Sunday, January 11, 2015

Post-intentional depression


A reader asks me to comment on novelist Scott Bakker’s recent Scientia Salon article “Back to Square One: toward a post-intentional future.”  “Intentional” is a reference to intentionality, the philosopher’s technical term for the meaningfulness or “aboutness” of our thoughts -- the way they are “directed toward,” “point to,” or are about something.  A “post-intentional” future is one in which we’ve given up trying to explain intentionality in scientific terms and instead abandon it altogether in favor of radically re-describing human nature exclusively in terms drawn from neuroscience, physics, chemistry, and the like.  In short, it is a future in which we embrace the eliminative materialist position associated with philosophers like Alex Rosenberg and Paul and Patricia Churchland.
 
Bakker acknowledges that since giving up on intentionality entails giving up the mind, indeed the self, the consequences of eliminativism seem dire:

You could say the scientific overthrow of our traditional theoretical understanding of ourselves amounts to a kind of doomsday, the extinction of the humanity we have historically taken ourselves to be.  Billions of “selves,” if not people, would die -- at least for the purposes of theoretical knowledge!

Here, as Bakker notes, he is echoing Jerry Fodor, who in Psychosemantics wrote:

[I]f commonsense intentional psychology really were to collapse, that would be, beyond comparison, the greatest intellectual catastrophe in the history of our species; if we’re that wrong about the mind, then that’s the wrongest we’ve ever been about anything.  The collapse of the supernatural, for example, didn’t compare; theism never came close to being as intimately involved in our thought and our practice -- especially our practice -- as belief/desire explanation is…  We’ll be in deep, deep trouble if we have to give it up.

I’m dubious, in fact, that we can give it up; that our intellects are so constituted that doing without it (I mean really doing without it; not just philosophical loose talk) is a biologically viable option.  But be of good cheer; everything is going to be all right. (p. xii)

Fodor’s certainly correct, both about the consequences of eliminativism, and about everything’s nevertheless being all right.  Or at least, everything’s going to be all right for commonsense intentional psychology; for scientism and materialism, not so much.  For we cannot possibly be wrong about commonsense intentional psychology.  We know that eliminativism must be false.  We needn’t worry about suffering post-intentional depression because there’s no such thing as our ever being post-intentional.  But scientism and materialism really do entail eliminativism or post-intentionalism.  Hence they must be false too. 

This is, of course, ground I’ve covered in great detail in several places.  There is, for example, the very thorough critique I’ve given of Rosenberg’s book The Atheist’s Guide to Reality and some of his other writings in a series of posts.  I there show that none of the arguments for eliminativism is any good, and that eliminativism cannot solve the incoherence problem -- the problem of finding a way to deny the existence of intentionality without implicitly presupposing the existence of intentionality.

Bakker tells us that, though he once found the objections to eliminativism compelling, he now takes the post-intentional “worst case scenario” to be a “live possibility” worthy of exploration.  It seems to me, though, that he doesn’t really say anything new by way of making eliminativism plausible, at least not in the present article.  Here I want to comment on three issues raised in his essay.  The first is the reason he gives for thinking that the incoherence problem facing eliminativism isn’t serious.  The second is the question of why, as Bakker puts it, we are “so convinced that we are the sole exception, the one domain that can be theoretically cognized absent the prostheses of science.”  The third is the question of why more people haven’t considered “what… a post-intentional future [would] look like,” a fact that “amazes” Bakker.

Still incoherent after all these years

Let’s take these in order.  In footnote 3 of his article, Bakker writes:

Using intentional concepts does not entail commitment to intentionalism, any more than using capital entails a commitment to capitalism.  Tu quoque arguments simply beg the question, assume the truth of the very intentional assumptions under question to argue the incoherence of questioning them.  If you define your explanation into the phenomena we’re attempting to explain, then alternative explanations will appear to beg your explanation to the extent the phenomena play some functional role in the process of explanation more generally.  Despite the obvious circularity of this tactic, it remains the weapon of choice for great number of intentional philosophers.

End quote.  There are a couple of urban legends about the incoherence objection that eliminativists like to peddle, and Bakker essentially repeats them here.  The first urban legend is the claim that to raise the incoherence objection is to accuse the eliminativist of an obvious self-contradiction, like saying “I believe that there are no beliefs.”  The eliminativist then responds that the objection is as puerile as accusing a heliocentrist of self-contradiction when he says “The sun rose today at 6:59 AM.”  Obviously the heliocentrist is just speaking loosely.  He isn’t really saying that the sun moves relative to the earth.  Similarly, when an eliminativist says at lunchtime “I believe I’ll have a ham sandwich,” he isn’t really committing himself to the existence of beliefs or the like. 

But the eliminativist is attacking a straw man.  Proponents of the incoherence objection are well aware that eliminativists can easily avoid saying obviously self-contradictory things like “I believe that there are no beliefs,” and can also go a long way in avoiding certain specific intentional terms like “believe,” “think,” etc.  That is simply not what is at issue.  What is at issue is whether an across-the-board eliminativism is coherent, whether the eliminativist can in principle avoid all intentional notions.  The proponent of the incoherence objection says that this is not possible, and that analogies with heliocentrism and the like therefore fail.

After all, the heliocentrist can easily state his position without making any explicit or implicit reference to the sun moving relative to the earth.  If he needs to, he can say what he wants to say with sentences like “The sun rose today at 6:59 AM” in a more cumbersome way that makes no reference to the sun rising.  Similarly (and to take Bakker’s own example) an anti-capitalist can easily describe a society in which capital does not exist (e.g. a hunter-gatherer society).  But it is, to say the least, by no means clear how the eliminativist can state his position in a way that does not entail that at least some intentional notions track reality.  For the eliminativist claims that commonsense intentional psychology is false and illusory; he claims that eliminativism is evidentially supported by or even entailed by science; he proposes alternative theories and models of human nature; and so forth.  Even if the eliminativist can drop reference to “beliefs” and “thoughts,” he still typically makes use of “truth,” “falsehood,” “theory,” “model,” “implication,” “entailment,” “cognitive,” “assertion,” “evidence,” “observation,” etc.  Every one of these notions is also intentional.  Every one of them therefore has to be abandoned by a consistent eliminativist.  (As Hilary Putnam pointed out decades ago, a consistent eliminativist has to give up “folk logic” as well as “folk psychology.”)

To compare the eliminativist to the heliocentrist who talks about the sunrise or the anti-capitalist who uses capital is, if left at that, mere hand waving.  For whether these analogies are good ones is precisely what is at issue.  If Bakker or any other eliminativist wants to give a serious reply to the incoherence objection, what he needs to do is to put his money where his mouth is and show us exactly how the eliminativist can do what the heliocentist or anti-capitalist can do.  He needs to show us exactly how the eliminativist position can be stated in a way that makes no appeal to “truth,” “falsehood,” “theory,” “entailment,” “observation,” or any other intentional notion.  The trouble is that no eliminativist has ever done so.  Even eliminativists usually don’t claim that anyone has done it.  They just issue promissory notes to the effect that someday it will be done.  But since whether it can be done is precisely what is at issue, this response just begs the question.  (Readers who haven’t yet done so are encouraged to read Rosenberg’s paper “Eliminativism without Tears” and my three-part reply to it, here, here, and here.  Rosenberg’s essay is the most serious and thorough attempt I know of to grapple with the incoherence problem.  As I show, it fails dismally.)

The second urban legend Bakker perpetuates is the claim that the incoherence objection itself somehow begs the question.  The way the Churchlands illustrate this purported foible of the incoherence objection is to compare the objector to someone who claims that modern biologists contradict themselves by denying the existence of élan vital.  The Churchlands imagine such a person saying something like: “If élan vital didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be alive and thus wouldn’t be around to deny its existence!  So you cannot coherently deny it.”  As the Churchlands rightly note, this objection begs the question, since whether élan vital is required for life is precisely what is at issue.  And the incoherence objection raised against the eliminativist is, the Churchlands claim, similarly question-begging.

But the parallel is completely bogus.  The reason the imagined élan vital objection fails is that the concept of being alive and the concept of élan vital are logically independent.  We can coherently describe something being alive without bringing élan vital into our description.  Hence it would require argumentation to show that élan vital is necessary for life; this cannot simply be assumed.  Things are very different in the case of the dispute about eliminativism.  Here, what is at issue is precisely whether the relevant concepts are logically independent.  In particular, what is at issue is whether the eliminativist can coherently speak of “truth,” “falsehood,” “evidence,” “observation,” “entailment,” etc. while at the same time denying that there is such a thing as intentionality.  If he can give us a way of doing so, then he will have shown that the analogy with the élan vital example is a good one.  But if the eliminativist does not do so, then he is the one begging the question.  But, as I have just noted, eliminativists in fact have not done so.  So, once again it is really the eliminativist, and not his critic, who is engaged in circular reasoning. 

Another way to see how hollow Bakker’s charge of circular reasoning is is to consider some parallel cases.  Take the verificationist claim that a statement is meaningful only if it is verifiable.  Notoriously, this principle seems to undermine itself, since no one has been able to explain how it can be verified.  Suppose a verificationist accused his critics of begging the question in raising this objection.  What could possibly be the basis for such an accusation?  If the verificationist had given us some account of how his own principle could be verified, and the critic simply ignored this account but still accused the principle of verifiability of being self-undermining, then the verificationist would have a basis for claiming that the objection begs the question.  But since the verificationist has not given us such an account, any claim that his critics beg the question against him would be groundless, and their objection stands.

Similarly, if eliminativists had given us some account of how they can coherently state their position without making use of any intentional notions whatsoever, and if their critics had nevertheless simply ignored this account and raised the incoherence objection anyway, then the charge that the critics beg the question would have some foundation.  But this is not in fact what has happened.  Eliminativists have not given an account of how they can state their position without using any intentional notions at all; typically they just wave away the problem by saying that it will be solved when neuroscience has made further advances.  But in the absence of such an account, the charge that those who raise the incoherence objection beg the question is groundless. (Again, Rosenberg has come closest to trying to answer the objection head on.  I have not ignored this attempt but rather answered it in detail, as the posts linked to above show.) 

Another parallel: “Analytical” or “logical” behaviorism holds that talk about mental states can be translated into talk about behavior or dispositions to behavior.  To say that “Bob believes that it is raining” is shorthand for saying something like “Bob will say that it is raining if he is asked, is disposed to go to the closet and grab an umbrella before leaving the house, etc.”  One well-known problem with this view is that no one has been able to show how talk about mental states can be entirely replaced by talk about behavior and dispositions to behavior.  In the example just given, it will be true that “Bob will say that it is raining if he is asked, is disposed to go to the closet and grab an umbrella before leaving the house, etc.” only if it is also true that Bob intends to tell us what he really thinks, desires to stay dry, etc.  That is to say, if we analyze the one mental state (the belief that it is raining) in terms of behavior, the behavior itself has to be analyzed in terms of further mental states (such as the intention to say what one is really thinking and the desire to stay dry), and thus the problem is only pushed back a stage.  And as it turns out, if we give a behavioral analysis of the intention and desire in question, the problem just recurs again.  So it looks like no successful thoroughgoing behaviorist analysis can be carried out.

Now suppose the analytical behaviorist responds: “But this objection just begs the question, since we analytical behaviorists say that such an analysis can be given!”  Obviously this would be a silly objection.  The critic of analytical behaviorism has given a reason to think the analysis cannot be carried out, while the analytical behaviorist has failed to show that it can be carried out.  So, until the analytical behaviorist succeeds in carrying out such an analysis, his charge that his critic begs the question will be groundless.

Similarly, critics of eliminativism have given reasons for concluding that the eliminativist needs to make use of notions which presuppose intentionality, so that no coherent statement of the eliminativist position can be carried out.  To rebut this charge, it will not do for the eliminativist merely to accuse his critic of begging the question.  The eliminativist has to provide the analysis his critic claims cannot be provided.  Merely insisting, dogmatically, that it can be provided and someday will be provided is not good enough to rebut the incoherence charge.  The eliminativist has actually to show us how to do it.  Until he does, he is in the same boat as the verificationist and the analytical behaviorist.  (Not a good boat to be in, since verificationism and analytical behaviorism are about as dead as philosophical theories get.)

The “lump under the rug” fallacy

Bakker wonders why we are “so convinced that we are the sole exception, the one domain that can be theoretically cognized absent the prostheses of science.”  After all, other aspects of the natural world have been radically re-conceived by science.  So why do we tend to suppose that human nature is not subject to such radical re-conception -- for instance, to the kind of re-conception proposed by eliminativism?  Bakker’s answer is that we take ourselves to have a privileged epistemic access to ourselves that we don’t have to the rest of the world.  He then suggests that we should not regard this epistemic access as privileged, but merely different. 

Now, elsewhere I have noted the fallaciousness of arguments to the effect that neuroscience has shown that our self-conception is radically mistaken.  For instance, in one of the posts on Rosenberg alluded to above, I respond to claims to the effect that “blindsight” phenomena and Libet’s free will experiments cast doubt on the reliability of introspection.  Here I want to focus on the presupposition of Bakker’s question, and on another kind of fallacious reasoning I’ve called attention to many times over the years.  The presupposition is that science really has falsified our commonsense understanding of the rest of the world, and the fallacy behind this presupposition is what I call the “lump under the rug” fallacy.

Suppose the wood floors of your house are filthy and that the dirt is pretty evenly spread throughout the house.  Suppose also that there is a rug in one of the hallways.  You thoroughly sweep out one of the bedrooms and form a nice little pile of dirt at the doorway.  It occurs to you that you could effectively “get rid” of this pile by sweeping it under the nearby rug in the hallway, so you do so.  The lump under the rug thereby formed is barely noticeable, so you are pleased.  You proceed to sweep the rest of the bedrooms, the bathroom, the kitchen, etc., and in each case you sweep the resulting piles under the same rug.  When you’re done, however, the lump under the rug has become quite large and something of an eyesore.  Someone asks you how you are going to get rid of it.  “Easy!” you answer.  “The same way I got rid of the dirt everywhere else!  After all, the ‘sweep it under the rug’ method has worked everywhere else in the house.  How could this little rug in the hallway be the one place where it wouldn’t work?  What are the odds of that?”

This answer, of course, is completely absurd.  Naturally, the same method will not work in this case, and it is precisely because it worked everywhere else that it cannot work in this case.  You can get rid of dirt outside the rug by sweeping it under the rug.  You cannot get of the dirt under the rug by sweeping it under the rug.  You will only make a fool of yourself if you try, especially if you confidently insist that the method must work here because it has worked so well elsewhere.

Now, the “Science has explained everything else, so how could the human mind be the one exception?” move is, of course, standard scientistic and materialist shtick.  But it is no less fallacious than our imagined “lump under the rug” argument. 

Here’s why.  Keep in mind that Descartes, Newton, and the other founders of modern science essentially stipulated that nothing that would not fit their exclusively quantitative or “mathematicized” conception of matter would be allowed to count as part of a “scientific” explanation.  Now to common sense, the world is filled with irreducibly qualitative features -- colors, sounds, odors, tastes, heat and cold -- and with purposes and meanings.  None of this can be analyzed in quantitative terms.  To be sure, you can re-define color in terms of a surface’s reflection of light of certain wavelengths, sound in terms of compression waves, heat and cold in terms of molecular motion, etc.  But that doesn’t capture what common sense means by color, sound, heat, cold, etc. -- the way red looks, the way an explosion sounds, the way heat feels, etc.  So, Descartes and Co. decided to treat these irreducibly qualitative features as projections of the mind.  The redness we see in a “Stop” sign, as common sense understands redness, does not actually exist in the sign itself but only as the quale of our conscious visual experience of the sign; the heat we attribute to the bathwater, as common sense understands heat, does not exist in the water itself but only in the “raw feel” that the high mean molecular kinetic energy of the water causes us to experience; meanings and purposes do not exist in external material objects but only in our minds, and we project these onto the world; and so forth.  Objectively there are only colorless, odorless, soundless, tasteless, meaningless particles in fields of force.

In short, the scientific method “explains everything else” in the world in something like the way the “sweep it under the rug” method gets rid of dirt -- by taking the irreducibly qualitative and teleological features of the world, which don’t fit the quantitative methods of science, and sweeping them under the rug of the mind.  And just as the literal “sweep it under the rug” method generates under the rug a bigger and bigger pile of dirt which cannot in principle be gotten rid of using the “sweep it under the rug” method, so too does modern science’s method of treating irreducibly qualitative, semantic, and teleological features as mere projections of the mind generate in the mind a bigger and bigger “pile” of features which cannot be explained using the same method.

This is the reason the qualia problem, the problem of intentionality, and other philosophical problems touching on human nature are so intractable.  Indeed, it is one reason many post-Cartesian philosophers have thought dualism unavoidable.  If you define “material” in such a way that irreducibly qualitative, semantic, and teleological features are excluded from matter, but also say that these features exist in the mind, then you have thereby made of the mind something immaterial.  Thus, Cartesian dualism was not some desperate rearguard action against the advance of modern science; on the contrary, it was the inevitable consequence of modern science (or, more precisely, the inevitable consequence of regarding modern science as giving us an exhaustive account of matter). 

So, like the floor sweeper who is stuck with a “dualism” of dirt-free floors and a lump of dirt under the rug, those who suppose that the scientific picture of matter is an exhaustive picture are stuck with a dualism of, on the one hand, a material world entirely free of irreducibly qualitative, semantic, or teleological features, and on the other hand a mental realm defined by its possession of irreducibly qualitative, semantic, and teleological features.  The only way to avoid this dualism would be to deny that the latter realm is real -- that is to say, to take an eliminativist position.  But as I have said, there is no coherent way to take such a position.  The eliminativist who insists that intentionality is an illusion -- where illusion is, of course, an intentional notion (and where no eliminativist has been able to come up with a non-intentional substitute for it) -- is like the yutz sweeping the dirt that is under the rug back under the rug while insisting that he is thereby getting rid of the dirt under the rug.

That the modern understanding of what a scientific explanation consists in itself generates the mind-body problem and thus can hardly solve the mind-body problem has been a theme of Thomas Nagel’s work from at least the time his famous article “What is it like to be a bat?” was first published to his recent book Mind and Cosmos.  As we saw in my series of posts responding to the critics of Nagel’s book, those critics mostly completely missed this fundamental point, cluelessly obsessing instead over merely secondary issues about evolution.

Like Nagel, I reject Cartesianism, and like Nagel, I think a reconsideration of Aristotelianism is the right approach to the metaphysical problems raised by modern science -- though where Nagel merely flirts with Aristotelianism, I would go the whole hog.  I would say that although science gives us a correct description of reality, it gives us nothing close to a complete description of reality, not even of material reality.  It merely abstracts those features of concrete material reality that are susceptible of investigation via its methods, especially those features susceptible of quantitative analysis.  Those features of reality that are not susceptible of such investigation are going to be known by us, if at all, only via metaphysical investigation -- specifically, I would argue, via Aristotelian-Thomistic metaphysics.

Be all that as it may, in the present context it cuts absolutely no ice merely to appeal to “what science has shown” about the other, non-human aspects of reality, as a way of trying to establish the plausibility of a radically eliminativist re-conception of human nature.  For the issues are metaphysical, and science only ever “shows” anything of a metaphysical nature when it has already been embedded in a larger metaphysical framework -- in the case of eliminativism, in a naturalistic metaphysical framework.  But to appeal to such a framework is, from the point of view of Aristotelians and other non-naturalists, merely to beg the question.

Hands-free onanism

Bakker asks: “What would a post-intentional future look like?  What could it look like?,” and he says that it “regularly amazes” him that this question hasn’t been explored in greater depth.  But it really should not amaze him.  After all, nobody bothers exploring in depth what a world in which round squares existed would be like.  One reason for this is that there could, even in principle, be no such thing as a world where round squares existed, since the very notion is incoherent.  We can’t explore the idea in depth because we can’t explore it at all

Of course, nobody takes the idea of a round square seriously, whereas some people take eliminativism seriously.  But the problem is similar.  You can’t explore the idea of a post-intentional world in depth until you’ve first shown that the idea even makes sense at all.  That is to say, you first have to solve the incoherence problem.  And as I’ve said, nobody has done that.  Of course, we can write stories in which people say things like “There is no such thing as intentionality” and in which people treat each other as if they didn’t possess mental states.  But that is no more impressive than the fact that we can write stories in which people say things like “Round squares exist” and in which they attribute both straight and curved lines to the same geometrical figures.  The former no more involves imagining a “post-intentional future” than the latter involves imagining a world with round squares.  In both cases, all we’re really imagining is a world where people say odd things.  But that’s no different, really, from the actual world, where all sorts of people say odd things (insane people, members of strange religious sects, eliminativists, etc.).

So, though its critics might be tempted to write off the project of imagining a post-intentional future as just so much “mental masturbation,” it really doesn’t even rise to that level.  After all, there’s no such thing as paralytic onanism -- onanism of the literal sort, that is -- since paralysis rules out the anatomical preconditions of onanism.  Similarly, onanism of the mental sort would require, as a precondition, the mental -- exactly what the eliminativist rules out.  The closest he’ll ever get to imagining a post-intentional future is not through active fantasy, but rather a dreamless sleep.

401 comments:

  1. @ Jeremy

    Think about what a C compiler does?

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  2. A logical behavioral aside:

    "In the example just given, it will be true that “Bob will say that it is raining if he is asked, is disposed to go to the closet and grab an umbrella before leaving the house, etc.” only if it is also true that Bob intends to tell us what he really thinks, desires to stay dry, etc."

    That does not follow. That Bob will say that it is raining if he is asked doesn't imply any intention to tell us what he thinks. He is simply pursuing his goals[*] in a context where he believes it is raining. Even when he is asked, he doesn't then intend to tell us, followed by telling us. He just tells us. If any such intention already existed, he would have told us it was raining before we asked him.

    Tellingly for cognivists, I think, a regress does occur if intention is construed as necessarily prior to action. Because what produced the intention? It must be a prior intention to intend to act. And so on, ad infinitum.

    This doesn't affect your argument against eliminativism which wrongly eliminates intention altogether. But I think the above shows that logical behaviorism makes no parallel mistake.

    [*] That's a good candidate for inferring intention, but it doesn't impact the analysis of his rain belief.

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  3. Anonymous,

    What is wrong with shirts and cars being atoms?

    One reason is that these two artifacts are built with a purpose, and have certain historical properties of necessity.

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  4. A completely mathematical description of EM and the scientific theories it's built on? Where? That sounds like poppycock, to me.

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  5. ... necessarily have certain historical properties^

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  6. Wait, so you're saying if you could describe the precise positioning of every single fundamental particle on a four-dimensional plane, you could give a unique mathematical description of the experiments without using intentional language?

    The brain-movings for uttering EM would have a similar unique mathematical description?

    Leaving aside the ridiculousness of the extreme mereological nihilism that would require, that may just be the coolest answer all week.

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  7. "Wait, so you're saying if you could describe the precise positioning of every single fundamental particle on a four-dimensional plane, you could give a unique mathematical description of the experiments without using intentional language?"

    Still waiting on those successor concepts, especially the one for successor concept, and science, and mathematics.

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  8. @ Jeremy
    Think about what a C compiler does?


    It serves as a means to an end?

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  9. @ Glenn,

    It takes "common" language and translates it into machine language.

    So perhaps relating events from a strictly EM perspective may be like trying to program a video game in binary. Possible, but why would anyone want to do such a thing... :)

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  10. Anonymous,

    Still waiting on those successor concepts, especially the one for successor concept, and science, and mathematics.

    On this scheme, you could also provide mathematical descriptions for doing science or doing mathematics.

    Of course you would also have to give up the truth of "I exist" (or truth, period) without successor concepts.You would also need an equally satisfactory manner of describing our experience of intentionality, and existing, etc. Like I said, it's ridiculous -- still the coolest answer all week.

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  11. John,

    On this scheme, you could also provide mathematical descriptions for doing science or doing mathematics.

    Mathematical descriptions for doing science or doing mathematics doesn't seem to work, since you're right back to intentional concepts. You couldn't be proposing models or descriptions, period.

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  12. EVERBODY: I do have an extensive positive account of very many features of so-called intentional phenomena. For broad-brush introductions to the heuristic aspect you can check out: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/meaning-fetishism/ . For the neglect aspect check out: https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2013/12/22/cognition-obscura-reprise/

    Otherwise I remain perplexed as to how Ed's coherence argument is supposed to work. He can accuse me of presupposing his particular interpretation in the intentional jungle, or any form of intrinsic intentionality, without first presuming that intrinsic intentionality is true. Since this is the very claim the eliminativist is disputing, the incoherence charge is clearly begging the question - How could it not be?

    The incoherence charge is a herring. The real issue between eliminativism and intentionalism is abductive, and this is where traditional eliminativisms such as Rosenberg's fail.

    I'm entirely on board for having this argument: but so long as everyone continues to beg the question insisting I'm contradicting myself every time I use an intentional idiom, then the possibilities of rational exchange are dim. People have to admit that theories of intrinsic intentionality are just that, *theories,* requiring justification the same as any other theories.

    It's all just hand-waving and foot-stomping otherwise.

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  13. He can accuse me of presupposing his particular interpretation in the intentional jungle, or any form of intrinsic intentionality, without first presuming that intrinsic intentionality is true. Since this is the very claim the eliminativist is disputing, the incoherence charge is clearly begging the question - How could it not be?

    Again, this is quite clearly not what the argument is; it is literally logically impossible to treat this as equivalent to any premise in the argument. Simply restating a claim about the argument that has in fact been (twice!) shown to be impossible as a matter of formal logic is exactly the sort of thing that people call "hand-waving and foot-stomping". If you have a refutation of the logical point, show it; otherwise stop repeatedly stating things that are provably wrong.

    everyone continues to beg the question insisting I'm contradicting myself every time I use an intentional idiom

    Again, this is not what anybody is doing; nobody is claiming you are contradicting yourself every time you use an intentional idiom -- everybody has repeatedly pointed out that all you have to do is establish what the nonintentional use of the idioms are, particularly for those required for formulating your eliminativism itself.

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  14. @ Scott Bakker

    Seems a bit like 'map vs. territory' to me...

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  15. Sorry, that should "what the nonintentional uses of the idioms are"

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  16. Anonymous,

    Mathematical descriptions for doing science or doing mathematics doesn't seem to work, since you're right back to intentional concepts. You couldn't be proposing models or descriptions, period.

    True. I guess I should have written the even more ludicrous: "descriptions [of] science [happening] and mathematics [happening]," and models "happening".

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  17. @Scott Bakker:

    "People have to admit that theories of intrinsic intentionality are just that, *theories,* requiring justification the same as any other theories."

    Nobody here has been defending any particular theory of intentionality, and nobody here has begged the question by assuming that any particular such theory is true.

    You, on the other hand, have elected to defend something you want to call "eliminative materialism" (with respect to intentionality) even though you seem in practice to be unable to distinguish it from reductive materialism or even mere naturalism.

    What has been consistently and repeatedly pointed out to you is that in order to support a claim that "intentionality" simply doesn't exist (which is very different from the claim that it does exist but is reducible to something else, and even more different from the claim that it exists, is not reducible to anything else, but is still "natural"), you will have to give an account that does not itself presuppose any sort of "intentionality," according to any theory, account, or interpretation.

    That means it's up to you to show positively that such an account is possible. And that means, at the very least, that you'll need to explain how to understand terms like (to make a more or less random selection from the posts to which you've referred us) heuristic reality check, cognition, meaning, attribution of intrinsic efficacy (or of anything else), experience, and conscious awareness. If you can do that, do it, and then maybe we'll be persuaded that what you're proposing is genuinely eliminative materialism rather than just a (possibly) alternative understanding of intentionality itself.

    It's all just hand-waving and foot-stomping otherwise.

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  18. How to understand such terms without presuming any sort of intentionality, that is.

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  19. Come to think of it, I don't know that you (Scott Bakker) have ever referred to your view as "eliminative materialism." But since you reject "intentionalism" (by which you seem to mean "belief in intentionality"), it's eliminative materialism all the same.

    If that wasn't your intent (heh), then you might want to rethink your terminology and conceptual framework.

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  20. I'm afraid you're also going to have to do a lot better than this:

    This is how the Blind Brain Theory treats the puzzles of the first-person: as artifacts of illusion and neglect. The informatic and heuristic resources available for cognition at any given moment constrains [sic] what can be cognized. We attribute subjectivity to ourselves as well as to others, not because we actually have subjectivity, but because it’s the best we can manage given the fragmentary information we got.

    When you find yourself taking the position that "we" don't really have subjectivity but "we" mistakenly attribute it to "ourselves" (for any reason, but "fragmentary information" is a particularly ironic one), it's time to go back and check your work.

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  21. Bob,

    @ Glenn,

    It takes "common" language and translates it into machine language.


    According to what rules? Established by whom? And for what purpose?

    Btw, what is the meaning of É in machine language (say, for an x86 machine)?

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  22. Eliminativism says that everything is eliminated, except eliminativism. Therefore everything begs the question against eliminativism.

    Only closed minds mention this question-begging intentionality. When you stop mentioning it, you will see that eliminativism is the truth that easily prevails.

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  23. @ Glenn,

    Not sure the point of your question, nor how it is relevant.

    There is not an actual universal compiler, (though I suppose you could say that we act like one.., thus intentionality ;) )

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  24. @Andrew McDonald

    "Tellingly for cognivists, I think, a regress does occur if intention is construed as necessarily prior to action. Because what produced the intention? It must be a prior intention to intend to act. And so on, ad infinitum."

    But, does cause have to precede effect? Are there not simultaneous cause/effect models. Or at the least, is it not logical to have models where cause and effect are simultaneous? Not sure about this within the realm of philosophy of mind (not really my area).

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  25. @ Anon

    What is wrong with shirts and cars being atoms?

    Nothing. But my account was still trivial. I couldn't say what makes that arrangement of atoms a shirt rather than a car. I guess I was flirting with Crawford Elder's argument that thoroughgoing reductionists will be pressed to say more than that shirts are atoms arranged shirt-wise, but I generally just brushed the problem aside.

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  26. "Tellingly for cognivists, I think, a regress does occur if intention is construed as necessarily prior to action. Because what produced the intention? It must be a prior intention to intend to act. And so on, ad infinitum."

    Wouldn't it only have to go back as far as the first action? There's nothing saying action breeds new intentionality. I see no reason to assume that, unless other people's actions somehow count in this chain.

    Even if they did, that's no problem for theists.

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  27. Perhaps, Scott Bakker, you would like to claim that Ed's point 4 is assumed?

    "4. And they have not provided any alternative, thoroughly non-intentional way of construing such expressions, so they have not (successfully) taken option (b)."

    I mean, Ed's argument seems to fail if you were to disagree with him on this point. No? Ed even stipulates the condition by which the incoherence argument could be defeated:

    "If Bakker or any other eliminativist wants to give a serious reply to the incoherence objection, what he needs to do is to put his money where his mouth is and show us exactly how the eliminativist can do what the heliocentist or anti-capitalist can do. He needs to show us exactly how the eliminativist position can be stated in a way that makes no appeal to “truth,” “falsehood,” “theory,” “entailment,” “observation,” or any other intentional notion. The trouble is that no eliminativist has ever done so. Even eliminativists usually don’t claim that anyone has done it. They just issue promissory notes to the effect that someday it will be done."

    Cheers,
    Daniel

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  28. Greg,

    But wouldn't you run into necessity of origin problems re: artifacts then?

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  29. Bob,

    Not sure the point of your question, nor how it is relevant.

    Which of the four questions I had asked are you referring to?

    Also, if you're not sure that the question you are referring to is relevant, aren't you tacitly acknowledging that it might be relevant, that it actually might be about something, and that there may have been a purpose to it?

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  30. @ Andrew Macdonald

    That Bob will say that it is raining if he is asked doesn't imply any intention to tell us what he thinks. He is simply pursuing his goals[*] in a context where he believes it is raining. Even when he is asked, he doesn't then intend to tell us, followed by telling us. He just tells us. If any such intention already existed, he would have told us it was raining before we asked him.

    Are you replacing the intention to tell us what he thinks with the pursuit of goals? Having a goal remains unanalyzed here.

    Though I don't think you are reading the example charitably here. Professor Feser said that it would have to be true that "Bob intends to tell us what he really thinks." I think it's implied that the intention is to tell us what he really thinks in response to our questions.

    (In any case, you only would have handled the intention. Professor Feser also mentioned the desire to stay dry, which remains unanalyzed here. There is also that "etc." which can be cashed out in this way: Practical reasoning is indeterminately defeasible. My choosing of a certain means to accomplish an intention can be defeated by any one of arbitrarily many circumstances. So any plain counterfactual is going to leave some disposition unanalyzed.)

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  31. @ Scott Bakker

    He can accuse me of presupposing his particular interpretation in the intentional jungle, or any form of intrinsic intentionality, without first presuming that intrinsic intentionality is true.

    This sentence is breathtaking.

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  32. @ John West

    But wouldn't you run into necessity of origin problems re: artifacts then?

    Sorry, Elder's argument is an argument against reductionism. It claims that reductions to particles will be circular.

    I am sure there are other problems with saying that a shirt is a collection of particles arranged shirt-wise. As for necessity of origins, I think that it is more of a condition of what it takes to say that some object is a shirt. It need not give complete identity conditions of the object.

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  33. @ Glenn,

    The question is not if, to us, something is about something. The question, at least as I understand it is, if at the lowest level, what we see as aboutness is actually just matter in motion.

    At least that is what I am referring to.

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  34. Oh.

    Well, that's not what Mr. Bakker has been going on about.

    He doesn't claim that, at the lowest level, what we see as aboutness is (or might turn out to be) just matter in motion.

    He claims, in fact, that what we see as aboutness doesn't exist. Period.

    To wit, "I'm not claiming that the intentional posits of philosophy reduce to neurobiology – I’m claiming they don’t exist!"

    (See the third comment under his article linked to in the OP.)

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  35. 1) A skilled surgeon or lawyer would never perform surgery or prosecute for murder a loved one, so the removal of emotional intent has positive aspects.

    2) A lot of the talk is about EM's not speaking in intentional language, but who believes in the post intentional world that people do the talking? Even today machines can perform surgery on the body, so why can't machines read our intentional states? We have neural marketing now? I think a point some miss is that EM is a philosophical position as opposed to a 'belief'.

    3)The point of my geogravitational, pangravitational, panspsychism and religious discussion is to underscore the mind as an unknown MECHANISM. Imagine Leibniz Mill grinding wheat with gears made of jello? The thought experiment is about the epistemic gap of inner function or inner mechanism.

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  36. @Glenn:

    "He claims, in fact, that what we see as aboutness doesn't exist. Period.

    To wit, 'I'm not claiming that the intentional posits of philosophy reduce to neurobiology – I'm claiming they don’t exist!'"

    Well, that's what he claims to be claiming, but he doesn't stick to it with anything remotely resembling consistency.

    In that very same post he characterizes his own position as "us[ing] neglect as opposed to representation to mediate the relation between the neural and the intentional." And immediately after the part you quoted, he goes on to say, "I think intentional cognition and our everyday intentional idioms do admit causal explanation."

    Each of those statements seems to acknowledge that intentionality exists; it just isn't what he thinks philosophers think it is. (What kind of mediating relation could obtain between something that exists and something that just flat-out doesn't?)

    (Elsewhere, as an alternative to the possibility that "'cognizing subjects' possess the 'intentionality' phenomenology supposes," he suggests the following: "What if science is performed by natural beings who, quite naturally, cannot intuit themselves in natural terms?" This suggestion seems to presuppose that the real existence of intentionality is somehow opposed to naturalism.)

    It's a mad jumble, and I'm not inclined to take Bakker's word for what he's trying to prove. He doesn't seem to be able to keep it straight himself.

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  37. Greg,

    Sorry, Elder's argument is an argument against reductionism. It claims that reductions to particles will be circular.

    I must look into this Elder fellow.

    As for necessity of origins, I think that it is more of a condition of what it takes to say that some object is a shirt. It need not give complete identity conditions of the object.

    That makes sense. Thanks.

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  38. Scott,

    I was just about to post a comment, when I noticed the following:

    Well, that's what he claims to be claiming, but he doesn't stick to it with anything remotely resembling consistency.

    Exactly.

    Here’s the comment:

    Btw, that little quote (“I’m not claiming…”) possibly is the key to understanding why Mr. Bakker repeatedly asserts that anyone asking him to provide an account in non-intentional terms for what we see as aboutness is 'begging the question'.

    He no doubt wonders what might be wrong with the person who would ask him to explain the existence of something which he believes does not exist. After all, to explain something is to presuppose the existence of that something (no matter the name by which it might be known).

    I don't agree with Mr. Bakker's claim that 'intentional posits' don't exist.

    I also wonder why, notwithstanding his claim that 'intentional posits' don't exist -- and that anyone asking for an account in non-intentional terms for said non-existent things is 'begging the question' -- Mr. Bakker has exerted himself to the point where he now has "an extensive positive account of very many features of so-called intentional phenomena."

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  39. I think a point some miss is that EM is a philosophical position as opposed to a 'belief'.

    I think so as well.

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  40. @Glenn:

    "He no doubt wonders what might be wrong with the person who would ask him to explain the existence of something which he believes does not exist. After all, to explain something is to presuppose the existence of that something (no matter the name by which it might be known)."

    Very likely. If so, he'd do well to reread his own statement (which I quoted above, but here it is again): "I think intentional cognition and our everyday intentional idioms do admit causal explanation."

    I'm wondering what might be wrong with the person who would claim there was a causal explanation for something that he believes does not exist.

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  41. @Glenn:

    "I also wonder why, notwithstanding his claim that 'intentional posits' don't exist -- and that anyone asking for an account in non-intentional terms for said non-existent things is 'begging the question' -- Mr. Bakker has exerted himself to the point where he now has 'an extensive positive account of very many features of so-called intentional phenomena.'"

    That's an interesting question as well, but I think it just goes to show that he's really only offering a reductive (rather than "eliminative") account of intentionality and subjectivity. Either he's not clear on the difference himself, or his claim that intentionality just doesn't exist is a bit of épater-le-bourgeois e-marketing for his cognitive-science fiction.

    Either way, his "account" strikes me as a hopeless muddle.

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  42. Edward Feser said...

    Hmm, I see Blogger turned the horseshoe symbol into gibberish. Anyway, I trust it is obvious that the formula above is supposed to read "If p, then q or r"

    January 14, 2015 at 7:07 PM


    It would be nice if a basic set of Peano-Russell notation symbols for use with simple statements, were included as a matter of course on readily available keyboards. The tilde is there on all keyboard, a "V" serves for disjunction, and brackets are obviously there, and naturally, some others can be derived by going into different symbol fonts, but it's not very convenient.

    Of course not everyone uses Peano-Russell notation, we see algebraically formulated logical statements here often enough, but for the throngs of us who were taught basic symbolic logic Copi style, it would be nice to have a few of them like the centered conjunction dot, or the horseshoe, conveniently available and marked as keys ...

    A simple Modus Ponens involves keyboard contortions.

    Speaking only for myself I suppose I could go to the trouble of programming my keyboard, which Feser has apparently done, but geez ... if Blogger won't even accept the output what is the use? Life is so hard. I'm pulling the covers back over my head ... wake me if you figure out a solution. An easy one.

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  43. I retract that last comment. I may be lazy, but there is no point in broadcasting it.

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  44. a heuristic doesn't seem to be a very good candidate for a non-intentional sort of thing.

    I think this has been pointed out already, more or less, but, in addition to the confusion between reductionisms and EM there seems to be another confusion that comes up in some recent comments.

    Let's say we can pick out some description of some state of affairs that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't attribute to it any sort of intentionality. Bob gives the example of transitions between states. It doesn't matter that you can find some thing in the world, or some description of it that doesn't attribute intentionality to it for the reason that picking out where this state ends and that one begins is not, and cannot sensibly said to be in the "state."


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  45. Matt Sheean,

    Let's say we can pick out some description of some state of affairs that, for all intents and purposes, doesn't attribute to it any sort of intentionality. Bob gives the example of transitions between states. It doesn't matter that you can find some thing in the world, or some description of it that doesn't attribute intentionality to it for the reason that picking out where this state ends and that one begins is not, and cannot sensibly said to be in the "state."

    I'm sorry. Could you clarify?

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  46. @DNW (and Ed, if he's interested):

    For posting here, at any rate, the HTML character entities ⊃ and ⊃ seem to work fine for the horseshoe symbol ⊃.

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  47. (Either way, his "account" strikes me as a hopeless muddle.

    (Bad joke: Why hasn't Mr. Bakker the spine to stick to a particular one of his conflicting claims? The 'chiropractor' got to him.)

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  48. @Bob

    A C Compiler basically uses your text to construct a program according to your 'instructions'.

    Programming has intentionality, the programmer puts it there.

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  49. NOTE:

    I do not except certain assumptions in philosophy today so read that into my comments so as not to take for granted I am applying things wrong which I may in fact reject.

    I just thought that might be relevant to some of what I've said on this thread.

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  50. @Andrew Macdonald

    So what were you trying to say to Bob?

    Are you a logical behaviorist?

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  51. @john

    ha, I'll try. What I'm talking about, I think, is just an aspect of the main bit of muddlement that has already been pointed out, namely the confusion between reductive accounts of intentionality and eliminating it altogether.

    There are things in the world that I can describe without attributing intentionality to them, I'm thinking here of Popper's ginger cat recognizing machine (though, of course, that machine only exists in the imagination). I can say, here this machine says "mike" whenever this cat walks by, but, like Popper says, I don't suppose that the machine means anything by it. In fact, it's only because I identify "mike" as the end of the sequence of events beginning with the appearance of the cat that the machine can be said to be responding to the cat in that way. We can describe the sequence of events in other ways, beginning with some state prior to the appearance of the cat and ending at "m" or "ike".

    Similarly, Bakker can attempt to eliminate intentionality in a way something like that other account of the machine would eliminate the connection between the cat and "mike"(the one that doesn't involve relating "mike" to the cat). Whatever form this description will take, he supposes, it will be the right one, the one we have neglected because we didn't have the resources to conceive of it. The problem remains that any description of Popper's cat recognizing machine, even one that eliminates the cat-recognizing is still intentional. The most counter-intuitive descriptions of the machine's activity just highlight the intentionality at work. The same goes for human beings, whether you put the self at the beginning of the sequence ending in some behavior, or the brain, or some part of the brain, or the state of the universe at such and such a time.

    I'm taking longer to say what's already been said, I guess.

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  52. Bakker's last response is scripted so perfectly right to the detail I outlined in my previous comment.

    We have (a) the accusation of question-begging (twice):

    "Since this is the very claim the eliminativist is disputing, the incoherence charge is clearly begging the question - How could it not be?"

    "but so long as everyone continues to beg the question insisting I'm contradicting myself every time I use an intentional idiom, then the possibilities of rational exchange are dim."

    We have (b) the confusion:

    "Otherwise I remain perplexed as to how Ed's coherence argument is supposed to work."

    And we get (c) the equivocation on basic terms and that vagueness used as a rhetorical slip and slide, with the only cost being coherence and comprehension by anyone not named Scott Bakker:

    "He can accuse me of presupposing his particular interpretation in the intentional jungle, or any form of intrinsic intentionality, without first presuming that intrinsic intentionality is true."

    "The incoherence charge is a herring. The real issue between eliminativism and intentionalism is abductive, and this is where traditional eliminativisms such as Rosenberg's fail."

    Only thing I missed was (d), the passive-aggressive temper tantrum when author's brilliance isn't noted (everyone posting on his site tells him so!):

    "I'm entirely on board for having this argument: but so long as everyone continues to beg the question insisting I'm contradicting myself every time I use an intentional idiom, then the possibilities of rational exchange are dim. People have to admit that theories of intrinsic intentionality are just that, *theories,* requiring justification the same as any other theories.

    It's all just hand-waving and foot-stomping otherwise."

    Bakker's argument and his way of reasoning through it is on par with an undergraduate C-student.

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  53. @Glen and Scott:

    "I'm wondering what might be wrong with the person who would claim there was a causal explanation for something that he believes does not exist."

    If you ever engage in depth with Bakker on this point, he will oscillate between a position much like you've quoted, where intentional phenomena do exist but are explained entirely in causal terms, and the a fortiori denial of intentionality across the board.

    He starts off with a lot of pomp and angst about the "semantic apocalypse" and how intentionality just can't be real because of MRI machines, but when called to the mat on how that is incoherent he will retreat to the weaker position, which is easier to defend (but also hardly a contentious position). Equivocating on these two has made him appear to have an undefeatable position -- but I suppose if I didn't have to be consistent in my argument or clear in my terms, I could be undefeated as well.

    I think on some level he does realize he is facing a serious problem, but he's invested too much time in defending the strong thesis to people who don't have the training to see through it (also the people who buy his books), so a retreat is a less preferred strategy to toughing it out and continuing the sleight-of-hand. Most won't notice or care as long as you keep feeding them fantasy books, so why not?

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  54. Matt Sheean,

    The actual act of describing the cat-recognizing process as non-intentional is intentional. I (forcefully) agree, of course, but allow me to try advocating for eliminative materialism (EM) for the sake of argument (since its adherents seem uninterested in defending it themselves).

    I think the eliminative materialist (EMist) would want to say that all these events, including the utterances that would constitute a description of the events in intentional terms and the relevant brain-goings-on, are all just deterministic causes-and-caused-events, mere “happenings” in their radically deterministic, compositionally nihilist world.

    She may say[1] a description can be provided for any event, E, in terms of the laws of physics, fundamental particles[2], causation, and a mathematical (probably set theoretic) description of the precise positions of all the fundamental particles (x, y, z, t) during E on a four-dimensional plane. Even this description can be described in this manner[3]. Hence, a non-intentional description can in principle occur for any event, including particles moving into-and-out-of the positions that would constitute the formulation of EM.

    One problem is that the EMist has to plead massive hallucination for any of her hypothesis to make sense of our day-to-day experience (You guys too, right? Not just me?). Also, if she's hallucinating — in fact, doesn't even exist — it's hard to see how she can trust the scientific theories EM claims it's built on. I also don't think EMists could get around lacking successor concepts for all sorts of non-physical notions they need, like “truth” for their argument to be “true”, this way.



    [1]Utterances may be caused to emerge from particles arranged EM-advocate-wise ...

    [2]Where fundamental particles are whatever the most fundamental unit of physical matter is (doesn't even have to be a particle, per se), if there even is such a thing.

    [3] Particles can even be caused to move into-and-out-of the positions constituting the structure required for mathematical model E.

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  55. @ Anon

    Equivocating on these two has made him appear to have an undefeatable position...

    Oh, I don't think it has done that much.

    (Well, I grant that it might have that effect on some audiences.)

    Elimination in general has a big rhetorical appeal. You can frame your opponents as in the grip of an illusion - but you have the way out. It also "allows" you to try to turn the tables, to try to set the bar and require your interlocutor to start from the ground up - you're just being parsimonious! He's the one who is ontologically profligate!

    I haven't read much by Bakker, but his posts here aren't very impressive. It is pointed out that Professor Feser's argument doesn't assume his own "interpretation" of intentionality. It is pointed out that inserting the word "intrinsic" changes the topic. It is pointed out that eliminativism and reductivism have to be distinguished. But he ignores those points and literally restates everything. He doesn't even try to respond.

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  56. Why would any intelligent, reasonable person waste their life's work on such a ridiculous, unlikely hypothesis?

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  57. Also, "formulation"=scientific-mathematical model^

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  58. @John West:

    "I also don't think EMists could get around lacking successor concepts for all sorts of non-physical notions they need, like “truth” for their argument to be “true”, this way."

    This is the core of the concern so far as I see it, and it's not the trivial "interpretation" that Bakker makes it out to be. If you do not have some logical-semantic account of truth, reference, inference (maybe others), then those utterances when described in strictly causal terms are not about the (or any) actually-existing states of affairs. It's literally a collection of particles and forces in space-time; there is no content, and content cannot exist.

    So what exactly is being articulated with the theory? This is the level of the problem that Bakker and his defenders refuse to grasp, instead watering it down as if logical notions are "an interpretation" that "presupposes intentionalism" (whatever that is).

    Ed notes in the article that Hilary Putnam has dealt with this in some detail in Representation and Reality, and it is this denial of "folk logic" along with "folk psychology" that caught out Paul Churchland. He needs a "successor concept" to these semantic notions, and while you might get away with this using Tarski's account of truth (but even there Putnam gives good reason to think this won't work), what you won't get is a successor concept to reference.

    If your theoretical terms and statements cannot "pick out" any objects in the world, because "picking out in the world" is not the sort of relationship that exists in our ontology, then you've pulled the rug out from beneath yourself. Even the statements Bakker is using to articulate his theory are static that express nothing about how the world is; he's denied that as a possibility.

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  59. I should add to the above that Bakker believes he has done this by appealing to something like "metacognitive blindness", in that the brain cannot perceive or introspect it's own functions, so therefore it makes mistakes about how things are.

    I don't find that a terribly objectionable thesis as a first approximation, but he somehow extends this to say that because the human brain doesn't have a grasp on its causal workings, therefore intentionality isn't real.

    That move from the empirical findings of neuroscience and psychology (research which already has its own methodological limitations and problems) to claims about logic and semantics is, to put it mildly, dubious. It's also not clear how Bakker cashes this out, given his tendency to be less than clear (nor is it clear whether he means this to support his weak thesis or strong thesis).

    Even if this were somehow evidence against intentionality, it isn't clear how it would also serve as the basis of an account of logic and/or semantics.

    The whole project is a mess.

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  60. "I should add to the above that Bakker believes he has done this by appealing to something like "metacognitive blindness", in that the brain cannot perceive or introspect it's own functions, so therefore it makes mistakes about how things are."

    Doesn't St Thomas say as much?

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  61. @John

    Ah, I feel like Donny, and I'm suffering from new baby brain. I agree with you, of course, but I think that I'm trying to pick at something a little different, albeit very near to what you're saying.

    It's not so much that describing Popper's machine in non-cat-intending ways is still intentional, but that whether I describe the machine in what seems to be the most sensible way (that it is made to say "mike" whenever the cat appears) or not involves supposing some relation obtains between whatever arbitrary events I choose to delineate the sequence, and, for that matter, between the sequence and whatever it is that I'm supposed to be explaining (or explaining away).

    Am I making sense?

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  62. Anonymous,

    That clears it up nicely. Thank you. I always wonder what drives people -- even serious seeming philosophers -- to devise accounts lacking even the ontological stuff for truth.

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  63. Matt Sheean,

    Am I making sense?

    Yes. I think I understand now. It seems I can leave my fictional, female EM advocate to advocate for herself now.

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  64. Though, perhaps it is a concept better left to the world of science fiction than serious philosophy.

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  65. (For what it's worth, Matt, I passed the option over initially because I was thinking, "Why can't EMists just posit universals for the relation?" between the machine and cat.)

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  66. Bob,

    As Glenn has pointed out, it appears you are defending reductionist materialism, not eliminativism. You haven't even been doing that very well. You can't just point to mathematical expressions of states of reality. You have to show how these account for intentionality.

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  67. "As Glenn has pointed out, it appears you are defending reductionist materialism, not eliminativism. You haven't even been doing that very well. You can't just point to mathematical expressions of states of reality. You have to show how these account for intentionality."

    Yes. What Bob has spelled out is, at least in the broadest schematic sense, along the same lines of David Lewis's ( (by way of Frank Ramsey) program of defining theoretical terms to logically-quantified sentences expressing all the causal properties of said terms.

    But even the "Canberra Plan" Lewis's work kicked off isn't denying intentionality. The dominant program in phil-mind is of functionalism, which reduces mental states to whatever fills the relevant causal role, but does not eliminate them from the ontology. This is a fine example of how one might naturalize mental (and other intentional) states, explaining and describing them in entirely causal terms, without getting rid of them.

    Bakker, on the other hand, can identify (what we call) the mental with a physical state (process, whatever) in the brain. What he can't do is define the mental as "XYZ" (where XYZ is whatever fills the causal role), because his theory lacks the logical resources to do so. What he calls an explanation drops into incoherence because of that deficit.

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  68. John,

    I think a lot of the EM talk banks on the audience giving them pass on statements that seem more or less obvious. So, for instance, now that we have telescopes, we can see that the "star" that Bakker mentions in his article is really a nebula. Well, yea, but he's talking about the progress of knowledge of a particular thing, the development of technology for a particular use, and so on. He's undermined the conditions for his own illustrations, but, y'know, hopefully we won't notice that before he draws the analogy between astronomy and neuroscience.

    Then there's the whole matter of the actual science. EM renders us explanatorily impotent since we can't say that this sequence of events in the brain explains that behavior without drawing some lines somewhere, and we won't have an explanation unless where we drew the lines corresponds to the world more or less. Here, again, Bakker points to the advancement of science in the explanation of various phenomena as if that was a point in favor of EM. It makes my brain hurt, and not the good barber paradox sort of hurt.

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  69. Matt Sheean,

    I understand the need for words to refer, instead of being vacuous. It's part of what's causing me so much trouble in relation to figuring out whether Scholastic Realism can account for an appropriately fullblooded, mathematical realism.

    Bakker's argument is also fallacious. It doesn't follow from the fact that science has falsified earlier theories and replaced them with new theories that this is necessarily what will happen for every theory. Conversely, if it is the case that this will happen for every theory, then I see no reason to spare EM from the same argument.

    I'm just baffled by the fact that (I write this unashamedly) smart people defend such an utterly bankrupt theory.

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  70. Scott said...

    @DNW (and Ed, if he's interested):

    For posting here, at any rate, the HTML character entities &#8 835; and &su p; seem to work fine for the horseshoe symbol ⊃.


    Thanks Scott.

    I see. They are not placed between "<" and ">".

    Just placed: ⊃

    The obvious question is how you managed to leave the character entities without activating them or introducing a space.


    As a gesture toward making an on topic remark, I'd like to second a number of comments which were made here to the effect that there is a certain amount of what is being said to characterize the elminativist position which seems unobjectionable enough (just as with some of the observations that behaviorists make)... it's just that these observations do not seem to imply the more radical kinds of conclusions being tossed out as garnish.

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  71. This eliminativists must really f'ing love science, cos they're always throwing around words like "neuro", "photon", and "chemistry".

    My favorite is "cascade of neurological activity". Scientific poetry.

    The issue here is that they have no reason to consider one level of explanation as "more real" than any other. Why explain things in terms of neurobiology when you can explain in terms of chemistry? Why explain in terms of chemistry when you can explain in terms of physics? Why physics?

    It's unbelievable how uncritical these scienticians can be.

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  72. Curio,

    This eliminativists must really f'ing love science

    I think most of us love science. The real question is, "Do eliminative materialists?" I don't think they do. If they did, they would give it the resources to function.

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  73. That's unclear. Edit: "Do eliminative materialists really, in fact, love science?"

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  74. Edward, could you do something about the technological and Methuselah singularities, or have you already?

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  75. If we're making requests, I would be interested in a post on Scholastic Realism (and welcome any links to any previous posts on it here)

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  76. I think most of us love science. The real question is, "Do eliminative materialists?" I don't think they do. If they did, they would give it the resources to function.

    A: Our best knowledge is pointing in a strange, new direction.
    B: Goodness, what direction is that?
    A: Neither you, nor any of the things you care about, really exist!
    B: *gasp* No, that can't be true!
    A: But it is! It may disturb or sadden you in an illusory way, but our most media-savvy philosophers and scientists say it's almost certainly the case!
    B: I may faint...
    A: Your mind? An illusion!
    B: But it seems so real! Right now, even!
    A: I know it seems paradoxical, even incoherent, but it must be true.
    B: That doesn't seem right, but...
    A: A grand deception. God? Never existed!
    B: Gracious, but what about...
    A: Tut! No, sorry. Scientists and philosophers. Everything you hold dear... a facade! The sooner you accept this, the better.
    C: Like evolutionary theory!
    B: Oh my! But it seemed so reasonable.
    A: Wait, what?
    C: Human rights too. All bull. Especially those ones about being able to marry who you want, or do what you want with your body.
    B: That too? Well, if the scientists say so.
    A: THEY DO NOT.
    C: Cranks and woo-meisters, those denialists. No, we have the theory, and we know what follows from it. Everything you hold dear must go, I'm afraid.
    B: I -do- hold scientists dear. Science too! At least, I did...
    A: Stop listening to him!
    B: I'm so confused.
    C: There's no selves, no aboutness... and what are theories?
    B: Scientific ideas about OH NOW I SEE!
    A: Stop it! Stop it, this isn't how it's supposed to go!
    C: Isn't science-denialism terrible? So anyway, there can't possibly be science, or evolutionary theory, and even if there were there can't be truth so what's it matter?
    B: That seems paradoxical and incoherent...
    A: Yes, exactly!
    C and B in unison: Which isn't a good reason to reject it!
    A: No!
    B and C: Yes!
    B: It's all so clear to me now! Thank you!
    C: My pleasure.
    A: When I said this was supposed to upend everything we hold dear, by we I mostly meant you!

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  77. John West,

    I do think there is often a difference in temperament and interest between internet naturalist, including Gnus, and internet anti-naturalists. I think the anti-naturalists would probably, on average, be a little less interested in natural science to the naturalists, and more interested in history or philosophy or literature. But on average it is only a shift in priorities, although, on the fringe, there are some Gnus who seem to have a veritable obsession with natural science.

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  78. But on average it is only a shift in priorities, although, on the fringe, there are some Gnus who seem to have a veritable obsession with natural science.

    Their obsession mostly seems to be with talking about it. Actually doing some seems pretty low on the priority list.

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  79. Scott (Bakker),

    It seems to me that our exchange so far looks something like this:

    Ed: To take the position he does, an eliminativist either has to accept A or show that some alternative B is possible. Now, he explicitly rejects A. So he’s got to show that B is possible. Trouble is, no eliminativist has pulled that off.

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: I didn’t say that he has to accept A. I said that he EITHER has to accept A OR come up with some alternative B.

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: Huh? I just got done saying for the second time that he doesn’t have to accept A. Maybe there’s some alternative B. I’m just asking for an explanation of what this alternative B would amount to.

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: ??? Look, you don’t seem to be understanding the point I’m trying to make. Again, maybe there’s some alternative B. I’m not ruling that out a priori. Seriously, I’d like to see it, and I’ve responded in detail to one attempt to provide such an alternative, namely Rosenberg’s. I’ve explained why I think his attempt fails, but I’m open to criticism of my criticisms. If I’ve got Rosenberg wrong, please show me how. If there’s some better attempt than Rosenberg’s, I’m happy to consider it.

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: Um, could you please stop merely repeating that? Again, that’s not what I said. How about answering what I actually did say?

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: What the…? Alright, how about this. Consider the parallel case of the heliocentrist who talks about sunrises. Now, he is not thereby committed to the sun’s literally rising, and we know that because he can re-state what he wants to say in a way that is more cumbersome, but still avoids any reference to the sun rising. Now, maybe the eliminativist can do the same sort of thing. Maybe he’s got a way, call it B, of carrying out a similar re-statement. I’m not dogmatically ruling that out. If he’s got a way, great, I’m all ears. Let’s hear it.

    Scott: You’re just begging the question by insisting that the eliminativist has to accept A!

    Ed: (Face-palm)

    (End of dialogue)

    Now, somebody is sure engaging in “hand-waving and foot-stomping” here, but I don’t think it’s me!

    (continued below)

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  80. (continued)

    Re: your statement that you “do have an extensive positive account of very many features of so-called intentional phenomena,” surely you see that that is no answer to the question I’ve been raising? I’ve already allowed that the eliminativist can get rid of some intentional notions. Even many. Fine. What’s at issue is whether he can get rid of them all. Compare: Suppose that the heliocentrist could not state his position without bringing in at least some reference somewhere in his account to the sun rising, and got huffy and defensive every time we pointed this out to him. Suppose he accused us of “begging the question.” Obviously this would not be a very impressive response. Indeed, we’d accuse him of “hand-waving and foot-stomping.” We’d ask him to please show us how he could get rid of this last residue of reference to the sun rising. And if he persisted in refusing to do so we’d wonder whether heliocentrism was pretty fishy after all. But of course, the heliocentrist is not in that boat. He can provide the alternative, consistent and thoroughgoing re-statement that is necessary. So, if eliminativism is coherent, the eliminativist should be able to do the same. So let’s hear it already.

    Another analogy: Richard Feynman talks in Surely You’re Joking about a painter he met who confidently insisted that he could get yellow paint by mixing together nothing but red paint and white paint. Feynman naturally found this highly dubious, but was open to hearing the guy out and being proved wrong. So he went and got some red paint and white paint and watched the painter mix them. Yet just as Feynman expected, all that came out was pink. Then the painter said that all he needed now was a little yellow paint to “sharpen it up a bit” and then it would be yellow!

    Whenever I deal with eliminativists I feel a bit like Feynman. I have not dogmatically insisted that the eliminativist cannot provide the alternative I’ve requested. Like Feynman with the paint, I don’t believe it’s ever going to happen, but I don’t rule it out dogmatically. I’m open, as Feynman was, to being proved wrong. And like Feynman I find that what I’m offered is invariably anti-climactic. Just as Feynman’s painter insisted he could get yellow paint from non-yellow paint, but ends up “doing so” only by smuggling in some yellow paint after all, so too eliminativists insist that they can entirely replace intentional talk with non-intentional talk, except that they always end up smuggling in some intentional talk after all. It’s exactly the same fallacy as the one Feynman’s painter was committing.

    Now, Feynman was not being dogmatic and he was not begging the question, and neither am I doing either of these things. What is dogmatic and question-begging is the eliminativist who insists that he can consistently get rid of all intentional notions while simultaneously refusing to show us how this can be done.

    Even Feynman’s painter at least tried to put his money where his mouth was! Yet the eliminativist (other than Rosenberg’s failed attempt) refuses to do the same -- but accuses others of “hand-waving and foot-stomping”! What’s up with that?

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  81. @DNW:

    "The obvious question is how you managed to leave the character entities without activating them or introducing a space."

    Heh, I thought someone might ask that. I did it by replacing the & in each one by the HTML character entity &amp;.

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  82. Jeremy Taylor,

    I do think there is often a difference in temperament and interest between internet naturalist, including Gnus, and internet anti-naturalists. I think the anti-naturalists would probably, on average, be a little less interested in natural science to the naturalists, and more interested in history or philosophy or literature. But on average it is only a shift in priorities, although, on the fringe, there are some Gnus who seem to have a veritable obsession with natural science.

    I confess that I'm somewhat new to these internet "Gnus" (and must restrain my temper better around them). But, my experience with offline New Atheists is that they rarely hold science degrees or do serious scientific work. Instead, they fetishize it.

    My point was just that, these internet atheists seem to rarely hold metaphysics able to support science. Compared to even Quine, Putnam, David Lewis, Resnik, Armstrong, their metaphysics (which they insist science demands) are completely incapable of supporting the industry of their affections.

    Shifting from Armstrong to the cold water of internet atheism is a shock.

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  83. We must protect science from these lunatics.

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  84. AIK: Edward, could you do something about the technological and Methuselah singularities, or have you already?

    As formidable as the Profeser may be, I'm not sure it's fair to lay on even him the burden of stopping the Singularity! single-handedly.

    Oh, wait, by "do something about", you meant "write something about". Man, this intentionality business is tricky, no wonder people have trouble with it!

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  85. Crude: A: When I said this was supposed to upend everything we hold dear, by we I mostly meant you!

    Out of many excellent comments precipitated by this post, this must be the best. (It's Crazy Eddie's Metaphysical Blowout! Everything must go! Premises so low you'll be able to demonstrate deductively that he's lost his mind!!!)

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  86. @Mr. Green & Crude:

    I agree entirely. Crude's dialogue was one of the best thing to come out of this exchange.

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  87. @ Jeremy Taylor

    As Glenn has pointed out, it appears you are defending reductionist materialism, not eliminativism. You haven't even been doing that very well. You can't just point to mathematical expressions of states of reality. You have to show how these account for intentionality.

    I am not really defending anything per se, as I am not sure I agree with any of these in every aspect they espouse. I commented on a specific point raised by Prof. Feser in his OP:

    (What is at issue is whether an across-the-board eliminativism is coherent, whether the eliminativist can in principle avoid all intentional notions. The proponent of the incoherence objection says that this is not possible, and that analogies with heliocentrism and the like therefore fail.)


    For the purposes of answering the objection, I can (and probably should) just present mathematical expressions. Remember - I took the position of claiming that I did not think the incoherence objection raised in the OP was particularly strong and mathematical expressions seem to be able to, in principle, answer this objection.

    It seems to me that the real issue comes down to what one actually means by the statement "intentionality exists".

    How would you, for instance, unpack the statement "intentionality exists"?

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  88. @taylormweaver:
    "But, does cause have to precede effect?"

    I think in this case, introducing simultaneous cause and effect wouldn't solve the regress which is not merely temporal but logical.

    @Irish Thomist:
    "Are you a logical behaviorist?"

    A fellow traveller. I'm interested in the role of ordinary language in philosophical problems.

    @Greg
    "Are you replacing the intention to tell us what he thinks with the pursuit of goals? Having a goal remains unanalyzed here."

    No to the first question and yes to the second (it's not relevant to an analysis of Bob's belief about the weather.)

    "Though I don't think you are reading the example charitably here. Professor Feser said that it would have to be true that "Bob intends to tell us what he really thinks." I think it's implied that the intention is to tell us what he really thinks in response to our questions."

    But, as I argued, no such intention can reasonably be supposed to exist here. If it did, the question would be unnecessary since Bob would have already told us that it is raining.

    Now maybe we understand "intention" differently. I understand it as a plan to carry out an action. If you ask Bob whether it is raining, he doesn't form a plan to answer you. He just answers you. And his belief that it is raining doesn't imply that he's planning to tell us about it.

    "(In any case, you only would have handled the intention. Professor Feser also mentioned the desire to stay dry, which remains unanalyzed here. There is also that "etc." which can be cashed out in this way: Practical reasoning is indeterminately defeasible. My choosing of a certain means to accomplish an intention can be defeated by any one of arbitrarily many circumstances. So any plain counterfactual is going to leave some disposition unanalyzed.)"

    Bob may well have a desire to be dry but it's also not implied by his belief that it's raining, thus also needs no analysis. It's not really possible to analyze an open-ended "etc." - any further proposed mental states would need to be considered on their respective merits and requiring anything more would just be philisophical skepticism. Similarly with defeasibility. That we could be wrong doesn't mean we are.

    So what might a behavioral analysis of Bob's belief look like? I would say that an answer of "Yes" to a question asking about rain is a paradigm case of what the belief that it is raining means. And what is belief? It is simply an abstraction of all those related patterns of behavior that we observe, exemplified by such paradigm cases. Now that is obviously a pretty brief analysis and more could easily be said. But it meets Ed's requirements of completing an analysis without entailing logical regress.

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  89. @ Andrew Macdonald

    No to the first question and yes to the second (it's not relevant to an analysis of Bob's belief about the weather.)

    I am not sure how having a goal is not a mental state that requires behaviorist analysis just as much as having an intention.

    But, as I argued, no such intention can reasonably be supposed to exist here. If it did, the question would be unnecessary since Bob would have already told us that it is raining.

    Now maybe we understand "intention" differently. I understand it as a plan to carry out an action. If you ask Bob whether it is raining, he doesn't form a plan to answer you. He just answers you.


    I would roughly agree that intentions are plans, but it isn't the case the people don't intend to do things when they do not consciously form a plan before doing them. Almost all conversation, I would think, is intentional. For example, suppose I intend to defend my father's honor. Although I have planned to do that, I have not thought at all about the particular words that I will say in order to defend my father's honor. But when I speak, I do intend to say the words that I am saying, even if I did not think about them at all prior to the action. I think Bob's honest response to our question about the weather requires an intention to respond honestly.

    And his belief that it is raining doesn't imply that he's planning to tell us about it.

    Bob may well have a desire to be dry but it's also not implied by his belief that it's raining, thus also needs no analysis.


    Quite true that Bob's intention to talk to us and desire to stay dry are not implied by his belief. That is, indeed, the point Feser is getting at. The behaviorist wants to analyze the belief that it is raining in terms of dispositions to get an umbrella etc. But Bob only has those dispositions if he has other states (desires and intentions) related to the rain because Bob's belief that it is raining is consistent both with the desire to stay dry, indifference toward staying dry, and desire to get wet.

    So it is not true that the desire to stay dry requires no analysis. Whether the belief implies it is beside the point. It requires analysis because the analysis of the belief (in terms of dispositions to get an umbrella) is not true unless Bob also desires to stay dry. (If he desires to get wet, then his belief could not be analyzed as a disposition to get an umbrella.) The analysis of the belief is incomplete until the desire is analyzed.

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  90. @ Andrew Macdonald

    So what might a behavioral analysis of Bob's belief look like? I would say that an answer of "Yes" to a question asking about rain is a paradigm case of what the belief that it is raining means. And what is belief? It is simply an abstraction of all those related patterns of behavior that we observe, exemplified by such paradigm cases.

    Wait, are you defining "a paradigm case of what the belief that it is raining means" as "an answer of 'Yes' to a question asking about rain"? Or are you saying that, in paradigm cases of belief about rain, Bob will answer "Yes" to such questions, where paradigm cases are taken in some way from "an abstraction of all those related patterns of behavior that we observe"? The former reading seems incredible to me, but it is not at all obvious that the latter can be cashed out in a way that avoids regress, since it is not at all obvious how one specifies the paradigm cases, or which cases "exemplify" the abstraction (generalization?) of behavior that we observe.

    Maybe I am missing something here. For example, someone who wants to lie to you will also answer "Yes" to a question asking about rain. But that answer is far from "a paradigm case of what the belief that it is raining means." (So I don't know what that sentence is supposed to be saying.) Perhaps when we abstract the related patterns of behavior that we observe, we will see that the lying case is excluded and is not a paradigm case? (And would there not also have to be an explanation of why, in paradigm cases of belief that it is raining, Bob answers "Yes" to our question, but in non-paradigm cases, i.e. when Bob wants to lie to us, Bob answers "No"?)

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  91. @Greg and Andrew Macdonald:

    Greg: "I would roughly agree that intentions are plans[.]"

    So would I, but it's probably worth noting that what's at issue here is not merely "intention" but intentionality, which is much broader than that. The precise details of Ed's "Bob says it's raining" example are certainly of interest but they're not of anything like central importance. I agree with Greg (and Ed) that any way you slice it, there's no way to analyze Bob's belief that it's raining without presuming intentionality.

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  92. @ Scott

    Well, Ed brought up behaviorism as an analogy of how a vicious regress arises, so here, I think he did mean "intention" in the sense of a mental state. Andrew was just disputing that behaviorist analysis leads to a regress, apart from considerations of intentionality.

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  93. Ed, The three areas you wanted to address:

    1)Bakker thinks the incoherence problem isn't serious.

    2)Why Bakker puts it, "we are so convinced we are the sole exception..."

    3)Bakker believes nobody addresses a post-intentional future.

    My thoughts:
    1) Spending a good part of your essay on the coherence problem as being "false" only proves that yes everyone talks in intentional language whether they are EM's or not. What Scott has at issue is what does a post-intentional world look like, not the future of intentional speech. You resort to the strawman of attacking speech but not a post-intentional world which Scott addresses. Likewise the discussion thread mainly discusses the issue of language as center of the debate.

    2)Excellent discussion which reinforces Scott's thesis of our blinkered view.

    3)In this brief dismissal: You believe a post-intentional world does not exist because you seem to premise it as a place where everybody talks and thinks on non-intentional terms. Well of course that's a world of round squares! Let's premise not with that strawman, but as a world where the powers of EM neuroscience are used in the fields of consumer advertising, political debate etc. Of course in such a world non-EM people would be delusional and mystical or something out of a SF Novel.

    BTW: What page of Neuropath are you up to?

    VicP

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  94. Let's premise not with that strawman, but as a world where the powers of EM neuroscience are used in the fields of consumer advertising, political debate etc.

    Successor concepts for neuroscience, consumer advertising and political debate requested.

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  95. @ VicP

    Spending a good part of your essay on the coherence problem as being "false" only proves that yes everyone talks in intentional language whether they are EM's or not. What Scott has at issue is what does a post-intentional world look like, not the future of intentional speech. You resort to the strawman of attacking speech but not a post-intentional world which Scott addresses. Likewise the discussion thread mainly discusses the issue of language as center of the debate.

    The complaint is not that we will always have intentional language. The complaint is EM's theoretical reliance on apparently intentional notions. These have to be cashed out in terms that don't presuppose intentionality in order for EM to be coherent.

    Suppose that there is no notion of truth without intentionality. Then EM is not true.

    And note that this has nothing to do with how people talk. The claim is not that Bakker wouldn't be able to say or believe that EM is true. Rather, if (what Ed claims:) there is no non-intentional notion of truth, and if (what EM claims:) there is no intentionality, then EM is not true, i.e. EM as a theory could not 'model' or 'correspond to' reality. (Of course, theories, models, and correspondences are all intentional, so it could also be asked what EM is actually trying to do.)

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  96. [Intentional notions] have to be cashed out in terms that don't presuppose intentionality in order for EM to be coherent.

    I should add that this is not really or substantively a claim about the way people talk.

    When I hear someone use an intentional term, I understand it as intentional. This doesn't mean I necessarily understand it in terms of a particular theory of intentionality, but I recognize it as a term with 'aboutness'. Theories of intentionality attempt to explain such terms.

    If EM is true, then my understanding is wrong. There is no 'aboutness' to which those terms refer. So if they do theoretical work in EM, they must mean something other than what I suppose. The problem, then, is not so much: In a post-intentional future, what do people on the street mean when they say 'believe'? It is rather: If these terms have senses that do not presuppose intentionality, then what senses do they have? One can't say that, since EM is true, they have senses that don't presuppose intentionality (and anyone who suggests otherwise is begging the question!), for the content of EM depends on what senses they have (and if they have senses, they will be senses with which virtually everyone in the world is unfamiliar). If this latter question can't be answered, then EM is not a complete theory.

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  97. @Anonymous
    The use of CAT scans to see what areas of the brain are active while watching ads. Use of political focus groups.

    @Greg
    There are EM notions for several brain responses and for truth "we may not be there yet". BTW they are doing CAT scans for religious people. Truth and "Eureka" may be responses which transcend the brain and entire CNS.

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  98. Rather, if (what Ed claims:) there is no non-intentional notion of truth, and if (what EM claims:) there is no intentionality, then EM is not true, i.e. EM as a theory could not 'model' or 'correspond to' reality. (Of course, theories, models, and correspondences are all intentional, so it could also be asked what EM is actually trying to do.)

    Sorry. To add more: EM (or Churchland at least) acknowledges that truth will have to be dispensed with. There must be a successor concept to truth, one that doesn't presuppose intentionality. But until that successor notion is given, what exactly is EM trying to accomplish? Its proponents know that they can't say, "EM is true." So what on earth do they want to say about their theory? If EM has an acknowledged reliance on a replacement of truth, which has not yet been given, how can I hope to make sense of it? I will grant that, if you give me the new concept, I'll attend to it and see if it is adequate. But until then, what do you want me to do? Why are we having this conversation? We can acknowledge together that we aren't so naive as to say that the goal is that I "believe" EM.

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  99. @Greg:

    "Well, Ed brought up behaviorism as an analogy of how a vicious regress arises, so here, I think he did mean 'intention' in the sense of a mental state."

    Sure, and I wasn't trying to cut off that part of the discussion. I just want to make sure Andrew Macdonald knows why the details of the example are and aren't important.

    Even in just the first step, "Bob says that it's raining," the that indicates some pretty serious intentionality. It clearly doesn't mean that Bob just spoke the words, "It is raining"; Bob could have expressed that it's raining in any number of ways. If he's deaf, he may have used sign language; if he's German, he may have said, "Es regnet"; if, as in the example at issue, he's specifically asked whether it's raining, he may have said, "Yes," or just nodded his head. In any of those cases, what's really going on is that Bob is "expressing" a proposition, and that's the intentionality that keeps showing up in the regress.

    Ed's recitation of "Bob intends," "Bob desires," etc. is largely illustrative; he's just remarking on a standard problem with the behaviorist account of "Bob believes that it is raining," namely that there's no way to cash out that statement in behavioral terms because those behaviors themselves will still presume the very sort of intentionality we were trying to explain away. The precise role of conscious, deliberate intent doesn't matter (much).

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  100. A bit more:

    It's as thought one of the easiest arguments against EM is trying to believe it. Because then you realize that you can't believe it and aren't supposed to. So then you look for the alternative: Maybe it's true, even though I can't believe it. But that's not right either, since we need to replace truth. So then we hope: EM is ______ even though it's not true. But what is ______? It's some "nice" relation that holds between EM qua theory and reality. But can it even be a relation, or are relations intentional?

    This might be why EM rhetoric relies so much on science posturing and charges of illusion and question begging. It can't be said "This theory is true" or "These true statements provide evidence for this theory". So rather one 'argues' for EM indirectly, without enjoining people to 'belief'. But I can't understand how I could ever "accept" EM. Here is Bakker:

    I think this is the most important topic of our day, and not only that, I out and out hate the consequences of my own view!

    What are the consequences of EM? There can't be consequences of EM being true. If there are consequences, they are consequences of EM being ______ (to be filled in with truth's successor concept). So without that successor concept we don't even know what the relation is between EM and reality; there are no consequences of which we are aware.

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  101. Spending a good part of your essay on the coherence problem as being "false" only proves that yes everyone talks in intentional language whether they are EM's or not....You believe a post-intentional world does not exist because you seem to premise it as a place where everybody talks and thinks on non-intentional terms.

    This gets the argument wrong again. The argument is not about how people talk; the argument is about coherence and incoherence in the formulation of eliminative materialism itself. Indeed, despite having several times been explicitly stated, that's also logically required by the structure of the argument.

    The use of CAT scans to see what areas of the brain are active while watching ads. Use of political focus groups.

    In other words, neuroscientific research developed solely on intentionalist assumptions about the content of things like ads and 'political focus groups'.

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  102. @Greg:

    "The problem… [is]: If these terms have senses that do not presuppose intentionality, then what senses do they have?"

    And at the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll just add that this problem also applies to term and sense. That is, EM will also have to give an account of just how, if EM is true, "terms" can have "senses" at all.

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  103. That is, EM will also have to give an account of just how, if EM is true, "terms" can have "senses" at all.

    This relates to an irony about Bakker's repeated attempts to label things as 'begging the question', since begging the question is the fallacy in common use that is most obviously intentionality-laden -- as it has been understood since Aristotle it has two conditions, (1) a logical condition and (2) an epistemic condition. Bakker's attempts to apply it have repeatedly failed in terms of the logical condition alone, but the epistemic condition, of course, depends on intentionalist assumptions. So either (1) Bakker should hold that there is no such thing as begging the question or (2) he is understanding it in some completely non-standard way which, since he has never explained what it is supposed to be, he apparently expects everyone to pick up on by that magical eliminativist clairvoyance that keeps popping up.

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  104. @Brandon:

    "This relates to an irony about Bakker's repeated attempts to label things as 'begging the question', since begging the question is the fallacy in common use that is most obviously intentionality-laden[.]"

    Indeed. He's been asked at least twice (once by me) whether and how he was logically entitled to use that term, but he hasn't answered.

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  105. Imagining what will happen as this doctrine achieves the popularity of New Atheism,

    Crude listens in on a dialog yet to occur...

    ...

    A: But it is! It may disturb or sadden you in an illusory way, but our most media-savvy philosophers and scientists say it's almost certainly the case!
    B: I may faint...
    A: Your mind? An illusion!
    B: But it seems so real! Right now, even!
    A: I know it seems paradoxical, even incoherent, but it must be true.
    B: That doesn't seem right, but...
    A: A grand deception. God? Never existed!
    B: Gracious, but what about...
    A: Tut! No, sorry. Scientists and philosophers. Everything you hold dear... a facade! The sooner you accept this, the better.
    C: Like evolutionary theory!
    B: Oh my! But it seemed so reasonable.
    A: Wait, what?
    C: Human rights too. All bull. Especially those ones about being able to marry who you want, or do what you want with your body.
    B: That too? Well, if the scientists say so.
    A: THEY DO NOT. ..."



    Just as long as it is only your intentional ox and interests that are being gored, all is well.

    Guess we better quietly throw all our blueprints and CAD drawings away. That goes for that ratchet type socket set you thought had a purpose and you had plans for using. What's the point? And deer hunting? You only imagine that you are following those tracks through the snow with some object in mind.

    Now however, as you say, if you were to gaze indifferently at the body of Dawkins writhing in pain on the walkway, while you sat on a park bench eating your lunch, it would be an altogether different matter.

    Because if everything else is an illusion, emotions, of the right kind at least, are real in a kind of intentionally related sort of way, ... or should be taken as such ... or something.

    Because, you know, we want the world we envision ... even if there is no envisioning, or we, really there.

    Seriously for a moment, I think that the problem here as many have already said, is that apart from Feser's original comments, the question has not subsequently been limited properly.

    I don't think that anyone is quite certain exactly what is being denied. Just that some are having a great time doing it.

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  106. He's been asked at least twice (once by me) whether and how he was logically entitled to use that term, but he hasn't answered.

    Somehow I missed both; I'm glad other people caught it, anyway.

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  107. Just for grins as they used to say: Is rumination ( a notorious trait of politically progressive neurotics) an intentional act? Reverie? Daydreaming? Talking to yourself? Making out a shopping list?

    It seems to me that even if we don't will to will, or think to think, we know we have done it and in remembering we remember, there is some deliberation and agency present beyond mere first order stimulus-response, which admittedly, might well cover a great deal nonetheless.

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  108. @DNW:

    "I don't think that anyone is quite certain exactly what is being denied."

    Including those doing the denying.

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  109. @Brandon:

    "Somehow I missed both[.]"

    It's a long thread. Here and here are the ones I know about.

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  110. Incidentally, I'm also not sure how a denier of intentionality is able to accuse anyone of any sort of logical fallacy. Surely the implication of such an accusation is that the accuser thinks the accused should avoid the fallacy in order to think about something truly. We could spend many pages unpacking all of that intentionality, including the fundamental taking of logic as in some way normative for thinking.

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  111. re: terms and senses and begging the question

    I might be a little off the rails here, but my understanding is that, for instance, the account of begging the question that Brandon gives is more or less the complete one. We don't need to go looking for some underlying physical processes that would account for question begging, or search out the subatomic causes of it. Similarly, I have a complete account of the sense of a term when I have explained how it is being used in this or that sentence in a particular language.

    This is a place where I am really getting hung up with EM, as it seems to me that there is a perverse demand there for some further explanation in terms of physical processes for the items just described. I'm trying to figure out what motivates that.

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  112. @Matt Sheean:

    "This is a place where I am really getting hung up with EM, as it seems to me that there is a perverse demand there for some further explanation in terms of physical processes for the items just described. I'm trying to figure out what motivates that."

    Ironically enough, what motivates it (for those EMists-about-intentionality who bother trying, anyway) is the normativity of logic. If intentionality is a sheer fiction, then all of the apparent "intentionality" involves in using terms to mean things and committing logical fallacies has to be explicable entirely in terms of something else—which is why Ed keeps inviting Scott Bakker to give it a whirl.

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  113. yea, that's what I don't get. Why think the relation between thoughts and what they're about is spooky unless you've got some prior commitments into which that relation can't fit? And in that case, why not just give up those commitments - it's not like there's some eternal punishment waiting for you!

    That is, if the explanation is just the relation, why worry, except that it's not a physical sort of relation?

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  114. "Why think the relation between thoughts and what they're about is spooky unless you've got some prior commitments into which that relation can't fit? And in that case, why not just give up those commitments[?]"

    Yeah, people are funny that way. I don't know either.

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  115. But EM isn't actually popular in philosophy of mind right?

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  116. I think it is a species of what Dennett describes as "mad dog" versions of naturalism. If Dennett feels comfortable describing EM in such terms, it would be surprising if it were mainstream (there's a little abduction for ya).

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  117. @Matt

    (there's a little abduction for ya).

    I'm sure Mr. Bakker would appreciate it, if that were a notion he thought existed.

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  118. Since this whole discussion essentially starts with the science fiction scenario of a science fiction author, much of it reminded me (by contrast and opposition) of the following passage from a very different sort of science fiction author:

    "Once your so-called science tells you to believe human beings, including scientists, are simply not rational beings, you stop doing real science, or doing anything reasonable, and magic is the order of the day. Science becomes just a cult like any other, except with an idol uglier and duller than most; and it becomes part of the structure that the powers of the world use to cow the unruly and cull the weak, just like any other cult.

    "And once you start worshipping power for its own sake, you stop looking to see what ideas are objectively true or honest, real or sane, you turn into Witches, and pick your ideas how you might pick to decorate your mantelpiece with bric-a-brac: by how they happen to strike your fancy...."


    [John C. Wright, The Judge of Ages. Tor (New York 2014) p. 225.]

    Not an exact fit, but it's difficult in dealing with the defenders of intentionality-eliminativism who have popped up here to avoid seeing them as picking ideas based on how the ideas happen to strike their fancy.

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  119. EVERYBODY: Amazing number of replies here! I truly wish my schedule permitted more time to respond. It's also unfortunate that the comments can't be treed to pursue particular lines. I'll be posting a small piece on my site, and I encourage those who think they have my position by the short-hairs to post their response. I'm especially interested in those who think they can evidence intrinsic intentionality on a priori grounds.

    So I take it (or at least hope) that everyone agrees with:

    1) Intentional idioms/phenomena are the explanandum.

    2) Intrinsic intentionality is one possible explanans.

    3) Heuristic cognition is another possible explanans.

    Now according to a good number of people here it is logically incoherent to deny (2), and that therefore, (2) must be true. The reason it's impossible to deny (2) is that any use of intentional idioms presupposes the truth of (2). But how could this be when we have yet to settle the issue between (2) and (3)?

    So this is what I keep hearing/reading: what seems to be a clear cut equivocation between the explanandum and explanans. I appreciate that people think it's just plum contradictory for me to think that we can naturalize truth - this is what I believed myself for years! But as I discovered myself, the feeling of obviousness often has precious little connection to the final solutions we arrive at.

    So all I ask is that people keep an open mind. I understand your positions: they were once my own. I've now stumbled into something actually very different. Rather than simply assume I suffer some form of dysrationalia, I invite you to first understand how my position might make possible sense. Absorb the gestalt, walk around the bit.

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  120. I appreciate that people think it's just plum contradictory for me to think that we can naturalize truth - this is what I believed myself for years!

    Scott, what evidence is there that you even understood these topics? It's one thing to have vaguely "believed this". It's another thing to have understood the topic, and it's still another thing to have an understanding now.

    But as I discovered myself, the feeling of obviousness often has precious little connection to the final solutions we arrive at.

    But you don't have any solutions. You've repeatedly appealed to solutions that will probably (in your view) come someday. And when you've been asked to give even an intention-free outline of the model you're offering now, you've balked.

    So all I ask is that people keep an open mind. I understand your positions: they were once my own.

    Scott, are you open-minded enough to admit it's possible you may be making deep and considerable mistakes in your understanding of these issues? By your own admission, you apparently got things wildly wrong for years, despite evidence to the contrary. Were you confident you were right before? Was that confidence misplaced? If so, don't you think maybe your confidence *now* may be misplaced?

    It's been illustrated, again and again, why your claims about eliminative materialism don't stand up, and you've misunderstood the problem facing you. You have an open enough mind to accept that this is what has happened, yes?

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  121. @Scott Bakker:

    And the confusion continues. I'll keep this brief.

    "Heuristic cognition" is not an alternative to intentionality, merely another possible understanding of it. Your supposedly "eliminative" alternative doesn't eliminate intentionality at all; at most it's reductive, and at times it doesn't even seem to be that.

    "I understand your positions[.]"

    If you do, you've shown no evidence of it; your characterizations of what other people think are still frankly clueless. I have no idea, for example, why you say others think it's contradictory for you to think it's possible to "naturalize truth."

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  122. Rather than simply assume I suffer some form of dysrationalia, I invite you to first understand how my position might make possible sense.

    Isn't that your job? And haven't we been ask you to do your job?

    What has been said over and over here is, please - make sense of your position. Do it in a coherent way.

    We're reading. We're waiting. We've said you may be able to do it.

    You refuse.

    It's not really up to us to figure out how your view may possibly make sense in lieu of your ability to explain it coherently. What you really need to do here is accept the possibility (especially when you apparently have no way to make sense of your idea) that you haven't absorbed any gestalt but maybe have a bit of self-delusion going on.

    Or to put it another way: you may be correct in your basic claim that your mind is filled with delusional thoughts and convictions that seem to make sense but actually are complete nonsense, but you may be picking out the *wrong* thoughts as the delusional ones.

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  123. Scott Baker,

    So all I ask is that people keep an open mind. I understand your positions: they were once my own. I've now stumbled into something actually very different. Rather than simply assume I suffer some form of dysrationalia, I invite you to first understand how my position might make possible sense. Absorb the gestalt, walk around the bit.

    Literally hundreds of posts of careful analysis and argument by others, and this is how you reply?

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  124. @John West:

    "But EM isn't actually popular in philosophy of mind right?"

    No. In the analytic tradition at least I think most would be some form of functionalist -- reducing the mental to the physical, yes, but not eliminating the mental as a class of natural kinds. There are smatterings of property dualists, epiphenomenalists, and what have you, and then on the other side you do have a few eliminativists -- although this is mainly the Churchlands now, since Stich has recanted and Putnam long ago gave up on even functionalism.

    I do not know what the Continentals are currently up to in this regard, but IIRC the so-called "4E" (extended, embedded, embodied, enactive) cognition is a hot topic in those cirlces. From what I know of that, it's not eliminativist either, and that collection of views might also be understood as some form of materialism (whether reductive or not I cannot say).

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  125. @Scott Bakker:

    "So this is what I keep hearing/reading: what seems to be a clear cut equivocation between the explanandum and explanans."

    Could you be a dear and provide us with accounts of explanation, explanans, explanandum, and of equivocation, that do not implicitly or explicitly suppose an intentional notion?

    Thanks!

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  126. I should add that what I especially think is relevant is Searle's description of the misunderstanding of science. I'm satisfied with something like that as the answer to my puzzlement over what motivates EM (though, as is already being pointed out, Bakker's view explicitly, as of his last comment, looks very little like EM).

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  127. @ Scott Bakker

    So I take it (or at least hope) that everyone agrees with:

    1) Intentional idioms/phenomena are the explanandum.

    2) Intrinsic intentionality is one possible explanans.

    3) Heuristic cognition is another possible explanans.

    Now according to a good number of people here it is logically incoherent to deny (2), and that therefore, (2) must be true. The reason it's impossible to deny (2) is that any use of intentional idioms presupposes the truth of (2).


    Just to let you know, you're a reductionist, not an eliminativist.

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  128. Brandon: You say,

    "It's pretty easy to understand, so I'm not sure where the source of confusion is. It's not an assertion that presupposes anything: it is a fact, recognized even by EM proponents, that they are asserting a reality that lacks intentional concepts, yet they are making use of those concepts to communicate their idea. And they're not making use of these terms as casual shorthand in a conversation, while a technical and intentionality-free description of their project is available elsewhere - that description doesn't exist. (And then a description would itself be a successor concept that has to be removed, I imagine.)"

    Sorry I missed this, Brandon. I'm guessing you're the 'anonymous commenter' I replied to on Three Pound Brain? I give the long answer to you there (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2015/01/12/the-meaning-wars/#comment-40106).

    "By the way - is there such a thing as "begging the question" in the EM world?"

    This is facile. I'm saying that begging the question is not what we have historically taken it to be. Again you're simply equivocating an idiom with your interpretation of that idiom. Since I deny your interpretation, you suggest that I deny the term, but since I use the term, I must be plainly ... insane I guess.

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  129. @Scott Bakker:

    "This is facile. I'm saying that begging the question is not what we have historically taken it to be."

    That is itself about as facile as it gets.

    First: No, you're not saying any such thing. You clearly take "begging the question" to be the fallacy of assuming one's conclusion, and that's what it is no matter what one's understanding of "intentionality."

    Second: Even if you were saying that, so what? You can say it all you like, but you haven't provided any account of what it is instead. Again, "heuristics and neglect" are intentional already, and your general account is at most reductive, not eliminative. (And as I've been pointing out for a while now, it's not even clear that it's reductive.)

    You're bluffing with a busted flush, you've been called, and we've seen your hand. End of.

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  130. He's certainly not an eliminativist. He says he hopes that everyone agrees that "Intentional idioms/phenomena are the explanandum." That is, intentional phenomena are the thing in need of an explanation. So there are intentional phenomena.

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  131. Greg,

    I'm more and more convinced that Bakker has no idea what he's advocating, or what EM is supposed to be, which isn't a surprise. We're in this weird situation where he apparently thinks we should skip the part where he even coherently explains his view, and just treat it as true. Which is a puzzle, since there is no truth, no treating, and no individuals.

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  132. Greg writes: He's certainly not an eliminativist

    It's been explained to him so many times now, I'm starting to wonder if his eliminative materialism is just a rhetorical position.

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  133. @Greg:

    "He's certainly not an eliminativist."

    Oh, he doesn't know what the hell he is. He seems to think all of the following are equivalent:

    (1) Intentionality doesn't exist.

    (2) Intentionality has a causal explanation.

    (3) Intentionality is natural.

    (4) Intentionality is something other than what philosophers have historically said it is. (Not that he seems to have a clue what, e.g., the Scholastics meant by it, or what Brentano meant when he revived the use of the term.)

    He's occasionally managed to conflate all of these within the space of a single post or paragraph.

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  134. @John West:

    "It's been explained to him so many times now, I'm starting to wonder if his eliminative materialism is just a rhetorical position."

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: it looks to me like little more than a marketing ploy. He wants to write science fiction based on "cognitive science," and in order to make it suitably shocking, he wants to persuade his target demographic that he's onto something really new, cool, edgy, and Scientificalistic®.

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  135. Scott,

    (2) Can can be chalked up to imprecise language, and folded into (1) if we assume by "intentionality" he means "what-we-usually-describe-as-intentionality" or something.

    Same with (4), though that's a bit of a stretch.

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  136. Scott,

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: it looks to me like little more than a marketing ploy. He wants to write science fiction based on "cognitive science," and in order to make it suitably shocking, he wants to persuade his target demographic that he's onto something really new, cool, edgy, and Scientificalistic®.

    Yeah. I mean, I have read of accounts of people just entrenching their position further due to argument when they lack knowledge of the subject. But it's been explained ad nauseam now, in painstaking detail, over and over and over.

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  137. It is something of a shell game. The main argument is to talk about illusions and science. When critique is given, he falls back to reductionism, inserting the word "intrinsic".

    Though I suppose, we might be imagining prematurely that truth's successor concept requires coherence. Maybe he is an eliminativist and a reductionist.

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  138. It is something of a shell game. The main argument is to talk about illusions and science. When critique is given, he falls back to reductionism, inserting the word "intrinsic".

    Though I suppose, we might be imagining prematurely that truth's successor concept requires coherence. Maybe he is an eliminativist and a reductionist.

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  139. @John West:

    "(2) Can can be chalked up to imprecise language, and folded into (1) if we assume by 'intentionality' he means 'what-we-usually-describe-as-intentionality' or something."

    That's not imprecise language, it's just misunderstanding. Things that don't exist don't have causal explanations.

    "Same with (4), though that's a bit of a stretch."

    That proposal faces a similar problem. Saying that intentionality is something other than what philosophers have traditionally thought is not at all to say it doesn't exist.

    No, I think it's primarily (1) that we should chalk up to imprecise language—not that he's all that precise about the others either. The one thing he's clearly revealed himself not to be is an eliminativst about intentionality.

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  140. …unless Greg is right that he's an eliminativist and a reductionist, and that truth's "successor concept" doesn't require coherence.

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  141. Scott,

    No, I think it's primarily (1) that we should chalk up to imprecise language—not that he's all that precise about the others either. The one thing he's clearly revealed himself not to be is an eliminativst about intentionality.

    The reverse does make more sense. You're right.

    Well, all my fairness is spent. I have nothing else to be fair to him about now.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: it looks to me like little more than a marketing ploy. He wants to write science fiction based on "cognitive science," and in order to make it suitably shocking, he wants to persuade his target demographic that he's onto something really new, cool, edgy, and Scientificalistic®.

    I take comfort in the previous idea.

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  142. As I understand it, Blind Brain Theory argues that things like truth, intentionality, aboutness etc are heuristics, meaning tricks the brain uses to solve certain kinds of problems about itself (such as 'why did I fail the last time I was in this situation?') and about other brains (such as 'how can I get her to like me?') without detailed neurological information about the brain states and activities that lead or contribute to certain outcomes. They work in the same way that color works as a way for the brain to access useful information about the world that is encoded in frequencies without being able to access frequency information directly. Scott Bakker argues that brains evolved these heuristics because brains are too complicated for brains to cognize directly and because brains are 'functionally entangled' with themselves so that brains don't have the ability to observe themselves the way they can (via the senses) observe the world outside. You'd really have to read his blog to get into the details.

    My point in saying this is that the brain evolved these heuristics precisely because it can't cognize its self effectively without them. When Professor Feser asks that Scott Bakker describe human mental life without intentional terms he is asking Scott to do the one thing that BBT says human beings can't do, cognize the brain without the use of the heuristics the brain has evolved because it can't cognize the brain directly. Professor Feser is asking Scott Bakker to prove the theory is true by doing the thing the theory says can't be done. I think that's why Scott Bakker and Professor Feser are talking past one another.

    If the brain has these heuristics built into its neurological 'hardware' then they are clearly indispensable and in that respect Professor Feser is right. A complete account of human mental function must include them. Scott Bakker would also be right in saying the intentionality is not "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" because intentional phenomena can (in principle and perhaps in practice, although the latter remains to be seen) be reduced to the neurological activity that makes them possible. If intentional phenomena are something other than or in addition to neurological phenomena they will remain "intractable." I think that when Scott Bakker says intentionality is an illusion what he means is the sense of the mind as separate from the body that make Cartesian dualism seem plausible is an illusion. One might say the mind is the way the brain perceives itself in the same way color is the way the brain perceives frequency.

    The question that really divides Scott Bakker and Professor Feser is whether the phenomena Professor Feser calls "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" really are irreducible. I don't think the fact that they have not been reduced so far means they will never be reduced. I think the post-intentional world, the world in which human beings no longer believe in the existence of "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" mental phenomena is one that might still come to pass. The scientific attempt to understand the mind in neurological terms is just getting under way. Scott Bakker and Professor Feser seem like young men from their book jacket cover photographs. Perhaps they can reconvene on thirty years and see which one looks like being right.

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  143. Also, thank you again, Anonymous at 1:06.

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  144. @Michael Murden:

    "The question that really divides Scott Bakker and Professor Feser is whether the phenomena Professor Feser calls "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" really are irreducible. I don't think the fact that they have not been reduced so far means they will never be reduced."

    Then you agree that Scott Bakker isn't an eliminativist but a reductionist.

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  145. Michael Murden writes: The question that really divides Scott Bakker and Professor Feser is whether the phenomena Professor Feser calls "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" really are irreducible. I don't think the fact that they have not been reduced so far means they will never be reduced. I think the post-intentional world, the world in which human beings no longer believe in the existence of "irreducibly qualitative, semantic and teleological" mental phenomena is one that might still come to pass. The scientific attempt to understand the mind in neurological terms is just getting under way. Scott Bakker and Professor Feser seem like young men from their book jacket cover photographs. Perhaps they can reconvene on thirty years and see which one looks like being right.

    I don't think the fact that they have not been reduced so far means they will never be reduced.

    It also doesn't mean they will be reduced.

    It is like saying, in short: "It could be that you're wrong." It could be that your head is a poached egg. I hope you'll understand if the rest of us consider it nonsense until some account of how that is possible is provided.

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  146. "I think that when Scott Bakker says intentionality is an illusion what he means is the sense of the mind as separate from the body that make Cartesian dualism seem plausible is an illusion."

    You won't find a lot of Cartesian dualists on this site. But "intentionality doesn't exist" and "intentionality is reducible to something else" aren't the only alternatives.

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  147. I meant "in thirty years" of course.

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  148. Michael Murden,

    Let's make heuristics something non-linguistic but common to every species, namely brains evolved for sensorimotor movement. Every animal moves its arms and legs the same way and developed mind to detect and respond to the movement of other animals, body language. Animals also developed the ability to readapt these heuristics when a limb was lost or damaged. Humans also learned to adapt these heuristics for secondary motives like dancing as well. Prof Feser's point that the primary heuristics are immutable. Scott's point that the secondary adaptations will render the primary heuristics as artifacts of neglect?

    We'll be doing this dance forever.

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  149. The problem with the "in thirty years" line is that it comes with an unspoken requirement: both parties be treated as intellectual equals with reasonable ideas whose disputes cannot be decided in the meantime. Why should the party who can't even coherently produce their position be given the benefit of the doubt?

    How about we regard the incoherent side as nonsensical until such time that it's not incoherent.

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  150. To Scott:
    If intentionality does exist and it is not reducible to something else, like neurological activity, it may be that there is just nothing left to say about it. If intentionality is fundamental it can't be explained in terms of things that are more fundamental. I do think reductionism fits my understanding of BBT better than eliminativism does.
    To John West:
    Reconvene in thirty years.

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  151. Reconvene in thirty years.

    See Anonymous's elaboration, Mr. Murden.

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  152. To VicP:
    If, as I suggested, the brain has heuristics built into its hardware those heuristics would be immutable to the extent that the brain in general is immutable. How immutable the brain turns out to be is a science and then an engineering question. I plan to defer that for thirty years too.

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  153. @Scott Bakker

    Just a friendly question. If on further reflection you decided that EM was not a true reflection of reality would you in turn reject it and take on a more plausible alternative that explains things as they are?

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  154. To VicP:
    I don't know quite about "artifacts of neglect." I think Scott Bakker is saying the our inability to perceive intentionality heuristics as heuristics and our resulting belief that they are fundamental features of the universe are artifacts of neglect, that is to say of our inability to perceive the neurological activity that makes them possible directly.

    To John West and Anonymous:
    I meant to suggest that the question whether science will succeed in explaining intentional phenomena in neurological terms won't be answered for at least thirty years. You both seem certain it will fail. I don't know how you can be so sure, but the youngest and the longest lived of us will see in time.

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  155. Michael Murden,

    I meant to suggest that the question whether science will succeed in explaining intentional phenomena in neurological terms won't be answered for at least thirty years. You both seem certain it will fail. I don't know how you can be so sure, but the youngest and the longest lived of us will see in time.

    As you well know, Mr. Murden, I can't judge truth on evidence from thirty years in the future. I wouldn't be asked to for nearly any other topic, either.

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  156. But treating an incoherent position as coherent on the basis of faith that something might turn up is ridiculous.

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  157. I think the issue is that the two sides are not understanding intentionality (not intentional idioms) the same way. Bakker understands by intentionality a spooky aboutness, something that must be a kind of shorthand and not original, a collapsing of a variety of connections/relations which he construes as causal connections/relations. The paradigm perhaps would be a naive conception of a cognitive subject standing over against an object or a world, whose only connection therewith is the blunt standing-over-against. The standing-over-against is the aboutness or intentionality in Bakker's sense. It is a bare, spooky relation. Sometimes all that needs to be said is, say, I am thinking about Paris. As Bakker says: "Since the actual relation between ‘you’ (or your ‘thought,’ or your ‘utterance,’ or your ‘belief,’ and ‘etc.’) and what is cognized/perceived—experienced—outruns experience, you find yourself stranded with the bald fact of a relation, an ineluctable coincidence of you and your object, or ‘aboutness'". And truth, for example, is a binary heuristic for Bakker, forcing an answer that is either true or false. Seemingly we always can ask of a proposition "is that true?" or treat any statement as entailing the further statement that the first statement is true, and can be stuck in an infinite regress of binary true/false values. These are the kinds of issues motivating Bakker's theory. Neglect is a result of our finitude.

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  158. @Michael Murden:

    "I think Scott Bakker is saying the our inability to perceive intentionality heuristics as heuristics and our resulting belief that they are fundamental features of the universe are artifacts of neglect, that is to say of our inability to perceive the neurological activity that makes them possible directly."

    What you think Scott Bakker is saying isn't what Scott Bakker thinks Scott Bakker is saying. Scott Bakker says there's no such thing as intentionality, not that we're just not in a position to see/understand what it really is.

    Now, whether he's really saying that is another matter. But he's been quite explicit that it's what he thinks he's saying. If you disagree, then you're agreeing with quite a few of us that his thought on the subject is muddled and unreliable.

    "I meant to suggest that the question whether science will succeed in explaining intentional phenomena in neurological terms won't be answered for at least thirty years."

    If you think it might be explained in terms of "heuristics and neglect," then the question has already been answered; those aren't "neurological terms." (And if they're neurological terms thirty years from now, it will be because the field of neurology has expanded to include intentionality, not because e.g. "heuristic" has turned out to mean something "neurological" in current terms.)

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  159. "I do think reductionism fits my understanding of BBT better than eliminativism does."

    Slightly, perhaps. But describing intentionality in terms of "heuristics and neglect" isn't reductionism, either.

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  160. Or at least it's not successful reductionism.

    Anyway, let's be clear on a couple of points. No one here is saying that neurobiology has nothing to contribute to our understanding of how minds work; of course it does. No one here is saying that the mind is some sort of ghostly je ne sais quoi that has nothing to do with matter; that's the very opposite of the Aristotelian-Thomist view, according to which e.g. sentience, perception, and imagination are in some way material (though intellect is not).

    What a lot of us are saying is that, in order specifically for eliminativism to be a correct account of intentionality (that is, for it to be the case that there really just isn't any such thing), it must be the case that all of our usual terms, concepts, ideas, and so forth that seem to be "intentional" can be cashed out in terms that are not themselves intentional.

    Some of us (including me) don't think that's possible, but that's not the point. The point is that Scott Bakker not only hasn't done this or even argued that it can be done, but he's also tried to cash out "intentionality" in terms ("heuristics and neglect") that are themselves intentional.

    Now, you may say all you like that thirty years from now we may have an account of intentionality that connects it to neurobiology in some unexpected way. But unless it does so in a way that does away with "intentionality" altogether, that will not mean that Scott Bakker was right. It will mean that he was wrong.

    I don't think we're going to see a reduction of intentionality to neurobiology in thirty years either (and describing intentionality in terms of "heuristics and neglect" doesn't constitute such a reduction anyway). But that's not the point either.

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  161. @John West:

    "But treating an incoherent position as coherent on the basis of faith that something might turn up is ridiculous."

    Indeed. First, find some unobtainium. Then mix it with an equal amount of handwavium…

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  162. Scott,

    Indeed. First, find some unobtainium. Then mix it with an equal amount of handwavium

    It's such a shame, too. It's always such a joy -- even to merely watch -- when skilled, articulate, philosophically rigorous opponents show up.

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  163. Oh well. Looks like the zombie invasion is over for now with a "Wee'lll be back!" in thirty years.

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  164. @John West:

    "It's such a shame, too."

    Yeah. And it doesn't make me exactly eager to read Bakker's fiction, either; this pseudophilosophical BS is coming across like Dan Brown's public insistence that all the historical stuff in The Da Vinci Code was nothing but the unadulterated, simon-pure truth.

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  165. There's something amusing about EMists writing novels in the first place.

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  166. Because the endings to their novels don't actually exist?

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  167. Because the novels themselves, qua novels, exist only as "intentional objects."

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  168. Maybe Scott Bakker writes a lot of cliffhangers or something?

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  169. …though presumably not intentionally.

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  170. Selected quotations from R. Scott Bakker [1]:

    o "Thanks to the vagaries of confirmation bias and interpretative underdetermination, pretty much any belief can be rationalized to one's own satisfaction." [2]

    o "[My Blind Brain Theory] presumes that intentionality and other 'inexplicables' of consciousness like presence, unity and personal identity, are best understood as 'magic tricks,' artifcats of the way the RS is a prisoner of the greater, magician brain." [3]

    o "You could argue that commercials are the most premeditated form of communication in history. Now this is pretty scary when you realize they're primarily designed to condition viewers, rather than rationally convince them... It just so happens that conditioning us with associations is a much more reliable sales generating mechanism than engaging us rationally." [4]

    o "Absorb the gestalt, walk around the bit." [5]

    - - - - -

    [1] "R. Scott Bakker is a student of literature, history, philosophy, and ancient languages and is a member of the American Philosophical Association (APA) and the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA). He divides his time between writing philosophy and fantasy, though he often has difficulty distinguishing between them..." -- An interview with Victoria Strauss, September 2004

    [2] Bakker, R. Scott, The Skeptical Fantasist: In Defense of an Oxymoron.

    [3] Bakker, R. Scott, The Last Magic Show: A Blind Brain Theory of the Appearance of Consciousness

    [4] An interview with Victoria Strauss, September 2004.

    [5] Bakker, R. Scott, January 16, 2015 at 12:24 PM above.

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  171. Crude,

    Re your A, B and C dialog... nicely done.

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  172. @John West: (sorry, missed this earlier)
    Wouldn't it only have to go back as far as the first action?

    Well, yes. But then you're not requiring all action to have a prior cognitive action which, I agree, is fine.

    @Scott: (on intention and intentionality)
    Noted and I agree with the distinction.

    @Greg:
    I am not sure how having a goal is not a mental state that requires behaviorist analysis just as much as having an intention.

    It would, but that specific goal you picked up on is not relevant just now to analyzing Bob's belief about rain.

    [on speech about father]
    But when I speak, I do intend to say the words that I am saying, even if I did not think about them at all prior to the action.

    I can agree as long as your intention is not understood as separate from your act of speaking. You didn't intend to say the words followed by saying the words (two actions). Rather, you said your words in a thoughtful manner (one action).

    I think Bob's honest response to our question about the weather requires an intention to respond honestly.

    Again I can agree, as long as it's understood that only one action occurred (i.e., Bob answered honestly).

    [On Bob's many desires and dispositions]
    In the specific example we're discussing (Bob's belief about rain and his "Yes" response when asked), the desires and dispositions that might be immediately relevant are those relating to his "Yes" response (e.g., is he an honest guy?).

    The first thing to note is that it is possible for honesty not to be relevant. For example, you are in another room when Bob answers "Yes" to your rain question. You immediately go into the room, observe Bob looking out the window and then see the rain for yourself. In this case, it does not matter what Bob's moral character is like or what his goals are. You know that he answered truthfully, and thus know that he believes that it is raining.

    I'll leave it there for the moment. My point is that we can analyze a specific belief without needing to analyze every other belief, goal or disposition he may (or may not) have.

    [In response to my definition]
    Maybe I am missing something here.

    No, I was. My definition should have included the condition that it is raining, that is:

    So what might a behavioral analysis of Bob's belief look like? I would say that an answer of "Yes" to a question asking about rain when it is raining is a paradigm case of what the belief that it is raining means. And what is belief? It is simply an abstraction of all those related patterns of behavior that we observe, exemplified by such paradigm cases.

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  173. Andrew Macdonald,

    Well, yes. But then you're not requiring all action to have a prior cognitive action which, I agree, is fine.

    Sorry. I was unclear. I should have written "... as far back as the intention behind the first action". My point is that it's unclear to me that, though intentions can lead to actions, actions necessarily lead to new intentions. If I understand your regress argument correctly, then wouldn't there need to be a link between action-intention as much as intention-action?

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  174. Also, could you define action for me? My ignorance of philosophy of mind may be getting in the way, here, but it seems to me there's a distinction between mere physical movement, and action.

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  175. (To elaborate, action seems to presuppose intentionality. But if someone (say), knocks me on the ground, then though I didn't intend it, there is still physical movement.)

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  176. https://terenceblake.wordpress.com/2015/01/17/12-theses-on-eliminativism/

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  177. Bob,

    Another poster mentioned, David Lewis, who has tried to do what you are describing, more or less. The difference is that he actually was prepared to say more "Oh you know, mathematical states and such like". I can understand not being bothered to write much, but that is going a little bit too far. You dismissed Dr. Feser's viewpoint but haven't really indicated you have any real idea about how mathematically expressed states can account for intentionality.

    And, more importantly, the discussion is about eliminativism, and you are referring to reductionism.

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  178. Georgy Mancz,

    If the ability to question is lacking, you cannot question.

    Why? You seem to be treating it as a hard binary - either one is absolutely capable of question, or one can't at all.

    Maybe that is the case. I'm just treating it as if it's somewhere in between, instead. Does that make you sad? The idea of it being inconveniently non absolute? Or when we bring up 'sad' are we entering into traditional intellectual turf war stuff? Oblique ad homenims, etc? Is your question about that really necessary? Or is this already the end of any actual discussion - I've been through this on many other subjects before. The other person gets sick of talking and starts just jabbing with remarks. And I'm genuinely asking if this is occuring, not saying it as if I definatley know.

    You seeing dust being blown along the road certainly does involve intentionality - the act of you seeing being "about" the things seen.

    I don't know how to parse this - you've said the dust moving involves intentionality.

    So are you saying if we subtracted intentionality, the dust would not move? Or would not exist?

    If you're not saying that, then you're acknowledging the presence or absence of intentionality does not matter to the dust moving.

    Which runs counter to the notion of involvement.

    Perhaps you'll find that odd, but there are even things that are self-evident, that cannot be coherently denied: like the principle of non-contradiction, or truth being attainable, for that matter, because you'll end up affirming the thing denied in the act denial. I do hope pointing that out does not constitute failing to keep up with the idea. Am I supposed to stay with it after it refutes itself, like EM arguably does?

    What I find is that you treat the apparent nature something as the entirely of it's nature.

    Then when the idea that it has two natures, one of them an expression of raw physics, you seem to treat it that if anyone uses more of the two natures thing to describe how it has two natures, to you that proves how it has one nature - the one you took it to have to begin with.

    If intentional words have a hidden side to them, someone using intentional words to describe that does not somehow mean that hidden side does not exist. But that is your primary refutation method, all the same.

    Philosophy is about truth, reality. As I initially presumed this discussion to be. You, on the other hand, seem to think that both are about (heh) gaining a social outcome or surviving Darwinian trials or whatever. Which aren't the same as attaining truth.

    Maybe. But if your idea of truth is the way of an organism surviving, then you'd agree a Darwinian creature would evolve to achieve it simply to not die. Then the final step - just remove the idea of truth - it was just 'not dying' all along. It was just a perspective (a perspective based on survival)

    But I have to say you actually outlined my position in regards to social outcomes or surviving Darwinian trials - and I find not enough people are able to describe the other persons position (whether they agree with it or not). So I should take a moment to note this victory of good discussion - thanks! :) I'll try and reciprocate - your position is that nothing can be refered to without intentional words. Thus intentionality is inherant in everything, like light is inherent in everything (as much as it's hitting everything) in a room, exeept in the case of intentionality there is no darkness. No place without light. Is that a fair, if rough, outline of your position, Georgy?

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  179. I don't know how to parse this - you've said the dust moving involves intentionality.

    So are you saying if we subtracted intentionality, the dust would not move? Or would not exist?

    If you're not saying that, then you're acknowledging the presence or absence of intentionality does not matter to the dust moving.

    Which runs counter to the notion of involvement.


    He is clearly referring to our perceiving the movement of the dust as involving intentionality. That was his example.


    If intentional words have a hidden side to them, someone using intentional words to describe that does not somehow mean that hidden side does not exist. But that is your primary refutation method, all the same.

    You are not entirely clear, but you seem to be saying that there is intentionality - it can just be reduced to the natural. You seem to admit the existence of intentionality (the intentional side of things) but imply it is not the only side. It seems that you, like so many supposed eliminativists commenting here, including Bakker, are not an eliminativist but a reductionist. Indeed, you might not even be a reductionist if these two sides you talk of don't involve a reduction. Then you'd be a non-reductionist naturalist.

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  180. Anonymous, January 14, 2015 at 4:43 PM,

    You have not understood the objection at all. If Bakker's claim is true, then everything you've just said here has no content. You are not entitled to talk about, among other things, "processing", "beneficial", "relevance" (even defined as you've stipulated), and many other important things beside.

    This is the problem: you cannot even articulate a scientific account on your own terms if you do not have at the least the logical-semantic resources provided by a theory of truth, reference, and some idea of what might entitle inferential moves.


    It's really not a problem. If you trace your 'theory of truth' and 'reference' to their relation to the survival (short term or long) of an individual or individuals, it shows rather than having to adhere to the theory of truth in question, the theory of truth in question actually has to adhere to/enable survival.

    Your position is that a theory of truth is it's own existant thing that must be adhered to - your position has me not entitled to talk about certain words if I don't follow the conducts of your theory of truth.

    Mine is that if your theory of truth is out of kilter with something upon which survival rests, then not only does anyone not have to adhere to your theory of truth, but doing so will actually jeopardize their survival. Why would adhering to your model of truth matter if it ends in extinction? Or are you saying your theory of truth could never be out of kilter with something like further survival?

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  181. @John West:
    [on my regress argument]
    I would define an action simply as something that we do. My regress argument isn't about intentionality (the philosophical concept), but about intention (in the sense of "plan").

    The argument is that not every action can presuppose a prior plan to act. That's because a plan to act is itself also an action. But then we would have a plan to plan to act (and so on), hence the regress.

    For example, that Bob answered our question doesn't mean that he first had to plan to answer us before he could answer us. He could just spontaneously answer us.

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  182. @ Callan S.

    Why? You seem to be treating it as a hard binary - either one is absolutely capable of question, or one can't at all.

    Maybe that is the case. I'm just treating it as if it's somewhere in between, instead. Does that make you sad? The idea of it being inconveniently non absolute?


    So you can kind of question?

    This is really taking me out of my philosophical comfort zone!

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  183. It's really not a problem. If you trace your 'theory of truth' and 'reference' to their relation to the survival (short term or long) of an individual or individuals, it shows rather than having to adhere to the theory of truth in question, the theory of truth in question actually has to adhere to/enable survival.

    All I am saying is that if the governments of the Western world would listen to my plan and start inoculating students with The Logical Investigations at the begining of their academic lives then this sort of thing could be avoided.

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  184. Mr. Bakker: I'm a fan of your fiction, so it's great to see you discussing philosophy here. That said, I hope your new post-intentional worldview won't cause an upheaval in your work... ;)

    Mr. Feser: What book(s) would you recommend as best for an understanding of the Aristotelian metaphysical answer to scientism/materialism? I've read your work on St. Thomas.

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  185. @ Brandon

    “(1) The EMists position themselves as cutting-edge pro-science. But, paradoxically, actual scientific practices, and anything that gives us reason to scientific theories as reasons for anything (much less EM itself), vanishes completely. Almost everyone, including scientists doing science, interpret scientific practice in terms of intentionality. In the 1990s there was a vehement series of quarrels in philosophy of science that often get described as the Science Wars, between scientific realists and postmodernists. The latter got labeled as an anti-science view. But the postmodernists were doing with science exactly what the EMists think should be done with it: they eliminated all the intentionality-laden terms scientists like to use for what they are doing (truth, consistency, prediction), or else deflated them in various ways, and just talked about patterns of cause and effect.”

    But how can the postmodernist object to terms such as “consistency” and substitute them with talk of “patterns of cause and effect”? What makes something a pattern unless there is something common (i.e. consistent) underlying it?

    Indeed, the very patterns in question are ones that mark out “cause and effect” consistently. How can you have something that is a pattern but lacks any consistency whatsoever?

    Furthermore, if every effect has a cause and this is necessary, then surely we must say that effects at least consistently have causes! But if every effect has a cause, then can we not safely also predict (another taboo intentionality term) that any effect will have its cause?

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  186. @ JohnWest

    ”(To elaborate, action seems to presuppose intentionality. But if someone (say), knocks me on the ground, then though I didn't intend it, there is still physical movement.)”

    Yes.

    Your bodily movement is a result of cause and effect relationships. But since every cause is necessarily directed towards its effect, then your being knocked to the ground still involves intentionality even if you didn’t desire the outcome or result or if it was against your will. Indeed, this holds true for the conscious intentionality of your opponent as well (will discuss this later).

    The effect of being (e.g.) knocked-out in a fighting match is to drop to the ground. The physical blows (cause) naturally get the outcome of someone being knocked down to the ground (effect) even if the person attacking or administering the blows is unaware of this or does not even specifically desire or intend that result (perhaps he just wants to end the fight or be deemed the victor and your being knocked down/out is only secondary to this, say).

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  187. @John West

    (Cont'd).

    Survival of the fittest, say, is a natural phenomenon that is directed toward (is a cause with the effect of) unhealthy or unsuitable living specimens being removed from a population (or even entire species) in certain environments. So if the climate is tending to become increasingly colder, then living things that need warmth to survive are liable to die off or even become extinct if they cannot or do not adapt or are not naturally constituted to survive in colder environs; and this, we say, happens by nature and so is a natural intention in (living, physical) things.

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  188. @Timocrates:

    "[S]ince every cause is necessarily directed towards its effect, then your being knocked to the ground still involves intentionality[.]"

    And in case anyone objects to this use of "intentionality," please allow me to add here that the point can be rephrased entirely in terms of final causation. Without final causes, efficient causes don't make any sense either.

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  189. @ Scott

    Yes, thank you. I forgot our audience here was likely to be broader and therefore uncomfortable with speaking of intentionality outside of deliberation or in the context of thinking. TY!

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  190. Timocrates,

    Your bodily movement is a result of cause and effect relationships. But since every cause is necessarily directed towards its effect, then your being knocked to the ground still involves intentionality even if you didn’t desire the outcome or result or if it was against your will. Indeed, this holds true for the conscious intentionality of your opponent as well (will discuss this later).

    I left the intentionality of another out because it did not seem to me relevant to his point (I distinguished between one's own intentionality and another's in previous messages to him). You're quite right though, and thank you for pointing out.

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  191. Andrew Mcdonald,

    I would define an action simply as something that we do. My regress argument isn't about intentionality (the philosophical concept), but about intention (in the sense of "plan").

    Even if that were so in so far as a plan is carefully crafted and calculated, the act of speaking would still require the intention to speak.

    For example, that Bob answered our question doesn't mean that he first had to plan to answer us before he could answer us. He could just spontaneously answer us.

    I'm not sure "plan" is what people here mean when they write of intentionality. But you did say you were defending logical behaviourism, not eliminativism.

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  192. Macdonald^ Apologies for mispelling your name.

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  193. AM,

    Mr. Feser: What book(s) would you recommend as best for an understanding of the Aristotelian metaphysical answer to scientism/materialism? I've read your work on St. Thomas.

    I'm not Ed, but his Scholastic Metaphysics has an excellent chapter on scientism, and a thorough survey of Aristotelian-Scholastic metaphysics. I understand David Oderberg's Real Essentialism is also excellent, though my own copy just arrived.

    Also, if you're looking for an Aristotelian approach to science proper, you may like William Wallace's The Modeling of Nature: Philosophy of Science. Others may have other recommendations.

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  194. @AM:

    I echo John West's recommendations, but if you're looking for a good book specifically on Aristotle with no Thomism, I strongly recommend this. It's not directly a response to "scientism/materialism," but it provides the raw material for one.

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  195. @ AM

    I would throw in James Ross's Thought and World. The book is very broad and a bit unconventional. Ross basically paints an Aristotelian picture that he believes emerges from the 20th century analytic tradition. There isn't a whole lot of direct argument against other authors though.

    Wolfgang Smith argues in The Quantum Enigma for a Thomistic interpretation of quantum mechanics. Smith has a physics background. (Smith has other books too, some a bit broader in focus.) I'd say it is sometimes apparent that Smith is a physicist and not a philosopher; the book isn't perfect, but it's worth reading if you're interested in the topic.

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  196. @John West:
    Even if that were so in so far as a plan is carefully crafted and calculated, the act of speaking would still require the intention to speak.

    Yes, the intention to speak is implied in the speaking.

    I'm not sure "plan" is what people here mean when they write of intentionality.

    No they don't, they're separate issues. My comments have been on ordinary language intention (per Ed's logical behavioral example) and not philosophical intentionality.

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  197. I wonder if Colin McGinn's The Subjective View: Secondary Qualities and Indexical Thoughts is relevant, here. Can one say anything about reality without having a subjective viewpoint? And can you have a subjective viewpoint without intentionality? In a sense I'm just reiterating the same thing as Greg, the first commenter said.

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