Monday, August 26, 2013

Hitting Bottum


By now you may have heard that Joseph Bottum, reputedly conservative Catholic and former editor of First Things, has assimilated to the hive mind.  People have been asking me for a while now to write more on “same-sex marriage,” though I’ve been waiting for the publication of the full-length version of my new article on natural law and sexual morality -- of which the National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly recently published an excerpt -- before doing so.  The reason is that I don’t think there’s much point in discussing the marriage issue without situating it within the context of the traditional natural law approach to sexual morality in general.  And all the usual, stupid objections to that approach are dealt with in the forthcoming piece.  Best to have it to refer to, then, when commenting on current events, so that time need not be wasted endlessly repeating myself answering the same tired canards. 

But I can’t help commenting briefly on the subject anyway, because Bottum’s article is just too much.  And it’s too much because there’s nothing there.  Or rather, while the article is verbose in the extreme, what’s there is almost entirely stuff that completely undermines Bottum’s conclusion.  Yet he draws it anyway.  Matthew Franck at First Things nails it:

At one point in this bloated, interminable essay, meandering hither and yon, Bottum allows as how the authors of the Manhattan Declaration were chiefly thinkers and not writers.  Never was it more obvious that the reverse is true of Bottum.

Though Bottum’s conclusion is entirely un-Catholic, un-conservative, and contrary to natural law, what is most remarkable is just how very thoroughly he still accepts the substance of the Catholic, conservative, and natural law positions on this issue.  To be sure, when you see that he starts the article with some personal remarks about his bluegrass-playin’ gay friend Jim, your eyes cannot help but swivel back in their sockets.  You expect at first that it’s going to be yet another of those ghastly conversion stories, long on celebration and short on cerebration, that have become a staple of the “strange new respect” literature.  “Yes, fellow right-wingers, I too once opposed gay marriage -- until a long heart-to-heart over lattes with my central-casting gay [son, dentist, fellow bluegrass aficionado] convinced me that deep down we’re all just folks.”  The conservative as the dad in Heathers.

Yet that isn’t quite how it goes.  For one thing, by the end of the piece, Jim comes across not as a patient dispenser of homespun, tolerant wisdom, but as a thoroughly repulsive ideologue -- humorless, paranoid, intellectually dishonest, seething with hatred, and even totalitarian in his desire juridically to force the Catholic Church to take on board his pseudo-moral prejudices.  For another, Bottum never quite affirms “same-sex marriage” as per se a good thing -- though he does make a half-hearted attempt to see the empty glass as half-full -- but mainly as a fait accompli he thinks it is counterproductive to oppose anymore.

Hence Bottum acknowledges that there is an argument from principle for opposing “same-sex marriage” however dismal are the prospects for success and the political repercussions of such opposition.   He agrees that opposition to “same-sex marriage” does not necessarily reflect hatred of homosexuals, and that the accusations of bigotry flung against those who oppose it are often politically calculated.  He affirms that advocates of “same-sex marriage” can be “insipid,” “self-righteous,” “uncritical,” and ignorant of the law and of the relevant arguments.  He also allows that some of these advocates of are driven by hatred of Christianity, and of Catholicism in particular.  Indeed, he admits that “one Catholic fear about same-sex marriage with force [is] the fear that the movement is essentially disingenuous,” less about allowing homosexuals to “marry” than it is an excuse to curtail the free practice of traditional religion.

And that’s just for starters.  Bottum laments “the turn against any deep, metaphysical meaning for sex in the West,” sees the push for “same-sex marriage” as part of the general collapse of sexual morality and of the sanctity of marriage, and regards its juridical victories as the “logical conclusion [of] the great modern project of disenchantment” that also led to legalized abortion.  While he criticizes the “new natural law” arguments of Grisez, Finnis, and George, he does so because he regards them (quite correctly, in my view) as metaphysically desiccated, too deferential to modern assumptions, and unconvincing.  Instead he affirms “the thicker natural law of the medievals,” characterizing Aquinas’s natural law theory in particular as “a grand, beautiful, and extremely delicate structure of rationality.”

On the theological side, Bottum acknowledges that Catholic teaching, including that of Pope Francis, “grants the faithful Catholic little room to maneuver on same-sex marriage.”  He agrees that “we should not accept without a fight an essentially un-Catholic retreat from the public square to a lifeboat theology and the small communities of the saved.”  He tells us -- exactly on the money as far as I am concerned -- that “the goal of the church today must primarily be the re-enchantment of reality” (i.e. a defense of the traditional metaphysics underlying natural law) and that it must thereby “start rebuilding the thick natural law.”  And he respects the conservative worry about the unforeseen consequences of radical social experiments like “same-sex marriage.”  Though it’s obviously not what he has chosen to emphasize in this piece, it seems pretty clear that Bottum has for the most part not given up the conservative, Catholic, and natural law moral and metaphysical objections to “same-sex marriage.” 

Yet for all that he recommends that Catholics drop their opposition to “same-sex marriage” as a civil institution.  Why?  As far as I can tell he has four reasons.  They’re all bad.

First, Bottum seems to think there is no common, non-theological intellectual ground on which the opponents of “same-sex marriage” can conduct their arguments with its proponents.   For despite his praise for the natural law tradition represented by Aquinas, he says that its “premises may not be provable, but they are visible to faith.”  That is precisely the reverse of what Aquinas and other traditional natural law theorists maintain, the reverse of what the Catholic Church teaches, the reverse of what scripture teaches, and the reverse of the truth.  A natural law that rests on “faith” is not the natural law.  Natural law arguments rest essentially on what can be known from a purely philosophical analysis of reality in general and human nature in particular -- not a popular philosophical analysis these days, to be sure, but certainly one that need make no reference to divine revelation or ecclesiastical authority.  What Plato and Aristotle knew without revelation, desiccated modern liberals can also come to know without revelation, albeit with a lot more work.  

And as I have shown at length in The Last Superstition, Aquinas, and elsewhere, the most basic metaphysical ingredients of the classical, “enchanted” metaphysical picture of the world, and even some of the moral ones, are in fact already being rediscovered by contemporary secular philosophers.  Anyone who thinks that the moderns cannot be brought around by rational argument to reconsider essentialism, teleology, the notion of the good as what fulfills our nature, and other elements of traditional metaphysics simply hasn’t been paying attention.

Like David Bentley Hart, Bottum seems to be conflating philosophy with theology, and the natural with the supernatural.  That is not a position consistent with Catholicism, given the Church’s condemnation of fideism.  Nor is it consistent with scripture, given St. Paul’s teaching in Romans 1 that those without divine revelation are “without excuse” -- not only for their idolatry, but also for what Paul specifically refers to as their departure from what is “natural” vis-à-vis sexual relations.

I am well aware, of course, that the liberal proponent of “same-sex marriage” does not accept natural law, Catholic teaching, or scripture in the first place.  The point, though, is that Bottum still accepts them -- and that since he does, he hasn’t a philosophical or theological leg to stand on in abandoning the fight against “same-sex marriage” on grounds of fideism.

Bottum’s second reason for recommending acquiescence to “same-sex marriage” is juridical.  He writes:

[U]nder any principle of governmental fairness available today, the equities are all on the side of same-sex marriage.  There is no coherent jurisprudential argument against it—no principled legal view that can resist it.

If what Bottum means here is that the jurisprudential arguments that have won the day in recent decisions are obviously compelling ones, then as Matthew Franck says, this is simply a “howler.”  But perhaps what Bottum means -- given the qualifier “available today” -- is that the despotic legislating-from-the-bench that has become the trump card of even “conservative” justices like Roberts and Kennedy essentially makes a victory for opponents of “same-sex marriage” impossible.  Maybe so, and maybe not.  But such an argument would in any case prove too much.  It would “justify” caving in not only on “same-sex marriage,” but also on abortion, health care policy, and pretty much everything else.  It amounts to a recommendation that judicial despotism not be resisted if the despots are sufficiently ruthless.  What is conservative, Catholic, or even remotely sane about that

Bottum’s third reason also involves capitulation, this time to secular culture.  He opines that:

Campaigns against same-sex marriage are hurting the church, offering the opportunity to make Catholicism a byword for repression in a generation that, even among young Catholics, just doesn’t think that same-sex activity is worth fighting about.

He adds that the clergy sex scandals have undermined the Church’s moral authority on matters of sex anyway.  Perhaps Bottum would also have advised the early Christians to just lighten up and offer a little incense to Caesar -- the young people, after all, couldn’t see what the big deal was, and anyway all that martyrdom stuff was just making Christians look like fanatics.  Perhaps he would have told Athanasius to knock it off already with the Trinitarianism, since it was just alienating the smart set.  Besides, most of the bishops had caved in to Arianism, so that the Church lacked any moral authority on the subject.  And maybe Bottum would have advised the Christian warriors at Spain, Vienna, and Lepanto to get real and learn to accept a Muslim Europe.  After all, these various desperate Catholic efforts were, as history shows, a waste of time -- the Roman persecutors, Arians, and invading Muslims all won out in the end, right? 

But to be fair, those analogies aren’t quite right.  A better analogy would be Bottum suggesting that a little emperor worship might actually serve the cause of monotheism; or that giving Arianism free reign might advance recognition of the divinity of Christ; or that submitting to dhimmitude might be a good way of restoring Christendom.  For here is what Joseph Bottum, prophet of a re-enchanted reality and rebuilder of Aquinas’s natural law, sees, if only murkily, in his crystal ball:

In fact, same-sex marriage might prove a small advance in chastity in a culture that has lost much sense of chastity. Same-sex marriage might prove a small advance in love in a civilization that no longer seems to know what love is for. Same-sex marriage might prove a small advance in the coherence of family life in a society in which the family is dissolving.

I don’t know that it will, of course…

No, of course the level-headed Bottum wouldn’t claim to know that it will.  Just like we couldn’t, you know, have been absolutely sure at the time that offering incense to the emperor might somehow undermine idolatry, or that denying Christ’s divinity would lead people to embrace His divinity, or that ceding lands to the Jihad would lead to new church construction therein.  Hey, it’s all a crap shoot, but we can hope!

If this sounds like good old-fashioned American optimism ad absurdum, that’s only natural given the fourth, and apparently main, reason for Bottum’s surrender:

 We are now at the point where, I believe, American Catholics should accept state recognition of same-sex marriage simply because they are Americans.

It’s all about “old-timey Americana, the stuff we all still share.”   Good sportsmanship.  Consensus.  Compromise.  Tolerance.  Affability.  The things that can bring a Catholic Republican together with his gay buddy Jim for a burger and some bluegrass in Gramercy Park.  You know, the stuff that really matters at the end of the day. 

Uptight teachers of the faithful are always setting father against son and mother against daughter, but that’s no way to win over the youth demographic.  The modern Catholic will find a surer guide in Modern Family.  If the kids aren’t down with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, let’s try William James’s Gospel of Relaxation.  So take it easy, fellow Catholics.  Go with the flow.  Chill out.  It’s all good.  Not exactly the Beatitudes, but mind you it is all so very American.  I would say that Bottum isn’t being true to his religion, except that I suspect that he is. 

Anyway, as a famous non-American once said, no man can serve two masters.  And by Bottum’s own admission, people like his pal Jim aren’t likely to be satisfied with back-slapping bonhomie, or with the Church being a good loser.  They don’t want Catholics merely to quit the field.  They want them to obey -- to pay for contraceptives, to photograph same-sex “weddings,” to keep their opinions about sexual morality to themselves if they know what’s good for them.  If you’ll forgive more pop culture references -- perhaps the only “stuff we all still share” any more in this One Nation Under Compulsory Genial Tolerance -- Bottum starts by channeling Sally Field, but will end up on the floor alongside Kevin Bacon

424 comments:

  1. What if a photographer refused a job at an event celebrating an individual's "deliverance" from the homosexual lifestyle?

    In that case, as in the case of the gay wedding and the interracial wedding, the aggrieved party should be allowed to bring a civil suit against the business. And I don't see the ability to bring such a civil suit to be a tyrannical encroachment on freedom.

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  2. "I'd like it very much if gays would start hearing proposed moral objections not as an expression of antagonistic "homophobia" but as a compassionate You're going to hurt yourself if you keep doing that."

    I think that most people would agree with that in principle. But when some average Joe running a chucker and supporting a wife and three kids sees his taxes or insurance costs go up in order to support those who not only ignore moral hazards, but engage in what naturally appear to him as putrid and pointless activities in the first place, tolerance wanes ... especially as he calculates the apparent cost to him of these others' insistent moral insanity within the framework of the modern mixed economy social insurance state.

    The left of course see the cure for this in more socialism and cost distribution, not less; much as the cure for drowning is found in total and permanent submersion beneath the surface of the water.

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  3. "What if he refused to photograph interracial weddings, because he was morally opposed to them? Same thing?"

    Also, what if a Christian photographer refused to work a party celebrating a successful second trimester abortion? Being that second trimester abortion is legal, wouldn't this demonstrate that the photographer hates women?

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  4. "In that case, as in the case of the gay wedding and the interracial wedding, the aggrieved party should be allowed to bring a civil suit against the business. And I don't see the ability to bring such a civil suit to be a tyrannical encroachment on freedom."

    Agreed, I don't see the ability to bring a civil suit against the business as a tyrannical encroachment on freedom either. I do see the tyrannical encroachment when the courts force photographers to take jobs they don't want to take.

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  5. Anonymous said...

    "One Nation Under Compulsory Genial Tolerance"

    No . . . Compulsory Genial Affirmation.

    Tolerance is not nearly enough.

    August 28, 2013 at 7:43 PM"


    Obama is on record as having said so outright.

    There should be no doubt in anyone's mind - not even those who've not slogged through the historical literature in an academic setting , what the modern liberal/progressive is really aiming for ultimately.

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  6. oh goodness, let's keep the conversation intelligent, shall we, anonymouses.

    Scott,

    That would be wonderful. I do think, technical Natural Law stuff aside, it would be absolutely great if the current political situation was really about a more balanced approach to sexuality in our society. It's just not like that, though. It seems to me that right now the debate isn't just about gay marriage or what-have-you, it's Modernism, Marx, Lacan, et al vs. the kind of classical perspective being advocated here. It's a clash of world views that are mutually exclusive, and that's leading to the kind of animosity that often characterizes these conversations. It's a genuine fight to the death. The issue of homosexuality is just symptomatic of this deeper rift. I hope I'm wrong, though.

    Brandon,

    How would you make such a precise argument as you describe? Certainly it's difficult to formulate these sorts of arguments as different folks will place a different emphasis on the various ends involved based on their own situation, and want to know (with good reason) why this end rather than that one is so important. I am puzzled though, as to why you would say he doesn't have to demonstrate that they are morally acceptable. It seems that skepticism about this aspect of Natural Law only leaves us with doubt as to whether or not the principle in question is universal or just generally the case. These aren't positive reasons (as Scott demanded) to go forward with the behavior in question. It's an interesting dilemma, but it doesn't seem to amount to justification for acting, in which case I fail to see the practical force of the argument you and Scott are describing. As I understand it, the argument rests on the very technical issue that there could be exceptions to the NL strictures on sexuality, not that it is actually difficult to see what is generally wrong or worthy of avoidance about certain sexual behaviors given NL. I am probably misunderstanding something, though.

    -matt

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  7. @DNW:

    "I think that most people would agree with that in principle. But . . . tolerance wanes . . . "

    That's true too, but I'm not talking about impatience on the part of the critic; I'm talking about the tendency of the criticized to hear any sort of moral objection to gay sex as "homophobic" or based on hatred.

    I have a hard time understanding how The ultimate fulfillment of your nature is to enjoy the Beatific Vision and what you're doing will hinder you in that aim can be interpreted as a message of fear or hate.

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  8. I do see the tyrannical encroachment when the courts force photographers to take jobs they don't want to take.

    What court is doing that?

    You guys write as if federal judges are sending out the militia to force photographers to cover gay weddings at gunpoint.

    But I think what we're actually talking about is juries of our peers in civil courts potentially awarding damages to aggrieved parties.

    A photographer can still decline to photograph gay weddings if he's willing to risk being sued and losing in court.

    But the larger point here is that you guys act as if you weren't aware that freedom is sometimes a zero sum game. It's not really possible in civil society for everyone to have unrestricted liberty, and sometimes, when freedoms are pitched against each other, society has to choose which freedom is more in the public interest. We long ago decided that the freedom of individuals to eat at lunch counters and ride on buses is more important than the freedom of the business owner to decline to serve classes of people he doesn't like.

    I don't think anyone here is a bad person, but I do think you are all so philosophically-minded you're no political good. If you really expect to turn back the tide on gay marriage by suggesting the civil rights movement was wrong to desegregate lunch counters... then I don't know what to say.

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  9. Scott,

    "The ultimate fulfillment of your nature is to enjoy the Beatific Vision and what you're doing will hinder you in that aim," said the rancher to the cow that refused to eat the fattening grain.

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  10. Scott said...

    @DNW:

    "I think that most people would agree with that in principle. But . . . tolerance wanes . . . "

    That's true too, but I'm not talking about impatience on the part of the critic; I'm talking about the tendency of the criticized to hear any sort of moral objection to gay sex as "homophobic" or based on hatred.

    I have a hard time understanding how The ultimate fulfillment of your nature is to enjoy the Beatific Vision and what you're doing will hinder you in that aim can be interpreted as a message of fear or hate.
    August 29, 2013 at 10:06 AM



    Yes, I see that I completely misread the sense of your text.

    You actually wrote:

    "I'd like it very much if gays would start hearing proposed moral objections not as an expression of antagonistic "homophobia" but as a compassionate You're going to hurt yourself if you keep doing that."

    Whereas my brain misread it as,

    "I'd like it very much if gays would start hearing proposed moral objections not as (i.e., not framed in terms of) [an] expression(s) of antagonistic "homophobia" but as [a] compassionate You're going to hurt yourself if you keep doing that (sentiments)."


    If I'm going to comment while working I should focus on one task at a time.

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  11. You guys write as if federal judges are sending out the militia to force photographers to cover gay weddings at gunpoint.

    Why of course not, don't be silly. Instead, they're allowing LGBT activists to sue photographers who cover their mock 'weddings', which can result in a judgment against them, at which point men with guns will show up to rob them of their belongings and their livelihood, and either shoot or imprison them if they resist.

    Who could object to that? Freedom is a zero sum game at times, you know. It's a little like abortion. Abortion is legal. So, if a woman goes to a Catholic obstetrician demanding a third trimester abortion, it makes complete sense that the courts would allow a civil suit against the doctor if they refuse.

    Anyway, with sarcasm off, I'll mention something additionally idiotic about the photographer case. By all accounts I've read, it's not that the couple refused to take pictures of 'gay men' period. They refused to take pictures in the particular context they were being asked to - a gay mock-wedding. This is a little like crying 'Civil Rights!' if the photographers refused to cover, say... a pro-abortion rally in a positive light, but the person hiring them/head of the rally was a black man.

    But, hey, message received loud and cloud: freedom is a zero-sum game. And if the choice is between allowing photographers (artists, I suppose they'd be called, in another situation) to choose what art they'd like to create, or to have a gay couple experience even the slightest feeling of rejection not about their very existence, but even an extraneous aspect of their existence, well... it's just far, far too important to equality and fairness to allow people to dissent on this, ever. Nope, we better let this couple be penalized and possibly run out of business.

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  12. "A photographer can still decline to photograph gay weddings if he's willing to risk being sued and losing in court."

    That's actually what I'm trying to figure out. If the photographer loses in court, does that mean the refusal is wrong? Obviously the courts think so. I gather that from their verdict. What would you say? Honestly, you've given me every impression that you do think same sex marriage is wrong from your Christian point of view. So do you admire the Christian for standing up for what they believe or condemn them as bigots? Separation of Christian values and secular political values is always tough.

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  13. What if he refused to photograph interracial weddings, because he was morally opposed to them? Same thing?

    Sure. He might be wrong and it might be racist, but I don't see why we have to make him do it. It's his prerogative.

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  14. Instead, they're allowing LGBT activists to sue photographers who cover their mock 'weddings', which can result in a judgment against them, at which point men with guns will show up to rob them of their belongings and their livelihood, and either shoot or imprison them if they resist.

    I'm really not aware of it being a common practice for policemen or branches of the armed forces to come and collect on damages owed in civil court at gunpoint.

    Is it possible you're being slightly dramatic?

    You know, a businessman can be brought to civil court for any number of ludicrous reasons, and given massive financial rewards by any number of incompetent jury decisions. Why should business owners be immune from prosecution from gay men and women? Why should gay men and women uniquely be disallowed from filing civil suits?

    You do see, don't you, that in the name of freedom you're isolating a particular class and depriving them of a freedom everyone else has?

    Again, it's a zero sum game. Ultimately, society has to choose - should the shop owners have some odd freedom to be immune from being sued in civil court for their potentially discriminatory policies against gays or should gay men and women have their freedom to bring civil suits like everyone else?

    And I'd argue it's pretty obvious which side is going to win that argument.

    Here's the thing though: no one, not even the most tyrannical dictator, can take away your right to act your conscience. But that's not what you guys want - you guys want to be able to act your conscience free of charge, and there's no such thing. Conscience do cost.

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  15. malcolm:

    Sure. He might be wrong and it might be racist, but I don't see why we have to make him do it. It's his prerogative.

    Juries won't make him do it, they'll just make it expensive for him to refuse.

    Whether he thinks refusing to do it is worth the cost is up to him.

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  16. "Juries won't make him do it, they'll just make it expensive for him to refuse.

    Whether he thinks refusing to do it is worth the cost is up to him."

    Yes, and at one time it would have been expensive for a white businessman to ignore Jim Crow laws. The laws were still wrong. I say as much. You agree I'm sure.

    I'm asking, do you admire a Christian for refusing to participate in something YOU seem to think is immoral (same sex marriage)? I get society doesn't think it's immoral. I'm asking what you think?

    Eric

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  17. Chad Handley said...

    malcolm:

    Sure. He might be wrong and it might be racist, but I don't see why we have to make him do it. It's his prerogative.

    Juries won't make him do it, they'll just make it expensive for him to refuse.

    Whether he thinks refusing to do it is worth the cost is up to him.
    August 29, 2013 at 11:07 AM "


    Sort of like for the recusants.

    Fascism always has an acrid odor, though some seem to delight in it.

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  18. I'm really not aware of it being a common practice for policemen or branches of the armed forces to come and collect on damages owed in civil court at gunpoint.

    Is it possible you're being slightly dramatic?


    Dramatic? What the hell do you think happens if you refuse to pay damages in a civil suit? "Oh gosh, really? Well we tried. Pack it up gents, this one's stubborn!"?

    No, I'm not being slightly dramatic. I'm being utterly realistic. You're trying to downplay the use of government power to force people in this case, as if civil suits merely result in kindly suggestions, rather than orders backed by, yes, large groups of men with guns.

    Why should business owners be immune from prosecution from gay men and women? Why should gay men and women uniquely be disallowed from filing civil suits?

    You do see, don't you, that in the name of freedom you're isolating a particular class and depriving them of a freedom everyone else has?


    In this case, your argument doesn't even get off the ground. The only possible way it would is if this photography couple refused to take pictures of any gays, period, in any context. But by all indications, that's not what's going on here.

    They are, by the reports I've read, not discriminating against individuals for who they are. They do not want to take part in covering an *act* or *event* that they morally object to. Big difference.

    And I'd argue it's pretty obvious which side is going to win that argument.

    'Winning that argument', in this case, not meaning 'whose argument is intellectually superior?' but 'who, by hook or by crook, gets the court to side with them'. Because intellectually? You don't have a leg to stand on. Even legally, on a normal reading of civil rights laws, you're in the worse position by far. For all that matters.

    But hey - you get what you want. And clearly you're against gay marriage in the church. That's not a load or anything. You just happen to think that any Christians who run a business and refuse to take part in a gay marriage ceremony should be sued, punished, and have their possessions taken away. No indications of insincerity there, no sir.

    Here's the thing though: no one, not even the most tyrannical dictator, can take away your right to act your conscience. But that's not what you guys want - you guys want to be able to act your conscience free of charge, and there's no such thing. Conscience do cost.

    Ahahahaha. This is great.

    Hey everyone, guess what? Kim Jong-Il didn't take away anyone's right to act on their consciences. Nope, utterly impossible. You had and have complete freedom to act on your conscience in North Korea.

    ... Now those bastards may *kill* you, and your family. Fair point, fair point. But what do you expect, guys? But, according to my totally reasonable and not insane standard, you totally have the right to act on your conscience there. There's just a cost associated with it. What, you don't want there to be a COST associated with acting on your conscience?

    Well, now you're just being unreasonable!

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  19. I suppose I should add, in the interests of perpetuating this particular comedy...

    I'm not against a gay couple filing a civil suit against a photographer who refuses to take pictures of their mock wedding. No, I'm completely in favor of that. They should have that right.

    I simply think each and every time they do so, the case should be immediately thrown out, and they should be fined 500 dollars for wasting the court's time.

    But I totally support their right to file that suit. Clearly.

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  20. I'm coming late to this, but I just wanted to say that Chad Handley's statements have inadvertently revealed a lot about him, and about those who think and argue like him. Let's pull up a few choice quotes:

    "Even granting some overlap, at least a quarter of all Russians think some pretty heinous things about gay folks."

    and:

    "That they object to homosexuality out of proportion to their Christian membership is further evidence, to me, that their opposition is not principled (unless natural law theory is really popular among Russian atheists)."

    and:

    "Full disclosure, I don't have much of a problem with gay marriage at all outside the church.I think at-will divorce laws do much more harm to traditional marriage than gay marriage ever would or could. To the extent I oppose it within the church, I oppose it on scriptural grounds. I don't think gays are any more disordered than most of the rest of us."

    So, Chad thinks that being against gay marriage if you're not explicitly a Christian who opposes it on "scriptural grounds" indicates that you must be bigoted. Apparently, there's no valid reason at all, outside the Bible, that anyone could oppose it.

    Corresponding to this, Chad also thinks that sin is relative, and that "Christian morality" doesn't apply outside the church. So, "outside the church" it's not sinful or disordered to engage in homosexual sex or to conflate it with marriage, and he doesn't "have much of a problem with it."

    But this makes no sense. If "Christian morality" doesn't apply outside the Church, then by what means does Chad condemn the Russians? If the Russians "think some pretty heinous things about gay folks" just because it grosses them out, so what? Chad can't condemn them for failing to uphold Christian kindness and the dignity of persons while simultaneously claiming that Christian morality doesn't apply outside the Church when he doesn't want it to.

    And by what metric, outside of so-called "Christian morality," is the view of the Russian zeitgeist that homosexual relationships are perverse and should be suppressed any worse or less valid than the view of the American zeitgeist that homosexual relationships are fabulous and should be celebrated as equal to marriage? There is none. And why must the Russian view be "principled" in order to not be "bigoted," but the American view doesn't need any justification beyond peoples feeeeelings? Again, there is no objective rationale for that.

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  21. (cont)

    In fact, given Chad's advice that the Church should just stand down on homosexuality because it makes them unpopular in America, he should be advising the Church in Russia to just go along to get along with the Russian people when it comes to suppressing homosexuals, which is *far* more popular there than "gay rights" are here!

    The truth is, Chad is engaged in serious cognitive dissonance about Christian moral teaching. His religion isn't what he thinks it is. He has thoroughly absorbed and adopted the moral worldview of the Leftist religion where it comes to homosexuality, namely that:

    1) Relationships based on gay sex are manifestly good and ordered and right, and equal to marriage, and so should be recognized as such by all objective, right-thinking people.

    2) Anyone who disagrees with that is a bigot.

    This is what Chad takes to be the real and true moral facts of the universe, applying to everyone on the globe, including in Russia.

    He attempts to square the circle, and remain a nominally orthodox Christian, by providing the excuse that he opposes gay marriage "inside the Church" based on "scriptural grounds" - scriptural grounds that he believes to be subjective and arbitrary, unlike the objectively binding Leftist morality. It's the basic, fideistic "personally opposed but..." excuse we see from so many "Christian" acolytes of secular morality on abortion.

    His position boils down to, "Hey guys, I agree that gay marriage is manifestly right and good and that to oppose it is bigotry, but I've got to oppose it 'inside the church' because of this completely arbitrary and irrational scriptural prohibition."

    What's funny is, if anything counts as "bigotry," then opposing something that you think is good based on arbitrary reasons is it, but Chad calls this a "principled" opposition, as opposed to the Russians' "bigoted" opposition for doing what they think is actually right.

    Anyhow, the real reason that Chad doesn't want the Church to expend any energy on teaching regarding gay marriage is simple, and it's got nothing to do with its reputation or its chances of winning, as implied by his opposite view regarding what to do in Russia. It's the same reason that the "personally opposed but..." crew doesn't want to put any actual effort into combating abortion: People aren't typically enthusiastic about opposing that which they favor.

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  22. Crude:

    Dramatic? What the hell do you think happens if you refuse to pay damages in a civil suit? "Oh gosh, really? Well we tried. Pack it up gents, this one's stubborn!"?

    Well, (speaking anecdotally from what I hear from my lawyer brother until I have time to research it later) I'm told that's exactly what happens. I'm told successful litigants in civil court almost never receive the full damages they were awarded in court. I'm told the method is to pay it off at the most minimal rate possible, and that if you do so, there's nothing the courts can do to you.

    But I'd be willing to be corrected. Please, cite all these cases of armed men showing up to collect on delinquent debts owed in civil court.

    In this case, your argument doesn't even get off the ground. The only possible way it would is if this photography couple refused to take pictures of any gays, period, in any context. But by all indications, that's not what's going on here.

    They are, by the reports I've read, not discriminating against individuals for who they are. They do not want to take part in covering an *act* or *event* that they morally object to. Big difference.


    It's not a big difference; it's a distinction without a difference. A straight interracial couple can sue a photographer for refusing to cover their marriage, so why can't a gay couple sue a photographer for refusing to cover their marriage?

    At any rate, the "act" defense is a poor defense, in my view. Why couldn't a segregationist claim he's not against Black people, he's against the act of Black people eating at his lunch counter?

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete


  23. You just happen to think that any Christians who run a business and refuse to take part in a gay marriage ceremony should be sued, punished, and have their possessions taken away. No indications of insincerity there, no sir.

    Again, you resort to ascribing bad motive, as if that were relevant.

    I am not in any particular way in favor of Christian businesses being sued; I merely believe the right of gay men and women to sue for redress in civil court is more fundamental than the right of the Christian business to refuse them service.

    What's the alternative? That gay men and women be uniquely deprived of the right to bring civil suits? Please don't dodge this question. Let us know your full position on the matter - should gay men and women, uniquely among all other classes of United States citizens, be disallowed from suing on the basis of discrimination?

    ... Now those bastards may *kill* you, and your family. Fair point, fair point. But what do you expect, guys? But, according to my totally reasonable and not insane standard, you totally have the right to act on your conscience there. There's just a cost associated with it. What, you don't want there to be a COST associated with acting on your conscience?

    Again, I'd argue that comparing the situation of the photographer taken to court with the situation of the Korean dissident is being slightly hyperbolic.

    But besides that, yes, the world being the world, and freedom being a zero sum game, it's always possible you're going to have to pay for having convictions that are on the losing side. You shouldn't have to pay with your life or your livelihood, IMO, which is why I'd be in favor of some tort reform. But if the law of the land breaks against your freedom when it's pitted against another freedom, you might have to pay some slight cost to exercise that freedom.

    And here's the thing: in a democracy, when freedoms conflict with each other, somebody's going to have to pay. Either you're going to have to pay for your conscience or the gay couple is going to have to pay for theirs. The question for the courts is, what's better for society: if we make the gay couples pay (by allowing them to be legally discriminated against) or if we make the businessman pay (damages)? Having businesses free to hang "we don't service homosexual marriages" on their doors, or having homosexual couples free to sue for discrimination?

    ReplyDelete
  24. "But I'd be willing to be corrected. Please, cite all these cases of armed men showing up to collect on delinquent debts owed in civil court."

    Well, at some point some sort of law enforcement officer will show up to make an arrest. I'm willing to bet that officer will be armed.

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  25. I'm not against a gay couple filing a civil suit against a photographer who refuses to take pictures of their mock wedding. No, I'm completely in favor of that. They should have that right.

    I simply think each and every time they do so, the case should be immediately thrown out, and they should be fined 500 dollars for wasting the court's time.


    And do you think the same thing should happen every time an interracial couple sues for a photographer refusing to take pictures of their (in his opinion) mock wedding?

    And if not, explain why those two cases should differ in the eyes of the law.

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  26. Well, at some point some sort of law enforcement officer will show up to make an arrest. I'm willing to bet that officer will be armed.

    Could you cite an occassion of this happening?

    The only time I've ever heard of police officers getting involved in anything like that is when they are occasionally dispatched to remove squatters who refuse an eviction notice.

    I've never heard of a single incident of police officers being pulled off their beat to go knock on a door to collect damages owed in civil (i.e., not legal, i.e., not their jurisdiction) court.

    I would think the courts could do this stuff more efficiently by just freezing and/or seizing the assets of the person who refuses to pay. But that doesn't paint a dramatic enough picture to feed you guys' persecution complex, I guess...

    ReplyDelete
  27. "And do you think the same thing should happen every time an interracial couple sues for a photographer refusing to take pictures of their (in his opinion) mock wedding?"

    1.I think racism is wrong. You agree.

    2.I think same sex marriage is wrong. You agree.

    3.I think Christian participation in anything that seemingly condones same sex marriage is wrong. Honestly, not sure where you stand.

    4.I think a Christian remaining faithful to their Christian values as admirable, in spite of society's view. You seem think they're bigots.

    I'm confused. Same sex marriage is wrong, but so is opposing it?

    Eric

    ReplyDelete
  28. The Deuce writes,

    "Corresponding to this, Chad also thinks that sin is relative, and that "Christian morality" doesn't apply outside the church. So, "outside the church" it's not sinful or disordered to engage in homosexual sex or to conflate it with marriage, and he doesn't "have much of a problem with it."

    But this makes no sense. If "Christian morality" doesn't apply outside the Church, then by what means does Chad condemn the Russians?"



    The recurring theme is: How do you with any logical consistency, condemn, affirm, whatever, X for doing Y when you have ruled the standard applicable canons of judgment out of court before proceeding to do so?

    This particular drum is one many of us have been beating until people are sick of hearing it.

    You would think that by now those engaging in these antinomous behaviors (if I can use such a phrase to characterize the nonchalant assertion of propositions in contradiction with earlier stated and more foundational predicates) would be ashamed.

    But, as we have seen repeatedly demonstrated here, logical consistency, and even intellectual coherence, seems to mean very little to either fideists or postmodernists.

    Both offer up a Rortian shrug. They know, or feel what it is they want, are aware of their urges, so what more is to be discussed?

    Vague terminology and amphibolous formulations, the anthropomorphizing of reified or even hypostatized abstractions, are all just part of the tool kit of both.

    Need to change reality? Redefine, while uttering the magic words and it will become, socially at least, real.

    I think that many here have probably thought, like the Medievals who first grappled with the concepts of classical philosophy, that the perennial problem of universals was in some sense, The Philosophical Question.

    It never seems to disappear certainly.

    Every time a fideist or a postmodernist opens its mouth (and to an outsider like myself they seem much the same) they reinforce the conclusion that it is indeed The Question.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Eric:

    I think Christians have to be prepared to pay the cost for holding to their convictions.

    I don't tend to agree that the best way the Christian photographer could promote his views is to refuse to cover a gay wedding. But that again gets into my personal "pick your battles; attack the enemy where he is weakest; get the fish in the boat before you clean it" theory of evangelism.

    However, should the Christian photographer feel it is his Christian duty to refuse to cover the wedding, I think he should absolutely follow his convictions and refuse to do it.

    But I also think the gay couple should have the right to sue him, and that if the gay couple wins, the Christian should pay the damages the court awards.

    This is something every other persecuted group understands, but that Conservative Christians don't seem to get. If you engage in activism for an unpopular cause, you have to lose a lot before you can win, and you have to accept your losses not just graciously but willingly.

    The freedom riders knew they would be beaten and put in jail for a long time before anything changed, and they quietly and nonviolently accepted this, and gave their bodies and souls over to fighting for what they thought was right. And it was their quiet conviction and dignity in accepting the punishment of even unjust laws that brought around the general public to their position. The fact that they demonstrated that they were willing to pay an unjustly high price for doing what was right was ultimately persuasive even to many who initially disagreed.

    But Conservative Christians somehow feel it's their birth right to never have to suffer, even slightly, for what they believe.

    To make juries start to decide matters in your favor, a few of you might have to graciously accept the loss of your livelihood to stand up for your beliefs. Seeing that in the public square might make the Christian plight seem sympathetic, rather than hilariously hyperbolic.

    ReplyDelete
  30. @Chad Handley:

    "Why should gay men and women uniquely be disallowed from filing civil suits? . . . [S]hould gay men and women, uniquely among all other classes of United States citizens, be disallowed from suing on the basis of discrimination?"

    Who's being hyperbolic now? The NMHRA has included "sexual orientation" as a protected classification ever since 2003; nothing in this case threatened to change that. The essential question before the court was what does and doesn't constitute legally compensable "discrimination" under that law—and it didn't even reach that full question because the defendants apparently didn't argue (as I think they should have) that they didn't count as a "public accommodation" for the purposes of that law.

    "Again, it's a zero sum game. . . . [I]n a democracy, when freedoms conflict with each other, somebody's going to have to pay. Either you're going to have to pay for your conscience or the gay couple is going to have to pay for theirs."

    Apparently not in this case; the couple simply went and hired another photographer. What "freedom" of theirs was thereby curtailed, and in what way would they have had to "pay for [their] conscience" if the court had ruled against them? (Court costs and attorney fees? Everybody risks that in bringing a suit at all.)

    @Crude:

    "By all accounts I've read, it's not that the couple refused to take pictures of 'gay men' period. They refused to take pictures in the particular context they were being asked to - a gay mock-wedding."

    Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in the thread. The studio actually made that argument in court and I think it should have carried the day.

    I also, as I mentioned above, think the defendants should have questioned their classification as a "public accommodation," which is a classification that's become frighteningly large over the years in some jurisdictions. I don't know whether they did so before the trial court, but they didn't before the state supreme court.

    Here's a law review article from a couple of years ago that I think does a nice job on many of the issues, including especially the public accommodation and First Amendment analysis. (Tony touched on some of the relevant points in an earlier post as well.)

    ReplyDelete
  31. " the world being the world, and freedom being a zero sum game"

    At one time I thought I knew a fair amount of political philosophy, I certainly spent enough time in the classroom on it, but this particular doctrine, "freedom being a zero sum game" not "the world being the world" that is, seems offered up as conditioning all subsequent analysis with an air of such casual certainty that it must constitute a major premise of current sociological or anthropological analysis.

    Perhaps Chad, or someone else espousing this doctrine could, and in their own words, explain the logical structure and the analysis behind this proposition.


    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  32. @Chad Handley:

    "The freedom riders knew they would be beaten and put in jail for a long time before anything changed, and they quietly and nonviolently accepted this, and gave their bodies and souls over to fighting for what they thought was right. . . .

    But Conservative Christians somehow feel it's their birth right to never have to suffer, even slightly, for what they believe."

    That's because it is. It was also the freedom riders' birthright, and the people who beat them were violating it. Perhaps "right" isn't the word you want here.

    And by the way, in what world does taking one's case all the way to the Supreme Court of the State of New Mexico not constitute suffering (nonviolently) for one's beliefs? Or are you saying the photographers should have been willing to undergo physical beatings at the hands of raging mobs of gay activists?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Well, (speaking anecdotally from what I hear from my lawyer brother until I have time to research it later) I'm told that's exactly what happens. I'm told successful litigants in civil court almost never receive the full damages they were awarded in court. I'm told the method is to pay it off at the most minimal rate possible, and that if you do so, there's nothing the courts can do to you.

    No, even by what you just said, that's not 'exactly' what happens. "Oh, they never receive the full damages" and "You can just pay a minimal amount, and if you do that, the courts can't do anything" do not cash out to 'You can just refuse to pay and that's that.'

    Are you really under the impression that paying civil damages is optional? The only situation where it gets within that ballpark is 'If you're broke.'

    But I'd be willing to be corrected. Please, cite all these cases of armed men showing up to collect on delinquent debts owed in civil court.

    You mean 'police'?

    You know, Chad, throughout this thread you've repeatedly asked me 'Please cite evidence that...' And when I cite evidence, you go quiet. So, let's turn this one around.

    Please cite evidence showing that, if you have assets and have a civil judgment against you, that you won't be compelled to pay. Do that - or admit you can't - and then I'll happily provide evidence showing that the police can be used to seize assets.

    It's not a big difference; it's a distinction without a difference. A straight interracial couple can sue a photographer for refusing to cover their marriage, so why can't a gay couple sue a photographer for refusing to cover their marriage?

    But neither of us is against a gay couple suing the photographer, Chad. I just happen to think the case should always be thrown out of court in this situation, and the couple should be fined. According to your logic, I fully support the rights of gay couples to sue in these cases. We're talking about something else.

    At any rate, the "act" defense is a poor defense, in my view. Why couldn't a segregationist claim he's not against Black people, he's against the act of Black people eating at his lunch counter?

    In the case of the photographers, they've stated they're entirely willing to take pictures of gay men and various other contexts. So once again, your comparison fails.

    Again, you resort to ascribing bad motive, as if that were relevant.

    It's entirely relevant. At this point, I'm pretty much saying that all indications are you're insincere in your presentation of yourself and your beliefs. That's the nice way of putting it.

    Please don't dodge this question. Let us know your full position on the matter - should gay men and women, uniquely among all other classes of United States citizens, be disallowed from suing on the basis of discrimination?

    As I already said, I'm entirely in favor of their bringing whatever civil suit they want. It should simply be thrown out, and they should be fined. Again, according to your logic, I am therefore in favor of gay men and women being able to file civil suits.

    Again, I'd argue that comparing the situation of the photographer taken to court with the situation of the Korean dissident is being slightly hyperbolic.

    It's a good thing I didn't compare the situation, then, just the stupid reasoning. You're the one who said that 'right to act out your conscience' is not denied just because of there being state penalty. So I showed what logically followed given that statement. If you feel embarrassed at having said that, that's your problem, not mine.

    ReplyDelete
  34. And do you think the same thing should happen every time an interracial couple sues for a photographer refusing to take pictures of their (in his opinion) mock wedding?

    I think if a photographer is willing to take pictures of people of any race, in just about any other context, 'racial discrimination' at that point has become a vastly harder claim to make.

    But you know what, Chad? Here's one out of your playbook: 85% of people in America think the Christians should have the right to turn down the job. You've lost, Chad. Give this one up - it's a losing battle.

    Or wait, let me guess: this is different. Overwhelming opposition only SOMETIMES means you should stop fighting a battle.

    And just to cap all of this off: the situation in New Mexico was not merely the bringing of a civil suit. They were fined 7000 dollars by the state.

    ReplyDelete
  35. So, Chad thinks that being against gay marriage if you're not explicitly a Christian who opposes it on "scriptural grounds" indicates that you must be bigoted. Apparently, there's no valid reason at all, outside the Bible, that anyone could oppose it.

    Coming late to the conversation, you must have missed the part where Chad said, explicitly, in response to a direct question, that Chad does not feel that mere opposition to homosexual marriage makes one a bigot.

    Chad said that in an atmosphere where a high percentage of Russians display some very heinous attitudes towards gays, that there might be an atmosphere of bigotry towards gays in Russia, and that gay opposition to gay marriage might be owed more to that bigotry than to any principle.

    Thus, Chad refused to concede to Crude's point that "Russia was doing something right" with regards to the gay marriage fight.

    Chad can't condemn them for failing to uphold Christian kindness and the dignity of persons while simultaneously claiming that Christian morality doesn't apply outside the Church when he doesn't want it to.

    Chad never said that Christian morality doesn't apply outside the Church. Chad said that in a secular democracy, Christian morality can't be the basis of civil law. Chad believes based on Scriptural teaching that fornication is wrong, however Chad doesn't therefore think fornication should be a criminal offense, because Chad is not a theocratic lunatic.

    In fact, given Chad's advice that the Church should just stand down on homosexuality because it makes them unpopular in America, he should be advising the Church in Russia to just go along to get along with the Russian people when it comes to suppressing homosexuals, which is *far* more popular there than "gay rights" are here!

    Chad explained that there is evidence that opposition to gay marriage in Russia is motivated by bigotry, and that as Christians we can't tolerate or reward as virtuous any type of bigotry even if it ends up working in our favor on some issue. That would be swatting at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

    1) Relationships based on gay sex are manifestly good and ordered and right, and equal to marriage, and so should be recognized as such by all objective, right-thinking people.

    2) Anyone who disagrees with that is a bigot.


    If The Deuce would have bothered to read Chad's statements, he would have no doubt learned that Chad denies both 1 and 2.

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  36. eesh, chad,

    I think you're going too far here. This whole, "buck up and pick yourselves up by your bootstraps" shtick is a little high and mighty. It's also an ad hominem in the context of the argument. The issue is not that the gay couple sued, I think, but that they won. Everybody here seems to think that them winning is a clear example of an injustice. Apparently since they are Christians, they are also supposed to meekly bow their heads an accept an injustice? I don't mean to demean you, but this seems like a clear-cut case of self-righteousness on your part. You've opted to win the argument by chiding everyone for getting all uppity over this, well you get to trot away unscathed because you are, after all, playing for the 'winning team'. It would help to stick to the argument at hand.

    Also, I can't do this without wagging a finger at Crude, too. Your sarcastic mode of expression is hardly going to be fruitful. It's also a little cringe-inducing, I think. I imagine it's provoking Chad into taking on this high and mighty persona.

    -matt

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  37. Chad would like to add that a Russian participant in the conversation chimed in to support Chad's suspicions on Russian attitudes, and confirmed that Russian opposition to gay marriage was motivated more by bigotry than anything else, and was promptly ignored for presenting inconvenient truths.

    ReplyDelete
  38. "Here's a law review article from a couple of years ago that I think does a nice job on many of the issues, including especially the public accommodation and First Amendment analysis. (Tony touched on some of the relevant points in an earlier post as well.)

    August 29, 2013 at 12:25 PM"

    The phrase "public accommodation" has been noticeably missing in these discussions. It has been to the best of my knowledge the critical conditioning concept in both practice, and until recently, theory.

    However, the progressive assault is more generally on the private as private; and as we know, the definition and scope and even the "legitimacy" of the private has been continually under siege by leftist activists.

    This fact should be unremarkable since they are in fact, Marxists in their anthropology.

    I think that if you are a reader of law school articles you may have even seen a discussion or two as to whether there is a substantive right to be free to choose a marriage partner of, say, the same ethnicity, should the government claim an interest in managing social development in a more blending manner.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Chad:
    You do see, don't you, that in the name of freedom you're isolating a particular class and depriving them of a freedom everyone else has?

    Crude:
    In this case, your argument doesn't even get off the ground. The only possible way it would is if this photography couple refused to take pictures of any gays, period, in any context. But by all indications, that's not what's going on here.

    What's more, he's incoherent, because a Church that refuses to perform gay weddings is "depriving them of a freedom everyone else has" just as much as the photographer who refuses to photograph gay weddings (to the extent that "having everyone treat my activities as if they were identical to someone else's activities" is a legitimate "freedom"). So he's already denying religious freedom to act on "scriptural grounds" here, and if he were consistent, he'd be advocating that churches be fined for teaching against homosexuality and refusing to perform gay weddings (or maybe he already does advocate that).

    Anyhow, note that Chad is appealing to *moral* grounds here. He's saying that Christian photographers should be fined for upholding their faith because it's *objectively bad and unfair* to "deprive" gays of "a freedom everyone else has."

    His whole argument hinges on the notion that gay marriage is objectively equal to marriage, and that not treating it as such is objectively bad and should be punished, and that this should trump peoples' religious freedom to act on the belief that gay marriage is wrong, which he paradoxically pretends to believe himself.

    So, as he sees it, gay marriage is wrong "on scriptural grounds" in some vague, squishy, non-binding way, but it's not really truly objectively wrong like "depriving gays of a freedom everyone else has."

    Or, gay marriage is "wrong" as a matter of empty rhetoric, but what's *actually* wrong is actually believing that gay marriage is, like, actually wrong.

    Oh, and note how this isn't about being "nice" or "popular" anymore. He's quite okay with meanness, where it comes to the state punishing Christians for acting in accordance with their beliefs. It's not about being treated equally either. He thinks some religious people shouldn't have the "same freedom everyone else has" to act according to their conscience, so that gays can have the "same freedom everyone else has" to have their "weddings" treated the same as actual weddings by everyone else.

    In other words, some peoples' religious freedoms should be treated as *not* equally legitimate as others by the government, so that the government can force everyone to treat gay weddings as equally legitimate to other weddings.

    One of the "freedoms everyone else has" must give way to the other, and the religious freedom he wants to be treated as less equal is the freedom to act according to convictions he pretends to share, unlike the belief in the equality of gay marriage, which is really does share.

    So a guy who believes gay marriage is morally right doesn't want anyone opposing it or teaching that it's morally wrong. So what else is new?

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  40. Blogger Chad Handley said...

    Chad would like to add that a Russian participant in the conversation chimed in to support Chad's suspicions on Russian attitudes, and confirmed that Russian opposition to gay marriage was motivated more by bigotry than anything else, and was promptly ignored for presenting inconvenient truths.

    August 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM"


    1. How would you know he was actually ignored?

    2. How would you know why he was, if he in fact was?

    3. "Bigotry", is "wrong" on what moral grounds according to Chad?

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  41. If The Deuce would have bothered to read Chad's statements, he would have no doubt learned that Chad denies both 1 and 2.

    I read your statements, and concluded that you're a confused liar based on their contradiction with other statements and on what you actually advocate.

    ReplyDelete
  42. (By the way, in case anyone wants to read the actual ruling, here it is.)

    ReplyDelete
  43. "This is something every other persecuted group understands, but that Conservative Christians don't seem to get. If you engage in activism for an unpopular cause, you have to lose a lot before you can win, and you have to accept your losses not just graciously but willingly."

    Well, I'm not complaining on a gay rights blog Chad. I do accept persecution graciously when amongst the secularists. It's a different matter when a Christian like yourself seems to imply we're all bigots fighting a pointless battle on a Christian blog.

    There's just no way around this. You utilize the same arguments/tactics as a Christian claiming there's nothing immoral about homosexuality. The annoying thing is, you then claim that homosexuality is immoral. Then you switch to secular utilitarian Chad and call us all bigots.

    Once again, I'm confused.

    ReplyDelete
  44. And do you think the same thing should happen every time an interracial couple sues for a photographer refusing to take pictures of their (in his opinion) mock wedding?

    Yes. That's not even discrimination based on race. He's refusing to take a picture of BOTH a white and a black person. It's just a decision on what he does and does not want to photograph.

    Refusing to take a picture of certain classes of people and refusing to take a picture of certain events are not the same thing.

    Would you agree that the photographer should be sued for refusing to photograph an abortion?

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  45. Please cite evidence showing that, if you have assets and have a civil judgment against you, that you won't be compelled to pay.

    You might be compelled to pay, but not at gunpoint. Again, the court can just freeze and/or seize your assets. No gun required.

    In the case of the photographers, they've stated they're entirely willing to take pictures of gay men and various other contexts. So once again, your comparison fails.

    And the segregationist could (and did, FYI) say he's willing to serve Blacks in other contexts, like out of the back of the store, just not at the counter with white folks.

    So, once again, your attempt to avoid the obvious, direct comparison fails.

    It should simply be thrown out, and they should be fined. Again, according to your logic, I am therefore in favor of gay men and women being able to file civil suits.

    Do you think some law has to be written whereby it will always be thrown out, or are you just saying you hope juries decide to throw all of them out? Because if the former, then you're de facto arguing that gays shouldn't beballowed to successfully sue for discrimination as a matter of law.

    I think if a photographer is willing to take pictures of people of any race, in just about any other context, 'racial discrimination' at that point has become a vastly harder claim to make.

    I don't really think so, if only one race (or one grouping of races) is not allowed to be photographed doing the same act that all other races are allowed to be photographed for. The guy doesn't refuse to photograph weddings, he just refuses to photograph interracial weddings. That means it's still the racial make-up of the couple that is the basis for the refusal, not their act.

    But you know what, Chad? Here's one out of your playbook: 85% of people in America think the Christians should have the right to turn down the job. You've lost, Chad. Give this one up - it's a losing battle.

    For Pete's sake, I agree the guy should have the right to turn down the job. I just don't believe he should be immune from being sued over turning it down, or that the laws should be written guaranteeing that he'll always win if he is sued.

    Or wait, let me guess: this is different. Overwhelming opposition only SOMETIMES means you should stop fighting a battle.

    Well, as demonstrated this line of questioning is irrelevant, but yes, I already admitted as much in the case of abortion. Some unwinnable wars are worth fighting.

    And just to cap all of this off: the situation in New Mexico was not merely the bringing of a civil suit. They were fined 7000 dollars by the state.

    That seems reasonable.

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  46. @Chad Handley:

    "For Pete's sake, I agree the guy should have the right to turn down the job."

    And the Supreme Court of the State of New Mexico says that, under the NMHRA, he has no such right.

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  47. Chad:

    And do you think the same thing should happen every time an interracial couple sues for a photographer refusing to take pictures of their (in his opinion) mock wedding?

    Here's a better question: Do you think the same thing should happen every time a porn producer sues a photographer for refusing to shoot a scene for them, when they're willing to film weddings for other people?

    Why, no, of course you don't believe that, because porn shoots aren't weddings. You wouldn't want the photographer fined even if the pornographer called the shoot a "wedding," or even if the shoot actually involved legal marriage vows followed by sex on camera.

    And that's because those things aren't the same as real weddings, or they contain other rightly objectionable factors, and like any reasoning person, you don't think a photographer should be forced to pretend differently, or that the government should endorse such a claim.

    But you do think that gay "weddings" are legitimate weddings (and that homosexual "marriage" is real marriage), absolutely equal to any other, and that the government should therefore endorse this view, and the fact that you even asked this question demonstrates that fact, as does every position you've taken throughout this debate.

    Your claim to believe down in your heart that gay marriage is illegitimate is fraudulent empty rhetoric, which directly contradicts your public positions and the rationales you give for them.

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  48. The Deuce,

    Chad's position is not really very hard to understand:

    1. Chad believes Christianity is true.

    2. Chad nevertheless believes that Christianity should not be enforced by the State.

    If a proposed law has nothing to recommend its passage besides being Christian, even if I believe the law is true and good, I would oppose such a law being imposed on people who don't share my beliefs.

    Personally, I'm unpersuaded by secular arguments against the legality of gay marriage, thus I don't think there should be a law against it, even though as a Christian I think it's wrong.

    I'd also be against blasphemy laws, laws against working on the Sabbath, laws criminalizing pre-marital sex, and laws outlawing the practice of religions other than Christianity.

    My position is only confusing if you assume, as so many of you do, that anyone who claims not to agree with banning gay marriage for any reason must secretly think gay marriage is the summum bonum.

    It is possible, you guys would be shocked to learn, to simultaneously hold that:

    1. Act A is against Christian principles.

    and

    2. Act A should not be prohibited by the government.

    Nothing could be easier to understand, unless you made your mind up a long time ago that anyone who disagrees with you is evil.

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  49. You might be compelled to pay, but not at gunpoint. Again, the court can just freeze and/or seize your assets. No gun required.

    I didn't think your position could get any more ridiculous than it was, but there it is. So now religious rights aren't being forcibly violated even when you have your house taken from you, and your family left destitute and starving. Yeah, that's not force at all, no siree, as long as there's no "gun" involved.

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  50. "Personally, I'm unpersuaded by secular arguments against the legality of gay marriage, thus I don't think there should be a law against it, even though as a Christian I think it's wrong."

    Fair enough, but that also shouldn't leave you feeling justified in claiming those opposed are bigots. Which if you haven't done directly, you've implied.

    Eric

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  51. At least secular utilitarian Chad implied it. Wasn't talking to you Christian Chad. Sorry.

    Eric

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  52. "But Conservative Christians somehow feel it's their birth right to never have to suffer, even slightly, for what they believe."

    Ha ha ha, what the heck do you think we're doing? You think it's fun being called a bigot for maintaining Christian values publicly? Sure you don't. Granted, I'm not being fed to lions but it's definitely no fun being called a homophobic bigot.

    Most days I wake up wishing Christ had said in gospel so and so "blessed are the homosexuals, because their sexual union shall exemplify love." Alas, no such luck.

    We could of course adopt your technique and avoid all sorts of persecution. In fact, we should go all Joel Osteen on it and avoid talking about sin altogether. Sin is a fairly unpopular topic these days. The subject won't be filling up the pews, that's for sure. That's why we're here isn't it?

    Eric

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  53. If a proposed law has nothing to recommend its passage besides being Christian, even if I believe the law is true and good, I would oppose such a law being imposed on people who don't share my beliefs.

    You're a fraud, Chad, and a fideist. First of all, if a law is true and good, then that's a reason besides it being Christian to recommend its passage. You advocate the position you do because you don't actually believe that the concept of marriage endorsed within Christianity (and nearly all non-Christian cultures) is true and good. You think it's subjective and arbitrary, and therefore has nothing objective to recommend it.

    2. Act A should not be prohibited by the government.

    But note that we're not talking about the government prohibiting some vice. We're talking about the government endorsing the notion that gay marriage is equal to marriage, and punishing those who do not behave accordingly.

    In fact, the falsehood that "gay marriage" is identical to marriage has nothing to recommend its passage besides being an obsession of left-wing American secularism, and you're quite willing to prohibit and punish "vices" that violate *that* belief.

    You've made it quite clear that you believe that the equality of "gay marriage" is somehow the objective, true, default position, which should be endorsed and enforced by the government, and that beliefs to the contrary are subjective with nothing objective or rational to recommend them. Again, that makes you a fideist who doesn't genuinely believe your so-called "personal Christian beliefs."

    Contrast this with your position on Russia, and your opposition to what you call their "bigotry." There is no more "objective" and "secular" argument against them passing "bigoted" laws than there is for laws against gay marriage. If that's what they feel like doing for no reason other than they think queers are gross, then hey, why not? You can't oppose their policy on the grounds that their "bigotry" is un-Christian, because you've already stated that violating Christianity is not grounds for public policy.

    No, you oppose their "bigotry" on religious grounds, but not Christian ones. You oppose it because it violates your real, public religion, which is the left-wing American zeitgeist, and its newfound belief in the objective equality of gay sexual relationships with marriage.

    You should repent or leave the Church. You don't believe that Christianity is true - not true true like the supposed equality of gay marriage and the left-wing secularist moral narrative. You're lying to yourself and others.

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  54. The Deuce:

    I didn't think your position could get any more ridiculous than it was, but there it is. So now religious rights aren't being forcibly violated even when you have your house taken from you, and your family left destitute and starving. Yeah, that's not force at all, no siree, as long as there's no "gun" involved.

    You're distorting my position. I never claimed there was no force involved, I just said such force fell short of armed thugs showing up at your door.

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  55. Eric:

    Fair enough, but that also shouldn't leave you feeling justified in claiming those opposed are bigots. Which if you haven't done directly, you've implied.

    I don't understand how I can be implying something I expressly deny.

    The only case where I suspected bigotry was in the case of the Russian poll data, but I had evidence for that conclusion and a native Russian later confirmed it.

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  56. "I don't understand how I can be implying something I expressly deny."

    Because you expressly imply it.

    Eric

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  57. Why, no, of course you don't believe that, because porn shoots aren't weddings.

    I get that you, as a (probably) natural law Catholic don't think gay weddings are weddings.

    Similarly, according to whatever racist views he might hold, a racist photographer might not think interracial marriages are weddings.

    But in some states, that gay weddings are, for all legal intents and purposes, real marriages, is a matter of law. And Christians are subject to the law.

    So, if the Christian doesn't want to work the wedding, he might have to pay a fine, and he might have to be sued and pay damages. I don't think that's some great tyranny. I think that's considerably less tyrannical than saying the state has to impose Christian views on marriage on the unChristian portion of the electorate.

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  58. Matt,

    Also, I can't do this without wagging a finger at Crude, too. Your sarcastic mode of expression is hardly going to be fruitful. It's also a little cringe-inducing, I think. I imagine it's provoking Chad into taking on this high and mighty persona.

    Fruitful? In what way? I'm saying Chad has been insincere. What started out as 'golly gee whiz, fellow Christians, I think we may need to change our strategy here a touch. Maybe if we change the culture we can make more progress down the road against gay marriage! For now, let's back off.' to 'Actually I don't have a problem with gay marriage. You know, so long as it's outside of the church.' to 'People who refuse to take photographs of gay 'commitment ceremonies' should be punished for their acts, and they should welcome that punishment, because hey, Christians sure like to be oppressed. It's suffering for God, so it's good. Stop whining and endure it, bigot.'

    So yeah, my patience is at an end. I'm not interested in having a fake discussion with someone who couldn't be giving off more vibes of dishonesty and insincerity if he was running for office. The idea that this conversation could have been 'fruitful' if I pretended Chad was coming across as quite sincere, and further acted like his arguments were anything more than pretty desperate, is something I reject. I believe in politeness and civility with people of different views, but there's only so much BS a person should take before calling someone out.

    Not every conversation between two people can potentially be both reasonable, sincere and fruitful. When someone's playing the game of 'try to discourage opposition to gay marriage with a false front, and when that doesn't work, start playing the bigot card', it was never possible to begin with. If you disagree, that's fine, but I stand by what I said.

    I will say one thing, though. The fact that Chad is playing the game he is? That rather gives off some incredible lack of confidence on the 'inevitability' of the success of gay marriage and related views on this point. It may take ten years, it may take a hundred, it may take more - but the very idea of gay marriage is going to be rightly once again regarded as a joke in time, and not just by Christians. Or "bigots".

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  59. My guess is that if we had less of a social welfare state and more of a libertarian polity, one that did not require that barely crypto, crypto-fascist "commitment to a shared fate" thingy that the slightly closeted left finds so emotionally rewarding, then many, though not all would have a more indifferent attitude toward what homosexuals do.

    But of course, a libertarian polity and libertarian indifference, is the last thing the social equity crowd wants.

    Christians are right to feel put upon. Moral relativist cynics pantomiming Christian precepts, are using that charade in order to bleed Christian families of their liberty and their life options.

    Since this is done in the name of "social justice" or equity, it behooves one to ask exactly what underlies the principles that putatively inform this system of "justice".

    It cannot be individual liberty, the classical "negative liberty" of the Constitution, now, can it ...

    And Christians obviously already recognize that they face a mailed fist of compulsory participation, without being informed of it by the giddy and giggling.

    What puzzles observers like myself are the pseudo-moral tones and judgements issued in defense of these state compulsions by those who profess to either believe in no objective moral values, or none but the arbitrary will and command of a divine law maker.

    It's one thing for someone coming from that perspective to say, "We have the hammer now, and you will just have to live under it". That would be entirely consistent with their premisses.

    But it's intellectually stupefying to watch people who are on record as saying there are no objective moral values, or that the only objective moral obligations are found in divine commands, go on to say or to imply that disrespecting the compulsory social flavor of the day, is somehow wrong or unfair.

    How comical and intellectually pathetic a spectacle it is at one and the same time.

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  60. Scott said...

    Actually the photography studio in the New Mexico case argued (I think correctly) that it wasn't picking and choosing on the basis of sexual orientation. It didn't refuse to photograph gay people; it refused to photograph same-sex weddings, because the owner was morally opposed to them.

    Then Chad said...

    "What if he refused to photograph interracial weddings, because he was morally opposed to them? Same thing?"

    This seems to be saying refusing to work at a same sex marriage ceremony is comparable to refusing to work a interracial wedding. One case involving a racist bigoted photographer and the other a homophobic bigoted photographer.

    Once again, I'd be fine with this if you didn't claim to hold the opinion that homosexuality is immoral.

    Rather than commenting on the serious injustice of the courts ruling, you choose to comment on the thin, skinned, conservative Christians (a.k.a bigots). Then address the uncontested issue of the right of homosexuals to file civil suits.

    Eric

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  61. Malcolm:
    I realize you don't think it is equivalent but my question is why is it not similar if by your own reckoning handedness is merely a different quality yet there were and still are many social taboos about it? Perhaps you think homosexual orientation is "different but not evil" and it is the violation of sexual customs in expressing the orientation that is wrong. In a similar manner a person could have no enmity against left-handed people and still insist they only use their right hand because it is customary.

    Btw, none of my arguments about handedness are meant to defend ambidextrous people, who are obviously crazy wicked. :)

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  62. The only case where I suspected bigotry was in the case of the Russian poll data, but I had evidence for that conclusion and a native Russian later confirmed it.

    You've provided no evidence whatsoever of such, nor have you even told us what you mean by "bigotry." Furthermore, in order for Russian opposition to gay marriage to be bigoted, even if they have no reason for it but personal whim, requires the premise that the equality of gay marriage is some sort of objective, manifest fact and the default position - a "fact" that directly contradicts the belief that it's wrong, which you dishonestly claim to share (It also contradicts all of human history).

    I get that you, as a (probably) natural law Catholic don't think gay weddings are weddings.

    I'm actually not Catholic, but that's not relevant. What is relevant is that your position entails that gay marriages *are* marriages as a matter of objective fact, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

    I don't think that's some great tyranny. I think that's considerably less tyrannical than saying the state has to impose Christian views on marriage on the unChristian portion of the electorate.

    It can only be tyrannical for the state to recognize the "Christian" (actually nearly universal) view on marriage if that view is false. Again, your position entails that that view is false.

    It's also doubly dishonest, since you think the state should still impose the pro-gay-marriage agenda in areas where the majority oppose it (such as the 85% who don't think photographers should be punished for refusing to photograph gay weddings).

    Now let's see here. If you think that it's tyrannical for the "Christian" view regarding gay marriage to be "imposed" when most people disagree with it, but you also think it's tyrannical for it to be "imposed" when most people agree with it (which would make it not, you know, an imposition), then the only way to explain that is that you must think that the secularist left-wing view of gay marriage (which has existed for about 5 minutes) is the objective, manifest truth, to be endorsed by right-thinking peoples even if opposed by the majority, unless it can be somehow disproven. Hell, you're practically a natural law theorist yourself - for the other side!

    Which, again, implies that your professed Christian beliefs are phony, contradicting your actual beliefs about marriage as they do.

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  63. You're a fraud, Chad, and a fideist. First of all, if a law is true and good, then that's a reason besides it being Christian to recommend its passage. You advocate the position you do because you don't actually believe that the concept of marriage endorsed within Christianity (and nearly all non-Christian cultures) is true and good. You think it's subjective and arbitrary, and therefore has nothing objective to recommend it.

    I believe Buddhism is false. I believe it would be a good thing if every Buddhist converted to Christianity.

    I would not support a law requiring all Buddhists to convert to Christianity.

    Is this really that hard to understand?

    We're talking about the government endorsing the notion that gay marriage is equal to marriage, and punishing those who do not behave accordingly.

    It's not punishing everyone who doesn't behave accordingly, it's merely requiring that, in states where same sex marriage is recognized by the law, any business owner must also recognize it.

    If you privately don't want to recognize it, nobody's going to force you.

    You've made it quite clear that you believe that the equality of "gay marriage" is somehow the objective, true, default position, which should be endorsed and enforced by the government, and that beliefs to the contrary are subjective with nothing objective or rational to recommend them.

    I think natural law arguments offer good, rational, philosophical justification for opposing gay marriage. However, I don't think natural law arguments are persuasive in the context of American jurisprudence. Thus, I believe those who hold that gay marriage is morally wrong for natural law reasons are perfectly rationally justified in doing so, however, I think those who think that this philosophical argument is sufficient for making gay marriage illegal go too far.

    Again, I think the philosophical arguments for the truth of Christianity are rational and persuasive, but I don't think that gives us grounds to say the State should enforce Christianity as law.

    Believing in the separation of Church and State does not make me a fideist.

    (continued)

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  64. There is no more "objective" and "secular" argument against them passing "bigoted" laws than there is for laws against gay marriage. If that's what they feel like doing for no reason other than they think queers are gross, then hey, why not? You can't oppose their policy on the grounds that their "bigotry" is un-Christian, because you've already stated that violating Christianity is not grounds for public policy.

    You show no signs of even being willing to understand my comments on Russia, despite my repeated attempts to clarify them.

    I never said the law against gay marriage in Russia should be struck down because it's unChristian. I never said it should be struck down at all. I said Christians shouldn't hold that Russians are, in Crude's words, "doing something right" simply because their very likely bigoted views yielded a correct outcome. I said, and I believe, that it would be more Christian to believe in same sex marriage out of misplaced compassion than to oppose it out of well-targeted bigotry.

    I happen to believe in a separation of Church and State, and that is why I oppose the law here. Natural law arguments aren't persuasive in the public, political sphere, and arguments that depend on the truth of religion shouldn't enter into it. So, as a Christian and an American, I oppose such laws here.

    I don't know what Russia's constitution is, or even if they have one. I don't know if there is a state recognized Church or what its status is. Legally, as I said to Crude, if Russia's constitution (if such there be) doesn't forbid banning gay marriage, and if it won't impede the progress of the gospel for the Russian Church to push for the law, I don't have an issue with it.

    No, you oppose their "bigotry" on religious grounds, but not Christian ones. You oppose it because it violates your real, public religion, which is the left-wing American zeitgeist, and its newfound belief in the objective equality of gay sexual relationships with marriage.

    I don't oppose it at all, and I said as much to Crude. Two days ago.

    If you're going to publicly call somebody a liar, you might want to take the time to get your facts straight.

    You should repent or leave the Church. You don't believe that Christianity is true - not true true like the supposed equality of gay marriage and the left-wing secularist moral narrative. You're lying to yourself and others.

    Do you believe that Buddhism is false, and Christianity true?

    Because, according to your logic, if you do, then you should be in favor of a law outlawing the practice of Buddhism.

    And if you don't favor such a law, you must not really believe Christianity is true.

    Our conversation is sort of pointless, because I expressly deny what you accuse me of and explain to you clearly why your accusation is wrong, and you just call me a liar. If I' a liar then why keep talking to me about it? Not much point if you don't believe me when I repeatedly and consistently keep saying the same thing.

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  65. Crude:

    So yeah, my patience is at an end. I'm not interested in having a fake discussion with someone who couldn't be giving off more vibes of dishonesty and insincerity if he was running for office. The idea that this conversation could have been 'fruitful' if I pretended Chad was coming across as quite sincere, and further acted like his arguments were anything more than pretty desperate, is something I reject.

    Indeed. I'd say your tack has been about as fruitful as possible, seeing as how it broke through Chad's false front and forced him to reveal more of his *actual* position for everyone to see (He still hasn't quite admitted that 100% of it has been a charade, but it's obvious to everyone else by now). The "polite conversation" we'd be having if you hadn't done that would just be him continuing to bullshit everybody and argue under false pretenses, without his dishonesty or the actual premises of his argument being called out.

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  66. Fruitful? In what way? I'm saying Chad has been insincere. What started out as 'golly gee whiz, fellow Christians, I think we may need to change our strategy here a touch. Maybe if we change the culture we can make more progress down the road against gay marriage! For now, let's back off.' to 'Actually I don't have a problem with gay marriage. You know, so long as it's outside of the church.' to 'People who refuse to take photographs of gay 'commitment ceremonies' should be punished for their acts, and they should welcome that punishment, because hey, Christians sure like to be oppressed. It's suffering for God, so it's good. Stop whining and endure it, bigot.'

    What is insincere about the conjunction of those views (minus the bigot comments that you throw in that are not at all attributable to me in word or tone) given my positions that:

    1. Christianity is true.

    2. The state shouldn't enforce Christianity.

    I never said that Christians "should be punished" for standing up for their views. I said they should be prepared and willing to accept even unjust punishment for their view rather than whine and complain and seek to avoid it. I shouldn't have to inform followers of Christ that sometimes bearing unjust punishment is redemptive.

    There is nothing, absolutely nothing, insincere about believing:

    1. On Christian grounds, gay marriage is wrong.

    2. Mere opposition to gay marriage is not bigotry.

    3. Gay marriage should not be forbidden by the government.

    4. Christians who refuse to recognize gay marriages in states where it's legal should be willing to suffer the consequences.

    On the New Mexico case, my views are sincere and consistent:

    1. The photographer should obey his conscience and refuse the work.

    2. The gay couple should have the right to sue him in civil court.

    3. There should not be a law guaranteeing that gay couples who sue civilly for discrimination against recognition of their marriage automatically lose.

    4. If the gay couple is awarded damages, the Christian should pay it willingly.

    ReplyDelete
  67. @Chad Handley:

    "So, if the Christian [or, presumably, Jew or Muslim or Hindu or secular opponent of same-sex unions] doesn't want to work the wedding, he might have to pay a fine, and he might have to be sued and pay damages. I don't think that's some great tyranny. . . .

    It's not punishing everyone who doesn't behave accordingly, it's merely requiring that, in states where same sex marriage is recognized by the law, any business owner must also recognize it.

    If you privately don't want to recognize it, nobody's going to force you."

    Wow. At one fell swoop you've just turned every single business of any kind into a "public accommodation."

    So if a musician in New Mexico who performs at weddings turns down an offer to provide the music for a same-sex ceremony because he opposes such unions, you think he has no right to do that[*] and should therefore pay a fine?

    How about someone licensed to perform weddings, and refuses to perform one for a same-sex couple? "He can't do that! Fine the bastard"?

    How about a church or synagogue that refuses to allow its facilities to be rented for such a ceremony? It has no right to refuse and so should be fined if it does?

    It seems that in your world, pretty much the only place someone couldn't be "forced" to recognize a same-sex marriage would be in his or her own home. The moment they try to earn a living, that liberty vanishes.

    Are we seeing any "great tyranny" here yet?

    ----

    [*] Your repeated insistence that he should turn it down is of no relevance here. The court ruling with which you're agreeing says that he is not legally entitled, i.e., has no right, to turn it down.

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  68. @Chad Handley:

    "If the gay couple is awarded damages, the Christian should pay it willingly."

    Interesting. So you think the Christians in the Elane Photography case shouldn't have appealed the trial court's ruling?

    I assume you don't mean they should have been legally prevented from appealing. But if not, then what exactly do you mean?

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  69. I actually agree with Chad. Although, I usually apply it to abortion as well.

    We're driving away liberals with our open attack on the evil that is abortion.

    This is all about souls. The more people we're able to get into the church with love, the more we'll be able to educate on abortion and marriage.

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  70. Scott:

    Wow. At one fell swoop you've just turned every single business of any kind into a "public accommodation."

    I don't know the specifics of the law, so one shouldn't interpret my statements as if I were making an explicit legal case.

    Should the musician be punished automatically by the state for refusing to work the wedding? Probably not, but the gay couple should have the right to sue the musician and to take their chances in court without their being a statute saying that all such cases will end in a defeat for the gay couple.

    Here's the deal, though, I admit our tort system is kind of crazy, but we do live in a system where anybody can try to sue anybody for pretty much any crazy reason. And I don't think there should be a law saying gay couples can't do this, or that if they can, they'll always lose. All I'm saying.

    And obviously I believe in religious exceptions to the rule, and I think my statements to this point clearly imply that. If the guy refusing the ceremony owns a non-religious, drive-thru wedding chapel in Vegas, he probably should be subject to a suit. If the guy refusing to perform the service is a Catholic priest, he shouldn't.

    The court ruling with which you're agreeing says that he is not legally entitled, i.e., has no right, to turn it down.

    I don't know the facts of the case, but I'd say he doesn't have the legal right to turn it down. By that I mean, he has no right to turn down the work without opening himself up to a state fine and/or civil lawsuit.

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  71. "I actually agree with Chad."

    Well, with one of him, anyway. ;-)

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  72. 1. On Christian grounds, abortion is wrong.

    2. Mere opposition to abortion is not anti-women.

    3. Abortion should not be forbidden by the government.

    4. Christians who refuse to recognize abortion in states where it's legal should be willing to suffer the consequences.

    On a state by state case

    1. The physician should obey his conscience and refuse to perform an abortion.

    2. The woman should have the right to sue him in civil court.

    3. There should not be a law guaranteeing that women who sue civilly for unwillingness to perform an abortion.

    4. If the woman is awarded damages, the Christian physician should pay it willingly.

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  73. Interesting. So you think the Christians in the Elane Photography case shouldn't have appealed the trial court's ruling?

    I have no problem with them exhausting their legal options, but if they lose at the end of the day, they should willingly pay the fine.

    From a public relations standpoint, I just have a problem with Christians whining in the public square about their persecution and the tyranny of government thugs forcing them to pay extortion fees to the "gay mafia."

    If you lose, explain that you don't hate the couple in question, you merely think, as you stated eloquently previously, that what they're doing will deprive them of one day participating in the Beatific Vision and you love them too much to help them do that to themselves. Then pay the fine.

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  74. 1. The physician should obey his conscience and refuse to perform an abortion.

    2. The woman should have the right to sue him in civil court.

    3. There should not be a law guaranteeing that women who sue civilly for unwillingness to perform an abortion.

    4. If the woman is awarded damages, the Christian physician should pay it willingly.


    Pretty much.

    What do you think should happen?

    The woman shouldn't be allowed to sue?

    The doctor shouldn't pay if he loses in court?

    I guess I'm overly influenced by King's example here. I believe you can and should fight for your rights, but along the way you should graciously and in Christian love accept even unjust punishments for taking on that fight.

    You think it would be better for your cause for the government to refuse to allow the suit to be brought, or for the Christian doctor to refuse to pay the fine until his assets are seized?

    I guess I could see refusing to pay the fine as an extension of the protest, and I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as the Christian accepted the consequences in the spirit of Christ.

    I guess what I disagree with is the underlying notion I'm sensing that Christians should uniquely be allowed to ignore laws they don't agree with without consequence.

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  75. From a public relations standpoint, I just have a problem with Christians whining in the public square about their persecution and the tyranny of government thugs promoting abortion and giving ridiculous amounts of money to the "planned parenthood mafia"

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  76. "I guess what I disagree with is the underlying notion I'm sensing that Christians should uniquely be allowed to ignore laws they don't agree with without consequence."

    Agreed, we should stop fighting. It drives people away. Pay the fines and shut up about abortion. Stop the whining. We can't win that way.

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  77. We're driving away liberals with our open attack on the evil that is abortion.

    This is all about souls. The more people we're able to get into the church with love, the more we'll be able to educate on abortion and marriage.


    I just... I mean... I give up.

    Haven't I consistently and repeatedly said that some fights are worth fighting even if you can't win, even if they might cost you the war?

    And didn't I explicitly cite abortion as the paradigm example of such a fight?

    You guys don't really need me around to beat up a straw man of me.

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  78. Come on Chad, you're halfway there. Join me on the abortion issue.

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  79. Huh, I'm just taking our logic to it's conclusion. I don't understand. Strawman?

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  80. By fighting so hard against abortion we may be actually causing more abortions. It's undeniable

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  81. @Chad Handley:

    "I don't know the specifics of the law . . . "

    Whoa. Color me surprised.

    "I admit our tort system is kind of crazy, but we do live in a system where anybody can try to sue anybody for pretty much any crazy reason. And I don't think there should be a law saying gay couples can't do this, or that if they can, they'll always lose. All I'm saying.

    What does our "tort system" have to do with anything? This isn't a tort case. And as I've already said, nothing in this case keeps gays or anyone else from suing on any grounds, including the grounds that were already established by the law in question. Even had the court ruled against the plaintiffs, the result wouldn't have meant they hadn't been allowed to sue in the first place.

    Nor has anyone in this thread said that anyone, gay or otherwise, should be kept out of court altogether, and still less has anyone proposed a law prohibiting gay couples from doing so. The argument has been about the merits of this suit and the reasoning in the ruling(s).

    And no, that's not "all [you're] saying." You've expressly stated that "in states where same sex marriage is recognized by the law, any business owner must also recognize it."

    "I don't know the facts of the case . . . "

    You might want to Google it, then, and you should probably have done that before expressing your agreement with it. And I provided a link to the actual ruling further up the thread.

    While you're at it, you might also look at the history of the case so that you don't make any more silly statements about Christians thinking they should be immune to suffering. The defendants in this case have fought from the trial court through the appellate process all the way up to the Supreme Court of the State of New Mexico, and they're planning to try to take their case to the SCOTUS if they can. The "we shouldn't have to suffer" approach would have been to capitulate to the result at the trial-court level, which is what you seem to be counseling that they should have done.

    " . . . but I'd say he doesn't have the legal right to turn it down. By that I mean, he has no right to turn down the work without opening himself up to a state fine and/or civil lawsuit."

    Well, that's not what the court means by it. It means he doesn't have a right to turn it down, period. The fine (which is set case by case) is a punishment for doing something one has no right to do, not the purchase price for the right to do it.

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  82. Listen, I went to a liberal arts college. I've got a lot of friends that have had abortions. The last thing they need is me telling them abortion is wrong. They're good people, and we shouldn't drive them away with anti-abortion rhetoric.

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  83. I think natural law arguments offer good, rational, philosophical justification for opposing gay marriage. However, I don't think natural law arguments are persuasive in the context of American jurisprudence. Thus, I believe those who hold that gay marriage is morally wrong for natural law reasons are perfectly rationally justified in doing so, however, I think those who think that this philosophical argument is sufficient for making gay marriage illegal go too far.

    Ah, so natural law arguments do offer rational justification for opposing gay marriage, but they don't at the same time, or they don't offer enough justification within the right ill-defined "context" or something, as determined by your entirely arbitrary personal definition of "enough."

    Besides which, you've already said that gay marriage should be recognized by American law even if most actually are persuaded that it shouldn't, so you're just making a dishonest excuse again.

    Sorry, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too, and you're still a fideist.


    It's not punishing everyone who doesn't behave accordingly, it's merely requiring that, in states where same sex marriage is recognized by the law, any business owner must also recognize it.

    If you privately don't want to recognize it, nobody's going to force you.


    So it's not punishing behavior, because it's only punishing behavior and not private thoughts. That makes sense.


    You show no signs of even being willing to understand my comments on Russia, despite my repeated attempts to clarify them.

    I understood them, and quickly realized that they were made in bad faith, since you want Christians to "go along to get along" with popular un-Christian laws in America, but not with even more popular ones in Russia.


    If you're going to publicly call somebody a liar, you might want to take the time to get your facts straight.

    I don't need to prove your dissembling to you to your liking. Everyone here can read it for themselves.


    I happen to believe in a separation of Church and State, and that is why I oppose the law here.

    Even if we were to grant your (completely inconsistent and incoherent) separation of Morality and State, it doesn't follow that the American Left's latest definition of marriage is the objectively correct default "neutral" view, as is implied by your stated belief that the state should endorse it even when the majority disagrees with it. No, your basis for that belief is something else.

    Once again, that belief of yours directly contradicts Christianity, in spite of your furious rationalizations, and follows only from your adoption of the left-wing secularist moral worldview as the objective truth.


    Because, according to your logic, if you do, then you should be in favor of a law outlawing the practice of Buddhism.

    That's a truly stupid analogy. We're not talking about the state permitting behavior rather than restricting it. We're talking about the state endorsing a particular political worldview about what marriage is, and punishing people for not acting in accordance with it. YOU are the one who is endorsing the outlawing of the practice of a religion (and spare me your bullshit about how leaving someone's family homeless, destitute, and starving isn't "outlawing").

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  84. In my previous post(s), for "trial court" read "New Mexico Civil Rights Commission."

    And since I'm posting again, I may as well reiterate that the same-sex couple who brought the lawsuit had simply found another photographer anyway, so I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about what they had to "pay for [their] conscience."

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  85. "Haven't I consistently and repeatedly said that some fights are worth fighting even if you can't win, even if they might cost you the war?"

    Yeah, you have. I'm unsure of why you think this sound strategy of silence doesn't apply to abortion? Shouldn't it?




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  86. Listen, anyone else feel free to chime in. If Chad's non-combative strategy is useful in terms of educating secularists on immorality of homosexual activity, shouldn't it also be just as useful against abortion?

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  87. Well, you've done it Chad. I've finally given up on trying to reconcile your world view as, in any way, sane.

    [When asked if a doctor who refused to perform an abortion should pay a fine if the law so dictates] Pretty much.

    What do you think should happen?

    The woman shouldn't be allowed to sue?

    The doctor shouldn't pay if he loses in court?


    There it is. If a Doctor refuses to give an abortion he should have to pay a fine if the law says so.

    Again: In Chad world, a Doctor who refuses to perform an abortion should pay for not murdering somebody if the government so dictates.

    Yeah, that's insane.

    The hilarity of it is that you then cite MLK. I believe that if he was forced to pay a fine to sit at the front of the bus he would have sat there anyway and gotten himself arrested. He certainly wouldn't have paid the fine.

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  88. "There it is. If a Doctor refuses to give an abortion he should have to pay a fine if the law says so.

    Again: In Chad world, a Doctor who refuses to perform an abortion should pay for not murdering somebody if the government so dictates.

    Yeah, that's insane.

    The hilarity of it is that you then cite MLK. I believe that if he was forced to pay a fine to sit at the front of the bus he would have sat there anyway and gotten himself arrested. He certainly wouldn't have paid the fine."

    Finally, we see his Christian/utilitarian logic for what it is. It's satisfying and disheartening all at once.

    Unfortunate I had to resort to mock agreement to bring it out.

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  89. I see Chad is back to his argument about religious arguments being illegitimate in the public square.

    Last time he never answered why any arguments that might make use of God are illegitimate, even if those using them think they can prove God's existence through rational argument, but arguments relying on atheistic metaphysics are allowed. Why is this not an unfair advantage for the irreligious? Why is it not the case that it proves (what should be obvious) and secularism is essentially anti-religious? It also, of course, seems to buy into all that atheism as the default position nons4ense that Gnus and the likes put out - which a strange perspective for a Christian to give credence to.

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  90. "Why is it not the case that it proves (what should be obvious) and secularism is essentially anti-religious? It also, of course, seems to buy into all that atheism as the default position nons4ense that Gnus and the likes put out - which a strange perspective for a Christian to give credence to."

    No matter how many Christian comics Chad draws, he's ultimately bound by secular/atheistic law. He gets to buddy up with liberals on most issues (excluding abortion), then agree with/condemn his conservative Christian buds. Ain't being a Christian grand!

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  91. His comics are pretty awesome though.

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  92. "No matter how many Christian comics Chad draws . . . "

    Not that it's terribly relevant here, but Chad is the writer, not the artist. And I've found the first issue of his Theodicy to be a good piece of work; I'm looking forward to the rest.

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  93. I'm coming a little late to the party, but I just wanted to note that this is one of my favorite posts by you, Ed. Really, wonderful.

    Chad,

    I've already addressed the arguments you are making here before. Yet you continue to make them. From these comments (and the ones before), you seem to have a basic misunderstanding of how American law works, what law is In General, and more importantly, the difference between a negative right and a positive right. You also do not seem to totally grasp what legal "discrimination" is. A black florist does not "discriminate" against a KKK member by refusing to decorate his KKK rally. In such a case, he discriminates against the event, not the person. Only people are protected, not events.

    And please don't play down courts or judgments. The court is a use of force. Courts have unbelievable power in this country. A court and judgments absolutely are instruments that violate a person's freedoms. No court would even deny this reality. They would merely say, "Yes, because we have the authority to violate that freedom." And a court further has the authority to get a sheriff (or whatever arm) to enforce judgments. They can sell your property to satisfy the judgment. They usually can't sell certain protected things (because of some state constitutions and other protections), but it's well with in their power to take what they need to "make things right."

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  94. "His comics are pretty awesome though."

    Agreed. You must have posted that while I was writing my own post.

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  95. This is all about souls. The more people we're able to get into the church with love, the more we'll be able to educate on abortion and marriage.

    Because it's not as if multiple churches haven't been filled with dissenters on these topics, and then ultimately ended up changing the church rather than the church changing them, right?

    A soul isn't saved merely by going through the motions and converting. It's one thing to tolerate reasonable dissent. It's another to tolerate insincerity and intentional corruption of an organization.

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  96. Crude, I think you've been taken in by a deliberate parody. ;-)

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  97. "Not that it's terribly relevant here, but Chad is the writer, not the artist. And I've found the first issue of his Theodicy to be a good piece of work; I'm looking forward to the rest."

    Either way, I already admitted it's awesome.

    I actually agree with Chad on a couple things. I don't have a problem with his opinions. I do have a problem with his willingness to attack "conservative" christians and leave the court system untouched. Yeah, he says he respects their decision to fight. Nice. He then ignores the fact that the ruling delivered is wrong. Suck it up you pussy conservative Christians!!!

    So, like I said, Theodicy is fantastic. Unfortunately Chad hates "conservative" Christianity more than liberal secularism.

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  98. "Either way, I already admitted it's awesome."

    Ah. For obvious reasons, I couldn't tell that you were the same Anonymous. It often happens hereabouts that one Anon replies to another.

    And yes, one of the more frustrating things about Chad's posts on this subject so far has been his apparent unwillingness to evaluate the ruling itself.

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  99. "Crude, I think you've been taken in by a deliberate parody. ;-)"

    I apologize Crude. I'm a former Universalist Christian and I've just started RCIA.

    The Universalist heresy I grew up with (which I see shades of in Chad's statements) don't sit well with me. Perhaps there are more effective ways of dealing with them, but I'm too uneducated to voice them intelligently.

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  100. What's funny is a year ago I would have been calling Chad a homophobic bigot.

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  101. Crude, I think you've been taken in by a deliberate parody. ;-)

    Ouch. If so, I was caught. What can I say? That sounded sincerely delivered. Well done to whoever pulled it off - I have heard those words in the past.

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  102. "Ouch. If so, I was caught. What can I say? That sounded sincerely delivered. Well done to whoever pulled it off - I have heard those words in the past."

    Once again, I apologize.

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  103. Once again, I apologize.

    Nah, no need. That was funny in retrospect. :D Thanks for setting it straight.

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  104. Hey, maybe I'll be written in as a Theodicy villain. The Anonymous One has a nice ring.

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  105. @Joe K.:

    "And a court further has the authority to get a sheriff (or whatever arm) to enforce judgments."

    And in this particular instance they're fairly likely to do so. The plaintiffs in this case didn't even ask for damages (which it would have been up to them to try to collect); except for the court costs and attorneys' fees, the judgment was a fine, which is a different matter altogether.

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  106. @Scott

    Interesting, I didn't know that. You are correct in calling it a different matter altogether then. Do you happen to know the statute the fine fell under? Or have a link to a decent source on the case? And I mean decent. Most legal analysis I read by news outlets is really awful and never actually states the law.

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  107. @Scott

    Am I remembering correctly that you are/were an IP lawyer, or was that someone else?

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  108. @Joe K.:

    "Do you happen to know the statute the fine fell under?"

    The New Mexico Human Rights Act. Earlier in the thread I linked to the NM supreme court's ruling and to a law review article analyzing the case as of a couple of years ago; I don't have any links at hand to any analyses of the new ruling (other than the usual spate of op-ed pieces and such), but if I find any that I think are especially insightful, I'll post them here.

    "Am I remembering correctly that you are/were an IP lawyer, or was that someone else?"

    You're remembering correctly. Specialization in IP, interest in Constitutional law, licensed to practice in Ohio but not in active practice because I was already well along in another career before I picked up my law degree and I didn't find it worthwhile to maintain a law practice on the side. (I did that for a couple of years, but it barely paid for my continuing legal education. And I'd have had to take a huge pay cut to start a new career at a law firm.)

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  109. The other career was (and is) in publishing and software development, by the way, in both of which copyright is kind of a big deal (and other IP law isn't irrelevant either). In fact, when I completed my degree I was surprised to find out just how many non-practicing lawyers were working in the publishing field, particularly online publishing.

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  110. @Scott

    Right. I just finished taking the bar a couple months back. I'm waiting on the results; I can't say it's enjoyable. I took copyright in law school, and I liked it. I've had an interest in IP for a while now, but I never really did anything with it.

    I think I liked it because of how philosophically weird it is. I remember I wanted to write an article for law review about the metaphysics of copyright or some thing. Never happened though. I am curious still though if there are any solid (hopefully traditional) defenses of IP out there. Everything I come across is either unrelentingly utilitarian.

    If you don't mind me asking, why'd you go into law if you already had another career going?

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  111. @Joe K.:

    "If you don't mind me asking, why'd you go into law if you already had another career going?"

    Largely to help with that very career; at the company I was working for at the time, I ended up as a managing editor, partly as a result of my legal expertise.

    Best wishes on your bar exam results. I don't recall that the experience of taking the thing was very much fun either.

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  112. @Joe K.:

    "I am curious still though if there are any solid (hopefully traditional) defenses of IP out there."

    That's an interesting question; I can't honestly say I've run across any of which I think terribly well. I haven't looked in a while, though.

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  113. For the record, I'd love to see either of you write a post sometime about IP. I would find that legitimately interesting, given the intellectual puzzle it seems to pose (in the face of such determined 'you wouldn't download a car' press.)

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  114. Picking on Chad again:

    "On the New Mexico case, my views are sincere and consistent:"

    . . . even though later you admit that you "don't know the facts of the case." Well, you don't seem to be the only one, so perhaps it might be helpful to address some misunderstandings in a bit more detail.

    "1. The photographer should obey his conscience and refuse the work."

    Which she did.

    "2. The gay couple should have the right to sue him in civil court."

    Which they do, and nothing in this case has ever threatened that right in any way. But this case wasn't brought in "civil court"; it was originally heard by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission, part of the executive branch. (And nothing in it threatens the right of gay people to file complaints with the Commission, either.)

    "3. There should not be a law guaranteeing that gay couples who sue civilly for discrimination against recognition of their marriage automatically lose."

    Which there isn't. But this case wasn't about "recognition of their marriage." Some counties in New Mexico have started issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, but that's very recent; this case started back in 2006, when same-sex marriage had no legal recognition anywhere in New Mexico.

    And again, the couple didn't "sue civilly." This suit began as a complaint under the New Mexico Human Rights Act, which as of 2003 added sexual orientation to its list of protected classes under a law forbidding discrimination by public accommodations.

    One minor question in the case (and one that in my opinion should have been major, but apparently the defendants didn't press it too hard) was whether a photography business counted as a "public accommodation" at all. Traditionally, it wouldn't have; it's only in recent years that the definition has been stretched to include damn near anything under the sun that somebody or other wants to regulate.

    But the main issue in the case was whether, in refusing to photograph a ceremony between two people of the same sex, the photography studio was discriminating against them on the basis of their sexual orientation. This is a key point that you need to get clear in order to understand the fuss over this case.

    The photographers argued that they weren't discriminating on that basis—that they were perfectly willing to photograph gay people in other contexts. The court rejected that argument and said that if it offered photography services to commitment ceremonies, it had to do so across the board and couldn't refuse to offer that service to same-sex couples; doing so did amount to discrimination based on sexual orientation, because it was based on behavior associated with homosexuality. (Never mind, apparently, that the studio would also have refused its services heterosexuals pretending to have a same-sex commitment ceremony.)

    It further ruled that this requirement didn't in any way infringe the photographers' First Amendment rights—even though photography is far more clearly protected as a form of free expression for First Amendment purposes than commitment ceremonies are as expressions of sexual orientation for the purposes of anti-discrimination laws.

    "4. If the gay couple is awarded damages, the Christian should pay it willingly."

    Which they weren't. The plaintiffs didn't even ask for "damages." This wasn't a tort case; the defendants were fined for breaking a law.

    Hope that helps.

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  115. @Crude:

    Yeah, that would be an interesting subject to tackle sometime. I'd also be interested in hearing what, if anything, Ed had to say on the subject.

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  116. I'm not going to debate this stuff with you guys anymore, because I don't think we're going to change each other's minds and we just end up saying mean things to each other. I take Scott's point, and he's right, that I should have looked into the issue more before I commented on it. So, on this particular issue, I'm just going to shut up and go away now.

    I'm only commenting now to thank you guys for the nice things you said about my comic book. I appreciate it.

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  117. I actually think a legitimate point was raised by Chad that I discussed in more detail on WWWtW.

    Say you're the owner of a restaurant. An interracial couple comes in. When you learn they're interracial (say you overheard conversation) you ask the couple to please move to the separate "interracial couple" section of the restaurant. You're happy to serve them, you just don't think interracial couples and couples who are not interracial should be associating. It violates your religious beliefs.

    So, the facts:

    . An interracial couple wants to eat at your restaurant

    . You are willing to serve them, just not in a specific context, like when they're sitting with a non-interracial couple

    . You claim that doing so would violate your religious beliefs

    So tell me, what's the difference between this and the photography case?

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  118. @malcolmthecynic;

    "So tell me, what's the difference between this and the photography case?"

    Under current law the two cases are very easily distinguished. There are two differences, both important.

    First, a restaurant is a very clear example of what's called a "public accommodation" and is unambiguously covered by anti-discrimination laws that specifically apply to public accommodations (including New Mexico's). A photography studio is, to say the least, not a clear-cut example of one, and arguably doesn't fall under those laws.

    Second, photography is an art that involves the free expression of the artist, and therefore enjoys certain First Amendment protections that food service does not.

    Now, if you're asking about what I think the law should be, then frankly I'd say that even the owner of a (private) restaurant should be legally able to do as he pleased in this regard even though I think racism is wrong. Those of us who agree can in turn refuse to give the restaurant our business; the owner has no more right to our trade any more than we do to his.

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  119. ("Those of us who agree" that racism is wrong, that is.)

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  120. Another point on distinguishing the two cases under current law:

    In the case of the restaurant, it's a lot clearer (to me, anyway) that discrimination against interracial couples is discrimination based on race (even though no particular person or race is targeted) than it is in the case of the photography studio. Thus, given the current New Mexico statute, it's far more clear that the discrimination in question is based on the protected class or status.

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  121. . . . "than it is in the case of the photography studio" that the "discrimination" is based on sexual orientation.

    And @Chad:

    "I take Scott's point, and he's right, that I should have looked into the issue more before I commented on it."

    That's very gracious of you. Thanks.

    I'm only commenting now to thank you guys for the nice things you said about my comic book. I appreciate it."

    Thank you, and you're welcome. And as I said, I'm looking forward to the rest of the arc.

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  122. The irony of the whole photography case and the other cases of gay persecution of Christians brought up here is such tyranny goes against the liberal tradition. At least the liberal tradition I was taught 25 years ago in college.

    Since modern pseudo-Liberals classify all those who oppose gay marriage and believe homoerotic sex acts are immoral as no better than Neo-Nazis I am reminded of the words of a Jewish Lawyer defending the right of Nazi's to March in a public place near a Jewish Neighborhood.

    To paraphrase him he felt Nazis must have the right to freely speak because Jews must have the right to Freely speak. Yes there is a danger in Nazis speaking in that others might listen to them & they could grow. But there is always a danger in democracy. The solution to bad speech is not censorship but more good speech. Freedom of speech is for the speech you hate. Because nobody censors beloved speech.

    In this case if I can be forced to photograph a gay wedding or bake a wedding cake then in principle a "Christian" government can force an Atheist to pray or pay a stipend for a Mass. Or force a gay baker to bake a cake for an Ex-gay Ministry event.

    Why don't the gay marriage dirtbags see this simple logic and why don't they obey their own principles?

    I'm a conservative who is a better liberal than most so called liberals.

    For all my faults and sins I think I can make that boast.

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  123. Matt,

    I don't know what you mean by "making such a precise argument as I describe". Which of the arguments I described in particular are you talking about?

    It seems that skepticism about this aspect of Natural Law only leaves us with doubt as to whether or not the principle in question is universal or just generally the case. These aren't positive reasons (as Scott demanded) to go forward with the behavior in question.

    In moral matters not directly addressed by natural law as known, casuistic principles dominate, because they are the natural law applied indirectly; and if the skepticism is legitimately grounded, the applicable casuistic principle is (to quote Liguori) that liberty is in possession -- although by the nature of the case it would be constrained by the in-general rules and presumptions that you can get. I don't remember Scott demanding positive reasons, although given the dust in this comments thread I could have missed it, but his central thesis was that the standard arguments fail, or at least fail to be as strong as they would need to be, thus leaving open possible circumstances when homosexual acts would be morally permissible. This kicks the problem over to casuistics, and everything proceeds from there as a case of conscience guided by rational presumption, probability, and moral safety. It's simply unnecessary to Scott's basic argument, if legitimate, to argue that any homosexual acts currently practiced are morally licit, even if that is his view. If (as parts of First World society are increasingly coming to seem like) all heterosexual unions in a society were morally illicit in some way, this would be irrelevant to an argument that some such unions in principle could be. Indeed, in such a society you would need to start with such an argument in order to establish the right way to inquire into how to build morally licit heterosexual unions at all. And that's really all Scott would need -- whether morally licit homosexual unions happen to have been stumbled on already or have yet to be designed is simply a matter of chronology important for what practical policy to have given the argument, not something that affects the argument itself.

    In other words, where natural law does not directly apply, it becomes a matter of what individual prudence reasonably judges on a case-by-case basis, which is constrained by general guidelines but which is a matter of rational liberty. One would imagine that in such a case, assuming that there were no stronger arguments in favor forthcoming, homosexual unions would still be the less morally safe union -- but while it is always morally licit, and usually better, to avoid things that are morally risky, it is an error (and for Catholics an explicitly condemned heresy) to hold that things must be avoided merely because they are morally risky.

    All of this depends on the original direct arguments having genuine structural problems; if they don't, casuistic principles don't apply, by definition. But the structural problems Scott has argued for are precisely of the right kind. Thus my argument that they need to be taken quite seriously.

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  124. Thanks, Brandon

    I think maybe I am sounding like I know more than I do, which is probably me trying to do that. I was asking how you would frame the NL arguments concerning the immorality of non-procreative sex to account for the sorts of structural errors Scott was pointing out (though I don't want to just assume you are in the traditional camp!)

    I see what you mean as far as that the issue of certain sexual behaviors would then be evaluated in a case by case way. I suppose my slowness to grant it in the case of homosexuality has to do with my difficulty with seeing how it would fall within the range of behaviors for which exceptions could be made. My own laymans opinion, the roughest sort of argument I would give to articulate my own discomfort with granting that homosexual activity might have a moral context is that whatever the context might be we would be saying that it is fine for people to be dishonest with themselves about what sort of body they have. Whatever reasons we would be giving to bless the homosexual union would have to say that the bodies involved in sexual union aren't as important as some other aspect of the relationship that would ultimately be non-sexual. That's my hang up I guess.

    -Matt

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  125. In the case of the restaurant, it's a lot clearer (to me, anyway) that discrimination against interracial couples is discrimination based on race (even though no particular person or race is targeted) than it is in the case of the photography studio.

    We must always remember that nothing about recognizing homosexual so-called "marriage" is properly laid at the door of either "gender" or "sexual orientation" under discrimination law. Because, remember, nothing prevents a gay from marrying in such a way that we WOULD recognize it as a normal marriage: he can marry a woman.

    Let's take the NM case through the hoops again. Suppose a couple - a man and a woman - comes to the photographer Elaine and says they are interested in having her shooting "a wedding" but imply that it might not be THEIR wedding. She says that might work, let's talk about details. The couple says "we want you to know, we are homosexuals". Elaine says "some of my best friends are too, but in any case, that doesn't change anything important here." Then the couple says "WE are the ones getting married", and Elaine says "do you mean, to each other?" The couple says yes. The man is gay, and the woman is lesbian, but they are both Christian and they both want children naturally and they are both willing to do what their religion says in order to have children RIGHT. And Elaine says "OK, this sounds do-able, let's talk about dates."

    Now, clearly, SEXUAL ORIENTATION cannot possibly have anything to do with it if Elaine turns down 2 men or 2 women for a wedding ceremony. Elaine is perfectly willing to shoot for a gay person or for a lesbian person, so their orientation is not the deal. It is the purported marriage ceremony that is the problem, and THAT's not protected in law.

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  126. Hi, Matt,

    I do in fact disagree with Scott's criticism (although I think we currently don't have a precise enough way to formulate conclusions that would let us not worry at all about the limits of our conclusions -- I think in sexual matters natural law theorists are in something like the position the early scholastics were on usury a few hundred years before the Fifth Lateran Council, having the basic arguments but lacking the vocabulary etc. for getting them precise enough to present the arguments, not defective in their main structure, in a non-defective presentation); but I don't think it's easy to show it, and certainly don't know a way to put it into a reasonable-length comment or series of comments in the kind of time I have. In general terms it would largely consist of responding in full to the points Scott raised, which are legitimate ones necessary for the argument; some of the points raised by Tony in one or two comments are along the right lines for some of it; and so forth.

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  127. The irony of the whole photography case and the other cases of gay persecution of Christians brought up here is such tyranny goes against the liberal tradition.

    Let me make an analogy - Imagine a club that has traditionally discriminated against race or gender or Catholics and after much debate, protest and turmoil they finally decide to open their membership to The Other, whoever that is. Then afterwards they say, “You are welcome into the club, but purchasing food or parking, getting your picture made, or having music and decoration for special events is not available to you.” Would you really think you were a member of this club? For the sake of argument I’ll call this club Integrated Citizenship.

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  128. @Tony:

    "Now, clearly, SEXUAL ORIENTATION cannot possibly have anything to do with it if Elaine turns down 2 men or 2 women for a wedding ceremony. Elaine is perfectly willing to shoot for a gay person or for a lesbian person, so their orientation is not the deal. It is the purported marriage ceremony that is the problem, and THAT's not protected in law."

    Moreover, and more generally and fundamentally, her unwillingness to take photographs that show homosexual behavior of any kind is still not discrimination based on the parties' sexual orientation.

    Their orientation has nothing to do with it. She would just as readily refuse to shoot gay porn in which each of the actors was straight in real life. (Of course she'd refuse to shoot opposite-sex porn too, but that's beside the point.)

    Her refusal, in short, is based on the subject matter of the photos. And not only is that subject matter not protected under anti-discrimination laws, but the choice not to photograph it is protected under the First Amendment.

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  129. @Step2

    “You are welcome into the club, but purchasing food or parking, getting your picture made, or having music and decoration for special events is not available to you.”

    Here's where your analogy fails. These services are available to them; they just can't force others against their will to provide them. The gay couple in the case under discussion did get their pictures taken in the end, just with another provider. Liberty wins - for everyone.

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  130. @Step2:

    "Let me make an analogy . . . Would you really think you were a member of this club?"

    I'm not sure what the analogy is supposed to be, but no matter what it is, a "club" is an unfortunate choice of example. Private clubs aren't covered by anti-discrimination laws and still won't be even if the NM ruling survives.

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  131. @Alat:

    "Liberty wins - for everyone."

    Yes.

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  132. @Brandon:

    "[S]some of the points raised by Tony in one or two comments are along the right lines for some of it . . . "

    I'll just add my agreement to that. Both in this thread and in another one where a related subject came up, Tony's responses were among the most cogent and helpful I received.

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  133. Thanks guys,

    Tony's approach struck me as similar to Alexander Pruss', which I like. It's thorough at least. I hope I didn't sound like I was fixated, but I am really trying to understand this issue. As a Protestant, I am not totally on board with the more strict aspects of catholic sexual morality (though I can't get on board with Scott, either!) though I think the Church (or at least catholic philosophers like Feser, Pruss, George, etc) is very clearly doing much better at talking about current sexual issues than any other denomination I know of. There's a smart bunch commenting here, too. I always enjoy your comments, Brandon and those of Scott, tony, O'Floinn, Glenn and others.

    -Matt

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  134. Liberty wins - for everyone.

    To be consistent you must allow that all other legally protected groups can be denied services simply because they belong to that group. Conscience trumps law every time.

    Private clubs aren't covered by anti-discrimination laws and still won't be even if the NM ruling survives.

    I didn't say it was a private club, hence the name.

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  135. Nevada Revised Statutes 233.01 - Declaration of public policy

    "2. It is hereby declared to be the public policy of the State of Nevada to protect the welfare, prosperity, health and peace of all the people of the State, and to foster the right of all persons reasonably to seek and be granted services in places of public accommodation without discrimination, distinction or restriction because of race, religious creed, color, age, sex, disability, sexual orientation, national origin or ancestry."

    Just curious about something. Based on this Nevada statute, couldn't a gay male sue a straight male prostitute for discrimination for refusing to render his "services"?

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  136. @Step2:

    "To be consistent you must allow that all other legally protected groups can be denied services simply because they belong to that group."

    To be consistent we need only to allow (as the concept of "public accommodation" did before post-1964 law took it over) that only the government and its licensed monopolies are legally bound not to "discriminate" against "protected groups," that these "protected groups" are "protected" only against "discrimination" from those sources, and that everybody else is legally free to "discriminate" for any reason at all or for none.

    "I didn't say it was a private club, hence the name."

    Then perhaps you should make your analogies clearer. If you're talking about a public entity, then see above. The photography studio in the New Mexico case was no such thing, so I'm still not sure what your analogy is supposed to be.

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  137. "Based on this Nevada statute, couldn't a gay male sue a straight male prostitute for discrimination for refusing to render his 'services'?"

    Whee, now there's a test case.

    Yes, according to the "logic" of the Supreme Court of the State of New Mexico (according to which legal prostitution would appear to qualify as a "public accommodation"), it would indeed seem that the plaintiff should have a good chance of winning such a suit.

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  138. Thanks, I thought it was an interesting question.

    Eric

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  139. On "public accommodations," here's a pretty good history of the treatment of the subject in U.S. law written in 1968. On the whole I agree with the conclusion.

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  140. Hey Scott, sorry to bother you but I have another question. Could a church be viewed as a place of public accommodation?

    Eric

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  141. Anyone who thinks that the moderns cannot be brought around by rational argument to reconsider essentialism, teleology, the notion of the good as what fulfills our nature, and other elements of traditional metaphysics simply hasn’t been paying attention.

    There you go again. The arguments you have are long, complicated and hard to understand. People who are not sympathetic to them, including apparently even people in philosophy departments, aren't going to be brought around by them. There may be other reasons for making natural law arguments, but their effectiveness as an evangelistic tool is not one of them. Good grief.

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  142. the jurisprudential arguments that have won the day in recent decisions are obviously compelling ones

    Given modern assumptions, arrived at through intuition, of course, the arguments are compelling.

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  143. There you go again. The arguments you have are long, complicated and hard to understand. People who are not sympathetic to them, including apparently even people in philosophy departments, aren't going to be brought around by them. There may be other reasons for making natural law arguments, but their effectiveness as an evangelistic tool is not one of them.

    That's too strong. They're not a good mass evangelistic tool, but I don't see Ed as arguing they are. They're pretty damn effective in particular contexts, though.

    Given modern assumptions, arrived at through intuition, of course, the arguments are compelling.

    I'm probably the odd man out among even the NL proponents when I say, I don't think even this is obviously true. I think the only thing compelling about the modern views in question have very little to do with arguments at all.

    I think even Ed would say that if you just assume modernism and various other things, though, they're compelling. But not without those qualifications.

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  144. They're pretty damn effective in particular contexts, though.

    Lol.

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  145. Note that I'm disputing their effectiveness, not their correctness.

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  146. Note that I'm disputing their effectiveness, not their correctness.

    Yep. And in particular contexts, they're quite effective. Granted, that's going to mean a Venn diagram of 'open minded people' - 'interested in stuff like this to begin with' - 'who have actually encountered it' - 'and are capable of grasping and following the arguments' - 'and have no vested interest in denying the conclusions / aren't the kind to deny an argument's force when they have a vested interest'. It's not a big group. But the group exists.

    If you want to dispute the effectiveness of the arguments in at least some contexts, you're going to have to either dispute their correctness, or deny that the correctness of an argument/argument's conclusion is always (or at least here) detached from its effectiveness.

    Give either a try - that should be a whole lot of fun to watch!

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  147. deny that the correctness of an argument/argument's conclusion is always (or at least here) detached from its effectiveness.

    Whoops. Argue, not deny.

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  148. Step2 wrote:
    >Would you really think you were a member of this club? For the sake of argument I’ll call this club Integrated Citizenship.

    Scott wrote:
    >Then perhaps you should make your analogies clearer. If you're talking about a public entity, then see above. The photography studio in the New Mexico case was no such thing, so I'm still not sure what your analogy is supposed to be.

    Maybe Step2 doesn't believe in private business? Maybe he believes all businesses are somehow creatures of the State and Society not the private property of individuals(maybe he think this? Who know?). But that would be the only way to make sense of that analogy. Sorry but a Christian baker in a liberal democracy must have the right to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Just as a gay activist baker must have the right to refuse to bake a cake for a wedding between an ex-gay Man & ex-gay woman(because in his conscious he really believes/feels they are fooling themselves and doesn't want to be party to it).

    This is civil liberty 101.

    >These services are available to them; they just can't force others against their will to provide them.

    Amen! Too do less is one step(pun intended) away from tyranny.

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  149. @Eric:

    "Hey Scott, sorry to bother you but I have another question. Could a church be viewed as a place of public accommodation?"

    It wouldn't generally be viewed as one now; the concept becomes broader and narrower for different purposes in different jurisdictions, but a church still wouldn't count in most cases. (Even the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is pretty broad and sweeping, doesn't apply to churches or the entities they control.) But the way the concept has been expanding, it's not impossible that this could change. That's one of the worries about the New Mexico ruling.

    Even under current circumstances, the ruling could be taken to imply that certain church activities/functions/entities could be treated that way. Suppose a church rented out some of its facilities for people to hold weddings there. The current ruling might mean that it couldn't refuse to rent out space for same-sex ceremonies (even in states that don't recognize same-sex marriages at all), and if it didn't want to do so, it would have to stop renting them out for weddings altogether.

    I don't think anybody who brought a lawsuit on that sort of basis would actually win (at least not on appeal), but I'll be very surprised if nobody ever tries.

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  150. And in particular contexts, they're quite effective. Granted, that's going to mean a Venn diagram of 'open minded people' - 'interested in stuff like this to begin with' - 'who have actually encountered it' - 'and are capable of grasping and following the arguments' - 'and have no vested interest in denying the conclusions / aren't the kind to deny an argument's force when they have a vested interest'. It's not a big group. But the group exists.

    Lol. I think you've just made my argument for me. The group you're talking about is so vanishingly small as to be, for all practical purposes, non-existent. There is zero chance of it being large enough to affect society at large. (You've also forgotten another factor, "and are prepared to let the arguments change their life, not just give it a dry intellectual assent.")

    BTW I have never said that absolutely nobody can convinced. But I have said that natural law arguments, aside from maybe 5 or 6 dudes somewhere, have been and will continue to be an utter failure as an evangelistic tool.

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  151. "There may be other reasons for making natural law arguments, but their effectiveness as an evangelistic tool is not one of them. Good grief."

    Gotcha. What evangelistic tools do you utilize lately that are effective?

    I myself was thinking Christianity could pull some money together and get Miley Cyrus to cover the popular DC Talk song "Jesus Freak".

    Eric

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  152. I was convinced by natural law arguments at around 16. I never took a philosophy class and formerly had no problem with gay sex or marriage.

    Thursday, you're making a really wildly unprovable claim and if I say "I disagree" I've given pretty much the same amount of evidence you have.

    I think there are people who could be impressed by a theistic person explaining the exact logic behind their beliefs. I know I have atheist friends who would at least listen to such an approach.

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  153. "But I have said that natural law arguments, aside from maybe 5 or 6 dudes somewhere, have been and will continue to be an utter failure as an evangelistic tool."

    Perhaps this tool is the only way those 5 or 6 "dudes" could be evangelized. This is just me, but if 1 "dude" happens to come to Christ as a result of this ineffective tool it avoids the label utter failure.

    Eric

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  154. Lol. I think you've just made my argument for me. The group you're talking about is so vanishingly small as to be, for all practical purposes, non-existent.

    Thursday, read my comments to you from the start. I've said outright from the start that detailed metaphysical natural law arguments are not mass conversion tools, nor do I recall any NL proponents treating them as such. The whole point of the Venn Diagram talk was to establish that yes, compared to the general population, it's a pretty small group that can reasonably have their minds changed in this way.

    But 'for all practical purposes, non-existent'? That's just inane, and it relies on the idea that all individuals' conversions are of equal value. Here's another way to think about it: let's say you make an argument that will only convince 5 people in the world. No one else will be capable of following, understanding, or quite possibly even caring about your argument. Useless argument, right?

    Not if the 5 people you've convinced are named Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Roberts and Sotomayor.

    Now, I'm not pretending I or even anyone in this thread are anywhere close or even close to halfway that influential or important, or even more than the average person. But it illustrates why the idea cashing out to 'an argument('s correctness) is only valuable if it converts most people' is just silly.

    You've also forgotten another factor, "and are prepared to let the arguments change their life, not just give it a dry intellectual assent."

    Not necessary, really. Anything relevant and related to that is bundled up with 'no vested interest in denying the conclusions'. You also seem to think that NL's purpose is... what, converting people to Christianity? If so, you haven't even understood the idea. You don't have to be a Christian to accept NL. Maybe not even a theist.

    But I have said that natural law arguments, aside from maybe 5 or 6 dudes somewhere,

    I've seen the arguments impact and change the minds of more than '5 or 6 people' personally, so that conclusion is right out. I've seen other forms of success, from atheists concluding 'Okay, yeah, that's actually a reasonable position' and otherwise. I've seen some claimed converts. I've seen Christians who previously accepted a personalistic view of God decide that the classical theist view was correct instead. Still, quite small in number. But it's well beyond 5 or 6 even from what I've seen personally.

    You seem to think that the only 'evangelistic tools' that really matter are ones that result directly in mass conversions. In light of the previous, I think the response to that is pretty clear:

    Lol. ;)

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  155. Maybe he believes all businesses are somehow creatures of the State and Society not the private property of individuals

    If you’ve got a business. you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

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  156. http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?NoCache=1&Dato=20130829&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=130829022&Ref=AR

    Shut up and pay your fines like good little Christians. If you don't like a state with this kind of power over conscience and the ordering of private life, then your kind can always go off somewhere else and start up your own country.

    But remember, if it turns out to be nice and prosperous enough, you can look for us to show up there too. It would be bigoted of you to think you could have it otherwise.

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  157. Shut up and pay your fines like good little Christians. If you don't like a state with this kind of power over conscience and the ordering of private life, then your kind can always go off somewhere else and start up your own country.

    Yeah, because in this country we protect the downtrodden from the likes of you. So now that we have more votes, we can kick your butts and you have to take it or leave.

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  158. @matt:

    "Tony's approach struck me as similar to Alexander Pruss', which I like."

    I think quite well of Pruss, and his One Body is high on my to-read list. Is that the book you have in mind?

    " . . , though I can't get on board with Scott, either!"

    That's understandable, of course, but all I've really done in this thread is point out what appear to me to be a couple of problems in strictly natural-law-based arguments against gay sex—and even at that I've said only that they're not conclusive, not that they just don't make sense at all. Brandon has said that he thinks the gaps can be filled; I'm entirely open to that possibility. And even if they couldn't, that still wouldn't rule out an argument based on special revelation.

    I am on board with the general basis of the argument as I understand it—namely that our good is to be found in the fulfillment of our nature, that the overarching goal of that nature is to know God (specifically the God of classical theism), and that any apparent goods that hinder that end are for that reason not genuine goods. That much is common to Christianity, Judaism, and classical philosophy. And of course the virtue of chastity is important (whatever its precise details) even apart from reference to our final end; it's just that I'm not persuaded that a full case for the specifically Catholic understanding of that virtue can be made out on a natural-law basis alone. If it can, then it can, and that's that.

    I also, whatever my precise disagreements, have nothing but praise for this overall approach. Despite what some people (on both sides of the argument) may sometimes say (or appear to say), I'm well aware that Catholic teaching doesn't treat "homosexual orientation" as sinful in and of itself; it merely says that the practice of chastity forbids the use of one's sexual organs in any way that frustrates their natural end of procreation, and gay sex is one item on the list of practices to eschew. It's not singled out for any sort of "persecution" or "hatred," and recommending that people not engage in it isn't any sort of "bigotry." (In fact anal intercourse—with either sex—is forbidden to heterosexuals as well; the prohibition isn't limited to gays and isn't based on "sexual orientation.")

    And indeed, as Brandon says, Aquinas himself argues that "the proper response to people engaging in homosexual acts is not condemnation but compassion." Nothing in Catholic teaching requires our attitude toward a gay person to be Ew, you're a horrible person for wanting to do those things at all, and even more horrible for actually doing them; in fact, if I understand aright, that attitude is expressly forbidden. (Whether specific people have always followed that prohibition is of course another matter.)

    Indeed, if the specifically Catholic view of chastity is the correct one, then it's actually a pretty damned good reply to the people who really are hateful bigots (not all of whom, of course, are "religious" at all, even nominally). I see nothing in it that should cause offense to anyone who's gay, any more than I see anything in the prohibition on contraception to "offend" me. And I have no problems with it that I couldn't in principle, if I were Catholic, deal with by just accepting the official teaching while acknowledging that I don't fully understand it and continuing to consider the matter in good faith.

    So, while I certainly don't wish to suggest that we don't disagree at all, we at least have a good deal of common ground.

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  159. @matt:

    By the way, regarding my previous post: please don't misunderstand my repeated references specifically to Catholicism as an indication that I'm not aware you're Protestant!

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  160. I want to add something to the conversation, even though it's this late in the game: There are more arguments available against same-sex marriage, and same-sex sexual behavior in general, than NL arguments.

    I pointed at the example of Russia. Officially, natural law arguments aren't driving their stances there. Nor do I think, against the views of some, that we can just throw up our hands and say 'must be bigotry, then!' In the case of Russia, there is a situation of disastrous demographics that they are trying to turn around. They have reasoned 'the sort of culture where people get married, have children, and raise them' to be at odds with a culture that celebrates gay marriage and an LGBT culture.

    Once it's acknowledged that culture influences behavior, and that some cultures can be valued by individuals and nations over others, what you have are the beginnings of an entirely secular argument against gay marriage and LGBT culture generally. In fact, I'd go further than even that: secular arguments against these things are easy, because the bar for 'secular arguments' are so low. But even with a raised bar, these arguments exist.

    And we're probably going to see more of them. I actually wonder if Japan isn't the next place we'll see it - another country with a demographics problem, and curiously, another where gay marriage hasn't been recognized, nor do there seem to be plans to do so, despite a very secular culture.

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  161. Scott,

    When you put it all that way I can't find anything to disagree with :-)

    I haven't read Pruss' One Body yet, but he has some papers you can find on his Baylor website (https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Alexander_Pruss/www/papers/notlust.html) that covers his position more briefly. Tony's emphasis on Love in his comment is the sort of approach Pruss takes. It's more "what is loving" rather than "what is good for you given your nature", so more theological I guess.

    I'm very sympathetic to Natural Law, but I don't want to leave anyone with the false impression that my current intellectual state goes beyond sympathy. I didn't do a very good job of it, but I was trying to see if what was in my own head would stick to the proverbial wall that is this blog's comment section. I think that my contention with what you were arguing was simply that even if we grant that there are exceptions to the rules for sex under NL (which I do think is probably true, or I'm closer to you on that than I let on), there are other considerations that seem to me to bar homosexuality and paraphilias from the list of possible exceptions. What I was trying to get at was that, apart from the sort of 'good of the organism', there seems to be something that is bad for persons about paraphilias in the intellectual realm. That's to say that embracing or normalizing such desires involves a kind of lie or confusion of categories that poisons our conceptual apparatus (and this poisonous effect can be seen in our culture today). Of course, that needs plenty of argument itself and doesn't get around considerations about the organism but I think it does take the conversation away from the narrower focus on the sexual organs. This seems to just grant your main point concerning Natural Law, though.

    Also! I love the Catholic Church. Some of my most profound religious experiences have been in her beautiful places of worship. I'm not precious about being a Protestant, anyways. I just wanted to be totally honest about where I'm at on sexual ethics, which is to say "not Catholic."

    Thanks again for the conversation.

    -Matt

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  162. On "public accommodations," here's a pretty good history of the treatment of the subject in U.S. law written in 1968. On the whole I agree with the conclusion.

    On the whole it seems fairly weak. In addition to government agencies and licensed monopolies (and I am skeptical of his historical interpretation of those as well), he includes natural and economic monopolies. So why are there two glaring exceptions to the rule of private businesses being able to discriminate? As far as I can tell it is because it would be too inconvenient for the people discriminated against. So his freedom of association principle is thrown out for an inconvenience, which means it isn’t a strong principle to begin with.

    @DNW

    As Crude suggested your best bet is somewhere in Asia. The trend towards prosperity goes the opposite direction everywhere else.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_homosexuality_laws.svg

    @Tony
    Maybe I'm the only person who noticed George R. doing his usual schtick of advocating the death penalty for homosexuals. I'm also impressed when Christians get so defensive about property rights as if Jesus had never said, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

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  163. @step2:

    "On the whole it seems fairly weak."

    Fair enough, and in fact your point here is about a part of his analysis with which I have similar disagreements. But his history of the concept's development is thorough and pretty sound (which is why I posted the link), and removing the part about natural monopolies would actually have strengthened his conclusion.

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  164. @Step2:

    The willingness to renounce one's own rights isn't contrary to the zealous protection of others'. And at any rate nobody could lawfully "sell what [he] possess[ed]" if it wasn't his to begin with.

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  165. And in view of the way things go on this site sometimes, let me explicitly give credit where it's due: Step2 clearly did follow the link I posted and read (and understand) the long and substantial article at the other end of it.

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  166. >George R. doing his usual schtick of advocating the death penalty for homosexuals.

    George believes in Geocentriscism and he calls himself "Catholic" but he doesn't believe Francis is the true Pope.

    He is a Sedevacantist schismatic.

    BTW there is no "death penalty for homosexuals in the Bible".

    There are a laws in the OT in which in theory if two men had anal sex in public in front of 4 to 6 male witnesses they could be stoned to death. But there is no recored case in the Mishna of anyone being convicted of this Law.

    The Laws here are designed to be nearly impossible to get a conviction. So it's more of a principle of God's disapproval of gay sex rather then

    Ironically it isn't till the Christian era when they combined OT law with Roman Law do we see any convictions of this law.

    According to OT tradition the two dudes have to do it in public & the 4 to 6 witnesses have to clearly warn them they are breaking the Law of Moses and can be put to death. If they stop then they are OK. If they clearly hear the warnings & continue they must be tried by a Bet Din of 23 judges. 15 judges or more are needed for a conviction a simple majority for acquittal. A judge who hands down a guilty verdict may change it before the end of the trial to not guilty but may not change it back. One who first hands down a not guilty may never change it.

    If the evidence shows the warnings where not clear then a judge must vote to acquit.

    The Mishna has stories of lone Rabbis & Sages catching two men in the act of Sodomy who then threaten the Rabbis "We are two you are but one"(you need two witnesses to put someone to death for a capital crime in the OT). But never of anyone who openly did this in public.

    Only anal sex between Men under these extra-ordinary conditions merited death. Other forms of gay sex are classified as licentious behavior and at best might merit corporal punishment. But the offenders would have to do it in public. Lesbian acts are also licentious.

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  167. additional:

    Stoning according to Jewish Tradition consisted of binding the perps' hands and feet taking them up to a two or more story height and pushing them backwards off the height onto a pile of stones to break their necks.

    If they survive the fall two men had to be standing by too clobber the perp with a large rock to put them out of their misery.

    This Tradition testified too in the Talmud and Mishna is witnessed by the NT as well. Jesus when he first revealed himself at Nazareth is treated with Stoning and they "Try to throw him off a cliff". James the Just was stoned and thrown from the roof of the Temple.

    Just in case anyone is interested.

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  168. Ben, from the story of Susanna and Daniel, I thought the general requirement for condemnation for such crimes was 2 witnesses. That's what Deut. 19 seems to say:

    Whatever be the offence or crime a man is charged with, it shall not suffice for one witness to appear against him; every question must be settled by the voice of two witnesses or more.

    It seems unrealistic to set up a requirement of "4 to 6 witnesses" for one sort of serious crime but only 2 for a similar one. What would be the point?

    And Leviticus 20:13 condemns to death a man who "lies with a man as with a woman", which does not explicitly limit it to anal sex, though that could be the sense of it.

    If the later Jews constrained the "rules of evidence" to demand 4 to 6 witnesses (why the range? Is it 4 sometimes and 6 other times?), is there any clear basis to think that this applied even during Moses' time and that of the early judges, or was that a later addition? Because it is not in the law itself.

    I have never understood the details of the practice of stoning, but one would think that whatever the specifics were, they would make sense of Jesus's admonition "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." In another place, Lev. has God say that a criminal shall be "stoned by the whole people". Seems difficult to do if the basic act is to push them off a high place onto stones.

    I don't know anything about how later Jewish regulations were made in the context of "the Law", but clearly there were centuries of additions added to additions on top of additions.

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  169. @Tony

    >It seems unrealistic to set up a requirement of "4 to 6 witnesses" for one sort of serious crime but only 2 for a similar one. What would be the point?

    At the risk of sounding gross.

    A man having anal sex with another man where both are willing participants is two crimes so you need 2 to 3 witnesses per crime. The two crimes are violating the commandment against sodomy and the prohibition of a man lying with another man as if he where a woman.

    Sodomy according to the Rabbis is the crime of willingly being the "receiver" in that act. A man lying with another man as he would a woman is defined as being the "pitcher" as it where.

    >I have never understood the details of the practice of stoning, but one would think that whatever the specifics were, they would make sense of Jesus's admonition "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    The whole Pericope Adulterae scene is about some of Jesus' enemies trying to trap him into violating the Law of Moses so they might accuse him of a crime. Thus we should not be surprised at irregulars & clear violations of Jewish Law during the incident. For example: 1) Where is the woman's paramour? The Law of Moses says both an adulterer & adulteress must be punished. 2) OTOH one reason why her paramour might not be with her here is she is a Priest's daughter & that is a separate crime in the Torah. So it would make sense she is punished separately. But then stoning her is inappropriate since the Law of Moses commands she be burned. 3) The Rabbis said it is not required you throw stones at the perp but you can throw the perp at the stones. 4) Jewish Tradition also mandates an execution must be as quick as possible with minimal pain. Being pushed off a ledge to break your neck is quicker than slowly being beaten to death by stoning. The mob is clearly violating Jewish Law here and the enemies of Jesus want to see if he would be complicit.
    5)OTOH given the formal procedure of Stoning Jesus might be soliciting volunteers for he Job of holding the stone needed to clobber the woman if she is pushed off a height and survives the fall. But of course he is insisting they be sinless.

    There is more if we look at the Patristic evidence but I am confident my point is made.

    >I don't know anything about how later Jewish regulations were made in the context of "the Law", but clearly there were centuries of additions added to additions on top of additions.

    So you are a Sola Scriptura Protestant then Tony? Come on fess up?

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  170. additional:

    Burning is not according to Rabbinic Tradition the act of setting someone on fire. To burn a perp you where originally required to bury them up to their knees in mud and pour hot wick down their throat to suffocate them. However the Rabbis did change hot wick to molten tin because they believed it would be quicker.

    There is no record of anyone in the Mishna actually receiving this punishment. There is a record of a Priest's daughter being found guilty of adultery & they wrapped her in reeds & set her on fire. But the Rabbis found this was a heretical Sadducee court that only accepted the Pentatuch & rejected the rest of the Torah and the Oral Law. So they concluded this court was murderous.

    In Jewish Law to execute a perp improperly was a crime and itself an act of murder.

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  171. additional additional.

    Briefly the story of Susanna is an example of how witnesses who commit perjury during a capital trial are according to the Law of Moses guilty of a capital crime. Even if they are also the judges.

    Jewish Law required a lesser Sanhedran or Bet Din of 23 judges. But sometimes special circumstances could be invoked. One judge presided by himself in the trial & execution of several hundred accused of witchcraft. But the Rabbis said just because he acted in an extra-ordinary manner under special circumstances doesn't mean that was the norm.

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  172. >I don't know anything about how later Jewish regulations were made in the context of "the Law", but clearly there were centuries of additions added to additions on top of additions.

    So you are a Sola Scriptura Protestant then Tony? Come on fess up?

    No, it seems more like you are.

    Jesus is the one who told us that the scribes and pharisees had added minutiae to the Law in telling people how to observe it. Things like deciding how many steps from your house you could walk on the Sabbath before it was "work".

    Think back a moment for how we know the Rabbinic wisdom and the Talmud came to be: one rabbi after another taking what is received ,sifting it, and adding a tiny little clarification, gloss, application to new customs, etc. It did not spring forth full and complete the moment Moses set forth the first rendering of the Law. It wasn't complete when Moses died. It wasn't complete when Joshua ruled Israel. It wasn't complete when the Judges ruled. It wasn't complete when David was king. etc.

    So, we can legitimately consider that during the early times after Moses wrote down the Law, some of these nuances you have stated were yet to be discovered and become rules.

    Which means that as explainers of the Law as written, they are only secondary sources, not primary, and they are not definitive.

    A man having anal sex with another man where both are willing participants is two crimes so you need 2 to 3 witnesses per crime.

    The same man can witness 2 crimes at once if both crimes occur at once.

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  173. >No, it seems more like you are.

    I'm Catholic & I accept the authority of Apostolic Tradition. End of Story.

    So you are Catholic then?

    >Jesus is the one who told us that the scribes and pharisees had added minutiae to the Law in telling people how to observe it. Things like deciding how many steps from your house you could walk on the Sabbath before it was "work".

    He also said the Pharusees where the Successors of Moses & to do what they said but not to follow their personal example. So Rabbinic Tradition gives us an insight into both the Old and New Testament. Granted since we are no longer under the Old Law it's a bit anachronistic like the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to a Constitutional Scholar. But it is clearly valuable.

    >Think back a moment for how we know the Rabbinic wisdom and the Talmud came to be: one rabbi after another taking what is received ,sifting it, and adding a tiny little clarification, gloss, application to new customs, etc. It did not spring forth full and complete the moment Moses set forth the first rendering of the Law.

    I don't see why we can't employ Newman's view on the development of doctrine here? Nor does it mean all Traditions handed down in the Talmud go back to Moses. But clearly some did just as with Christian Tradition.
    But like I said some of the Traditions are anachronistic because we aren't under the old law as Christians.

    >It wasn't complete when Moses died. It wasn't complete when Joshua ruled Israel. It wasn't complete when the Judges ruled. It wasn't complete when David was king. etc.

    Yes doctrine develops as taught by Newman & St Vincent of Larens.

    >So, we can legitimately consider that during the early times after Moses wrote down the Law, some of these nuances you have stated were yet to be discovered and become rules.

    It's possible but I would think the ones involving the death penalty are likely ancient thought the jurist prudence clearly evolved. So we are in agreement.

    >Which means that as explainers of the Law as written, they are only secondary sources, not primary, and they are not definitive.

    A Protestant might make the same claim about testimony to the Assumption of Mary in Patristic writings or any extra-Biblical doctrine. I am unconvinced & would trust Providence.

    >>A man having anal sex with another man where both are willing participants is two crimes so you need 2 to 3 witnesses per crime.

    >The same man can witness 2 crimes at once if both crimes occur at once.

    Not according to Jewish Tradition. At best the Tradition says the Israelite King can enact his own laws & have some of them based on the Law of Moses & set up his own courts with a lower standard of Proof for crimes so that civil chaos & Lawlessness not prevail in Israel. But the Tradition is rather definitive and universal.
    Two dudes each committing a separate Crime requiring each a separate set of witnesses. Your way only could be employed if it was the separate civil Law of an Israelite King. The religious Laws are higher.

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  174. Here is another fun Jewish Tradition. A Davidic King of Israel may judge and can be judged. A non-David King neither judges nor can be judged. Jesus was tried by the Great Sanhedran. According to Jewish legal Tradition only a Davidic King(a Jewish King descended from David), Prophet or the High Priest may be judged by the Greater Sanhedran for alleged crimes against the Law of Moses. Jesus was all Three of these things so by trying him they where implicitly admitting his status as the heir to the Throne of David. OTOH Jesus was silent before Herod. He spoke to the High Priest & he spoke to Pilate. Yet he said nothing to Herod. Well Herod might have been legally seen as a non-Davidic Israelite King & as such Jesus being silent toward him was kind of a dis. Almost saying "You have no right to sit in judgement. You are not a Davidic King (Unlike some of Us)."

    There is no end to the layers of coolness one can find in the OT via the lens of Tradition.

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  175. @Ben Yachov:

    "Two dudes each committing a separate Crime requiring each a separate set of witnesses."

    Are you certain of that? I know the witnesses to any single crime had to be independent of one another, but was it also required that there be an independent set of witnesses for each separate charge? If you really are sure of that, I'll take your word for it.

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  176. It's possible but I would think the ones involving the death penalty are likely ancient thought the jurist prudence clearly evolved.

    Oh come off it. Take the direct record of the Mosaic rules from the Pentateuch, and just extrapolate how long it would take to morph that relatively simple body into the long list you stated at 12:15 Sept 1: not 2 witnesses but 4 or 6, not 1 judge but 23; not a simple majority but at least 15 for guilt, but a simple majority for innocence; not a settled majority at the end, but ANY group of at least 12 who at ANY time drew a conclusion of innocence; not just verify the act took place, but state that THOSE WITNESSES actually warned them of the law and the possible death penalty; and on and on.

    Among a people who practice oral tradition by carefully handing down oral histories word for word without adjustment or modification, you don't get THAT MANY additions to the rules in just a few years. It takes time.

    See here for an alternative reading of the same rules:

    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Death_and_Mourning/About_Death_and_Mourning/Death_Penalty.shtml

    For instance, it is ruled that two witnesses are required to testify not only that they witnessed the act for which the criminal has been charged but that they had warned him beforehand that if he carried out the act he would be executed, and he had to accept the warning, stating his willingness to commit the act despite his awareness of its consequences. The criminal's own confession is not accepted as evidence. Moreover, circumstantial evidence is not admitted.

    It has to be appreciated, however, that practically all this material comes from a time when the right to impose the death penalty had been taken away from the Jewish courts by the Roman authorities. According to one report in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 41a) the power of the Jewish courts to the death penalty ceased around the year 30 BCE; according to another report (Sanhedrin 52b) it could only have been imposed while the Temple stood and must have come to an end not later than 70 CE when the Temple was destroyed.

    This means that, although earlier traditions may be present in the Mishnaic formulations, the whole topic, including the restrictions, is treated in the Mishnah and the Talmud in a purely theoretical way. It is hard to believe that when the courts did impose the death penalty they could only do so when the conditions above obtained. Who would commit a murder in the presence of two witnesses when these had solemnly warned him that if he persisted they would testify against him to have him executed for his crime?

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  177. Here is another fun Jewish Tradition. A Davidic King of Israel may judge and can be judged. A non-David King neither judges nor can be judged.

    Just at a guess, how long do you think after the days of David would it have taken for this rule to be added?

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  178. "Take the direct record of the Mosaic rules from the Pentateuch . . . "

    According to Rabbinic Judaism, the Oral Torah was given at Mt. Sinai along with the Written, and only later was it codified in the Talmud, Mishnah, and Gemara. If that's the case, then no morphing is required.

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  179. >>It's possible but I would think the ones involving the death penalty are likely ancient thought the jurist prudence clearly evolved.

    >Oh come off it. Take the direct record of the Mosaic rules from the Pentateuch, and just extrapolate how long it would take to morph that relatively simple body into the long list you stated at 12:15 Sept 1:

    I don't know or care I was thinking about the manner of execution when I wrote the above.


    >Among a people who practice oral tradition by carefully handing down oral histories word for word without adjustment or modification, you don't get THAT MANY additions to the rules in just a few years. It takes time.

    Tony what part of applying Newman's concept of development of doctrine do you not get? What you are describing above is not my position & not the Catholic view of development of doctrine(I doubt it's the Jewish view). Besides the seed or core principles would have been there. Peter didn't have Cardinals nor did many of the Early Popes but they where formally elected by the clergy of Rome who where deemed eligible. Peter and the Apostles taught the Trinity but obviously they didn't use precise Nicean language but they taught the seed. I have no reason to doubt that the early Jews had a group of judges & their procedures developed over time. But I think it likely back then the manner of execution(stoning & burning) was as I said and the seed of the death penalty having to be quick and human was taught by Moses.

    >See here for an alternative reading of the same rules:

    >http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Death_and_Mourning/About_Death_and_Mourning/Death_Penalty.shtml

    I know it well & learned a lot about the Talmud from these links however the article you specifically cite was written by a Conservative not an Orthodox Jew. I tend to put more stock in the Orthodox view(with some exceptions & NT modifications) since they have less minimalist tendencies but it's a balance.

    >It has to be appreciated, however, that practically all this material comes from a time when the right to impose the death penalty had been taken away from the Jewish courts by the Roman authorities.

    So what? The dead sea scrolls show a remarkable preservation of the text of Scripture when compared to the Masoretic text which is 1000 years later. Also you are employing a fallacy. You are assuming Oral Tradition wasn't written down. The difference between Oral Tradition and Scripture is that Scripture is the Word of God & Tradition is the Voice of God. The Word must be preserved verbatim. The voice can be paraphrased & we trust divine providence to protect the seed as it was passed down & developed.

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  180. >According to one report in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 41a) the power of the Jewish courts to the death penalty ceased around the year 30 BCE; according to another report (Sanhedrin 52b) it could only have been imposed while the Temple stood and must have come to an end not later than 70 CE when the Temple was destroyed.

    Well the OT says the septer would not depart from Judah till the coming of the Shihlo.

    >This means that, although earlier traditions may be present in the Mishnaic formulations, the whole topic, including the restrictions, is treated in the Mishnah and the Talmud in a purely theoretical way.

    Maybe or it might simply mean during the day to day life people where mostly subjected to the King's Law vs the Torah.

    >It is hard to believe that when the courts did impose the death penalty they could only do so when the conditions above obtained. Who would commit a murder in the presence of two witnesses when these had solemnly warned him that if he persisted they would testify against him to have him executed for his crime?

    Unless day to day law efforcement came from the King's Law based on Torah & not directly the Torah.

    >Just at a guess, how long do you think after the days of David would it have taken for this rule to be added?

    Who knows? Like I said it is interesting but anachronistic since we are not under the Law as Christian. It took four centuries to formally formulate the Trinity but the core seed was present in the Begining.

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  181. >>Two dudes each committing a separate Crime requiring each a separate set of witnesses."

    >Are you certain of that? I know the witnesses to any single crime had to be independent of one another, but was it also required that there be an independent set of witnesses for each separate charge? If you really are sure of that, I'll take your word for it.

    In modern times that would make sense. An Israelite King might make that a feature of his own laws. But these are religious laws. They are a bit strange.

    I studied a lot of this back when Ben Douglas was writing what I thought where some unfair polemics against the Talmud.

    He was still working for Bob Sungenis at the time & I thought the worst of him. Well long story short he left CAI. Became a critic of Sungenis' anti-Jewish extremism & I felt I didn't need to correct him on Judaism because I suspected he would be more responsible & he wasn't the villain I imagined him to be.

    He's a good egg. Fine loyal Traditionalist Catholic.

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  182. I'm Catholic & I accept the authority of Apostolic Tradition. End of Story.

    Ben, could you please remind us of the places where the Fathers tell us the Mishna is definitively authoritative? Thanks, that would be very helpful.

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  183. >Ben, could you please remind us of the places where the Fathers tell us the Mishna is definitively authoritative? Thanks, that would be very helpful.

    I never made such a claim.

    Peace.

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  184. @Tony and Ben:

    "Ben, could you please remind us of the places where the Fathers tell us the Mishna is definitively authoritative?"

    That will be tough, since the Mishna wasn't written until about a century after they were dead. But for whatever it's worth, some of them seem to show some acquaintance with the oral tradition that the Mishna codified. Notably, in the discussion of the scapegoat as a "type of Christ" in the Epistle of Barnabas, there's a reference to the tying on of the scarlet wool, a practice not explicitly described in Leviticus/Vayikra 16:7-8. That seems to imply an awareness that at least the Jews themselves regarded the oral tradition as authoritative, which is probably all Ben needs for his point.

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  185. What evangelistic tools do you utilize lately that are effective?

    The effectiveness or ineffectiveness of other tools has no bearing on whether natural law reasoning is an effective evangelistic tool. It isn't.

    Perhaps this tool is the only way those 5 or 6 "dudes" could be evangelized. This is just me, but if 1 "dude" happens to come to Christ as a result of this ineffective tool it avoids the label utter failure.

    "If [insert x here] only saves one life . . ."

    Seriously, context, my friend, context. Our host here seems to labour under the illusion that natural law reasoning is a world changer.

    There's also the question of how much of our limited time and resources we should spend on things, if our goal really is to re-evangelize the world.

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  186. I think there are people who could be impressed by a theistic person explaining the exact logic behind their beliefs.

    Lol.

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  187. @Thursday:

    "Our host here seems to labour under the illusion that natural law reasoning is a world changer."

    Hasn't it already been at least once?

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  188. @Thursday:

    "I think there are people who could be impressed by a theistic person explaining the exact logic behind their beliefs.

    Lol."

    What's the "lol" for? Such people most certainly exist; I'm one of them.

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  189. "The effectiveness or ineffectiveness of other tools has no bearing on whether natural law reasoning is an effective evangelistic tool. It isn't."

    I asked the question out of curiosity. I've seen some effective methods lately, involving never speaking of sin, or changing it's definition.

    I'll ask again.

    What evangelistic tools are you utilizing that are effective? One Christian to another.

    If you've got the some secret answer to all of our woes lay it on me.

    Eric

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  190. So the Oregon shop which refused to cater a gay wedding closed up shop after hate mail and threats:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/02/sweet-cakes-by-melissa-closed-_n_3856184.html?ir=Gay+Voices

    Here's a question for the folks here. Apparently, some investigators called anonymously to this bakery (and a few others) and asked for quotes to cater other things that Christians should find objectionable:

    "We wondered what other requests these cakemakers would decline to honor. So last week five WW reporters called these two bakeries anonymously to get price quotes for other occasions frowned upon by some Christians. Surprisingly, the people who answered the phone at each bakery were quite willing to provide baked goods for celebrations of divorces, unmarried parents, stem-cell research, non-kosher barbecues and pagan solstice parties."

    http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-20698-the_cake_wars.html


    ARE THESE GUYS HYPOCRITES?

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  191. That seems to imply an awareness that at least the Jews themselves regarded the oral tradition as authoritative, which is probably all Ben needs for his point.

    Scott, I am not confident that it is sufficient.

    Ben's thesis started with this:

    BTW there is no "death penalty for homosexuals in the Bible".

    Now, obviously, there is a death penalty stated in the Torah for homosexual activity, so what did he mean? He went on to suggest that the oral tradition, in the Mishna, made it so difficult to carry out such a death penalty that it would be effectively unused. And implicitly, (because that's what his thesis needs in order to be supported) that this represented a stance by the teachers of wisdom that such an act was not to be punished by death.

    I don't think such a conclusion can be drawn from his evidence. But I am willing to be shown I am wrong.

    My first concern is whether the Mishna rule cited, (assuming its soundness for the moment), constitutes a gloss on the basic validity of the death penalty as stated in the Torah, or rather on other matters associated with the death penalty - maybe on whether the cautions imposed are to prevent hatred in the punishers, rather than to prevent the punishment.

    My second concern is whether the Mishna rule is actually a sound, reliable guide on the meaning of the explicit Torah command or whether imperfections could have crept in to it over time. Seems to me that (1) although Jesus did, in one passage, tell us to observe what the Pharisees laid down, (2) he did HIMSELF ignore and violate some of those rules - or so Matt reports. So that Jesus' admonition would seem to be qualified. And in St. Matthew he seems to give us a specific guide for the core problem: why do you transgress the commandment of God with your tradition? It seems that there WERE SOME corruptions in the traditions, in some sense.

    So that gets to my final concern which is whether the Mishna is considered authoritative within the Catholic teaching of the Apostles and Fathers, who handed on Christ's teaching to us. Now, I am not hugely read in the Fathers, but I have had some small exposure. And I cannot recall a single passage of a Father of the Church treating the Mishna as authoritative.

    This includes those who demand steadfast submission to the Traditions of the Apostolic Fathers. Here is a typical presentation (admittedly much later), from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    The Council, as is evident, held that there are Divine traditions not contained in Holy Scripture, revelations made to the Apostles either orally by Jesus Christ or by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost and transmitted by the Apostles to the Church. Holy Scripture is therefore not the only theological source of the Revelation made by God to His Church. Side by side with Scripture there is tradition, side by side with the written revelation there is the oral revelation.

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  192. So, we are left with a possibility: that the only Tradition that has the definitive protection of the Holy Spirit, protecting from all error, is with the Tradition that was initiated with the Apostles, and within that Tradition we can rely on authentic "development of doctrine", but not on the Rabbinic tradition, which though is a good indicator of the meaning of doubtful passages, may not be wholly reliable. And if not wholly reliable, then we may legitimately question whether this rule from the Mishna actually shows us what the Bible and the Church teaches on the matter, or is rather one of the traditions of men that confounded God's commandments.

    Now, Ben said:

    according to Jewish Tradition

    This Tradition testified too

    Here is another fun Jewish Tradition.

    Burning is not according to Rabbinic Tradition the act of setting someone on fire.

    Tony what part of applying Newman's concept of development of doctrine do you not get? What you are describing above is not my position & not the Catholic view of development of doctrine (I doubt it's the Jewish view).

    I'm Catholic & I accept the authority of Apostolic Tradition.

    There is more if we look at the Patristic evidence


    I am just asking for the Patristic evidence, that the Rabinnic tradition is part of the sources of authentic Christian teaching of morals, because I don't know where it is. And I have never seen a Catholic author use a capital T for the Rabbinic or Jewish oral tradition.

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  193. I am also very interested in the intersection of revealed Tradition and, uh, non-revealed but still valuable Rabbinic tradition. But man, don't get me distracted - I have some math HW due tonight!

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  194. @Tony:

    I took Ben's original point to be that there was no death penalty for homosexuals as such in the Bible, but only a penalty for certain sorts of activity—and his secondary point to be that even that penalty was ringed round with so many requirements that it was rarely, if ever, put into practice. But I may be wrong, and if so, Ben can provide correction and/or elaboration.

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  195. @Tony:

    "I am just asking for the Patristic evidence, that the [Rabbinic] tradition is part of the sources of authentic Christian teaching of morals, because I don't know where it is."

    I don't think Ben is claiming that Rabbinic tradition is authoritative as regards Christian moral teaching. I take him to be saying that it's evidence of the existence of a line of historical teaching analogous, in Jewish history, to that of Church tradition in Christian history. So far as I can see (and of course subject to his correction), he's just saying that some understandings of Jewish law date pretty far back into Jewish history in much the same way that Church tradition dates back at least as far as Scripture in Christian history.

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  196. . . . and that, if we believe the Holy Spirit has kept Christian tradition on track, we should expect that He did so with Jewish tradition as well.

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  197. Scott you have been paying close attention. Good show!

    Tony not so much...........

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  198. >I took Ben's original point to be that there was no death penalty for homosexuals as such in the Bible, but only a penalty for certain sorts of activity—and his secondary point to be that even that penalty was ringed round with so many requirements that it was rarely, if ever, put into practice.

    That is 100% correct. That was my point.



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