crimes less than in the past

    At least in Canada and Britain, crime has been rising since around the 60s. I recommend Peter Hitchens's Abolition of Liberty for a summary of what I was talking about.

    And if, by a good society, you mean one that adheres to a particular religious vision

    Wrong two commenters.
    ------------

    Anyway, since this particular conversational sidepath is off-topic, I'll give you at most one more reply and then won't be pursuing it.

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  187. Predictably, Santi didn't stop to think you need a definition of goodness before you can claim modern society is better off. Indeed, he makes extraordinary claims about moral progress without even defining it. It is unlikely traditional conservatives are going to agree with him about what constitutes human progress. And I say this as a Platonic universalist, not simply as a Christian. If we take Russell Kirk's Permanent Things, can we really say that modern society better lives up to them?

    Also, Pinker's work is quite as authoritative as sometimes suggested. It has been seriously questioned in some areas. For example, his caricature of the Middle Ages could have come from a Monty Python sketch and his information on hunter-gather societies is almost all about those within the last ten thousand years, and generally less so. There is evidence hunter-gather societies were quite peaceful further back in time.

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  188. I will admit that, at least in the West, society hasn't fallen as far as many traditional conservatives expected it to in the last forty years or so. Why that is, is a good question. I do suspect a lot of it is a fluke and a lot of it is living on past capital, so the relative tranquillity is far more unstable than is realised. I doubt the ideology of the likes of Santi - with its atomistic, materialist hedonism - will have salutary effects as its spreads further. I think a good argument can be made that, even if we accept many of the left-liberal values about what makes a good society and ours a good one, the conservative stress on community, self-control, virtue, continuity, and the like are important in upholding in what makes our society a relatively good one. I doubt left-liberalism, given entirely free reign will maintain the relative equilibrium of the recent West for long.

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  189. Jeremy,

    It is unlikely traditional conservatives are going to agree with him about what constitutes human progress

    Indeed not. I probably should have defined "Progress" as I was using it more clearly myself, but I think my definition was strongly implied in my post.

    Oh, and as for your earlier question. My understanding from reading the syllabi and taking philosophy courses is that you are correct, but obviously there are people here better qualified to answer.

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  190. - that should have been Pinker's work is not quite as authoritative, obviously.

    Also, when I wrote about the fluke of relatively stable contemporary West, I was especially referring to qualities like accountability. One of the main reasons, I would say, why the West is relatively liveable today is because there is a rarely seen before level of accountability of officials. If you do things wrong as an official or even private person, it will very often be found out. Our system of government has a role to play, but even more important is the media and the alertness of public opinion and discourse. This wasn't planned, for the most part, though. It didn't just come about because of the development of democracy, and who knows how long it will last.

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  191. If you want to know where the world is likely going (long-term and absent a global plague), assume a global population fifty years from now that lives mostly in clean and efficient cities, tests a standard deviation higher on IQ tests than what's average today, and enjoys the fruits of a global economy that is twice or more as large as it is today.

    And, of course, it will be a world with gay marriage--because the circle of empathy will, without the least difficulty, absorb gays and lesbians into the circle of empathy.

    The future is New York. The future is Los Angeles. Just cleaner and more efficient.

    And the future is The Office and Veep. Have you noticed how good recent television has become? Like literature, it teaches empathy and abstract reasoning; the plots are dense with complexity and emotion; no animals are ever harmed; viewers walk in the shoes of diverse others (including gays and lesbians), sympathetic to their foibles, etc.

    So the combination of empathy and mind wells--as opposed to oil wells--are advancing. ("Mind wells" are what I'd call the hubs of learning and innovation all over the world--the greatest sources of human wealth globally--Silicon Valley, MIT, Stanford, etc.)

    Thus, where, in the past, morality was secured by submission to authority and the executioner (think of Joseph de Maistre's grotesque nineteenth century expressions of enthusiasm for the executioner and torturer in maintaining an orderly society), it is now secured by general prosperity, women's greater influence in public affairs, and the growth of abstraction--which leads to greater levels of generosity and empathy in the world.

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  192. I'm being called the cynical materialist here, but I'd note that it is others who are explicitly positing that ideas are not an especially important factor in why the world is peaceful in 2015.

    By contrast, I'd say it's a mix of material and idea factors. In terms of idea factors, an obvious one is empathy. Empathy is increasing in the world. It's a form of abstract reasoning--imagining oneself in the shoes of another. It's supported by habits of abstraction generally.

    Abstraction is spreading in the population as greater numbers of people achieve higher levels of education, enter intellectually demanding professions, live in urban environments, are exposed to the Internet, etc. It's why IQ test scores have been climbing over the last century (the Flynn effect).

    Increasing empathy is correlated with the Flynn effect.

    Other ideas (related to empathy) are: equality of blacks; equality of gays; equality of women; concern for those beyond one's national boundaries; the idea that war is bad, not glorious; the idea that torture and the death penalty are bad; concern for animals (animal rights); and environmental concern.

    All of these are highly abstract notions that have gained traction as IQ test scores have risen and habits of abstract reasoning have spread.

    When these sorts of ideas enter into the emotional lives of people, and their standard of living rises (as another idea, capitalism, has made possible), there's a certain cycle of generosity that spreads. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion and irreligion, democracy, the autonomy of the individual, etc. are other ideas that have gained substantial traction globally.

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  193. I will certainly agree that Santi's posts are a good indication of where the world is heading......


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  194. So the combination of empathy and mind wells--as opposed to oil wells--are advancing. ("Mind wells" are what I'd call the hubs of learning and innovation all over the world--the greatest sources of human wealth globally--Silicon Valley, MIT, Stanford, etc.)

    Among other things, this is a failure of systemic thinking. Most of the technology developed in places like Silicon Valley requires large amounts of energy and materials to build.

    Nothing else here even approaches response. The threads all yours, Mr. Tafarella.

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  195. The problem (if you're a Thomist) is accounting for the fact that, as the world has gotten more secular, narcissistic, better educated, less metaphysical, and more sentimental (morality "grounded" in imaginative empathy and story-telling), things have actually gotten strikingly better (morally and economically).

    Women are better off, racism is down, war is down, global poverty is down, gays and lesbian know dignity, museums and artistic expression are flourishing, average IQ test scores have risen two standard deviations in a century--30 points, etc.

    What's not to like here? Why the sour pusses?

    De Maistre's theory that what civilization needs to maintain itself is stern and traditional sexual regulation; more of the rack and the screw; more of the executioner; more intellectual submission to religious authority, etc.--has worked out differently in practice.

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  196. @ John West

    Nothing else here even approaches response. The threads all yours, Mr. Tafarella.

    Maybe it's also worth mentioning that there's a good chance the world won't be brimming with contented urban liberals 50 years down the road. I've already mentioned to Santi that there will be a resurgence of traditionalist, illiberal communities, since those are the communities that are capable of sustaining their populations. Though he never responded...

    @ Santi

    The problem (if you're a Thomist) is accounting for the fact that, as the world has gotten more secular, narcissistic, better educated, less metaphysical, and more sentimental (morality "grounded" in imaginative empathy and story-telling), things have actually gotten strikingly better (morally and economically).

    Well, it depends how you look at the world today. Suppose you assume the Thomist is wrong. Then things look pretty good. But suppose you do not beg the question; that is, suppose that the Thomist is right about, say, abortion. Then the society you admire (in the US, at least) is also responsible for murdering nearly 60 million children since Roe v. Wade.

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  197. Surely he can't really believe all the nonsense he spouts. Surely?

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