Thursday, November 3, 2011

Reading Rosenberg, Part II

We saw in part I of this series that Alex Rosenberg’s new book The Atheist’s Guide to Reality is less about atheism than it is about scientism, the view that science alone gives us knowledge of reality.  This is so in two respects.  First, Rosenberg’s atheism is just one implication among others of his scientism, and the aim of the book is to spell out what else follows from scientism, rather than to say much in defense of atheism.  Second, that it follows from his scientism is thus the only argument Rosenberg really gives for atheism.  Thus, most of what he has to say ultimately rests on his scientism.  If he has no good arguments for scientism, then he has no good arguments either for atheism or for most of the other, more bizarre, conclusions he defends in the book.

So, does Rosenberg have any good arguments for scientism?  He does not.  In fact, he has only one argument for it, and it is quite awful.
 
What is scientism?

Before we look at the argument, let’s consider how Rosenberg characterizes scientism:

“Scientism”… is the conviction that the methods of science are the only reliable ways to secure knowledge of anything; that science’s description of the world is correct in its fundamentals; and that when “complete,” what science tells us will not be surprisingly different from what it tells us today. (pp. 6-7)

As I’ve noted elsewhere (e.g. here, here, and here), the trouble with the claim that science is the only reliable source of knowledge is that it is either self-defeating or trivial -- self-defeating if we narrowly construe what counts as “science” (since scientism is itself a metaphysical and epistemological theory and not a view that physics, chemistry, or any other particular science has established) and trivial if we construe “science” broadly (since in that case philosophy, and in particular metaphysics and epistemology, count as “sciences” no less than physics, chemistry, and the like do).  Rosenberg certainly avoids the second horn of this dilemma.  For his construal of what counts as “science” is very narrow indeed:

If we’re going to be scientistic, then we have to attain our view of reality from what physics tells us about it.  Actually, we’ll have to do more than that: we’ll have to embrace physics as the whole truth about reality. (p. 20)

To be sure, he does not deny that chemistry, biology, and neuroscience also give us knowledge.  But that is only because he thinks they are reducible to physics: “The physical facts fix all the facts.  [This] means that the physical facts constitute or determine or bring about all the rest of the facts.” (p. 26)

Now some naturalists will demur at this point, preferring a “non-reductive physicalism,” or “emergentism,” or some other such doctrine to Rosenberg’s radical reductionism.  As a number of chemists and philosophers of chemistry have argued in recent years, it is at the very least debatable whether even chemistry is really reducible to physics.  (For a useful overview of the literature, see chapter 5 of J. van Brakel’s book Philosophy of Chemistry.  Also useful is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on the philosophy of chemistry.)  Reductionism in biology is even more obviously open to challenge.  And of course, whether consciousness and human thought and action can be accounted for in physicalist terms is notoriously controversial even among naturalists themselves -- Fodor, McGinn, Searle, Nagel, Levine, Strawson, and Chalmers are just some of the prominent naturalistic philosophers of mind who have been critical of existing attempts by their fellow naturalists to explain the mind in purely materialistic terms.

Now I sympathize with such arguments, but I don’t think they establish an alternative form of naturalism.  For what they show, I would argue, is that higher-level features of material reality are no less real than the lower-level features, that the lower-level features are not somehow ontologically privileged.  And in that way they show (even if only inchoately, and even if their proponents often do not realize it) that something like an Aristotelian, holistic conception of material substances is correct after all.  Talk of “emergence,” “non-reductive physicalism,” and the like fudges this, because it insinuates that the lower-level features described by physics are still somehow more fundamental than the higher-level ones, even though the higher-level ones are acknowledged to be irreducible.  The latter, it is implied, somehow have to “emerge” from the former.  Such views are bound to sound obscurantist precisely because they amount to an unstable halfway position between reductionistic naturalism of the Rosenberg variety and traditional Aristotelian anti-reductionism.

I would say, then, that one has either to go the whole hog for Rosenberg-style reductionism or chuck out the whole naturalistic framework altogether (along with “emergence” and other such half-measures) and return to a full-blown Aristotelian metaphysics of material substances.  To that extent I think Rosenberg is right to hold that if someone is committed to scientism, then he should hold that “the physical facts fix all the facts.”  (Obviously some will dispute this conditional, but since it constitutes a point of agreement between Rosenberg and me, I won’t pursue it further here.)

If Rosenberg avoids the one horn of the dilemma, though, he thrusts himself headlong onto the other.  For how exactly has scientism been established by physics, chemistry, biology, or even neuroscience (if we allow for the sake of argument that neuroscience is reducible to physics)?  Does scientism make predictions that have been rigorously confirmed?  Is there something like a Michelson-Morley experiment that scientism makes sense of in a way no rival theory does?  To ask such questions is to answer them.  The fact is that neuroscience hasn’t come close even to discovering exactly what it is that goes on in the brain when scientists form hypotheses, construct theories, make predictive inferences, develop experimental tests, write up their results, submit them for peer review, etc.  That is to say, neuroscience hasn’t even explained the practice of science itself in purely neuroscientific categories, much less shown that no other practices can yield genuine knowledge.  Scientism remains what it has always been -- a purely metaphysical speculation and not an empirical theory at all, much less a confirmed empirical theory.

No doubt we will be treated at this point to some hand-waving to the effect that even if neuroscience has not “yet” fully explained scientific practice, neither has it turned up any evidence that there are sources of knowledge other than science.  But whether neuroscience is the only genuine source of knowledge about how we come to have knowledge is itself part of what is at issue in the dispute between scientism and its critics.  Hence, to argue “We have no neuroscientific evidence that there is any genuine source of knowledge other than science, therefore there are no grounds at all for believing that there are any such alternative sources” would simply be to beg the question.

Rosenberg’s Gem

All of this might seem moot if Rosenberg had a really powerful argument in favor of scientism.  But he does not.  David Stove once gave the ironic label “the Gem” to a Berkeleyan argument for idealism he regarded as especially bad.  Rosenberg’s argument for scientism gives Berkeley a run for his money, for it is a real Gem.  He states it several times in the book:

The technological success of physics is by itself enough to convince anyone with anxiety about scientism that if physics isn’t “finished,” it certainly has the broad outlines of reality well understood. (p. 23)

And it’s not just the correctness of the predictions and the reliability of technology that requires us to place our confidence in physics’ description of reality.  Because physics’ predictions are so accurate, the methods that produced the description must be equally reliable.  Otherwise, our technological powers would be a miracle.  We have the best of reasons to believe that the methods of physics -- combining controlled experiment and careful observation with mainly mathematical requirements on the shape theories can take -- are the right ones for acquiring all knowledge.  Carving out some area of “inquiry” or “belief” as exempt from exploration by the methods of physics is special pleading or self-deception.  (p. 24)

The phenomenal accuracy of its prediction, the unimaginable power of its technological application, and the breathtaking extent and detail of its explanations are powerful reasons to believe that physics is the whole truth about reality. (p. 25)

Rosenberg’s argument, then, is essentially this:

1. The predictive power and technological applications of physics are unparalleled by those of any other purported source of knowledge.

2. Therefore what physics reveals to us is all that is real.

How bad is this argument?  About as bad as this one:

1. Metal detectors have had far greater success in finding coins and other metallic objects in more places than any other method has.

2. Therefore what metal detectors reveal to us (coins and other metallic objects) is all that is real.

Metal detectors are keyed to those aspects of the natural world susceptible of detection via electromagnetic means (or whatever).  But however well they perform this task -- indeed, even if they succeeded on every single occasion they were deployed -- it simply wouldn’t follow for a moment that there are no aspects of the natural world other than the ones they are sensitive to.  Similarly, what physics does -- and there is no doubt that it does it brilliantly -- is to capture those aspects of the natural world susceptible of the mathematical modeling that makes precise prediction and technological application possible.  But here too, it simply doesn’t follow for a moment that there are no other aspects of the natural world. 

Those who reject Rosenberg’s scientism, then, are not guilty of “special pleading or self-deception,” Rosenberg’s condescending bluster notwithstanding.  Rather, they are (unlike Rosenberg) simply capable of recognizing a brazen non sequitur when they see it.  Unfortunately, condescending bluster is all Rosenberg ever offers in addition to his favorite non sequitur.  Here’s some more of it:

“Scientism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their theistic cake and dine at the table of science’s bounties, too.  Opponents of scientism would never charge their cardiologists or auto mechanics or software engineers with “scientism” when their health, travel plans, or Web surfing are in danger.  But just try subjecting their nonscientific mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to scientific scrutiny.  The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “scientism.” (p. 6)

According to Rosenberg, then, unless you agree that science is the only genuine source of knowledge, you cannot consistently believe that it gives us any genuine knowledge.  This is about as plausible as saying that unless you think metal detectors alone can detect physical objects, then you cannot consistently believe that they detect any physical objects at all.  Perhaps someone who thinks that metal detectors give us exhaustive knowledge of the world could write up a Metallicist’s Guide to Reality and “argue” as follows:

“Metallicism” is the pejorative label given to our positive view by those who really want to have their stone, water, wood, and plastic cakes and dine at the table of metallic bounties, too.  Opponents of metallicism would never charge their metal detector-owning friends with “metallicism” when they need help finding lost car keys or loose change in the sofa.  But just try subjecting their nonmetallic mores and norms, their music or metaphysics, their literary theories or politics to metallurgical scrutiny.  The immediate response of outraged humane letters is “metallicism.”

Of course, “metallicism” is preposterous.  But so is Rosenberg’s scientism.

Those beholden to scientism are bound to protest that the analogy is no good, on the grounds that metal detectors detect only part of reality while physics detects the whole of it.  But such a reply would simply beg the question once again, for whether physics really does describe the whole of reality is precisely what is at issue.

I am being hard on Rosenberg, and he deserves it for putting forward such transparently bad arguments, and with such arrogance.  But it is only fair to note that he is hardly alone in the delusion that his Gem is some kind of knockdown argument for scientism.  One hears this stupid non sequitur over and over and over again when arguing with New Atheist types.  It is implicit every time some Internet Infidel asks triumphantly: “Where are the predictive successes and technological applications of philosophy or theology?”  This is about as impressive as our fictional “metallicist” smugly demanding: “Where are the metal-detecting successes of gardening, cooking, and painting?” -- and then high-fiving his fellow metallicists when we are unable to offer any examples, thinking that he has established that plants, food, works of art, and indeed anything non-metallic are all non-existent.  For why on earth should we believe that only methods capable of detecting metals give us genuine access to reality?  And why on earth should we believe that if something is real, then it must be susceptible of the mathematically precise prediction and technological application characteristic of physics?  I submit that there is no answer to this question that doesn’t beg the question.

As always, earlier generations of skeptics were wiser than the intellectually backward Dawkins generation.  For instance, Bertrand Russell was well aware that, far from giving us an exhaustive picture of reality, physics in fact gives us is very nearly the opposite, and is unintelligible unless there is more to reality than what it reveals to us:

It is not always realised how exceedingly abstract is the information that theoretical physics has to give.  It lays down certain fundamental equations which enable it to deal with the logical structure of events, while leaving it completely unknown what is the intrinsic character of the events that have the structure.  We only know the intrinsic character of events when they happen to us.  Nothing whatever in theoretical physics enables us to say anything about the intrinsic character of events elsewhere.  They may be just like the events that happen to us, or they may be totally different in strictly unimaginable ways.  All that physics gives us is certain equations giving abstract properties of their changes.  But as to what it is that changes, and what it changes from and to—as to this, physics is silent. (My Philosophical Development, p. 13)

Moreover, physics’ tremendous success at prediction and technological application is precisely the result of its deliberate neglect of any aspect of reality that does not fit its mathematically-oriented methods.  Early modern thinkers like Bacon and Descartes sought to reorient science in a practical, this-worldly, technological direction.  Mathematics facilitated this; aspects of the world that couldn’t be mathematically modeled were a distraction.  Hence they were relegated to the status of mere “secondary qualities,” or treated as features that are the proper study of metaphysics rather than physics.  That was less a metaphysical discovery, though, than a methodological stipulation.  If you set out to study only those aspects of reality that might be rigorously predictable and controllable, then you are bound to find that those are the only ones you discover.  But it is preposterous to pretend that you have thereby shown that there are no other aspects of reality, just as it would be preposterous for the “metallicist” to pretend that his exclusive focus on those objects that might be detected electromagnetically shows that there are no non-metals.  (See The Last Superstition for more detailed discussion of this theme.)

What Rosenberg and others beholden to scientism have done, then, is simply to confuse method with metaphysics (an occupational hazard of post-Galilean science and post-Cartesian philosophy, as E. A. Burtt warned in his classic book The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Physical Science).  The fallacious blurring of epistemology and metaphysics is, of course, also a feature of many idealist arguments, which is why Stove thought they merited our scorn.  All the more appropriately, then, might we label Rosenberg’s argument a “Gem.”

Scientism versus teleology

Among the features of the world physics deliberately ignores for its purposes are those that involve final causality.  As Rosenberg writes:

Ever since physics hit its stride with Newton, it has excluded purposes, goals, ends, or designs in nature.  It firmly bans all explanations that are teleological(p. 40)

As the words “exclusion” and “ban” indicate, though, this is, yet again, merely a methodological stipulation.  By itself it tells us nothing at all about whether teleology is real.  Again, if the designer of a metal detector says “For purposes of metal detection, let’s ignore every feature of the objects we’re after except their electromagnetic properties,” then he is naturally going to pay no attention to whether this or that object is a coin, or a key, or a thumbtack, or even whether it is made of iron as opposed to nickel.  But it obviously does not follow that the only real properties of the objects the metal detector finds are their electromagnetic properties, and that we should be eliminativists about coins, keys, thumbtacks, iron, and nickel.  Similarly, since teleological features cannot be modeled mathematically, the early moderns – thinkers who, following Bacon and Descartes, wanted to turn science in a practical, this-worldly direction and thus toward a focus on prediction and control – decided to ignore them.  But (as it cannot be repeated too frequently) it simply doesn’t follow that such features do not exist.

Rosenberg no doubt thinks an appeal to Ockham’s razor justifies such an inference.  He writes: 

Since Newton 350 years ago, [physics] has always succeeded in providing a nonteleological theory to deal with each of the new explanatory and experimental challenges it has faced.  That track record is tremendously strong evidence for concluding that its still-unsolved problems will submit to nonteleological theories. (p. 40)

The implication is that since physics hasn’t ever needed to postulate final causes, we can infer with confidence that it will not need to do so in the future; and if it does not need to do so, the principle of parsimony should lead us to conclude that final causes don’t exist.  

But there are several problems with such an argument.  For one thing, Rosenberg’s main reason for denying the existence of teleology, plans, purposes, designs, intentionality, and the like at the biological level and even at the level of the human mind, is that physics has ruled teleology and cognate notions out of science altogether.  But in that case an appeal to Ockham’s razor of the sort just considered would lead Rosenberg into a “No True Scotsman” fallacy.  He will be saying, in effect: Physics can explain everything that exists without appealing to teleology.  So, by Ockham’s razor, teleology must not be a real feature of the world.  Of course, biological functions, human thought and action, and the like cannot be understood except in teleological terms.  But that just shows that they must not really exist, because teleology doesn’t exist, because physics can explain everything that exists without it!

Another problem is that something like teleology is necessary to explain the facts that physics describes, at least if we regard any of them as embodying genuine causal relations.  That is, in any event, the view of a number of contemporary philosophers of science and metaphysicians – George Molnar, C. B. Martin, John Heil, and other “new essentialist” writers – who have no theological ax to grind, but who regard dispositions as “directed at” their manifestations and thus as exhibiting what Molnar calls a kind of “physical intentionality.”  This is (as historian of philosophy Walter Ott has noted) essentially a return to an Aristotelian-Scholastic understanding of final causality as a precondition of the intelligibility of efficient causality.  Unless we suppose that an efficient cause A inherently “points” beyond itself to its typical effect (or range of effects) B as toward an end or goal, we have no way of making sense of why it is that A reliably does in fact generate B rather than C, D, or no effect at all.

Rosenberg doesn’t see the possibility of such a view because he has only the crudest conception of teleology -- he evidently thinks that a teleological explanation is one that simply postulates that “God designed it that way.”  No one familiar with the Aristotelian and Scholastic traditions would make such a mistake, though someone who supposes that teleology and natural theology stand or fall with Paley-style “design arguments” is likely to.  (As I have noted before, Rosenberg’s knowledge of natural theology seems to derive mostly from whatever was in the anthology his undergrad PHIL 101 teacher was using.)  

Rosenberg also supposes that the second law of thermodynamics is incompatible with the existence of teleology.  For “the second law tells us that the universe is headed to complete disorder” (in particular, heat death) and “no purpose or goal can be secured permanently under such circumstances” (p. 41).  But the existence of teleology doesn’t require that an end or goal be realized permanently.  And insofar as the second law of thermodynamics describes causal regularities -- and in particular a tendency toward disorder -- it would itself be an instance of teleology, not a counterexample to it.

(The subject of teleology is one I have devoted much attention to elsewhere , e.g. in chapter 6 of The Last Superstition, chapter 2 of Aquinas, and in a great many blog posts on the dispute between Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophy and “Intelligent Design” theory.  I won’t repeat myself here -- interested readers are directed to these sources.)

So, Rosenberg has no good arguments for scientism, and thus no good arguments either for atheism or for the other, more bizarre conclusions he derives from scientism.  As we will see in the remaining posts in this series, some of those conclusions are in any event incoherent, and thus constitute a reductio ad absurdum of the premises that lead to them.  

Before turning to these conclusions, though, it will be worthwhile examining Rosenberg’s brief attempt to counter kalam-style arguments for God as the cause of the Big Bang, with some alternative cosmological speculations of his own.  We’ll do so in the next post in this series.

[Addendum: A reader calls attention to this critique of Rosenberg by Timothy Williamson, which dovetails with some of the points made above.  A key line: “Those most confident of being undogmatic and possessing the scientific spirit may thereby become all the less able to detect dogmatism and failures of the scientific spirit in themselves.”]

798 comments:

  1. Matteo:

    If the LNC fails to hold, then it is safe to conclude that it holds at all times.

    If we ever come across a situation where the LNC fails to hold, then we will probably be completely baffled by it, and it will seem incoherent. And yet, the fact that it has happened means that the ordinary rules of logic simply would fail to apply, especially if the rules governing that bizarre phenomena are different from the rules that govern all phenomena that we have, thus far, experienced.

    I would not rule out such a state of affairs as necessarily impossible. Logic is built from the regularities that we observe in the natural world, and has become so central to our conceptual framework that it is literally inconceivable for it to be invalid in any circumstances. However, if there are aspects of reality that operate according to different regularities, then our logic would be inapplicable, despite the fact that this is currently inconceivable.

    I have no idea if this is true, and I hope that it isn’t, but I can’t just say that because my mind finds the idea incoherent, then it is necessarily incoherent in reality. Reality might be more bizarre than we can possibly imagine. On the other hand, if you believe that our minds have the capacity to penetrate by virtue of its use of logic and reason to every aspect of reality, then certainly such a state of affairs is actually impossible. My problem is that I have no idea whether our minds have this capacity, and actually neither does anyone else, but it is taken as an axiomatic truth, which is actually an assumption to get the whole game going, and not a deduction at all, probably because all deduction presumes the LNC as being valid.

    In a sense, what this comes down to is whether you think that we can justifiably talk about aspects of reality that we have no understanding or experience of, and begin to describe its properties and principles. It also depends on whether you can argue that because we cannot help but understand the universe according to certain rules, then that necessarily means that all of reality must be structured according to our mental rules.

    I honestly do not know.

    ReplyDelete
  2. grodrigues,

    "But I forgive you, as I each time I read your previous post I give a good chuckle. "We don't need a logical explanation of why light is both particle and wave or that we have two eyes."?? Hilarious, simply hilarious."

    You have a few nasty habits yourself. Step out of the audience for a moment and explain how it is *logically* consistent for light to be both wave and particle at the same time. How is it *logically* consistent for it to interfere with itself -- like a thrown rock could run smack into itself? I'm not the first to note that QM defies logic, you know.

    "As far as the question itself, that is, if it can be logically proved that 'an oxygen atom combined with two hydrogen atoms should have the properties of water' it depends on what you mean by logically prove. If it means what I think you mean by it (but I am guessing here) then the answer is no."

    If it cannot be logically proved, logical consistency is a useless concept when it comes to explaining how the world works. The universe doesn't care about our logic. It has no obligation to conform to it. We are the ones who have to conform to the world as it is. That's essentially what I'm saying. Your assertion that 'logical inconsistency' cannot happen is based on after-the-fact adjustments of what it means to be logically consistent. At one time it was logically inconsistent that the world was round. "Logic' told us we would fall off the other side. Didn't happen.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Salaam (Peace),

    Thank you for the wonderful post Professor Feser. Insh'Allah you will write another book dedicated exclusively to this subject, though your "The Last Superstition" was already a marvelous addition to this discussion.

    One would have thought by now that Sir Karl Popper and Thomas Khun would have done away with Scientism, but it appears more and more that the so called vanguard of rationality have yet to read them or take them seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  4. @grodrigues:

    “Premise (1) is completely circular: what do the physical sciences search for? The physical. What is the physical? What the physical sciences search for.”

    From a naturalist’s point of view the causal closure of the physical universe seems reasonable. It’s rather like a continuity assumption in preference theory — if someone prefers 1.9 units of A to one unit of B, and 1.99 units of A to one unit of B, and 1.999 units, and so on, then surely he’d prefer two units of A to one unit of B. Intuitively, with enough 9s, 1.999… should be pretty well identical to 2.

    Similarly, let’s assume that some immaterial event A has causal impact on the physical universe, leading eventually to material event Z. If by assumption space and time are infinitely divisible, we can chop up the sequence backward from Z and get as close as we wish to A with purely physical causes. (If we can’t — if there is some intermediate immaterial cause — then redefine that to be A.)

    Then, again intuitively, it seems that once we get close enough then some physical cause B should be more or less identical to A.

    But causal closure is nevertheless still an assumption, and just as continuity of preferences is empirically false (at least generally), causal closure may be false as well.

    ReplyDelete
  5. djindra wrote,


    "At one time it was logically inconsistent that the world was round. "Logic' told us we would fall off the other side. Didn't happen. "

    Even assuming that that was some kind of a largely petulant and throw-away remark, I still cannot believe you said it with any hope of buttressing your argument.

    You've read Heath's 'Greek Astronomy' at some time, no doubt? Even if you haven't you should know better.

    ReplyDelete
  6. @djindra:

    "How is it *logically* consistent for it to interfere with itself -- like a thrown rock could run smack into itself? I'm not the first to note that QM defies logic, you know."

    I do not know what you mean by "interfere with itself". It is you who is claiming that QM is logically inconsistent, so the burden of proof is on you. I will repeat for the last time: if QM is logically inconsistent, then it follows that it can prove anything at all, so it lacks any predictive power. If you do indeed have a proof, let us hear it; you will earn world-wide fame overnight. Of course, to prove it you will have to know the basics of logic such as what is a logical inconsistency, but I am sure that is no obstacle for you. Either way, put up or shut up.

    And when physicists say that QM "defies logic" they are not saying that there is a logical inconsistency, they are saying that it defies our ordinary intuitions.

    "The universe doesn't care about our logic. It has no obligation to conform to it. We are the ones who have to conform to the world as it is. That's essentially what I'm saying."

    I know that that is what you are saying. I also know that it is incoherent meaningless babble.

    "Your assertion that 'logical inconsistency' cannot happen is based on after-the-fact adjustments of what it means to be logically consistent. At one time it was logically inconsistent that the world was round."

    When was it logically inconsistent that the world was round? This is news to me. Can we expect any evidence from you, or is this just one more assertion without any argument to back it up, as you are so fond of doing? No, our physical theories *cannot* be logically inconsistent for the reasons I have explained already -- three times, if I am not mistaken.

    But by all means, continue to entertain us with the consumptive productions of your wit.

    ReplyDelete
  7. dguller

    As Matteo showed, denying (or doubting in your case) the law of non-contradiction means nothing.

    Forgive me if you feel you've answered this already but I have to ask: why you do not doubt all knowledge? It would follow that one who doubts the LNC must doubt the principle of identity and so nothing could be known determinately.

    ReplyDelete
  8. It makes no sense to restrict the LNC. Lets say there is an entity A to which LNC does not apply.

    This statement is therefore true: "LNC does not apply to A". Since LNC does not apply, its negation is also true, i.e. "LNC does apply to A".

    The LNC is one of the most unrestricted principles. It applies to everything we can think of.

    This poses a problem for you epistemology, dguller. We do not arrive at the LNC by induction from the senses, since the LNC applies to entities of which we have no sense experience.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Dguller,

    No one can reach you in the castle of absurdity if you go on positing a "deeper reality" where the LNC doesn't apply. No can refute this claim, because no one can contradict you.

    That being said:

    If we ever come across a situation where the LNC fails to hold, then we will probably be completely baffled by it, and it will seem incoherent.

    Suppose this does happen. Or were to happen. How would we know? What would give us the ability to say "In this moment, the LNC was done away with!" The answer is nothing. Meaning, it wouldn't count as a verification of your claim; it couldn't be used as evidence. Do you start to see why this is recognized as a necessary truth? It is quite simply the difference between sanity and insanity. No biggie.

    ReplyDelete
  10. dguller,

    "Why is conceivability a criterion for truth about all aspects of the universe?"

    My point is that what you say doesn't make any sense. At first glance it seems like you are putting forth a position, but when thought out rationally, you are saying "perhaps it is possible that basf dfasdf asdf asdfadf sasdf".

    If I try to speak about something that defies the law of non-contradiction and it makes no sense whatsoever, why is it that when I talk about the possibility of that "basf dfasdf asdf asdfadf sasdf" that it somehow makes more sense than no sense at all?

    You cannot properly communicate your position. It's not conceivable and therefore not understandable and therefore we have no ability to think it possible. To think it possible or not possible is nothing other than nonsense. No discernible meaning.

    So we are wasting our time. Well, sort of. Thank you for your thoughts!

    ReplyDelete
  11. dguller,

    "I have no idea if this is true, and I hope that it isn’t, but I can’t just say that because my mind finds the idea incoherent, then it is necessarily incoherent in reality."

    If your mind finds the idea incoherent, what idea exactly are you putting forth? Ideas need to make sense in order to put them forth.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Let's shift gears into an area that might be more fruitful to express some of my concerns about the limits of expressibility and understanding.

    Aquinas has the doctrine of analogy to explain how we can talk about God's properties and qualities even though his properties and qualities are fundamentally different from anything that we can really understand.

    I have always thought this puzzling, because for an analogy to hold between a divine property and a created property, then there must be a commonality between them that has a univocal meaning. However, Aquinas denies that this is possible, saying that when talking about God, one can use neither univocal nor equivocal sense, but only analogical sense.

    So, I struggle to understand how we can talk about God at all. I think if my fellow seekers on this site can help me work my way through this idea, then maybe some of my concerns about the limits of expressibility and comprehension can be clarified.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  13. Dguller,

    Aquinas has the doctrine of analogy to explain how we can talk about God's properties and qualities even though his properties and qualities are fundamentally different from anything that we can really understand...for an analogy to hold between a divine property and a created property, then there must be a commonality between them that has a univocal meaning. However, Aquinas denies that this is possible, saying that when talking about God, one can use neither univocal nor equivocal sense, but only analogical sense.

    So, I struggle to understand how we can talk about God at all.


    We've gone down this road before, and I showed you where Aquinas explicitly states that the type of analogy he is applying to the divine attributes is not the one you say it is; i.e., two analogates with a univocal predicate. (BTW, that would be QDP, Question VII, Art. VII, Obj. 8, contrary argument) This is because that type of analogy only applies to beings in the same genus. Which means for your criticism to work, we'd have to be considering God as a created being, which for obvious reasons is silly.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    "Two objects again are analogous on account of a relation which they have not to a third object, but to each other. Remedy, nourishment, and external appearance are termed healthy on account of the direct relation they bear to the health of the person. Here health is the basis of the analogy, and is an example of what the Schoolmen call summum analogatum (Cf. St. Thomas, ib.)

    This second sort of analogy is twofold. Two things are related by a direct proportion of degree, distance, or measure: e.g., 6 is in direct proportion to 3, of which it is the double; or the healthiness of a remedy is directly related to, and directly measured by, the health which it produces. This analogy is called analogy of proportion. Or, the two objects are related one to the other not by a direct proportion, but by means of another and intermediary relation: for instance, 6 and 4 are analogous in this sense that 6 is the double of 3 as 4 is of 2, or 6:4::3:2. The analogy between corporal and intellectual vision is of this sort, because intelligence is to the mind what the eye is to the body. This kind of analogy is based on the proportion of proportion; it is called analogy of proportionality."


    Does this mean we are dropping the LNC?

    ReplyDelete
  14. Josh:

    Thanks for reposting that information. I couldn’t get into it the last time you posted it.

    So, the semantic content of God’s attributes are supposed to be understood by the second type of analogy, i.e. the analogy of proportion. But doesn’t that concept of analogy still rely upon some common property between the two things being compared? I mean, look at the examples that were given: “e.g., 6 is in direct proportion to 3, of which it is the double; or the healthiness of a remedy is directly related to, and directly measured by, the health which it produces.” 6 and 3 both share the common univocal property of being a number, for example. So, I think that they are all still subsumed under the general concept of analogy as X is like Y iff X and Y both have (at least) one univocal property P, but are categorized according to the different types of P. And if that is true, then Aquinas’ statements that God can never be understood univocally means that he cannot be understood analogously either. And if he cannot be understood univocally, equivocally, or analogously, then he cannot be understood period.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  15. dguller

    "So, I think that they are all still subsumed under the general concept of analogy as X is like Y iff X and Y both have (at least) one univocal property P, but are categorized according to the different types of P."

    I think this is interesting in the case of 6 and 3 but I can't make it work with intelligence and eye; what do you say is the univocal P in the last analogy Josh quoted?

    ReplyDelete
  16. @dguller,

    Some thoughts and analogies you might want to consider. What about 6 in direct proportion to the number Infinity?

    Infinity is an analogous number in so much is refers to every potential number or the counting of all numbers without stopping.

    But it is not an unequivocal number since you can never say "Infinity! Ready or not here I come" after counting to it.

    But even in math we can know something about Infinity but we ultimately can't conceive of every single number.

    "then he cannot be understood period."

    What do you mean here by "understood"?

    Now I will leave you to Josh.

    Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Jack:

    I think this is interesting in the case of 6 and 3 but I can't make it work with intelligence and eye; what do you say is the univocal P in the last analogy Josh quoted?

    I think a case can be made for something along the lines of “perception of external information by the mind”. In the case of intelligence, the perception is of concepts and formal properties, and in the case of vision, the perception is of external physical objects.

    Just to flesh out my ideas a bit more, my fuller argument is that if my definition of “analogy” is correct, and it may not be, then there must be a common property P between two analogous terms X and Y. How are we to understand P? According to Aquinas, we can understand P either univocally, equivocally, or analogously. He denies that P can be understood univocally when it is used to describe God. He denies that P can be understood equivocally, because then no concrete meaning can be understood at all.

    That leaves the option for P to be understood analogously. But what does that even mean here? For P to be understood analogously, then it would have to be understood in comparison with something else. And if P is to be understood as based upon another analogy, then we are stuck at the beginning, because that analogy will have to be understood either univocally, equivocally, or analogously, and we are stuck in an infinite regress. The only way out is to say that the regress of analogous meanings comes to stop at a univocal meaning, which Aquinas says is impossible.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Ben:

    Infinity is an analogous number in so much is refers to every potential number or the counting of all numbers without stopping.

    But we understand “infinity” on the basis of our understanding of “number”, as in “numbers, without end”. Try to understand infinity without any concept of quantity or degree. It just doesn’t seem to work. So, even in this case, there is a common property involved of “number” or “quantity”.

    ReplyDelete
  19. 6 and 3 both share the common univocal property of being a number, for example.

    Yes, but that's not what is being analogized in that example. It's a relation of proportionality.

    Copleston might shed some more light here (forgive the long citation):

    "Now, it is impossible to predicate anything analogically of God and creatures in the same way that it is possible to predicate being of substance and accident, for God and creatures have no mutual real relationship: creatures have a real relation to God, but God has no real relation to creatures...It does not follow, however, that there can be no analogy of proportion between God and creatures. Though God is not related to creatures by a real relation, creatures have a real relation to God, and we are able to apply the same term to God and creatures in virtue of that relation. There are perfections which are not bound up with matter and which do not necessarily imply any defect or imperfection in the being of which they are predicated. Being, wisdom and goodness are examples of such perfections. Obviously we gain knowledge of being or goodness or wisdom from creatures; but it does not follow that these perfections exist primarily in creatures and only secondarily in God, or that they are predicated primarily of creatures and only secondarily of God. On the contrary, goodness, for instance, exists primarily in God, who is the infinite goodness and the cause of all creaturely goodness, and it is predicated primarily of God and only secondarily of creatures, even though creaturely goodness is what we first come to know. Analogy of proportion is possible, then, in virtue of the creature's relation and likeness to God."

    --History of Philosophy, Vol. II, p.354-5

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dguller,

    Your definition of analogy is one valid definition: the analogy of attribution. But as stated by Aquinas, that can only apply to beings of the same genus. We graciously concede that an analogy of attribution applied to the divine attributes is invalid for the reasons you are stating.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Dguller,

    I think a case can be made for something along the lines of “perception of external information by the mind”. In the case of intelligence, the perception is of concepts and formal properties, and in the case of vision, the perception is of external physical objects.

    But still, there is not a univocal P applied. Here is Copleston again:

    "What corporeal vision is to the eye, that intellectual apprehension or vision is to the mind. There is a certain similarity between the relation of the eye to its vision and the relation of the mind to its intellectual apprehension, a similarity which enables us to speak of 'vision' in both cases. We apply the word 'vision' in the two cases neither univocally nor purely equivocally, but analogically."

    ReplyDelete
  22. Josh:

    Thanks for the Copleston quote. I understood it to state that that the divine qualities primarily exist in God’s nature in a perfect form, and only secondarily in creatures in an imperfect form, and that the Thomist doctrine of analogy is rooted in this relationship, which goes from God to creatures, and not vice versa. So, when we are talking about God’s qualities, we base them upon our imperfect understanding based upon our study of creation, and then infer their presence in God, but cannot actually understand their content in God, because of our finitude and imperfections, which inhibit our understanding of these divine matters.

    A few questions about this explanation.

    First, doesn’t it presuppose some God’s eye view from which the relationship between God and creatures is perspicacious? And isn’t that impossible, because that would presuppose clarity and univocality that is considered impermissible?

    Second, when one says that “goodness exists in God”, then what exactly do you mean by “goodness”? If you cannot use this term univocally when discussing God, then how can you talk about the relationship between divine goodness and created goodness? You seem to be saying that one cannot talk about divine properties in a clear way, except in this case, but really we cannot, but we can here, except that we cannot, and it keeps equivocating without end.

    Again, it seems that there are limits set and perpetually crossed in an unstable dialectic.

    Your definition of analogy is one valid definition: the analogy of attribution. But as stated by Aquinas, that can only apply to beings of the same genus. We graciously concede that an analogy of attribution applied to the divine attributes is invalid for the reasons you are stating.

    What other type of analogy does not meet the definition that I mentioned?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Josh:

    Just to further some points that I made.

    There is a framework in which God has properties P(G) and creatures have properties P(C). From the divine standpoint, P(G) is primary and P(C) is secondary and derivative from P(G). From the human standpoint, we do not have a clear and univocal understanding of P(G), but only of P(C). However, it is claimed that we can understand P(G) by analogy with P(C).

    According to my understanding of “analogy”, in order to P(G) and P(C) to be understood analogously, there must be some common P between them in order for one to be like the other. Otherwise, we are not talking about analogy at all, but about something else entirely. And even if one uses the idea of “analogy of proportion”, then in order for one to say that “X is greater than Y”, then X must have more P than Y in order to be greater, and thus X and Y must share P in order for a proportionate relationship to occur at all. Again, we are stuck, because if P cannot be understood univocally, then we are stuck with equivocation or infinite regress.

    Again, it just seems that one never gets any traction and the situation is akin to trying to fire a bullet at the moon. The bullet sure goes high in the sky in the direction of the moon, but it inevitably falls to the earth, failing to reach its target. That is how I understand all talk of the divine, including the Thomist type, because it sets firm limits that it perpetually transgresses, and thus becomes incoherent.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Josh:

    But still, there is not a univocal P applied

    But there is. The univocal P is “apprehension of external information”. That is the common property involved in the analogy between the intellect and vision. Without it, the analogy makes no sense at all.

    ReplyDelete
  25. dguller

    "But there is. The univocal P is “apprehension of external information”."

    Josh will know better than me, but have you considered you might be equivocating on 'information' here?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Josh:

    A possible solution would be to say that God and creatures can share a univocal property P to serve as the basis for an analogous relationship, but that God has other properties that we simply cannot understand in any way. That could preserve the difference in degree with regards to P, i.e. God has infinite P while creatures have finite P, and still preserve God’s transcendence by saying that he has properties that are beyond our understanding, even if P is univocally comprehensible.

    Would that work?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Jack:

    Josh will know better than me, but have you considered you might be equivocating on 'information' here?

    I don’t think so. Even under the Aristotelian framework, it is the entry of external forms into the mind (i.e. in-FORM-ation), and the only difference is whether they enter directly into the mind or indirectly to the mind via the visual apparatus. Either way, they still share this common property, no?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Dguller,

    I understood it to state that that the divine qualities primarily exist in God’s nature in a perfect form, and only secondarily in creatures in an imperfect form, and that the Thomist doctrine of analogy is rooted in this relationship...

    I think your summary is elegantly put. Now one at a time:

    First, doesn’t it presuppose some God’s eye view from which the relationship between God and creatures is perspicacious? And isn’t that impossible, because that would presuppose clarity and univocality that is considered impermissible?

    If by "God's eye view" you mean objective metaphysical insight, then yes, it does suppose that. Most especially of the sort found in the principle of proportionate causality, that "whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause" (E. Feser, 7/4/11). I don't see why this should trouble you though; it's still something we know from the world around us...

    Second, when one says that “goodness exists in God”, then what exactly do you mean by “goodness”?

    The key is that "goodness" does not necessarily imply imperfection. I'll mess around with Copleston again:

    "We do not predicate [goodness] of God merely because God is the cause of all [good] things, for in that case we might just as well call God a stone, as being the cause of all stones; but we call Him [good] because creatures, God's effects, manifest God, are like to Him, and because a pure perfection like [goodness] can be formally predicated of Him" (subbed 'wisdom' with 'goodness')

    Our goodness is an imitation of His goodness.

    Again, it seems that there are limits set and perpetually crossed in an unstable dialectic.

    Without a doubt! This stuff is hard.

    What other type of analogy does not meet the definition that I mentioned?

    The type where the analogates are related to each other by virtue of a relation (as opposed to a third object, or univocal P), in this case, the relation of creatures to God. These are the analogy of proportion and the analogy of proportionality, seen in the corporeal/intellectual analogy.

    ReplyDelete
  29. dguller

    "Either way, they still share this common property, no?"

    Well, I'm really not sure about that. I wonder if you aren't using 'information' ambiguously or equivocally in this way:

    corporeal vision: information = geospatial arrangement of matter

    intellectual vision: information = knowledge of (say) logical relation

    They're not unequivocally the same thing when unpacked and isn't that the point? But like I said before, Josh'll know.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dguller,

    The univocal P is “apprehension of external information”. That is the common property involved in the analogy between the intellect and vision.

    Immaterial "information" and material "information" belong to different genera. They are beings of a different genus. An analogy of attribution applied to the eye/intellect analogy fails by your own criticism!

    ReplyDelete
  31. Jack (et. al.),

    I doubt you need my help. I'm just coming to this myself, researching on the fly...

    ReplyDelete
  32. Josh:

    If by "God's eye view" you mean objective metaphysical insight, then yes, it does suppose that. Most especially of the sort found in the principle of proportionate causality, that "whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause" (E. Feser, 7/4/11). I don't see why this should trouble you though; it's still something we know from the world around us...

    It only troubles me if the principle of proportionate causality cannot possibly involve univocal meaning of the properties involved.

    Our goodness is an imitation of His goodness.

    I understand that, but we are still left with the problem that when we start to talk about his goodness, then we start going round and round in circles -- his goodness is like ours, except that it isn’t, except that it is, and on and on -- which you seem to agree occurs: Without a doubt! This stuff is hard. So, what coherence is there to limits that aren’t limits? It all seems to ultimately become incoherent when taken at face value, and only coherent if equivocation is involved. It is kind of like Feser’s critique of Dennett in TLS. ;)

    The type where the analogates are related to each other by virtue of a relation (as opposed to a third object, or univocal P), in this case, the relation of creatures to God. These are the analogy of proportion and the analogy of proportionality, seen in the corporeal/intellectual analogy.

    But as I mentioned, even an analogy of proportion involves a difference in degree of some shared property. If X has more P than Y, then they both must share P, no?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Jack:

    They're not unequivocally the same thing when unpacked and isn't that the point?

    They don’t have to be the same thing. If they were the same thing, then analogy would be unnecessary, because identity would be the relationship of choice.

    What they share is the common property of the acquisition by the mind of external information. Sure, the type of information is different when it comes from the intellect versus the senses, but it is all still information outside ourselves entering our mind. That’s all one needs for the analogy to get going.

    What do you think? Does that make sense?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Josh:

    Immaterial "information" and material "information" belong to different genera. They are beings of a different genus. An analogy of attribution applied to the eye/intellect analogy fails by your own criticism!

    They don’t have to share every property in common, but only (at least) one. In this case, they share the property of external information consciously entering the mind. Whether that information is immaterial or material is … well … immaterial. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  35. Dguller,

    In this case, they share the property of external information entering the mind.

    But the analogy is about the way they process external information, and there is no common property between them for that. Otherwise, there would be no essential distinction between material and immaterial knowing...

    ReplyDelete
  36. dguller

    "What do you think? Does that make sense?"

    It does make sense but if you are correct then either *everything* is 'information', or the geospatial arrangement of matter is not 'information' before it has been taken in by the eye (and likewise for intellectual vision).

    If the latter, there is no shared common property of acquisition of external information.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Dguller,

    This is all good food for thought. I've been studiously reading my Copleston...because I too am puzzled from some of your objections. With respect to the content of our words applied to God (let's take Wisdom instead of Goodness):

    "reflection will show that to say that God is wise, meaning that God is more than wise (in the human sense), is not at all the same thing as saying that God is not wise (in the human sense). A stone is not wise (in the human sense), neither is it more than wise: it is less than wise. It is true that if we use the word 'wise' as signifying precisely the wisdom we experience, namely human wisdom, we can say with truth not only that the stone is not wise, but also that God is not wise; but the meaning of the two statements is not the same, and if the meaning is not the same, there must be a positive content in the statement that God is not wise (i.e. that God is more than wise in the specifically human sense). The statement, therefore, that God is wise ('wise' meaning infinitely more than wise in the human sense) has a positive content. To demand that the content of analogical ideas should be perfectly clear and expressible, so that they could be understood perfectly in terms of human experience, would be to misunderstand altogether the nature of analogy."

    ReplyDelete
  38. Josh:

    But the analogy is about the way they process external information, and there is no common property between them for that. Otherwise, there would be no essential distinction between material and immaterial knowing...

    How do you know that the analogy is based upon that particular property? If it is, then the analogy fails, but if it is based upon the property that I mentioned, then the analogy holds. Remember, for an analogy to hold there has to be just one common property between the two entities being compared. There will always be others that do not hold, because if they held all qualities in common, then there would be no need for an analogy at all, but rather an identity relationship would hold.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Jack:

    It does make sense but if you are correct then either *everything* is 'information', or the geospatial arrangement of matter is not 'information' before it has been taken in by the eye (and likewise for intellectual vision).

    I’m a bit confused. Are you denying that there are external entities and phenomena that have objective properties that can be understood by our sensory and intellectual apparatus? That can’t be right, but that’s what it sounds like you’re saying. And I would count those objective properties as “information”, because those would count as formal causes that are apprehended by our senses and intellect, according to Aristotelianism.

    Again, sensory information and intellectual information does not necessarily have to be identical for an analogy to hold between them, but only a single property has to be shared. I think that I have supplied it, and returning to the differences between the two types of information does not negate my account of analogy at all. All analogies are imperfect, because there are important differences between the two terms, but as long as they share a common univocal property, then the analogy works just fine.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Josh:

    I can understand God being more wise than creatures, but to say that God is more than wise is incomprehensible to me, for the reasons that I have stated. It is basically saying that God has a property W(G) that is fundamentally different from the created property W(C), but also very similar to W(C). However, the similarity is supposed to be analogical, and not univocal nor equivocal. And that leads to all the problems that I have mentioned with the doctrine of analogy. To say otherwise robs “similar” of all meaning, and thus “analogy” of all meaning, as well. You might has well say that God’s properties bear relation A to creation’s properties, and that X bears relation A to Y iff X is similar to Y, but without sharing any univocal properties, which makes “similar” incoherent. It would be like saying that X is similar to Y, but have nothing in common with Y. If it did have something in common, then that would be a shared univocal property, which you have denied can occur.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Dguller,

    I can understand God being more wise than creatures, but to say that God is more than wise is incomprehensible to me, for the reasons that I have stated.

    Show me explicitly where Copleston's reasoning fails and I'll fall in line with your argument. It's eminently clear to me that "the stone is not wise" and "God is not wise" don't mean the same thing, and allow positive attribution, when you allow that God is the creator and that nothing is found in the effect that is not in some way in the cause.

    ReplyDelete
  42. DNW,

    "You've read Heath's 'Greek Astronomy' at some time, no doubt? Even if you haven't you should know better."

    If you're asking if I know that Ancient Greeks knew the earth was a sphere, yes I do. Even Augustine seemed to accept a spherical Earth. But we find in Aristotle's "On the Heavens" the following: "Anaximenes and Anaxagoras and Democritus give the flatness of the earth as the cause of its staying still." Obviously the flat-earth theory was known to Aristotle. And I might add, Aristotle "proved" logically that the Earth was at the center of the universe and did not move. He also "proved" logically some notions we consider silly by today's standards. So even though you might not like my caricature of the flat-earthers, that theory was at one time, at various places on the planet, taken seriously. The question is not really about the belief -- that belief did exist -- it's rather about whether that belief was due to logic or something else.

    ReplyDelete
  43. grodrigues,

    Premise (1) is completely circular: what do the physical sciences search for? The physical. What is the physical? What the physical sciences search for.

    The physical sciences search for mathematical patterns in the universe, and thus mathematically model the universe. As for the notion of “physical”, it characterizes the various concepts used in the respective models (such as “electron”, “mass”, “force”, “spacetime”, etc).

    Premise (1) tries to express the fact that the physical sciences need not assume the presence of any supernatural or extra-physical causes or effects when studying the order of the universe and producing knowledge which has found dramatic application in technology.

    So which is it? Unfalsifiable or falsifiable as you seem to concede it is, at least in principle, in the previous quote?

    Premises (1) and (2) are empirical and are certainly falsifiable. My point is that *as long* as they hold the version of naturalism I am here defending is unfalsifiable. And in that version scientism makes excellent sense. And, given how well supported (1) and (2) are, how elegant they are, and how their truth does not in any way contradict theism – I find that theists have good grounds to accept them too. A final point: As you have noted (libertarian) free will is by definition a supernatural effect. The fact though that the existence of free will is an unnecessary assumption for the physical sciences does not imply that free will does not exist. Rather, if free will exists it exists in a way which is compatible with (1) and (2). After all, the existence of minds is also an unnecessary assumption for the physical sciences, but nobody (except the wild-eyed eliminative materialists) finds that this fact is especially relevant.

    Naturalism may be simple, but it certainly is not coherent. I will leave such a demonstration to Prof. Feser, his posts and his books.

    Any philosophical demonstration takes some basic assumptions as given. Since I am a theist the assumptions I use are similar to Ed Feser’s, and therefore I often find his arguments against naturalism convincing. But – and that’s my main point here – a naturalist will see the world in a way which does not justify these assumptions (e.g. the naturalist may think that free will is an illusionary feeling, that moral language is cognitively meaningless, etc). Since the naturalism I here defend by definition fits all our experiences of life it follows that all possible philosophical arguments against it are defeated.

    [naturalism] truncates reality

    The naturalist begs to disagree and points out that she has not seen any convincing argument against naturalism. What the naturalist can’t deny though is that a huge part of our actual experience of life is rendered “illusory” by naturalism. Apart from free will and morality, rationality itself is rendered illusory by naturalism.

    ReplyDelete
  44. dguller,

    [God’s] goodness is like ours, except that it isn’t, except that it is

    I’d say that God’s goodness is like ours in that it grounds our goodness. But God’s goodness is *not* like ours for it is not itself grounded in something outside of itself. Thus God is both goodness and good.

    ReplyDelete
  45. @Which isn't quite what I said. I said there were practical reasons to reject (a) solipsism and (b) radical incompetence of reason

    Ehmmm... No.

    The practical rejection solipsism implied a practical acceptance of scientism. Sorry, but the fundamental issue is that you can't disprove solipsism. Newtonian mechanics may be "good enough" for everyday, but it's not a reflection of reality.

    A fundamentalist atheist is basically saying that solipsism is false whilst not being able to prove that solipsism is false. Bit of a logical contradiction. Once again Fundamentalist Atheism is faith, not logic.

    Oh, and by the way. First order logic is complete.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Premise (1) tries to express the fact that the physical sciences need not assume the presence of any supernatural or extra-physical causes or effects when studying the order of the universe and producing knowledge which has found dramatic application in technology.

    That depends in part on how laws themselves are conceived. Have you ever read The Last Superstition, by the way?

    Also, search Ed's past posts for the problem of talking about the physical, particularly Chomsky's reaction. What qualifies as supernatural or physical is a standing problem.

    ReplyDelete
  47. grodrigues,

    " I will repeat for the last time: if QM is logically inconsistent, then it follows that it can [not] prove anything at all, so it lacks any predictive power."

    If by "proof" you mean absolute, necessary certainty then neither QM nor anything else proves anything. QM does have predictive power. But it does not predict with certainty. Classical logic, OTOH, does seem to believe it is a tool for finding certainty. So in regard to QM I'm not sure what you mean by logical inconsistency. I'm not sure how you think logical consistency relates to predictive power. Can it help us guess better? Sure, but we could still guess wrong.

    QM deals with probabilities. Given W, it could predict the probability that X will happen, the probability that Y will happen, or the probability that Z will happen. Is this logic to you? It's not logic to me. If it is, the logical "truth" of a proposition reduces to the 51% chance that it will materialize. And even the 49% "false" proposition is, 49% of the time, correct. I don't think this guessing-game is what Aristotle had in mind.

    BTW, unless you are totally unfamiliar with the topic -- which I doubt -- you know I'm not out on a limb with this. So it's easy for me to dismiss your dismissive attitude.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Josh:

    Show me explicitly where Copleston's reasoning fails and I'll fall in line with your argument. It's eminently clear to me that "the stone is not wise" and "God is not wise" don't mean the same thing, and allow positive attribution, when you allow that God is the creator and that nothing is found in the effect that is not in some way in the cause.

    It seems like they don’t, but it is only by virtue of some equivocation and sleight of hand.

    This can be seen when you start with two types of wisdom, created wisdom (or W(C)) and godly wisdom (or W(G)). The stone lacks both W(C) and W(G), and thus is “not wise” in the sense of having neither W(G) nor W(C). God is supposed to have W(G), but not W(C), and thus is “not wise” in the sense of lacking W(C).

    The problem is when we try to understand what exactly W(G) is supposed to be. It is neither univocal nor equivocal to W(C), but is supposed to be analogous to W(C). What does this mean? My contention is that any account of analogy that you want to use ultimately necessitates that X is analogous to Y iff X and Y share a common univocal property P. This would not be a problem, except that Aquinas has stated that all divine attributes and properties cannot be understood univocally. I have argued that if this is true, then they cannot be understood at all, because without a univocal common property P, all analogy fails.

    Bringing in the idea that what is in the effect necessarily must be present in the cause to give is irrelevant, because in most cases, this is not a problem, because the property in the cause that is given to the effect can be understood univocally without difficulty, at least at some level. However, if you state that this is impermissible, then you cannot meaningfully talk about what is in the cause at all. You can take my arguments above and just change the variables to the causal property (or P(C)) and effect property (P(E)), and see that when you are trying to understand P(C) through P(E), then you must be able to comprehend a univocal P that both P(C) and P(E) share in order for the analogy to get going. If you cannot do this, then you are stuck. You literally have no idea what P(C) could possibly mean, and can only say that something is in the cause, but we have no idea what it is.

    Again, this comes down to the fact that if you accept my concept of analogy, and refuse to accept univocal meaning about God’s properties, then you cannot talk about God at all. As far as I can tell, you have two options to be able to meaningfully refer to God at all. First, you can reject Aquinas’ claim that God cannot be described univocally. Second, you can refute my concept of analogy. I think the former is more profitable, because every single type of analogy that has been described thus far appears to be subsumed under my concept.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Dianelos:

    I’d say that God’s goodness is like ours in that it grounds our goodness. But God’s goodness is *not* like ours for it is not itself grounded in something outside of itself. Thus God is both goodness and good.

    But why call it “goodness” then? Why not call it “the ground”? It is when you call it “goodness” that is carries a particular set of implications that inevitably relate it to our concept of “goodness”. That is not a problem, except that Aquinas said that the meaning of “goodness” cannot be univocal in the sense of meaning the same thing about divine goodness as created goodness. That leads to the problems that I have mentioned, which seem to imply that without univocal meaning with regards to divine properties, then they are actually meaningless, and thus preclude the ability to talk about God at all.

    This is about meaning and it seems that the rules that Aquinas laid down result in the meaninglessness of divine properties. The only way out of this dilemma is to either reject Aquinas’ rejection of univocal meaning, or to show how one can say that X is like Y, but be unable to state anything that they have in common, because all statements to that effect are incoherent.

    At least, that’s how I see things.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Here’s another thought.

    Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy rejects my definition of analogy as applicable to divine properties. Instead, his doctrine identifies the divine property as primary and the creature property as secondary. This principle is supposed to be illuminated and justified by his principle that if a property is present in an effect, then it must have been present in the cause, as well. There are a number of examples that justify this principle, and we can agree with its validity, for the purposes of argument.

    Unfortunately, there is one major flaw in this account, and that is that all examples that justify it involve the presence of univocal properties in the cause and effect. The heat in fire is the same as the heat in cooked meat. There is no analogy here. It is univocal, through and through. So, the principle would have to be qualified to be valid only for properties in the cause and effect that can be understood univocally. That would severely curtail its applicability to the content of divine properties, and thus it could not be used to justify the Thomist principle above about the necessary participation of created properties in divine properties, unless they can be understood univocally.

    Again, it seems that if one accepts Aquinas’ refusal to admit any univocal meaning when it comes to divine properties, then one is left being unable to talk about them at all. In this case, it leads to the inapplicability of a core Thomist principle to a core Thomist doctrine.

    Furthermore, even if the doctrine was still justified, then one is still left talking about a created property P having its content by virtue of participating in a divine property P. However, when it comes to trying to talk about P, one becomes tongue tied. In a way, it is like me trying to talk about an incoherent proposition that violates the LNC. It sure looks like I’m talking sense, but when you get down to the logic of it all, it becomes incoherent. So, I agree that Thomist principles when discussing divine properties appear to be sensible, but my argument is that when you follow Thomist priniciples, they actually become incoherent.

    ReplyDelete
  51. @djindra:

    "If by "proof" you mean absolute, necessary certainty then neither QM nor anything else proves anything."

    False. Physical theories are formulated mathematically and thus they have consequences that can be logically deduced. In the case of QM, one obvious example of a result *derived* first and then empirically verified is the Bell inequalities. Other no-go theorems like Kocken-Specker can also serve as inescapable consequences of QM. If QM is true of our universe, these results are true, period.

    "QM does have predictive power. But it does not predict with certainty. Classical logic, OTOH, does seem to believe it is a tool for finding certainty. So in regard to QM I'm not sure what you mean by logical inconsistency. I'm not sure how you think logical consistency relates to predictive power. Can it help us guess better? Sure, but we could still guess wrong."

    This is not funny anymore. You are so, so confused... I am going to try for the last time to see if I can get through your thick skull and plant some semblance of sense in the squishy gray matter for a brain that, presumably you have resting there.

    1. Classical logic does not believe anything because it is not a person to have beliefs.

    2. Classical logic, in the mathematical sense, is simply the formalization of our reasoning processes. If it is a tool, it is a tool to find the truth.

    3. *If* QM were logically inconsistent, as you hold, it would mean that it would exist a proposition P such that QM proved both P and not-P. By the law of non-contradiction this is false, and since from a falsehood anything follows, it would follow that QM would be able to prove anything and everything. It would prove that 1 = 1 and it would prove that 1 = 0 and it would prove *every* proposition Q and its negation. But if it proves everything, it means it has no predictive power since anything and everything follows from it, understand?

    4. Have you studied probability? I guess you have not, given the egregious confusions you betray. It is a classical branch of mathematics, using the same classical logical tools that other branches of mathematics use.

    5. Have you studied QM? I guess you have not, given the egregious confusions you betray. Its mathematical apparatus involves Hilbert spaces, Bounded operators, Von-Neumann algebras, Lie groups of symmetries and their representation theory, etc. These are all classical branches of mathematics, using the same classical logical tools that other branches of mathematics use.

    6. The fact that QM is a probabilistic theory and not a deterministic one has nothing to do with logic. Classical statistical mechanics is also a probabilistic theory.

    7. QM intrinsic logic *may* not be classic. Maybe you have heard of quantum logics (a controversial name, due to the lack of distributivity and the difficulty in defining an implication operator). But this has nothing to do with your animadversions, which are simply the result of ignorance. How do I know? Because unlike you, I have actually studied these things.

    So please, stop saying idiocies. You are only making a fool of yourself.

    "BTW, unless you are totally unfamiliar with the topic -- which I doubt -- you know I'm not out on a limb with this. So it's easy for me to dismiss your dismissive attitude."

    I do not doubt that is easy for you to dismiss knowledge and rationality.

    ReplyDelete
  52. djindra said...

    DNW,

    You've read Heath's 'Greek Astronomy' at some time, no doubt? Even if you haven't you should know better.'

    If you're asking if I know that Ancient Greeks knew the earth was a sphere, yes I do."

    I was asking if you did, not if you now (age of the Internet and all that) do. And why if you knew - and you should have - you would still have gone ahead and said what you said.

    Nor can I understand, since the context was obviously expositors of logical doctrines, why you now reference St. Augustine, unless it's just some erudite sounding tidbit you came across while scrambling online for back-fill sufficient to bury an error.


    "Even Augustine seemed to accept a spherical Earth. But we find in Aristotle's "On the Heavens" ... "

    Yeah, thanks for shoveling up the the borrowed lecture, but I already have a web browser.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Dguller,

    I'll get to a closer reading later, but this strikes me right off the bat:

    God is supposed to have W(G), but not W(C), and thus is “not wise” in the sense of lacking W(C).

    God is not a subject that "has" Wisdom. God is Wisdom, as the source of the perfection. Perhaps that's causing some confusion right off the bat.

    ReplyDelete
  54. So, I agree that Thomist principles when discussing divine properties appear to be sensible, but my argument is that when you follow Thomist priniciples, they actually become incoherent.

    Part of this may come down to a misunderstanding of what is trying to be done by Aquinas. It seems to me that the divine names that have positive content are just setting limits; it doesn't mean we can comprehend experientially what that entails. Obviously we can't talk about the divine attributes as lived by God himself; but it simply doesn't follow that we can't know what would define those attributes. And these limits we can deduce from recognizing our own limits, and the likeness of our finite perfections to the infinite perfections of God.

    ReplyDelete
  55. The Social Pathologist,

    "The practical rejection solipsism implied a practical acceptance of scientism. Sorry, but the fundamental issue is that you can't disprove solipsism. Newtonian mechanics may be "good enough" for everyday, but it's not a reflection of reality."

    I once thought solipsism was stupid. It was so stupid that it was stupid even to contemplate stupid reasons to reject it. But then I thought, why not? What harm can come of it? Why not put it to an experimental test. I was very surprised by the results and thought I should share my findings.

    Take a well sharpened pencil and hold it approximately 6 inches away from and 60 degrees to the left of the front of your nose. With your right hand gently push the pencil through your left palm. Don't do this over carpet unless you first spread several layers of newspaper under you. Now close your right eye. With your left eye look at the pencil sticking through your palm. It probably hurts but just ignore it for the duration of this experiment. Do you see the blood trickling down your arm? Well, that's just a mind perception. It's not real. If you exercise patience and continue this experiment you will find your thoughts control a universe of your own making. This can now be readily proven by closing your left eye and opening your right. See. Your nose is in the way. The blood drenched pencil has disappeared. If you concentrate very hard on this phenomenal nose in front of you, you'll quickly find your pain will dissipate. Within about ten minutes it's gone entirely. Needless to say, I was very relieved by the results. Why I'm sharing this with myself I really can't say. I'll eventually contemplate that. But right now I really need to clean the blood off the floor before the wife gets home.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Feser attempts to portray himself as offering the official catholic view on "scientism", when he's not. For one, the catholic church itself objects to creationism (as has since 60s) and accepts most modern science. Lemaitre, who formulated the first account of the "Big Bang", was a high powered mathematical scientist--and arguably a follower of "scientism".

    George Coyne, who was the vatican's astronomer, also opposes creationism, including the neo-thomistic sort (ie, with the old "teleology") that Feser upholds. Indeed Feser's anti-science rants often sound rather similar to something a french postmodernist might bark--change Feser's points on religious dogma to...marxism/multiculturalism and nearly identical.

    ReplyDelete
  57. dguller et al,

    I wonder if the main problem here is different definitions of the word "property" as I think I might be picking up a difference between Aquinas' and dguller's usage.

    I am not quite there yet to be able to give a detailed account of properties as understood by Aquinas, so I will defer to another.

    peace,
    Michael

    ReplyDelete
  58. Dguller,

    Unfortunately, there is one major flaw in this account, and that is that all examples that justify it involve the presence of univocal properties in the cause and effect. The heat in fire is the same as the heat in cooked meat. There is no analogy here. It is univocal, through and through.

    "As 'healthy' is said of medicine and the animal, insofar as medicine is the cause of health in the animal." This is not univocal, and is the type of analogy Aquinas is applying...as 'Wise' is said of God and man, insofar as Wisdom is the cause of knowledge in man...

    What justifies it is the nature of the relation, not a common property.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Hopefully not flooding the combox:

    Copleston:

    "When we say that God is wise we affirm of God a positive attribute; but we are not able to give any adequate description of what is objectively signified by the term when it is predicated of God. If we are asked what we mean when we say that God is wise, we may answer that we mean that God possesses wisdom in an infinitely higher degree than human beings."

    And as God's existence is identical to essence, it's not like an accidental property that he "has."

    Since we can't describe the term adequately, does it have meaning?

    the possession of certain attributes and not of others can be deduced by means of reflection on the nature of the first unmoved mover, first cause and necessary being...If, for example, God has created intellectual beings, we cannot suppose that He is Himself less than intelligent...We can know therefore that that which is signified by a term predicated analogically of God exists in Him, even though we cannot understand adequately what it is.

    So, all this flows out of the relation of creatures to God...

    ReplyDelete
  60. Josh:

    Part of this may come down to a misunderstanding of what is trying to be done by Aquinas. It seems to me that the divine names that have positive content are just setting limits; it doesn't mean we can comprehend experientially what that entails. Obviously we can't talk about the divine attributes as lived by God himself; but it simply doesn't follow that we can't know what would define those attributes.

    But it is more than just recognizing limits. It would be one thing to say that God’s wisdom is simply an infinite and perfect form of human wisdom. In that case, “wisdom” can be understood univocally, and there is a difference in degree between divine and human wisdom, for example. No problem there.

    However, that is not what Aquinas seems to be saying. Instead, he seems to be saying that divine wisdom and human wisdom actually have nothing in common, because if they did, then there would be a toehold for univocal meaning by virtue of that commonality. Without univocal meaning at all, then actually there is human wisdom and divine X, where X is just unknown, because it has nothing to do with human wisdom. Again, the problem is the denial of univocal meaning when it comes to divine terms. That is what causes all the problems, as far as I can tell.

    And these limits we can deduce from recognizing our own limits, and the likeness of our finite perfections to the infinite perfections of God.

    But remember that an imperfect circle and a perfect circle are still both circles, and the term “circle” can be understood univocally. In that case, there is no problem starting with imperfect circles drawn on paper, for example, and inferring what perfect circles would be like. However, there is a problem if you say that there are imperfect circles, and then perfect “circles” that are circles and yet nothing like circles. That is just incoherent. Either they are circles, or they aren’t, and saying that they both are and aren’t just makes no sense.

    And that’s what it seems is happening with divine properties. You use a human term, and then drain it of meaning by unmooring it from any univocal sense related to human meaning, and then merrily pretend that it still means something profound and divine, when it actually means nothing. It would be like saying that there are imperfect squares with four sides, but perfect “squares” without four sides, because four-sidedness cannot be understood univocally between imperfect squares and perfect “squares”.

    "As 'healthy' is said of medicine and the animal, insofar as medicine is the cause of health in the animal." This is not univocal, and is the type of analogy Aquinas is applying...as 'Wise' is said of God and man, insofar as Wisdom is the cause of knowledge in man...

    First, the meaning of “healthy” is different when used for medicine and an animal. An animal is healthy when its physical organs are functioning optimally. A medicine is healthy when its use can result in health in an organism. To say that an animal is analogous to medicine, because they are both “healthy”, just makes no sense. It would be like saying that a car is like arriving at a destination, because a car causes one to reach a destination. That just isn’t how analogies are used.

    Second, even if that use of analogy was valid, which I contend it isn’t the case, then the concept “healthy” that is the likeness relation still must have a univocal core concept of “optimal physical functioning”. Again, analogy requires univocal meaning.

    Seriously, look at any analogy you can think of. “Life is like a box of chocolates”. “A name is like a rose”. “The soldier is like a lion”. All of them involve and X and Y that share a common univocal property P. The example of the medicine and the animal is a relationship, but it isn’t an analogy at all. Perhaps the problem is that what Aquinas is talking about is called an “analogy”, but is something else entirely?

    ReplyDelete
  61. Josh:

    So, all this flows out of the relation of creatures to God...

    But the relationship is that there is a perfect divine property P(G) that causes an imperfect created property P(C) as an effect. The relationship only holds by virtue of the properties involved, otherwise the principle of proportionate causality is falsified. In other words, the causal relationship is simply the sharing of P(G) in P(C), much like the heat that is shared from a flame to a roast is only a causal relationship by virtue of the “heat” that is shared. So, talking about relations actually doesn’t avoid the problems with properties that we are discussing.

    ReplyDelete
  62. "Lemaitre, who formulated the first account of the "Big Bang", was a high powered mathematical scientist--and arguably a follower of "scientism". "

    Because a follower of scientism can believe in the resurrection, real presence, the Christian God and more? Or is it that being anti-scientism means you can't do science?

    Answer: neither, you twit.

    ReplyDelete
  63. "Univocality is the use of a descriptor in the same sense when applied to two objects.

    Analogy, Aquinas maintained, occurs when a descriptor changes some but not all of its meaning. Analogy is necessary when talking about God, for some of the aspects of the divine nature are hidden (Deus absconditus) and others revealed (Deus revelatus) to finite human minds. In Aquinas's mind, we can know about God through his creation (general revelation), but only in an analogous manner. We can speak of God's goodness only by understanding that goodness as applied to humans is similar to, but not identical with, the goodness of God."

    Maybe that will help, dguller.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I'm going to focus on this, as it seems the most relevant point:

    First, the meaning of “healthy” is different when used for medicine and an animal. An animal is healthy when its physical organs are functioning optimally. A medicine is healthy when its use can result in health in an organism. To say that an animal is analogous to medicine, because they are both “healthy”, just makes no sense. It would be like saying that a car is like arriving at a destination, because a car causes one to reach a destination. That just isn’t how analogies are used.

    Second, even if that use of analogy was valid, which I contend it isn’t the case, then the concept “healthy” that is the likeness relation still must have a univocal core concept of “optimal physical functioning”. Again, analogy requires univocal meaning.


    The medicine/animal thing is Aquinas' own analogy. Consider another angle: we call some foods 'healthy' all the time because they cause health in us. This analogy is used all the time...and the meaning of "optimal physical functioning" is not univocal here. Yet by virtue of the food's relation to us...we can apply the term. If you don't accept this, please begin a Dguller campaign to end the description of foods as 'healthy.'

    You keep using two-term analogates, but I've stressed repeatedly that proportion is the key here, which means four terms: Healthy:medicine::healthy:animal

    So your car example doesn't apply. Your other examples don't apply. It's simply not the only type of analogy, and the others aren't reducible to it!

    The relevant one I've seen applying to God and man is: Existence of Man:Existence of God::Essence of Man:Essence of God

    All the perfections in us are presented to us under different aspects; Wisdom, Goodness, Being...but in God they are one. We know them as on the other end of a prism with a white light put through it...and our language can never express the attributes adequately. But we can know they exist in Him by virtue of the relationship of our derivation of the perfections from Him. It's not perfect knowledge, and Aquinas isn't claiming that. Just that to know the perfections exist in God is not thereby to know how they exist in God, except in terms of negations.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Or how about (from Feser's book) triangles and people as another example that your definition of analogy is too narrow?

    Good:triangle::good:human being

    "The goodness or perfection of a triangle drawn carefully on paper with a pen and ruler is greater than that of a triangle drawn hastily in crayon...for it more perfectly instantiates the form or pattern definitive of triangularity. The goodness or perfection of someone who always tells the truth is greater than that of a habitual liar, for the former sort of person more perfectly fulfills the natural end or final cause of our intellectual and communicative faculties, which is to grasp and convey truth. A triangle and a person are both "good" in an analogical rather than a univocal sense, however, since there is a moral component to human goodness that is absent in the case of triangles and other non-rational entities.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Josh:

    The medicine/animal thing is Aquinas' own analogy. Consider another angle: we call some foods 'healthy' all the time because they cause health in us. This analogy is used all the time...and the meaning of "optimal physical functioning" is not univocal here. Yet by virtue of the food's relation to us...we can apply the term. If you don't accept this, please begin a Dguller campaign to end the description of foods as 'healthy.'

    But it’s not an analogy. Food is healthy by virtue of being able to cause health in organisms. That is not an analogy. An analogy is where you are saying that one thing is like another by virtue of a shared property. For example, “your smile is like a rose”, which works, because both a smile and a rose are beautiful. If you want to make up a new term for the relation that you and Aquinas are using, then that is fine, but I don’t think you can call it an analogy.

    You keep using two-term analogates, but I've stressed repeatedly that proportion is the key here, which means four terms: Healthy:medicine::healthy:animal


    Again, you seem to be using terms in an idiosyncratic way. When I think about proportion, I think about differing quantities of a particular property. For example, a 3 foot stick is half a 6 foot stick. There is a quantity (e.g. length) that is numerically ordered and compared. What does proportion have to do with your four-term comparison?

    So your car example doesn't apply. Your other examples don't apply. It's simply not the only type of analogy, and the others aren't reducible to it!

    If you aren’t using the word “like” in your statement, then it just isn’t an analogy. The whole point of analogies is to help us understand something we don’t understand by comparing it to something we do understand, and the comparison is assumed to be apt, because the two things being compared share some common properties. For example, the mind is like a computer is supposed to help us understand the mind by comparing a computer’s hardware and software qualities with the mind’s similar qualities. I don’t see any of that happening with the “analogies” that you mention.

    You seem to be focused upon the idea that divine properties cause created properties, and that relationship allows human beings to study created properties and understand divine properties. However, all of that assumes that there is a commonality to the divine and created properties by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality, and that implies that there is only a difference of degree, not in kind. And if that is true, then there is, in fact, a core univocal meaning that differs only because P is perfect and infinite in one case, and imperfect and finite in another, but the meaning of P should be clear and univocal.

    All the perfections in us are presented to us under different aspects; Wisdom, Goodness, Being...but in God they are one. We know them as on the other end of a prism with a white light put through it...and our language can never express the attributes adequately. But we can know they exist in Him by virtue of the relationship of our derivation of the perfections from Him. It's not perfect knowledge, and Aquinas isn't claiming that.

    I’m not saying that one has to fully understand the divine attributes. If they are infinite and perfect, then they are automatically beyond our understanding in a full fashion simply by possessing those qualities. However, they should still be able to be understood univocally, or else it all falls apart, for the reasons that I mentioned. As I mentioned, a perfect circle and an imperfect circle are still both circles. To do what you are trying to do would be to say that an imperfect circle is round, but a perfect circle is not round. And that does not make any sense to me.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Josh:

    Just that to know the perfections exist in God is not thereby to know how they exist in God, except in terms of negations.

    But there is supposed to be a positive core meaning despite the negations, because otherwise, there would only be negative theology. And unless that positive core meaning is univocal, then one has simply negated away all positive content from the divine qualities. To say that divine wisdom is like human wisdom by virtue of … something … but really it isn’t like human wisdom at all, is actually to drain all meaning from “wisdom”, and make all talk about divine wisdom empty. And to say that one does this by analogy doesn’t help, because there still has to be a common univocal property shared between the terms being compared.

    Even your health example doesn’t help here. If you take away the core univocal meaning of “healthy” as “optimal physical functioning”, then neither healthy medicine nor a healthy animal makes any sense. Healthy medicine causes health, and a healthy animal has health, but it is all just different variations on the core concept of “optimal physical functioning”. Take that away, and you have no idea what the medicine is supposed to be doing, or what quality an animal has that warrants the description “healthy”.

    Again, whatever you want to call it, when you are comparing any two terms, and claiming that they share some common properties that warrant a relationship of similarity, then the properties must be understood univocally, or they are equivocal, or they result in an infinite regress of meaning.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Josh:

    A triangle and a person are both "good" in an analogical rather than a univocal sense, however, since there is a moral component to human goodness that is absent in the case of triangles and other non-rational entities.

    But even in that case, there is a univocal core property of “goodness” as “exemplifying the form and end of a substance’s nature”. That is why one can say that a perfect triangle is like a perfect person, i.e. they both share the common univocal property of “exemplifying the form and end of a substance’s nature”. Just because there is a moral dimension involved in the form and end of human nature that is absent from triangular nature is irrelevant. For an analogy to hold, two terms do not have to share all properties, but only (at least) one.

    Sorry, but it seems that every example of analogy that you have mentioned necessarily requires a core univocal sense to a common property being shared by two terms.

    ReplyDelete
  69. "Sorry, but it seems that every example of analogy that you have mentioned necessarily requires a core univocal sense to a common property being shared by two terms."

    If I may interject. You seem to insist that Aquinas can only be speaking of properties in common, or else it's not an analogy: "If you want to make up a new term for the relation that you and Aquinas are using, then that is fine, but I don’t think you can call it an analogy."

    That seems to settle it, doesn't it? You define an analogy as comparing properties in common. Aquinas is using it in terms of relation. It's not a way you're used to, that's all.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Dguller,

    Is it your contention that the two distinct types of analogy presented here:

    "We must accordingly take a different view and hold that nothing is predicated univocally of God and the creature: but that those things which are attributed to them in common are predicated not equivocally but analogically. Now this kind of predication is twofold. The first is when one thing is predicated of two with respect to a third: thus being is predicated of quantity and quality with respect to substance. The other is when a thing is predicated of two by reason of a relationship between these two: thus being is predicated of substance and quantity. In the first kind of predication the two things must be preceded by something to which each of them bears some relation: thus substance has a respect to quantity and quality: whereas in the second kind of predication this is not necessary, but one of the two must precede the other. Wherefore since nothing precedes God, but he precedes the creature, the second kind of analogical predication is applicable to him but not the first."

    Are not distinct? Why? What in this train of reasoning is faulty?

    (I realize this has been going on for a while; I'm content soon to allow you the last word on this)

    ReplyDelete
  71. Josh,
    dguller said: "For an analogy to hold, two terms do not have to share all properties, but only (at least) one."

    he's been emphasizin this need to share at least one property, i'm wondering if "existence" could be thought of as the one shared property that both Man and God have, so that analogies can go forward. just thinking out loud

    ReplyDelete
  72. @djindra

    Lots of verbiage but in the end your point is?

    Prove to me that it isn't all computer generated. I know this question may seem idiotic but help a brother out. Apart from asserting it's real because its stupid to think otherwise how about showing me that there is no possible way it can be computer generated.

    Look I'll help you out a bit, (I'm sorry but I don't have any crayons). Consider the medical condition synesthesia. Now many of these individuals are high functioning individuals (Feynman) and percieve certain sensory inputs differently to the rest of us. How do we distinguish whether their perception of things is correct or ours. Now medicine, defines normal as being what's common. Is it possible that the statistical outliers may have a better grasp of reality than others? In other words, that their perception of things is right and ours wrong. Feynman for instance, had better than average grasp of it. I know its a hard concept to grasp but try. I also suggest that you stay away from sharp things.

    ReplyDelete
  73. The phenomenon of “free will” refers to a feeling we have. That feeling is factual and will be explained when we understand well enough how the human brain works and why such feelings are produced by intelligent brains.

    Likewise, the phenomena of "correct" and "empirically validated" and "logically proven" about propositions, including the propositions of physics, refers to feelings we have. That feelings are factual, and will be explained when we understand well enough how the human brain works and why such feelings are produced by intelligent brains.

    Unfortunately, when such a feelings have been explained by physical science in full, it will explain away meaning, and thus explain away how scientific (or any other) explanation accounts for anything. The moment of success in the effort would be the moment we no longer consider science as saying anything at all about what we know, because it would say we no longer consider that we know anything.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Josh:

    Here’s how I look at the two types of analogy that Aquinas described in the passage you cited.

    Say you have a situation in which A causes both B and C. (In the passage, this would be the case where A = substance, B = quality, and C = quantity.) Now, one can compare (1) A to B, (2) A to C, and (3) B to C. The first type of analogy in the passage is referring to (3), and the second type of analogy is referring to (1) and (2). So, I would agree with you that they are different kinds of analogy, but the question is whether this difference precludes an underlying similarity or unity.

    My contention is that what makes (1), (2) and (3) possible is that A, B and C must share a common property P. This would make sense in a Thomist framework by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality. A has P, and A gives P to both B and C, which means that, in the end, A, B and C all have P. It is this common possession of P that makes the two types of analogy possible to begin with. So, in the end, I think that they all are analogies by virtue of a shared common property.

    If this analysis is correct, then it would seem that whether you are drawing an analogy of the (1), (2) or (3) form, then it still must meet the definition of analogy that I have been defending, i.e. X is like Y iff X and Y both share (at least) one common univocal property P. And if my definition is true, then if you reject the very idea of univocal meaning of divine terms, then you are simply unable to talk about God at all.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous:

    That seems to settle it, doesn't it? You define an analogy as comparing properties in common. Aquinas is using it in terms of relation. It's not a way you're used to, that's all.

    But even if you are using a relation, then by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality, the relation only holds, because of the transfer of properties from the cause to the effect. See my recent comment to Josh about how I analyze Aquinas’ two types of analogy to see what I mean. In the end, it just does not seem possible to avoid the idea that there must be common properties for any kind of comparison or analogy to be made.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous:

    he's been emphasizin this need to share at least one property, i'm wondering if "existence" could be thought of as the one shared property that both Man and God have, so that analogies can go forward. just thinking out loud

    Yeah, that would work to get an analogy going for sure, assuming that “being” means the same thing for God and for created beings. However, if being is the only common property shared between God and created beings, then that is the only analogy that one can draw, because if they lack every other property in common, then you cannot know anything about God, other than that he exists. You cannot talk about his wisdom, mercy, will, and so on, then.

    Here’s a way to look at it. Say God has the following properties: X, Y and Z, and created beings have the following properties: X, A and B. You can draw an analogy between God and created beings based upon X, because they share it in common, but that is where you have to stop. You cannot use the properties A and B to understand God, because he lacks those properties altogether.

    Does that make sense?

    ReplyDelete
  77. dguller

    "You cannot use the properties A and B to understand God, because he lacks those properties altogether."

    Except that God's A is His B which is His C... so it would seem that, as Anny thought, the analogies can go forward?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Jack:

    Except that God's A is His B which is His C... so it would seem that, as Anny thought, the analogies can go forward?

    Does that mean that A, B, C, and so on, are not distinct properties, but basically all equivalent to the same single property (i.e. A = B = C = …)? I can understand that A, B, C, and so on, share a common thread (i.e. necessary properties of God, for example), and thus are essentially related, but I don’t think it makes sense to say that they are all absolutely identical in content. In other words, God’s goodness, will, intellect, and so on, are all related in a necessary way, but do they all mean exactly the same thing? And if they do mean the same thing, then why bother using different words for them, especially words that necessarily include distinctions that are necessary for their sense?

    Again, it seems that when we are talking about God, it all gets garbled up into nonsense. It is like me talking about a proposition that violates the LNC. It seems like I’m making sense, but it’s only because I am compartmentalizing my thoughts to exclude the contradictions involved. However, the contradictions are still there, ready to consume my propositions into incoherence. In fact, it seems like one is just pretending to be making sense, when one is actually making no sense at all.

    ReplyDelete
  79. dguller

    Well, the doctrine of divine simplicity isn't that God has attributes that share a common thread in the way you describe. Rather God is His existence, which is His A, which is His B, and so on.

    Dr. Feser has a couple of posts here and here that you'd find worthwhile.

    I don't think you can say the doctrine of divine simplicity is garbled up nonsense like you denying the LNC! For one, as Dr. Feser writes in response to William Lane Craig's similar assertion of unintelligibility: "the fact that a great many major philosophers and theologians have regarded divine simplicity as intelligible should at least give us pause", no?

    ReplyDelete
  80. Feser attempts to portray himself as offering the official catholic view on "scientism", when he's not. For one, the catholic church itself objects to creationism (as has since 60s) and accepts most modern science. Lemaitre, who formulated the first account of the "Big Bang", was a high powered mathematical scientist--and arguably a follower of "scientism".

    As Georges Lemaître was a Catholic priest, in addition to being a mathematician and physicist, I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that he, in all likelihood, did not believe that the only knowledge was empirical knowledge. One would expect that as a mathematician he would know better.

    George Coyne, who was the vatican's astronomer, also opposes creationism, including the neo-thomistic sort (ie, with the old "teleology") that Feser upholds.

    The professor isn't a creationist at all, so I have no idea what you're blathering on about here. And George Coyne isn't a believer in "scientism". Scientism is a philosophy that the only knowledge is scientific knowledge, not a general belief in the utility of science.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Dguller,

    If you have time, please read this, as I think it directly addresses some of your objections and also brings light to my own correct and incorrect statements in this whole discussion, due to me being the amateur armchair philosopher that I am:

    http://www.anthonyflood.com/clarkenielsenanalogy.htm

    Point out the problems if you find any and I'll attempt to comment further

    ReplyDelete
  82. Jack:

    Well, the doctrine of divine simplicity isn't that God has attributes that share a common thread in the way you describe. Rather God is His existence, which is His A, which is His B, and so on.

    I understand that, but that’s the only way that I can make any sense of this idea. If God only has a single property X, which seems to manifest itself in different forms, e.g. A, B, C, then how exactly does this happen?

    Feser uses the Fregean example of the morning star to illustrate the difference between sense and reference, and uses this distinction to support his claim that there can be a single referent (i.e. X), but multiple senses (e.g. A, B, C). However, the fact that Venus can be observed as the morning star or the evening star is understandable, given the different physical perspectives involved. That example works well in the physical realm, but I cannot fathom what it could possibly mean when it comes to divine attributes. What is the mechanism by which the divine attribute X gets split through the prism of the human mind into A, B and C? I mean, God exists outside space-time, and thus all talk of a different perspective is incoherent, because perspective only makes sense within space-time.

    In addition, there is a clear contradiction when one says that “will” = “intellect” = “goodness” = “being”, because all of these terms have different meanings, albeit with some common properties. Feser says that this contradiction only occurs if these terms are taken univocally to have their typical meaning. To resolve the contradiction one must use the doctrine of analogy to say that all these properties must be appended with the prefix “something like …”. In other words, the real identity relation is “something like will” = “something like intellect” = “something like goodness” = “something like being”. So, the doctrine of analogy does all the heavy lifting here, and if this doctrine is false, then divine simplicity is contradictory.

    I have provided my reasons for thinking that the doctrine of analogy is false, and if I am correct, then divine simplicity makes as much sense as “p and not-p”.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Josh:

    Thanks for the link. I haven’t read all of it, but can comment on the relevant portion that I have read.

    Clarke writes that Thomist analogy is based upon “similarity-in-difference”, but this “similarity” is “found in a qualitatively different way in each case”. This is because the similar property being compared is “more or less profoundly and intrinsically modified in a qualitatively different way each time, so that through and through the whole property is recognized as at once similar yet different (not just found in some new instance that in other ways is different).”

    To me, this explains nothing. What does “similar” even mean here? It doesn’t mean any identical or univocal properties. There is something retained that demonstrates the similarity, but you cannot ever say what it is, because if you could, then that would be univocal, which is impermissible. So, it is a matter of: “I can’t tell you how this works, but trust me, it totally does!”

    He writes: “As a result there is quite a bit of “give,” flexibility, indeterminacy, or vagueness right within the concept itself, with the result that the meaning remains essentially incomplete, so underdetermined that it cannot be clearly understood until further reference is made to some mode or modes of realization.” This is actually quite post-modern, and I am impressed that the indeterminacy and vagueness that is the hallmark of Derrida’s deconstruction is actually something that Aquinas would endorse.

    He writes: “it is in fact impossible to define what we mean by an analogous concept, to grasp the similarity involved, except by actually running up and down the known range of cases to which it applies, by actually calling up the spectrum of different exemplifications, and then catching the point.” What does this even mean, except that one abstracts the common property by reflecting upon a number of individual cases?

    He writes: “the meaning of the term cannot be grasped at all clearly without actually calling up a diversified range of cases.” Again, he is trying to have his cake and eat it, too. So, there is a “meaning of the term”, but one cannot comprehend it without the totality of particular cases that exemplify the term. Can we say what this term is? Nope, because that would mean it is univocal. It is as if there is a vague, misty presence at the heart of the term that we somehow apprehend is present through all particular cases, but we just cannot describe it in words, but still know that it is there, and that it is single.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Josh:

    He writes: “the concept itself, as an abstract predicate by itself, fit to be used in many different predications as somehow the same one concept, does not mention or contain within its expressed content any of these particular modes in any of its predications, but is understood as transcending them all.” Again, there is a meaning that somehow unites all the diverse particular cases, but it transcends them all. Well, if it transcends them, then it is beyond our understanding, which means that we cannot talk about it at all. Certainly, you cannot say that it is constantly present in all individual cases.

    He even gives the example that we have discussed previously about perception and apprehension of visual images and intellectual concepts. He claims that there is no possible core univocal meaning that makes these two phenomena analogous. In fact, I think that we agreed that something along the lines of “apprehension of external information” was something that would work quite well. He makes much of the fact that our definitions are interrelated, and thus we have to use words to define other words, but so what? Does it follow that we cannot use words to describe the core concepts the make certain terms similar or analogous?

    Ultimately, what this comes down to is the sheer assertion that we must have faith that there is “something” common to all particular cases that drives the analogy, but that this “something” is “vague”, “indeterminate”, and “transcendent” at its core when in isolation from those cases, and thus cannot be expressed univocally at all. However, it can be apprehended to some extent by the mind when the particular cases are sequentially paraded before it, despite the fact that the mind literally has no idea what they actually have in common, because it is indescribable. In other words, it is a shell game without anything under a shell, except that one must firmly believe that there is something there, because otherwise the whole activity becomes pointless.

    To use an analogy, say that I said that there is a way for the LNC to be falsified by virtue of the non-contradictory-contradiction. Yes, when you try to wrap your mind around how p and not-p can both be true you get tied into intellectual knots, but once you squint this way and turn your head a little, then you can dimly perceive the non-contradictory-contradiction, which in a vague, indeterminate and transcendent fashion eliminates the contradiction somehow. Would you really accept such an explanation as anything but sheer desperation to preserve a philosophical point?

    That is how I see the defense of the doctrine of analogy. I may be wrong, but nothing I have read thus far has shown that it is anything other than the papering over of nonsense by hand waving and invocation of magical relationships that transform incoherence into coherence. It takes the common linguistic device of analogy, removes the core aspect that makes analogy work at all, and yet still declares that it is still an analogy. That is like saying that there is a square that is not four-sided, but is still a square. It just doesn’t make any sense to me, and it probably doesn't make sense to you, either.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Dguller,

    Good points; I'll ruminate once I've had a better chance to look at Clarke's piece in detail and get back to you...

    ReplyDelete
  86. Josh:

    No problem. Take your time. It was a stimulating article that you linked to, and I'll have to reread it a few times myself.

    Take care, and thanks for the dialogue.

    ReplyDelete
  87. dguller,

    "But even if you are using a relation, then by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality, the relation only holds, because of the transfer of properties from the cause to the effect. See my recent comment to Josh about how I analyze Aquinas’ two types of analogy to see what I mean. In the end, it just does not seem possible to avoid the idea that there must be common properties for any kind of comparison or analogy to be made."

    Let me put this to you in another way. Imagine you have two basic properties, basic meaning they are entirely singular rather than themselves being collections of properties. Is there any way to compare these two properties, a way they could be like each other? If so, then it's not going to be in terms of two properties that they share. And if not, I'd like to know why.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Also

    "Well, if it transcends them, then it is beyond our understanding, which means that we cannot talk about it at all. "

    And this seems mistaken. Why would transcendence mean we "cannot talk about it at all" as opposed to can only talk about it in part?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Anonymous:

    Let me put this to you in another way. Imagine you have two basic properties, basic meaning they are entirely singular rather than themselves being collections of properties. Is there any way to compare these two properties, a way they could be like each other? If so, then it's not going to be in terms of two properties that they share. And if not, I'd like to know why.

    Give me some examples, and then I’ll be in a better position to answer your question. But offhand, these basic properties already share common properties, i.e. being singular properties, and in that respect, they could be compared. In fact, to be a singular property is already to be a compound of “singular” and “property”, and thus not singular at all! And if they did not share any other properties other than that one (or two!), then they could not be compared in any other respect, except to say that one’s properties are not like the other’s properties.

    Again, the reason why analogy is such a powerful linguistic tool is that everything has something in common, even if just “existence”. That is why it works so well to help identify connections and relationships amongst our concepts. However, when you set a boundary or limit beyond which there exists something that does not share any similarities with anything on the other side of the boundary, then you have blocked analogy from being able to work. And if analogy does work, then that “something” is actually not on the other side of a boundary at all! As I mentioned above, it seems that one wants to have one’s cake and eat it, too. One wants to set a limit, but still transgress it whenever convenient, and then pretend that the limit is still a limit.

    And this seems mistaken. Why would transcendence mean we "cannot talk about it at all" as opposed to can only talk about it in part?

    How would you know what parts you can talk about?

    ReplyDelete
  90. dguller

    "Give me some examples, and then I’ll be in a better position to answer your question. But offhand, these basic properties already share common properties, i.e. being singular properties, and in that respect, they could be compared."

    I had a feeling you would say that, but it doesn't really hit the point I'm trying to make. You get closer in the next section.

    "And if they did not share any other properties other than that one (or two!), then they could not be compared in any other respect, except to say that one’s properties are not like the other’s properties."

    If what you mean by this is that the only way to ever compare two things is if they have a property in common, then I don't see how you're going to move forward against someone who is claiming otherwise. No matter what they say, you'll just keep coming back to "but there have to be univocal properties in common" and either trying to rewrite what they said in terms of comparing properties (which would be illicit by their standards) or by pointing out you can't rewrite what they said that way and insisting that no comparison was really being made. But neither of these moves is an argument itself. It won't work to say it's a definition either, since the sort of analogy being defined is operating under another definition.

    "Again, the reason why analogy is such a powerful linguistic tool is that everything has something in common, even if just “existence”. That is why it works so well to help identify connections and relationships amongst our concepts."

    I don't think this is correct. Not unless "everything has something in common" is meant to be utterly equivalent to "everything is somehow similar to something else" which would just be another way of insisting that the only way two things can be alike is in virtue of sharing a univocal property, and that's precisely what is being argued about.

    I think this problem may come down to overthinking the language, rather than what language is meant to facilitate. And that in turn is because the main concepts of interest we want to apply to God (goodness, justice, and so on) are themselves understood in an imperfect way. We talk about the property "goodness", but we don't have "goodness" 100% understood.

    "How would you know what parts you can talk about?"

    Portion, not parts. I don't understand the question? I mean, the answer seems obvious. How can you talk about the comprehensible portion of that which is partly comprehensible?

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous:

    If what you mean by this is that the only way to ever compare two things is if they have a property in common, then I don't see how you're going to move forward against someone who is claiming otherwise. No matter what they say, you'll just keep coming back to "but there have to be univocal properties in common" and either trying to rewrite what they said in terms of comparing properties (which would be illicit by their standards) or by pointing out you can't rewrite what they said that way and insisting that no comparison was really being made. But neither of these moves is an argument itself. It won't work to say it's a definition either, since the sort of analogy being defined is operating under another definition.

    But why support an alternative definition that drains “similar” of all meaning? I mean, “similar” just means “sharing something in common”. What other definition is there?

    It just seems that the alternative definition of “analogy” is analogous to analogy in that they are both comparing two terms, but the Thomist analogy is such that it denies the similarity between the two terms being compared. And the problem with that is it makes it very difficult, and I would say impossible, for the two terms to be compared at all. Seriously, if they are not similar, then how can they be compared?

    And if we can agree upon the standard definition of “analogy”, then if you are claiming to have an alternative definition that I can show can be subsumed under the original in every case, then how have I not shown that your new definition is not new at all? It is like you say that have invented a new type of vehicle that is not a car, but it has windows, four tires, an engine, seats, gears, and so on. And every time I point this out to you, you reply, “You do not get to set the definitions!” I am just starting with an agreed-upon definition, and you have made the further claim to have come up with something new. If I can show that you haven’t, then no matter how much you protest, there is nothing new going on.

    I think this problem may come down to overthinking the language, rather than what language is meant to facilitate. And that in turn is because the main concepts of interest we want to apply to God (goodness, justice, and so on) are themselves understood in an imperfect way. We talk about the property "goodness", but we don't have "goodness" 100% understood.

    You don’t have to understand it entirely. You just have to be able to anchor some of its properties in a univocal way. If every concept involved with “goodness” is “indeterminate”, “vague” and “transcendent”, then what exactly is the difference between this and equivocation?

    Portion, not parts. I don't understand the question? I mean, the answer seems obvious. How can you talk about the comprehensible portion of that which is partly comprehensible?

    First, “portion” implies “parts”. Again, I’d be careful about draining words of meaning.

    Second, if the part (or portion) under discussion is indeterminate, vague and transcendent, then how exactly is it comprehensible?

    ReplyDelete
  92. Anonymous:

    Third, because whenever we try to nail down a meaning, there is always a trump card used: “But it’s not really like that”. Then what is it like? “I don’t know.” And that is the problem with dealing with transcendence. To use the language of Levinas, we are always trying to transform the Other into the Same, and the problem is that this is impossible. That whenever we try to make this move, the rug is always pulled out from under us to deny us the fruits of our labor. Even the portions that we think we have subsumed under the Same are inherently unstable, and immediately get yanked out of our hands into the Other, like a quark trying to escape a nucleon. It just doesn’t seem to be able to be done. It is all so slippery and fuzzy that it just makes one’s head dizzy!

    Incidentally, this is exactly what I find so fascinating about transcendent talk of this sort. The need to transgress a boundary while knowing that it is impossible, and yet doing it anyway, knowing that it will be futile.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Anonymous:

    Here’s a good way to look at it. Say that there are four entities, each with three properties:

    W = H, I, J

    X = A, B, C

    Y = A, F, G

    Z = A, B, C

    You can say that X is like Y, because they both share A. You can say that X is not like Y, because they do not share B&C and F&G. You cannot say that X is like Z, because they are, in fact, identical to one another, having the same properties. And W is unlike X, Y, and Z, because it shares no properties with them.

    I would say that this account probably captures every single type of analogy relationship between two terms out there, with the exception of Thomist talk about divine properties.

    And that leaves us with two options:

    (1) Thomist talk about divine properties is not an analogy at all, and thus is impossible.
    (2) We need to revise our definition of “analogy” to include similarity relations between terms that have nothing in common.

    Naturally, I would prefer (1), because it just makes more sense to me. I dislike (2), because it appears to be incoherent and only superficially makes sense by ignoring the deep contradictions within it.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Anonymous:

    And one more thing.

    When you deny that analogy requires common properties between the terms being compared, are you talking about all analogogous relationships, or only when they pertain to talk about divine properties in relation to created properties?

    If the former, then you are just wrong.

    If the latter, then why suddenly change the meaning of “analogy”, which works fine for every other case, simply to preserve your desire to talk about God? If that move is valid, then why can’t I talk about my new definition of “ball”, which does away with the unnecessary property of roundness, and courageously replaces it with squareness! It is still a shape, and so my “ball” is like the ordinary meaning of “ball”, and so what’s the problem? Well, the problem is that I have eliminated an essential property of “ball” in my zeal to include squareness in that concept, and thus have annihilated the very meaning of “ball” entirely rather than extended it into a new realm.

    ReplyDelete
  95. dguller,

    "But why support an alternative definition that drains “similar” of all meaning? I mean, “similar” just means “sharing something in common”. What other definition is there?"

    But you're doing exactly what I said you would do. The argument is that two things can be similar without sharing univocular properties. Your response is to just insist that similarity means sharing univocular properties, and to rephrase all possible comparisons in those terms and say that's the only possible way to understand it. It gets us nowhere.

    It could be we're at an impasse, but I am trying hard to explain why.

    "Seriously, if they are not similar, then how can they be compared?"

    It's not that they aren't similar in some way. It's whether similarity can only be had by way of sharing univocular properties. That's what is being denied.

    "(2) We need to revise our definition of “analogy” to include similarity relations between terms that have nothing in common. "

    That does not seem right. I'm suggesting the thomist reply is that the similarity is not in terms of shared univocular properties. I tried to make this clear in terms of comparing properties to each other rather than entities, or partial understandings of a single property to a greater understanding of that same property.

    If the latter, then why suddenly change the meaning of “analogy”, which works fine for every other case, simply to preserve your desire to talk about God?

    You left out a third possible option: that for some things a different kind of understanding than shared univocular properties is necessary to talk productively about them, with God numbering among those things. What is wrong with the idea that some thing or things may require a different type of language or conception to do it justice?

    Your comparison, I think, isn't very good here since you're talking about a ball (a complex thing) versus that which is perfectly simple, and (understatement here) rather unique in many respects.

    ReplyDelete
  96. "You left out a third possible option: that for some things a different kind of understanding than shared univocular properties is necessary to talk productively about them, with God numbering among those things. What is wrong with the idea that some thing or things may require a different type of language or conception to do it justice?"

    This is a perfect example of special pleading.

    "Your comparison, I think, isn't very good here since you're talking about a ball (a complex thing) versus that which is perfectly simple, and (understatement here) rather unique in many respects."

    It's irrelevant whether God is defined as simple, unique, etc., since what is being discussed is whether the use of analogy (or the Thomist use) is valid or invalid. God may well require a different kind of understanding, but dguller appears to have shown (so far) that analogy cannot be one of the methods used, without incoherence (or special pleading) resulting. Don't you think he has at least identified something problematic? You seem to be sweeping it out the door a little too quickly.

    BTW, what a great discussion all round!

    ReplyDelete
  97. Dguller,

    I think a definition of 'property' might be in order. Also, I'm starting to see Clarke's point about treating the analogical terms as purely conceptual/logical terms divorced from their manifestations in the real world. It reminds me of Plato's Meno, where all the speakers can only give Socrates instances of Virtue, as opposed to what it is in itself.

    It seems unless some sort of analogical language can be used with the transcendentals, then we are in a difficult situation which will inevitably come down to denying their existence.

    ReplyDelete
  98. The Social Pathologist,

    "Prove to me that it isn't all computer generated."

    That's not solipsism. My earlier post dealt with the silliness of a solipsist. The "Matrix" environment is different. It's an inherently meaningless challenge and is like the cosmological argument. In the end, it doesn't matter if our ultimate reality is composed of Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, waves, strings, bits in a computer, or God's will. It doesn't matter whether it's a god or programmer who has the ability to pull a plug and make this all disappear. It doesn't matter if all of this can disappear or not -- that is, it doesn't matter if it's eternal or not. In and of themselves, these are pointless to contemplate unless you can put those questions into a compelling, fictional story and sell it as the next blockbuster.

    As for synesthesia and the like, it's an unrelated issue. There's not even a reason to go that far. My sight isn't what it was 30 years ago. My sensory input was considerably better then. I could focus better, colors were brighter, contrast was more pronounced. But let's not get carried away. The world hasn't changed, I have. I see no philosophical significance in that. What is the cosmic significance of the uncontroversial fact that each of us views the world through a subjective porthole?.

    ReplyDelete
  99. DNW,

    "I was asking if you did, not if you now (age of the Internet and all that) do. And why if you knew - and you should have - you would still have gone ahead and said what you said."

    Yes, I did. I went ahead because the Greeks were not the only civilization on Earth and because the Greeks disagreed with themselves. IOW, it's okay for us to read more than one book.

    ReplyDelete
  100. djindra: "In and of themselves, these are pointless to contemplate unless you can put those questions into a compelling, fictional story and sell it as the next blockbuster."

    So all philosophy is meaningless BS, except your personal philosophy. I get ya.

    ReplyDelete
  101. grodrigues,

    "Physical theories are formulated mathematically and thus they have consequences that can be logically deduced."

    At best a half-truth and you admitted so yourself: we cannot deduce the properties of water from knowledge of hydrogen and oxygen. Most things cannot be deduced. And those things that are deduced are not considered valid until confirmed by observation.

    "If QM is true of our universe, these results are true, period."

    But you see, that is always the question. We cannot be sure QM is true. We can never be sure QM is true. We can deduce things that should be true if QM is true, but that's as far as we can go. Empirical verification is the center point of the process. Empirical verification "justifies" (tentative) the theory, the mathematical deduction does not. It points the way to the empirical test that will either corroborate or falsify the theory itself. You seem to be scientifically illiterate on this.

    "The fact that QM is a probabilistic theory and not a deterministic one has nothing to do with logic."

    And as I mentioned earlier, you have adjusted your logic. Logic is now not deterministic. Why was Aristotle's deterministic logic not enough?

    "*If* QM were logically inconsistent, as you hold, it would mean that it would exist a proposition P such that QM proved both P and not-P."

    And it does. Light is a wave (P) and not a wave (not-P). A "particle" of light seems to be at P and not at P. I rest my case.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Anonymous,

    "So all philosophy is meaningless BS, except your personal philosophy. I get ya."

    No, you don't. I say enough around here that you really shouldn't have to put words in my mouth.

    ReplyDelete
  103. "This is a perfect example of special pleading."

    "It's irrelevant whether God is defined as simple, unique, etc., since what is being discussed is whether the use of analogy (or the Thomist use) is valid or invalid."

    I'm suggesting that two things can be similar without them sharing univocal properties, but when I try to give an example of what may qualify for that the reply comes that there is no similarity without sharing univocal properties.

    ReplyDelete
  104. "I'm suggesting that two things can be similar without them sharing univocal properties, but when I try to give an example of what may qualify for that the reply comes that there is no similarity without sharing univocal properties."

    I get you, but can you give a demonstration of it that will make your point? Then you will have shown it and refuted dguller's point. So far you are offering God as a •candidate• for it, but you're not •demonstrating• how it can be done (unless I missed it).

    Anon 2

    ReplyDelete
  105. Anonymous:

    But you're doing exactly what I said you would do. The argument is that two things can be similar without sharing univocular properties. Your response is to just insist that similarity means sharing univocular properties, and to rephrase all possible comparisons in those terms and say that's the only possible way to understand it. It gets us nowhere.

    The best way forward is for you to present an example of two terms that are similar, but that we do not share any common univocal properties. In addition, I think it would be helpful if you could offer a definition of “similar” so that I can see where you are coming from. Finally, you must understand that if I can present a common univocal property that the two terms possess, then you would have failed to prove your point. The ball’s in your court!

    That does not seem right. I'm suggesting the thomist reply is that the similarity is not in terms of shared univocular properties. I tried to make this clear in terms of comparing properties to each other rather than entities, or partial understandings of a single property to a greater understanding of that same property.

    Again, you have to present a coherent concept of similarity without common properties. I don’t think you can do it, but I have been proven wrong before. As another Anonymous has pointed out, the best way forward is for you to present a non-divine example of similarity without common properties, and we can proceed from there. If you cannot, then it would seem that you are simply inventing a definition to justify God talk, which is incredibly ad hoc.

    You left out a third possible option: that for some things a different kind of understanding than shared univocular properties is necessary to talk productively about them, with God numbering among those things. What is wrong with the idea that some thing or things may require a different type of language or conception to do it justice?

    There is nothing wrong with it, but you have to justify that language rather than just asserting its necessity to talk about a special class of beings that happen to value. It would be like me saying that there must be a special kind of language to talk about fictional characters, one that somehow transcends space-time to reach into a fictional realm of imaginary characters, to ground the references of the terms used. This is not only grandiose, but also unnecessary, because there are simpler ways to understand our ability to talk about fictional characters. In addition, if it turns out that there simply is now way to talk about a class of entities, then that just means that that class of entities is incoherent, and thus without content at all, much like a square circle or an analogy without common properties. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  106. Josh:

    I think a definition of 'property' might be in order.

    Do you have a special definition that is problematic?

    Also, I'm starting to see Clarke's point about treating the analogical terms as purely conceptual/logical terms divorced from their manifestations in the real world. It reminds me of Plato's Meno, where all the speakers can only give Socrates instances of Virtue, as opposed to what it is in itself.

    All terms have an underlying logic to them, and thus it is incoherent to talk about language without “conceptual/logical” aspects. This is the basis of any rule-governed activity, as language certainly is. If there was no logic, then there would be no rules, and it would be random and arbitrary.

    In Plato’s Meno is there no possible univocal property that all the instances have in common? Remember, the idea behind “univocal” just means that the meaning of a term retains its content from one statement to the next. So, if I am talking about X in one setting, and then X in another setting, then X retains its meaning in both settings, if it is univocal. Unless you are trying to say that X changes its meaning from one context to another, which would mean that it is equivocal, then you are not making any sense.

    If the LNC is held sacred, as it is here, then either X means “X” or it means “not-X”, and so either it retains its meaning (i.e. “X” = univocal), or it changes its meaning (i.e. “not-X” = equivocal). There is no other way of talking, unless one wants to admit a contradiction, i.e. X means neither “X” nor “not-X”. That is yet another reason why I have been arguing that Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy is just incoherent. It seems to contain a number of inconsistencies that are simply papered over by its adherents.

    It seems unless some sort of analogical language can be used with the transcendentals, then we are in a difficult situation which will inevitably come down to denying their existence.

    That about sums it up, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  107. dguller

    "In addition, I think it would be helpful if you could offer a definition of “similar” so that I can see where you are coming from. Finally, you must understand that if I can present a common univocal property that the two terms possess, then you would have failed to prove your point."

    And that just illustrates why the conversation won't really go forward here. Your standard is that for any example I give, if you reply "No, they share a common univocal property", I'm sunk just by virtue of that assertion. I asked you to think in terms of comparing two basic properties, but you insist the only way they can be similar is by sharing the property of being a property.

    The ball being in my court doesn't help if the rules are rigged. You may as well say that you think all similarities must be in virtue of shared univocal properties, and will interpret all similarities in light of that. That's fine, it just shows the limits of the conversation.

    "As another Anonymous has pointed out, the best way forward is for you to present a non-divine example of similarity without common properties, and we can proceed from there."

    And if I did, you would turn around and say that these two things share the univocal property of being non-divine. But if that property is not shared, then you'll accuse me of special pleading on the grounds that the case is unique. Which in turn means that the one thing God cannot be under your terms is unique and singular.

    I've tried to advance the discussion in terms of talking about the partially comprehended versus the fully comprehend. If you reject that line of inquiry and insist on a demonstration of similarity where the final judgment of success is whether you choose to claim that the similarity is actually due to univocal properties, we are at an impasse.

    "This is not only grandiose, but also unnecessary, because there are simpler ways to understand our ability to talk about fictional characters."

    And if there are no alternatives that remain accurate?

    You may want to read up on Duns Scotus though. Scotus accepts univocal properties when speaking of God, so this won't be a stumbling block.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anonymous:

    I asked you to think in terms of comparing two basic properties, but you insist the only way they can be similar is by sharing the property of being a property.

    I insist upon it, because the only way to compare two things is if they have something in common. Otherwise, what exactly are you basing the comparison upon? I don’t think that I am being stubborn or closed-minded. I literally cannot even conceive of what you are proposing, and I doubt that anyone else can, either.

    The ball being in my court doesn't help if the rules are rigged. You may as well say that you think all similarities must be in virtue of shared univocal properties, and will interpret all similarities in light of that. That's fine, it just shows the limits of the conversation.

    Your job is simple. First, define “similar”. Second, present a non-divine example where two terms are similar, but have absolutely nothing in common. Of course, if I am able to find a univocal property that they do have in common, then by definition you have failed to present the required example.

    It would be like me saying that all dogs are canines, and you say that some dogs are not canines. I ask you to present an example of a dog that isn’t a canine, and you bring me a canine dog. I then say, “Uh, this dog is a canine, and thus doesn’t count as a non-canine dog.” And then you reply, “This game is rigged!”

    And if I did, you would turn around and say that these two things share the univocal property of being non-divine. But if that property is not shared, then you'll accuse me of special pleading on the grounds that the case is unique. Which in turn means that the one thing God cannot be under your terms is unique and singular.

    I agree, your job is extraordinary difficult. In fact, I think it’s impossible, but you are the one making the claim, and thus the onus is upon you to find a way out of this dilemma. I didn’t put you in this bind. Logic did.

    I've tried to advance the discussion in terms of talking about the partially comprehended versus the fully comprehend. If you reject that line of inquiry and insist on a demonstration of similarity where the final judgment of success is whether you choose to claim that the similarity is actually due to univocal properties, we are at an impasse.

    The part that is comprehended must be univocal at some level, though, and the part that isn’t comprehended is beyond all meaning, whether univocal or equivocal. That is the way that language works, and if you are claiming a new linguistic mechanism, then the onus is upon you to justify its validity.

    You may want to read up on Duns Scotus though. Scotus accepts univocal properties when speaking of God, so this won't be a stumbling block.

    If he agrees with me, then why do I have to read up on him? Do you disagree with his arguments about the univocal meaning of divine properties? If you do, then where is the deficiency of his arguments?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Dguller,

    In Plato’s Meno is there no possible univocal property that all the instances have in common?

    As far as I am understanding Norris Clarke, the answer is No, which might explain why the dialogue is not resolved on that point. 'Similarity,' or 'common core of meaning,' is not co-extensive with univocity, in Clarke's estimation, at least when applied to intrinsic analogical terms like 'knowledge,' 'love,' etc. So let's limit our discussion to these "properties," which I'm not wholly certain can be called properties, since that term pre-supposes some metaphysical baggage.

    To me, the test of whether something like what Clarke is saying is in his example which we and he put forward (referring to 'knowledge' as an analogical term):

    He claims that there is no possible core univocal meaning that makes these two phenomena analogous. In fact, I think that we agreed that something along the lines of “apprehension of external information” was something that would work quite well. He makes much of the fact that our definitions are interrelated, and thus we have to use words to define other words, but so what? Does it follow that we cannot use words to describe the core concepts the make certain terms similar or analogous?

    The answer to your second question is, I believe, no, but the task for you to defeat Clarke's example is to provide univocal meanings of the terms that make up your definition of 'knowledge' such that we can apply it to a man and dog univocally. See, I don't believe you can. I believe the effort will founder just like it did with Plato. Which means, in essence, that the situation is much worse than you thought! Given your definition of analogy, there is no possible way to meaningfully say that a man and animal both 'know' something.

    If this is the case, then the transcendentals don't mean anything, and I think you'll agree, that's a universal skepticism that's not really tenable.

    Keep in mind, I'm just trying to follow the argument where it leads. I'm not 100% with Clarke yet, and I understand and appreciate your common-sense reticence, but I also get that if Aquinas' take on analogy is problematic, then Nielsen's/Dguller's is equally so...

    ReplyDelete
  110. dguller

    Briefly, because I need to get some actual work done tonight!

    "I literally cannot even conceive of what you are proposing, and I doubt that anyone else can, either."

    This is what I said earlier. We are at an impasse. You aren't really asking anyone to show you how one thing can be similar to another thing but not in virtue of a univocal property. You are saying what you think, maybe what you cannot help but think, and asking someone to change your mind and saying the only way they can is by doing something you find unthinkable. There's nowhere to go in the conversation then, and it's not the fault of you or anyone else.

    For you, there is no possibility of two things being alike other than sharing univocal properties. That is how you will interpret anything said.

    "If he agrees with me, then why do I have to read up on him?"

    I think you misunderstand me. I did not refer you to Duns Scotus to convince you of the position Aquinas holds. I thought that, as someone who wants to learn about God, Duns Scotus would appeal to you because while he holds many things in common with Aquinas, he accepts univocity when speaking of God.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Josh,

    "I think a definition of 'property' might be in order."

    Finally, about 35 posts later and someone is picking up on what I was. The A/T definition of property is very particular...

    Dguller is using the term as many modern philosophers do, as a catch-all for anything that exists. As far as I can tell, there is no disagreement yet until the proper definition of property is clarified. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  112. dguller,

    "Do you have a special definition that is problematic?"

    Here you are not referring to my post but I thought I'd comment.

    I think the ball is in your court to first understand the definition of property being used and the metaphysical system being advanced rather than Aquinas' arguments conforming to your language. Granted, people here should be able to help you understand the terms and point you to useful sources.

    I believe you've read TLS, and this is a prime example of the language barrier that Dr. Feser discussed. The implications are the same as in the book; the ideas are not really engaged but rather talked past.

    ciao,
    Michael

    ReplyDelete
  113. Anonymous:

    I’ll tell you what. Define the terms that we seem to differ about, and we’ll proceed from there. As Michael pointed out, I don’t want to be making the mistake of misreading my own assumptions into Aquinas’ system. So, I would appreciate definitions from a Thomist standpoint of “similarity” and “property”.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Josh:

    The answer to your second question is, I believe, no, but the task for you to defeat Clarke's example is to provide univocal meanings of the terms that make up your definition of 'knowledge' such that we can apply it to a man and dog univocally. See, I don't believe you can. I believe the effort will founder just like it did with Plato. Which means, in essence, that the situation is much worse than you thought! Given your definition of analogy, there is no possible way to meaningfully say that a man and animal both 'know' something.

    Here’s a first stab at finding a common univocal property that would support an analogy between the knowledge of a dog and the knowledge of a man: “Acquisition and utilization of true information about one’s environment”.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous:

    One more thing about the definitions. Just as much as it would be inappropriate to define terms in such a way as to deliberately exclude God, which is something that Feser often speaks about when complaining about scientism, so it is impermissible to arbitrarily define terms to sneak him in. So, if there is an accepted usage of a term, which logically implies certain atheistic conclusions, then it is illegitimate from my standpoint to change the definition in an ad hoc fashion to avoid that logical implication, which would just beg the question entirely.

    Just wanted to put that out there.

    ReplyDelete
  116. dguller

    Just awake, please be charitable in criticizing what follows!

    "One more thing about the definitions. [...] Just wanted to put that out there."

    I wouldn't start your post match analysis just yet. I say again that you are using terms equivocally here without realising it.

    "In fact, I think that we agreed that something along the lines of “apprehension of external information” was something that would work quite well."

    Michael, Josh, and George R. (in another thread) have pointed out that a property is a particular kind of accident that inheres in a subject by virtue of the subject's essence.

    Information, then, is not a property of vision when the subject is the *eye* (corporeal vision).

    In our earlier example, vision (corporeal and intellectual) does not have the common univocal property of "acquisition by the mind of external information" because is is essential of the eye that it detect (certain frequencies of) *electromagnetic radiation*, whereas the intellect grasps *truth*. The eye cannot see a proposition. The mind doesn't 'process' e-m. And yet you, we all, understand when one speaks of vision in both senses.

    We probably need to be stricter on using overly broad terms like 'acquire' and 'utilize' too in case we lose literally essential meanings.

    Perhaps there is yet some common univocal property, but I don't think your earlier examples (though admittedly persuasive at first blush) are the game clinchers that you think they are.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Dguller,

    Here’s a first stab at finding a common univocal property that would support an analogy between the knowledge of a dog and the knowledge of a man: “Acquisition and utilization of true information about one’s environment”.

    See, I respect that definition, I do, but then I must ask for the univocal sense that we are using the terms within the wider term, like 'acquisition' and 'utilization,' because it doesn't seem clear how man and animals share univocal properties according to those. At least, this is what Clarke seems to be pointing out.

    And of course, this isn't saying Aquinas is correct, it's just him trying to show that Nielsen's univocity of the transcendentals is not possible...

    Michael, Jack, et. al.,

    Any assistance is appreciated. I have Wuellner's Dictionary of Scholastic Philosophy at hand if definitions get problematic, but I am wary of Dguller's dictum that we can't necessarily sneak theism in the back door through them. It goes both ways of course.

    I do think 'property' is an ambiguous term, and since Dguller's argument seems to turn on a strict understanding of what one is, then it would be best to have all parties agreed on it. Plus, I think it needs to be repeatedly stressed that we are limiting our discussion to the transcendental analogical terms like “knowledge,” “love,” “activity,” “unity,” “goodness,” and “being,” otherwise we'll just be missing the whole point. Any examples of analogies that utilize physical/material properties are really not relevant.

    Jack, I think that's a good point re:the vision analogy. It shows that you can't discount the mode of being when you are referring to a transcendental analogy, I think.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Jack:

    In our earlier example, vision (corporeal and intellectual) does not have the common univocal property of "acquisition by the mind of external information" because is is essential of the eye that it detect (certain frequencies of) *electromagnetic radiation*, whereas the intellect grasps *truth*. The eye cannot see a proposition. The mind doesn't 'process' e-m. And yet you, we all, understand when one speaks of vision in both senses.

    First, it is the case that EMR is real, and thus true In that case, then perhaps I should modify my answer to “acquisition by the mind of objective truth”. How does that work?

    Second, are you telling me that it is not essential to the eye to take in formal properties of the physical world? How does the mind abstract formal properties from particular empirical experiences if those experiences do not carry the formal properties to the mind via our senses? My point was that there are two ways to acquire knowledge of formal properties, via the senses and via the intellect. I don’t think Aquinas would disagree with this, and if it is true, then the common univocal property of “vision” that they share is the acquisition of formal properties of the external reality. Unless you want to say that EMR has no formal properties at all?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Josh:

    See, I respect that definition, I do, but then I must ask for the univocal sense that we are using the terms within the wider term, like 'acquisition' and 'utilization,' because it doesn't seem clear how man and animals share univocal properties according to those. At least, this is what Clarke seems to be pointing out.

    “Acquire” can mean “to take possession of something outside oneself”, and “utilization” is “to use it for a purpose”. Unless you want to say that animals do not take possession of anything outside themselves, such as territory or food, or that they do not use anything outside themselves, I really don’t see how you can avoid that this is perfectly reasonable.

    I do think 'property' is an ambiguous term, and since Dguller's argument seems to turn on a strict understanding of what one is, then it would be best to have all parties agreed on it.

    So can we use Jack’s definition of property to be “a particular kind of accident that inheres in a subject by virtue of the subject's essence”? But then I’m confused. I thought an “accident” was a property that did not belong to a substance’s essence? According to the all-knowing Wikipedia: “Aristotle made a distinction between the essential and accidental properties of a thing.” And this distinction seems to be between necessary and contingent properties of a substance. Or do I have this wrong?

    Plus, I think it needs to be repeatedly stressed that we are limiting our discussion to the transcendental analogical terms like “knowledge,” “love,” “activity,” “unity,” “goodness,” and “being,” otherwise we'll just be missing the whole point. Any examples of analogies that utilize physical/material properties are really not relevant.

    Okay. But you need to keep in mind that just because one must use other words to explain these terms does not mean that they cannot be univocal. Otherwise, no terms would be univocal at all (including “univocal”!), because they all are explained by virtue of other words. So, the fact that any explanation of these transcendentals cannot be simply discounted simply because other words are used. Does that make sense?

    Another point. Are now saying that univocal preservation of meaning only applies to physical and empirical phenomena? Or, that it applies to everything, except transcendental terms?

    ReplyDelete
  120. For this discussion to move forward, I need to know the Thomist definitions of "similar" and "property". We have started on the latter, but haven't touched the former. We need both.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  121. @djindra:

    "At best a half-truth and you admitted so yourself: we cannot deduce the properties of water from knowledge of hydrogen and oxygen. Most things cannot be deduced. And those things that are deduced are not considered valid until confirmed by observation."

    No I did not admit that; what I admitted was, guessing on what *you* mean by "logical proof" then we cannot deduce the properties of water. The problem is mathematically intractable, so such a proof while in *principle* possible, it is impossible in practice and all sorts of approximations, phenomenological considerations, the right level at which to study the problem, etc. (in other words, what physicists do) take the center stage and drive the explanation.

    "We can deduce things that should be true if QM is true, but that's as far as we can go. Empirical verification is the center point of the process. Empirical verification "justifies" (tentative) the theory, the mathematical deduction does not. It points the way to the empirical test that will either corroborate or falsify the theory itself. You seem to be scientifically illiterate on this."

    Ah, yes, mr. djindra calling me a scientific illiterate. Feel free to label me anyway you want; I just suggest you take your "proof" and your "position" and discuss it in an open room, before an audience of trained physicists.

    "And as I mentioned earlier, you have adjusted your logic. Logic is now not deterministic. Why was Aristotle's deterministic logic not enough?"

    Boy, you are thick. I am not going to repeat myself; for the answer to this, see my previous post.

    "*If* QM were logically inconsistent, as you hold, it would mean that it would exist a proposition P such that QM proved both P and not-P.

    And it does. Light is a wave (P) and not a wave (not-P). A "particle" of light seems to be at P and not at P. I rest my case."

    By Gosh, you got it! QM is logically contradictory! And such a simple one-line proof that *all* the physics researchers missed for an entire century. Wow, Einstein and N. Bohr could have learned a few things from you.

    Go learn QM, especially about the principle of complementarity. Note also that the principle is closely tied to a *specific interpretation* of QM, the Copenhagen interpretation.

    ReplyDelete
  122. dguller

    "Unless you want to say that EMR has no formal properties at all?"

    Of course EMR has formal properties. But everything is *some* thing. And yet not *every* thing can be 'taken in' by the eye's vision. Only real things emitting or reflecting certain frequencies of e-m radiation. For example it is not essential for the eye's vision to "acquire" "objective truth" of a logical proposition.

    So even modified to “acquisition by the mind of objective truth”, I'm still not sure you have captured a *property* of the eye's vision.

    But now I'm repeating myself, and you're correct to say definitions of similarity and property would only help.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Jack:

    Of course EMR has formal properties. But everything is *some* thing. And yet not *every* thing can be 'taken in' by the eye's vision. Only real things emitting or reflecting certain frequencies of e-m radiation. For example it is not essential for the eye's vision to "acquire" "objective truth" of a logical proposition.

    It doesn’t have to be. Look, all I have to do is find some univocal property in common between the vision of the intellect and the vision of the eyes. I have done so. The fact that you can find properties that they do not share in common is irrelevant. No-one is saying that they share every property in common, else they would be identical, only that they share at least one property, and I have provided that property.

    And if I can do that, then I have shown yet again that a comparison between two terms requires at least one univocal property in common, and if that is true, then Aquinas’ account of analogy is wrong.

    So even modified to “acquisition by the mind of objective truth”, I'm still not sure you have captured a *property* of the eye's vision.

    So, it is not a part of the nature (or essence) of the eye to acquire objective truths about the world around it?

    But now I'm repeating myself, and you're correct to say definitions of similarity and property would only help.

    Can someone provide them?

    ReplyDelete
  124. Dguller,

    So, it is not a part of the nature (or essence) of the eye to acquire objective truths about the world around it?

    No, otherwise the camera would 'know' the image imprinted on the film.

    “Acquire” can mean “to take possession of something outside oneself”, and “utilization” is “to use it for a purpose”. Unless you want to say that animals do not take possession of anything outside themselves, such as territory or food, or that they do not use anything outside themselves, I really don’t see how you can avoid that this is perfectly reasonable.

    Easy, because those words don't have exactly the same meaning when we use them to refer to our specific activity of knowing. Because we have intellect, our mode of knowing is essentially different; "acquisition" won't have a univocal meaning, because our mode of "acquiring" can't be understood in the same way as the animal. Univocality requires a perfect likeness in one aspect, right? Well, with these transcendental activities, "being," "knowing," etc., you can't separate the mode of being when referring to them. It's an essential part of the definitions. Which is why the only way to know them well at all is to refer to each varied particular activity, and say, "you see how they're the same?" even though you can't express linguistically the perfect likeness to be had.

    So, the fact that any explanation of these transcendentals cannot be simply discounted simply because other words are used. Does that make sense?

    As long as all the words used in the definition retain the same univocal meaning across the likeness, then I'm fine with that. But I think it's fairly clear that you can never get a perfect likeness of these transcendental activities with words. Univocality, as far as I understand it, can't be just an approximation; it has to be a perfect likeness.

    Another point. Are now saying that univocal preservation of meaning only applies to physical and empirical phenomena? Or, that it applies to everything, except transcendental terms?

    I'm not sure, there seem to be four distinct types of analogy, from what I've been reading. All I'm sure about is that it is the transcendental activity terms that are the focus of the relation of creatures to God.

    ReplyDelete
  125. dguller

    Rev. Coppens, in his text book of logic and mental philosophy, says the following about "property":

    "When [a] concept expresses something that flows or results so necessarily from the very essence that the essence cannot exist without it, and that note never exists but in such an essence, such note is called a property or attribute of that essence."

    Now, how *necessary* is the "acquisition of objective truth" to the eye's vision? In particular can you honestly say that "the acquisition of objective truth about the world" never exists but in the eye's vision? Can we not also "acquire objective truth about the world" by hearing speech or any sound?

    This shows that, in fact, you haven't identified a common univocal *property* between the eye's vision and the intellect's vision at all. And your argument really depends on doing that, doesn't it?

    ReplyDelete
  126. Josh:

    No, otherwise the camera would 'know' the image imprinted on the film.

    Of course, the eye would have to be part of a knowing and perceiving mind. And if someone lost their eyes, but had cameras put in, then they would still be seeing something. After all, the eye is just the transmitter of visual information that must be processed by a knowing subject. Anyway, none of this affects the common univocal property between sensory vision and intellectual vision as “acquiring objective truths about external reality”.

    Easy, because those words don't have exactly the same meaning when we use them to refer to our specific activity of knowing. Because we have intellect, our mode of knowing is essentially different; "acquisition" won't have a univocal meaning, because our mode of "acquiring" can't be understood in the same way as the animal.

    Not at all. The mode of acquisition does not have to be the same, only the fact of acquisition. In other words, at time t0, one lacked possession of objective truth X, and at time t1, one has possession of objective truth X. The specific manner of the acquisition of X is irrelevant. That would be relevant to the further division of different ways of acquiring objective truths. Otherwise, it would be like saying that an automobile and a motorcycle cannot be both examples of “vehicles”, because one has four tires and the other has two. All that matters is that both are automated devices that move individuals from one location to another. The specific way that happens is irrelevant.

    Univocality requires a perfect likeness in one aspect, right? Well, with these transcendental activities, "being," "knowing," etc., you can't separate the mode of being when referring to them. It's an essential part of the definitions. Which is why the only way to know them well at all is to refer to each varied particular activity, and say, "you see how they're the same?" even though you can't express linguistically the perfect likeness to be had.

    Let’s focus upon “knowing” for now. Are you saying that animals do not acquire information about their environments that guides their behavioral responses? Sure, the type of acquisition of such information and their understanding of it will radically differ from human acquisition and understanding, but can you honestly deny that they learn from their environment through the processing of sensory information by their central nervous systems? So, not only old dogs, but even new dogs, can’t learn new tricks??

    Again, you are looking for identity when all I need is similarity. In the former case, two terms must share all properties in common, and in the latter, two terms must share at least one property. I really hope that you can see the difference.

    As long as all the words used in the definition retain the same univocal meaning across the likeness, then I'm fine with that. But I think it's fairly clear that you can never get a perfect likeness of these transcendental activities with words. Univocality, as far as I understand it, can't be just an approximation; it has to be a perfect likeness.

    Try me. I’ve provided my interpretation of “knowing”, for example. Be my guest, and show how none of the terms can possibly be understood in a univocal way when comparing animals and humans. So far, you have asserted that it is impossible. Now, it only remains for you to demonstrate it.

    Oh, and I'm still waiting for the definitions of "property" and "similar", according to Thomism.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Jack:

    Now, how *necessary* is the "acquisition of objective truth" to the eye's vision? In particular can you honestly say that "the acquisition of objective truth about the world" never exists but in the eye's vision? Can we not also "acquire objective truth about the world" by hearing speech or any sound?

    First, you seem to admit that there is a common univocal meaning between the eye’s vision and the intellect’s vision, but are complaining that other senses can also share in this common property. That is a different critique than saying that a common univocal property is impossible.

    Second, why does sight have to be the only type of vision? Blind people would beg to differ.

    This shows that, in fact, you haven't identified a common univocal *property* between the eye's vision and the intellect's vision at all. And your argument really depends on doing that, doesn't it?

    With regards to your definition of “property”, I just want to make sure I understand it correctly. Are you saying that X has a property P iff P is part of the essence or nature of X and P only exists as part of the essence or nature of X? In other words, if two entities, X and Y, have different essences, then they cannot share a common property P at all? In other words, I could not say that dogs and cats both share a common property of “being an animal”?

    And if this definition makes this statement impossible, then what exactly would you call the aspect of “dog” and “cat” being both examples of animals? What would you call “being an animal” in that case, if not a property? That is what is necessary for my argument, and whatever you call that, you can replace the word “property” in all my arguments, and replace them with X, and they will still be valid.

    If your only critique is that I have been using an artificially narrow definition of “property”, and thus my arguments are invalid, then just translate all my arguments by changing “property” to whatever Thomists use to describe what beings with different essences have in common.

    ReplyDelete
  128. dguller

    No I do not admit a common univocal property between the eye's vision and the intellect's vision. They are similar analogically, *not* by dint of a shared property.

    "In other words, I could not say that dogs and cats both share a common property of “being an animal”?"

    No, according to Coppens: a dog and cat share the genus of "animal". But "animal" is not a property of dog or cat.

    Any mistakes in the above are, of course, mine, not the Reverend's.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Jack:

    No, according to Coppens: a dog and cat share the genus of "animal". But "animal" is not a property of dog or cat.

    Fine, call it a “genus” then. I find it curious that you cannot say that dogs and cats share the property of belonging to the genus of “animal”, but that’s unimportant. The point is that they share something. Whatever this something is, retains the same meaning when describing a dog or a cat, and that is what I am referring to in my arguments.

    This is a bit frustrating, because I think that you know what I mean when I talk about a “shared property”, and you can easily translate your Thomist terms into mine. I mean, can you honestly say that you had no idea what I was talking about?

    I can make it even easier for you. I am using “property” in the same way that Aristotle does, and thus there are essential properties and accidental properties, but they are all properties. And really, that is all that I need for my argument. You have to show me how it is possible for two terms to have nothing in common and yet still be similar, because that is what Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy amounts to. Unless you are saying that they do have something in common, but that we simply have no idea what it could be, except for some “vague” and “indeterminate” hints?

    ReplyDelete
  130. Dguller,

    Again, you are looking for identity when all I need is similarity.

    You need an identical concept in the middle. And it's no good to provide an example like you do with the car/motorcycle, because you can abstract from those things a generic or specific nature. Not so in the case of intellectual/physical vision. Do you see why? The latter lacks a perfection; the property of immaterial knowing is not there to abstract and apply to the concept to make it univocal. "Acquisition" with respect to the eye means the physical processes of photons hitting the eye, because that is what is proper to it's nature. Hence Jack's definition of property. "Acquisition" with respect to the intellect means abstracting from a phantasm. The two words have completely different meanings, and I don't see how you can appeal to univocality in that analogy.

    I think the problem is that we are considering acts, which must take into account the nature of the being that is acting. "As a thing is, so does it act," that sort of thing?

    I don't of course doubt that animals "know," or are "good," etc., I just doubt that there is a univocal core (that we can know perfectly) that binds the activities between two modes of being.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Josh:

    Not so in the case of intellectual/physical vision. Do you see why? The latter lacks a perfection; the property of immaterial knowing is not there to abstract and apply to the concept to make it univocal. "Acquisition" with respect to the eye means the physical processes of photons hitting the eye, because that is what is proper to it's nature. Hence Jack's definition of property. "Acquisition" with respect to the intellect means abstracting from a phantasm. The two words have completely different meanings, and I don't see how you can appeal to univocality in that analogy.

    The point is that they share something from the outside entering the mind and being used to guide behavior. That could be due to sensory information or conceptual analysis. Both are referring to something real outside the mind that impacts it. Can you agree that this happens?

    Hell, we can even go more basic. Instead of saying that something from the outside does impact the mind, then let’s just say that it seems to impact the mind. That would allow hallucinatory visions, as well. In other words, there is the experience of something outside of oneself impacting something inside oneself.

    I suppose that you could deny that when one sees a tree (sensory vision) or apprehends a mathematical theorem (intellectual vision), that one does not have an “experience”, that one has not connected with something “outside” oneself that is now “inside” oneself, but I think that would be quite a stretch, because that would require redefinitions of “experience”, “outside” and “inside”. Do you really doubt what these terms mean?

    ReplyDelete
  132. dguller

    Second, why does sight have to be the only type of vision? Blind people would beg to differ.

    But it isn't, and I never said it was! We've explicitly been discussing, as one example, corporeal vision and intellectual vision to explore how the analogy of vision in the eye and the mind works; so I'm a little confused by your question.

    (Now I'm struggling to keep up!)

    ReplyDelete
  133. Dguller,

    Do you really doubt what these terms mean?

    It's a strange conversation we seemed destined to have, because, no I don't doubt they have a meaning, but I doubt whether we can know it given your terms, that's all.

    Both are referring to something real outside the mind that impacts it.

    Yes, but that refers to the object of knowing, not knowing itself, which is the term under scrutiny. And if "as a thing is, so does it act" is a sound principle, I'm not sure how we can scrutinize and abstract a concept of the act without understanding how the act is manifested in a thing. I don't think we can adequately consider these terms as completely neutral logical entities.

    Maybe you are a Scotist at heart, Dguller. If the univocity of Being is something you accept, then I would say all this difficulty should disappear for you.

    Maybe this quote can kind of get at the idea a little better:

    "The terms beauty, goodness, justice, unity, causality, etc., are none of them, any more than intelligence or will, univocal. Not one of these expresses a generic or specific nature; as do, e.g., such terms as color, extension, corporeity. We cannot by means of abstraction form concepts of them such that whenever and wherever they are predicated, they always mean the same. It is only when they are actually predicated [judgments] of a particular subject that we know the particular kind of goodness or beauty, etc. that is signified."

    I don't know, but I think I'm starting to see the outlines of the debate much better than I was in the beginning.

    ReplyDelete
  134. dguller

    "So, if there is an accepted usage of a term, which logically implies certain atheistic conclusions, then it is illegitimate from my standpoint to change the definition in an ad hoc fashion to avoid that logical implication [...]"

    I've found this has been a superb exchange. Excellent insights from all the contributors; I think Josh's most recent quote gets to perhaps the heart, but at least some vital organ, of it. And I'm very much looking forward to reading the challenging questions that you raise and further responses. But, while I'm waiting for the 49ers to kick off and reading more about the topic I'd like to respond to what you said above: let's remember how this all started - you were dwelling in selective agnosticism about reason *for no reason*. You serially wonder about some level or aspect of reality where principles such as the LNC may or may not 'operate'. Without that skepticism certain theistic conclusions are logically implied...

    In fact, you brought up analogical understanding of God in order to explain (via analogy!) what you mean about such radically different concepts of our reality that usual modes of understanding may not apply.

    So let me just put the following out there: 1) I do *not* think that Aquinas changed any definitions in an ad hoc fashion to avoid logical implications, or to flummox us (though it's possible that he has done either or both); 2) there's a short summary of some things analogy at Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy (I've only skimmed but section 6 seems relevant) and 3) you're very certain all of a sudden ;)

    ReplyDelete
  135. Jack,

    It has been a vibrant exchange, and I'm amused at the ironic turn things have taken as well. I'm now cast in the role of the skeptic, asking how we can even have analogical use of these terms applied to a lower level of being, due to a proper lack of univocality at the heart of the analogy. I keep hoping some of the older, more experienced Thomists could weigh in on this, because it's not the same old positivist-theist discussion going on.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Josh:

    It's a strange conversation we seemed destined to have, because, no I don't doubt they have a meaning, but I doubt whether we can know it given your terms, that's all.

    Actually, I am open to the possibility that the univocal meaning of the common property between two terms being compared may be difficult to determine, and that is why it can appear “vague” and “indeterminate”. That seems much more reasonable to me than to outright deny any such common property to ground the comparison.

    This is the only way that I can think of to save Thomist analogy. Otherwise, one is left to argue that there is no such common property being shared between two terms being compared, and then one is stuck having to explain exactly how two terms can be compared that have nothing in common.

    Yes, but that refers to the object of knowing, not knowing itself, which is the term under scrutiny. And if "as a thing is, so does it act" is a sound principle, I'm not sure how we can scrutinize and abstract a concept of the act without understanding how the act is manifested in a thing. I don't think we can adequately consider these terms as completely neutral logical entities.

    No, it refers to the total situation involving an external reality that is being engaged by a biological organism. If that is what you mean by how the “act is manifested in a thing”, i.e. to take into consideration the total context, then I’m in agreement. I’m not too sure how this helps your argument.

    My job is very simple. I just have to come up with something that animal knowledge and human knowledge has to have in common to justify a comparison between them. I think that I have done so on a few occasions, and your response is to point out how still differ in important ways. My problem with this response is that it is irrelevant. If you say that all X’s are P, then all I have to do is come up with a single X that is not-P, then your proposition is falsified. To say respond to my example of an X that is not-P with, “But X is also Q!” is irrelevant.

    Maybe you are a Scotist at heart, Dguller. If the univocity of Being is something you accept, then I would say all this difficulty should disappear for you.

    As I said at the beginning, my argument is not with all talk about divine properties, but only the Thomist account. The fact that Duns Scotus has an account that includes univocal divine properties is not relevant to this discussion, but it is an interesting historical aside.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Josh:

    "The terms beauty, goodness, justice, unity, causality, etc., are none of them, any more than intelligence or will, univocal. Not one of these expresses a generic or specific nature; as do, e.g., such terms as color, extension, corporeity. We cannot by means of abstraction form concepts of them such that whenever and wherever they are predicated, they always mean the same. It is only when they are actually predicated [judgments] of a particular subject that we know the particular kind of goodness or beauty, etc. that is signified."

    These are all assertions. I’m interested in the justification for these assertions. So far, the only argument in support of these assertions is that it is really, really hard to pin down a univocal meaning of certain properties. I disagree. “Really hard” does not equal “impossible”, and I think that I have offered pretty reasonable univocal shared properties to the examples that we have discussed. As mentioned, it just isn’t relevant to reply that the two terms being compared have significant differences. You have to show that my univocal shared property is not univocal. In other words, you have to show that the meaning of the words that I use actually has changed in such a way that they are actually different.

    Take the example that I just gave about vision. Both sensory vision and intellectual vision are “experiences of something from an outside reality appearing to enter our minds”. I am really curious which words in this common property are different from one term to the other. Sure, the kind of “experience” is different, and the kind of “outside reality” is different, but they are both still experiences of an outside reality. To use your terms, these are the wider classes (e.g. genus) of which subdivisions are possible. To object to this would make all analogy impossible.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Jack:

    In fact, you brought up analogical understanding of God in order to explain (via analogy!) what you mean about such radically different concepts of our reality that usual modes of understanding may not apply.

    Excellent summary. :)

    So let me just put the following out there: 1) I do *not* think that Aquinas changed any definitions in an ad hoc fashion to avoid logical implications, or to flummox us (though it's possible that he has done either or both);

    I sure hope he didn’t, and even if he did, then I’m sure he did it unintentionally.

    2) there's a short summary of some things analogy at Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy (I've only skimmed but section 6 seems relevant)

    I’ve read that section, and it was particularly helpful.

    and 3) you're very certain all of a sudden ;)

    Ha!

    ReplyDelete
  139. And thanks to all who have participated in this dialogue. It's a nice change from the typical debates on this blog, and I think that it's about a subject that all of us can benefit from discussing, no matter what the endpoint turns out to be.

    Great job, guys!

    ReplyDelete
  140. Dguller,

    Thank you for rolling along. I've been considering the recent points made, and I'm wondering if your definition of analogy could bear two questions:

    Do all analogies simply unpack into equivocal and univocal elements?

    And if so, then is all predication univocity?

    ReplyDelete
  141. Josh:

    Do all analogies simply unpack into equivocal and univocal elements?


    I’m not too sure what you mean. My position from the start is that X is like Y iff X and Y share (at least) one common univocal property.

    And if so, then is all predication univocity?

    Take “John is a dog”. This could mean either that there is a dog named John, or that there is a man named John who is unfaithful to his romantic partner. In this case, there is a predicate that involves equivocation. In fact, the subject is equally unclear.

    A better example would be “I’m seeing red”, which could either mean that I am seeing the color red or that I am angry. In that case, there is a predicate that is equivocal. Certainly, the context and the subsequent propositions would clarify which of the senses was intended, and then it would become univocal.

    ReplyDelete
  142. dguller et al,

    "You have to show me how it is possible for two terms to have nothing in common and yet still be similar, because that is what Aquinas’ doctrine of analogy amounts to."

    Can someone (re)post the quote where Aquinas says that an analogical term has nothing in common in its two uses applying to both God and creatures. I believe he said that they would not have any properties in common, but as was pointed out (or should have been), properties for Aquinas seem to be narrower in scope than what dguller allows. Which means that it might be possible to say that a similarity still exists whereas a common property does not.

    Also, I still don't see how all language about God being analogical destroys all philosophical knowledge about God. In Aquinas' exposition and in the logical order of ideas, the language about God comes only after we have established the existence of an Actus Purus, even if the 'existence' of that Actus Purus is used in an analogical way. It is still the case that we have a real relation to that Something out there, and this real relation implies the analogical usage (and therefore at least partial knowledge) of some terms and denies others.

    On analogy. I think Aquinas, though I might be wrong, uses the term as somewhat synonymous with what we would call relationship. And here I need some help... Aquinas uses two terms to dissect a relationship, mode of being and degree of being.

    --A static view of relationship would only seem to account for degree of being and neglect the mode. And since as we all know that created things are composites of at least two metaphysical principles, act of existence and essence, then it follows that both terms are important for a thorough examination of a relationship.

    Also, for my reassurance, someone please distinguish between an analogical term versus analogical predication. As I understand it, a single term is predicated analogically of two subjects, making it therefore an analogical term.

    Side note: though it may be that we cannot have any philosophical knowledge of God, it does not follow that God doesn't exist and atheism is true. Though of course I disagree with the position and do think that we actually do have knowledge of God.

    Food for thought.

    ciao,
    Michael

    ReplyDelete
  143. Michael,

    I think you are right to point out the things you do in your post. I don't recall which Aquinas quote suffices, but what I've been reading uses the term ratio to signify the "common property" that Dguller is getting at. It's defined most relevantly as : "a perfection of a thing but regarded as an object of thought and as really or mentally distinct from other perfections in it; a particular feature or characteristic of an object on which thought is focused." Given that definition, I don't think Dguller's use of 'property' is bad, but it is the univocal nature that is under scrutiny.

    Also, I think you are right to point out the primacy of the arguments that come before any talk of divine name predication. It is deductively established before about God being Pure Act, as well as simple. These things guarantee the truth of the judgments of the divine attributes if they are sound.

    Dguller,

    I've been thinking more about your definition and I really wonder how it is substantially different from univocity. It just seems to reduce down to that. I can say, "Man is like a Horse with respect to the common univocal property of Animal," but that's just the univocal understanding of Animal. If I try to apply a property to two beings in two different genera, then by definition there is no common univocal property, because they are in two different genera. Is it really this simple, or am I missing something?

    ReplyDelete
  144. Michael:

    I believe he said that they would not have any properties in common, but as was pointed out (or should have been), properties for Aquinas seem to be narrower in scope than what dguller allows. Which means that it might be possible to say that a similarity still exists whereas a common property does not.

    I already said that I am not using “property” in the narrow way that Aquinas does. You can call what I mean “predicate”, “attribute”, or whatever you want. I am referring to the terms and concepts that define what something is.

    Also, I still don't see how all language about God being analogical destroys all philosophical knowledge about God. In Aquinas' exposition and in the logical order of ideas, the language about God comes only after we have established the existence of an Actus Purus, even if the 'existence' of that Actus Purus is used in an analogical way. It is still the case that we have a real relation to that Something out there, and this real relation implies the analogical usage (and therefore at least partial knowledge) of some terms and denies others.

    But if after establishing the Actus Purus, you then deny any univocal common “property” (as per my definition), then you haven’t established anything at all. You have pulled the rug out from under your demonstration by making us unable to understand “Pure” and “Act”. In fact, it would be a reductio ad absurdum. If you remove this condition, then the demonstration works just fine.

    On analogy. I think Aquinas, though I might be wrong, uses the term as somewhat synonymous with what we would call relationship. And here I need some help... Aquinas uses two terms to dissect a relationship, mode of being and degree of being.

    My focus is upon the principle of proportionate causation. For X to cause Y to do A, X must already possess A to give to Y. There is a sharing or transfer of a common “property” A from X to Y. In other words, fire has heat, and can cause meat to cook by transferring heat from itself to the meat. If you deny the need for common univocal “properties”, then you make the principle of proportionate causation incoherent, because you are saying that nothing is shared between X to Y.

    Again, you are not saying that there is something shared, but we simply cannot come up with a clear understanding of what it is due to a number of limitations on our part. Instead, you are saying that there is actually nothing being shared, which I put to you is just incoherent.

    Side note: though it may be that we cannot have any philosophical knowledge of God, it does not follow that God doesn't exist and atheism is true. Though of course I disagree with the position and do think that we actually do have knowledge of God.

    Of course.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Josh:

    I've been thinking more about your definition and I really wonder how it is substantially different from univocity. It just seems to reduce down to that. I can say, "Man is like a Horse with respect to the common univocal property of Animal," but that's just the univocal understanding of Animal. If I try to apply a property to two beings in two different genera, then by definition there is no common univocal property, because they are in two different genera. Is it really this simple, or am I missing something?

    Can you give a non-divine example of two beings from two different genera that have nothing in common?

    ReplyDelete
  146. grodrigues,

    "I just suggest you take your 'proof' and your 'position' and discuss it in an open room, before an audience of trained physicists."

    Feynman: "I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. The theory of quantum electrodynamics describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."

    Yet in your mind this absurdity must be labeled as logical or logically consistent. We see things differently, no doubt about that.

    ReplyDelete
  147. @djindra:

    "Yet in your mind this absurdity must be labeled as logical or logically consistent. We see things differently, no doubt about that."

    There you go again pretending to know what is in my mind.

    It was *you* who claimed that QM was logically inconsistent, not me. Logical inconsistency has a very precise definition that everyone with even the most basic knowledge of logic knows. It was *you* who presented a one-line proof of the inconsistency of QM and finished "I rest my case". It was *you* that pretended that somehow there is some radical incompatibility between classical logic and probability.

    I could go on listing some more of your idiocies, but all you have shown with your "proofs" and your "claims" and your "positions" is that you are nothing more than a wilful, petulant ignorant who enjoys spouting nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  148. grodrigues,

    "Logical inconsistency has a very precise definition that everyone with even the most basic knowledge of logic knows."

    Your "logic" is ad hoc. As with math, you delude yourself into thinking tools and truth derived from tools are pure and isolated from empirical facts. But it's clear here that your definition of "logic" changes with empirical evidence. Modification is required to make the tools work. The absurd must be called logical. Logic must be made to conform to the absurd.

    "It was *you* who presented a one-line proof of the inconsistency of QM and finished 'I rest my case'."

    It was you who put up your standard of proof. Logic demands that P cannot be not-P. QM fails that standard. What more do I need to say after that?

    "It was *you* that pretended that somehow there is some radical incompatibility between classical logic and probability."

    So did Aristotle discuss Quantum Logic? Why "Quantum Logic" instead of more of the same old-fashioned logic? Why the qualifiers? Try thinking instead of barking your disapproval.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Dguller,

    Can you give a non-divine example of two beings from two different genera that have nothing in common?

    Wait, before I do that, did we settle how your definition differs substantially from a univocal predication?

    ReplyDelete
  150. Josh:

    Wait, before I do that, did we settle how your definition differs substantially from a univocal predication?

    First, I don’t know what definition you are referring to. My definition of “analogy”? My definition of “similar”? My definition of “identical”? My definition of “property”?

    Second, can you provide an example now, please?

    ReplyDelete
  151. Dguller,

    Because I think your definition is basically the so-called "analogy of inequality":

    analogy of inequality, a univocal likeness in the generic or specific nature with unlikeness (a) in the specific difference of the species within the same genus or (b) unlikeness in the degree of perfection that members of the same species possess the common nature. Type a is sometimes called the analogy of genus; for genus, in a sense, differs in its species.

    It's "analogy according to being but not according to concept" --Aquinas

    And: "For the logician,
    therefore, who deals only in concepts, this is simply a case of univocal predication, but for metaphysics and the philosophy of nature which are concerned with the very being of things, it is a case of equivocity."

    Maybe that's why all the confusion...that's not really what analogy is, which is "resemblance without identity," or "simultaneous likeness and unlikeness in a given respect or perfection between two or more beings, or their natures, parts, functions, accidents, operations, relations, etc.; imperfect likeness between unlike beings."

    ReplyDelete
  152. Dguller,

    Sorry, your definition of analogy. I haven't given an example because if this definition is reducible to univocal predication, then we would just be talking past each other.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Josh:

    Great. The example?

    ReplyDelete
  154. @djindra:

    "Your "logic" is ad hoc. As with math, you delude yourself into thinking tools and truth derived from tools are pure and isolated from empirical facts. But it's clear here that your definition of "logic" changes with empirical evidence. Modification is required to make the tools work. The absurd must be called logical. Logic must be made to conform to the absurd."

    Once again, you reading your obsessions into my words. "My" definition of logic changes with empirical evidence? Another display of intellectual dishonesty? Math can live without empirical feedback (hey, can you tell me where can I go for the "occasional empirical feedback" to ascertain the validity of the proof of Fermat's last theorem by Andrew Wiles? Or the Poincare conjecture by Perelman? Or the Weil conjectures by Deligne? Or Diaconescu theorem? Or the Feit-Thompson theorem? Or of Goedel's theorems? Because I am worried, since that mathematical authority mr. djindra, said that without empirical feedback as these "math truths may be in doubt"), but certainly not physics and I never claimed otherwise.

    Another pearl: "The absurd must be called logical. Logic must be made to conform to the absurd." Don't you even realize that when Feynman was talking about absurdity he was talking in an informal sense, absurd as in defying our ordinary notions and expectations gathered from experience with the macro world? Of course you do not, because your knowledge is little more than some crumbs scraped off the bottom of "QM for the real complete and utter dummies".

    "It was *you* who presented a one-line proof of the inconsistency of QM and finished 'I rest my case'.

    It was you who put up your standard of proof. Logic demands that P cannot be not-P. QM fails that standard. What more do I need to say after that?"

    You are thick as doorknob. Your "proof" is nothing but a brain fart because QM does *NOT* say that a quantum particle is both a wave and not a wave. I told you to go read about the principle of complementarity and even advised you that it is closely tied to the Copenhagen interpretation. Have you heard of the Afsher experiments? Of the Cramer's relational interpretation?

    You do not have to believe me. Announce to the world that QM is logically contradictory. Go on. If your proof is accepted you will be showered with accolades and I will be proven a fool that has hampered the progress of science. So why don't you write a paper with your one-line proof? Since nobody until now has discovered such a logical contradiction, I am sure physicists will be very interested in your findings.

    "It was *you* that pretended that somehow there is some radical incompatibility between classical logic and probability.

    So did Aristotle discuss Quantum Logic? Why "Quantum Logic" instead of more of the same old-fashioned logic? Why the qualifiers? Try thinking instead of barking your disapproval."

    You do not know what quantum logic is. If you had read my post with a minimum of attention, you would have noticed that I inserted a parenthesis saying that it has many problems like lack of distributivity and no obvious definition of implication operator so applying to it the term logic is controversial at best. But all this is irrelevant; a physics student taking a 2 semester course on QM like I did, never even learns what quantum logic because until now, even if it has generated some interesting mathematical structures, it has proven to be something of a dead end. Everything in QM can and is developed within the confines of classical logic.

    And you persist in your idiocy of thinking that somehow there is a radical incompatibility between logic and probability, that somehow, probability has overthrown logic. You must really love showing off how ignorant you are.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Dguller,

    If you want an example of two things with nothing in common, I don't see the point, because that's not what I said. Obviously all things are analogically related in Being. But for instance, predicating healthy of food and animal where what is in common is not understood according to your definition of analogy is an example of a different type of relation.

    Are we to amending the definition of analogy yet?

    ReplyDelete
  156. Josh:

    If you want an example of two things with nothing in common, I don't see the point, because that's not what I said. Obviously all things are analogically related in Being. But for instance, predicating healthy of food and animal where what is in common is not understood according to your definition of analogy is an example of a different type of relation.

    Okay, this is getting frustrating. And the fact that you are back with this “healthy” stuff just adds to it. Try to put together an analogy between healthy food and a healthy animal. Food is a like an animal in that they are both healthy. First, that analogy doesn’t even make sense. Second, even if it did, then there is a common property of “healthy” that is caused by the ingestion of the food and is possessed by the organism ingesting the food. Again, saying that “X causes P” and “X is P” still presupposes “P” in both that must retain its meaning. I really don’t see why the “healthy” example is such an obvious objection to my account of analogy.

    And if “all things are analogically related in Being”, then my definition of “analogy” is true. Remember: X is like Y iff X and Y share a common univocal property P. In this case, P = Being, and my definition holds. You still haven’t provided a counter-example that falsifies my definition! If you cannot, then that is fine.

    Furthermore, you are changing your position. If you are now saying that if two things are compared, then they must have something in common, then what exactly is the problem? The only question is whether this “something in common” is the same thing in both things, or if it is different. I say that it is the same thing, and you say that it is neither the same nor different, which is like saying it is “not-(p or not-p)”, which is just contradictory. There has to be some univocal meaning in your sentences, or it all becomes slippery, vague and indeterminate. And if that is the case, then you have no idea what you are talking about, because you cannot determine the meaning of your statements (i.e. they are indeterminate).

    ReplyDelete
  157. @grodrigues

    The guy you're arguing with is a know troll. Its best to let trolls 'die' than feed them otherwise sooner or later you can't be told apart.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Dguller,

    You're probably right, I can see this starting to repeat on itself. So, lest I sour any future encounters, we can call this one closed. I'm sure it will come up in the future, and perhaps then I'll have learned a bit more myself. Cheers!

    ReplyDelete
  159. Josh:

    No problem. Let me know if you ever find out a coherent way to compare two terms that lack a common property (broadly defined)! I'm really interested, because even now, I think this is completely incoherent.

    Take care!

    ReplyDelete
  160. dguller,

    “But if after establishing the Actus Purus, you then deny any univocal common “property” (as per my definition), then you haven’t established anything at all.”

    Well it is a good thing that I do not share your definition of property. My post should be understood using the word with the narrower scope. I have no problem with your statement that analogical predication has something in common, even that it has a common property (your definition). But may I point out that if Aquinas is not using your definition of property, than he probably isn't disagreeing with you.

    “Again, you are not saying that there is something shared, but we simply cannot come up with a clear understanding of what it is due to a number of limitations on our part. Instead, you are saying that there is actually nothing being shared, which I put to you is just incoherent.”

    But the former is closer to what I am saying. Because when I say that there is no shared property, I am using “property” in the narrow sense, not the catch-all that you do. I whole-heartedly agree that there is something being shared. I think we agree at least on that.

    You define “property” differently than Aquinas.
    And you define “analogy” differently than Aquinas.

    So where's the beef?

    Anyways, here are my current musings for why you should have a more narrow definition of “property”:
    It may be helpful to keep in mind the underlying metaphysical framework when using “univocal” and “analogical”. Roughly, they both involve “terms” that are directed towards essences in some way. Naturally, comparison first and foremost occurs between essences by the medium of ratios—this is primary. The level of essences is what naturally fulfills our way of knowing (we apprehend essences). Only secondarily and in a less natural way can comparison be invoked between “sub-essentials” or “sub-ratios”. This more removed and therefore less natural comparison no longer deals with the apprehension of essences but instead the partial comprehension of “sub-ratios”. Considering the way we come to know things, since this kind of comparison is less immediate than the former, it is therefore subordinate to the comparison of essences.

    You don't seem to recognize the natural priority of the one kind of comparison over the other, and therefore you miss the differing epistemological qualities between the two kinds of comparisons. Your definition of “property” can jump from essence to sub-ratio depending on the scenario, whereas Aquinas' definition cannot. Therefore to avoid confusion, it might be wise to capture the finer distinctions by falling into line with Aquinas' definitions. Or at least further refining your own.

    Anyone?

    ReplyDelete
  161. “sub-ratios”... there seems to be a hierarchy of them. My last post was meant to only deal with the most primitive of them.

    Perhaps I should rather describe it as a sub-ratio of a sub-ratio, something that isn't formally divisible in principle. But I would have to think this out more...

    ReplyDelete
  162. Michael,

    Would your "sub-ratios" be coextensive with 'accidents'?

    ReplyDelete
  163. Michael:

    may I point out that if Aquinas is not using your definition of property, than he probably isn't disagreeing with you.

    Great. So, if there is something in common, then does this “something” have a univocal meaning that is shared between the two things being compared? That is actually the issue here.

    You don't seem to recognize the natural priority of the one kind of comparison over the other, and therefore you miss the differing epistemological qualities between the two kinds of comparisons. Your definition of “property” can jump from essence to sub-ratio depending on the scenario, whereas Aquinas' definition cannot. Therefore to avoid confusion, it might be wise to capture the finer distinctions by falling into line with Aquinas' definitions. Or at least further refining your own.

    Perhaps some examples would help to flesh out your ideas?

    ReplyDelete
  164. Dguller,

    At the risk of imposing on your goodwill, I just had a couple of questions. Why did we abandon the distinction between sense and reference, or as the Scholastics say, the res significata and the modus significandi? Don't you need both for any complete meaning? And any true univocal meaning would mean these two are exactly the same, I would think. Looking back over our long discussion, I see the modus significandi or sense being treated as irrelevant, but Aquinas I think believes there is an indissoluble unity between them in relation to meaning. If this is the case, I think there is something wrong with your definition of analogy.

    Keeping that in mind, (X is like Y iff X and Y share (at least) one common univocal property.), perhaps an example (not original to me):

    Playing golf is like murdering someone with a golf club, because both share the univocal property of hitting something with a golf club.

    Now the problems as I see them are two; (1)your definition is reducible to univocal predication: we are forced to say these two activities are identical, and (2)this is clearly absurd. The problem is the sundering of the res significata, hitting something with a golf club, from the modus significandi, how you're swinging it and what the intention is behind it.

    If we can't separate these without losing meaning, then I think Aquinas has an opening.

    These are my musings, anyway, and I promise not to continue on if it abuses your good graces...I'm just a touch bored on my day off.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Josh:

    Looking back over our long discussion, I see the modus significandi or sense being treated as irrelevant, but Aquinas I think believes there is an indissoluble unity between them in relation to meaning. If this is the case, I think there is something wrong with your definition of analogy.

    I don’t think it is irrelevant. My thinking is that the sense of a term is trying to capture true properties or attributes of the referent, and that sense matches reference when this happens. I’m not too sure what I have written that would give you the idea that the sense is irrelevant. In fact, all we have been talking about is the sense of certain terms!

    Playing golf is like murdering someone with a golf club, because both share the univocal property of hitting something with a golf club.

    Sure, that works.

    Now the problems as I see them are two; (1)your definition is reducible to univocal predication: we are forced to say these two activities are identical, and (2)this is clearly absurd. The problem is the sundering of the res significata, hitting something with a golf club, from the modus significandi, how you're swinging it and what the intention is behind it.

    I don’t understand your point at all. “Hitting something with a golf club” is univocal between playing golf and murdering someone with a golf club. That is why you are able to compare the two at all. Of course there are other factors that make the two situations differ, otherwise they would not be similar but identical. I don’t think it has anything to do with sense or reference at all.

    Take the following analogy: A car is like a horse, because they are both fast. Your argument would be like saying, “Yeah, but a car is fast because of an engine and tires, and a horse is fast because of legs and muscles! So, that means that cars are identical to horses!” I hope you can see why that makes no sense.

    These are my musings, anyway, and I promise not to continue on if it abuses your good graces...I'm just a touch bored on my day off.

    No worries. Glad to continue the conversation.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Dguller,

    I’m not too sure what I have written that would give you the idea that the sense is irrelevant.

    Quote: "Just because there is a moral dimension involved in the form and end of human nature that is absent from triangular nature is irrelevant."

    Sure, that works.

    Really? Because when I see that analogy, I see equivocity...the sense is primary for the meaning, yet it's predicated on the (trivial) referent. In other words, playing golf is really nothing like murdering someone with a golf club. I didn't think there would be controversy on this point.

    I don’t understand your point at all. “Hitting something with a golf club” is univocal between playing golf and murdering someone with a golf club. That is why you are able to compare the two at all.

    Of course, logically, you are correct. The referents can be divorced from their senses, and produce a valid comparison. But in actual predication/judgment, it's ridiculous. Analogy has to take into account what is same and different at the same time of the predication, otherwise the meaning will be lost. My point is that you can't just consider the same part in your definition, you have to include in the predication what is different as well.

    A car is like a horse, because they are both fast. Your argument would be like saying, “Yeah, but a car is fast because of an engine and tires, and a horse is fast because of legs and muscles! So, that means that cars are identical to horses!” I hope you can see why that makes no sense.

    See what happened here? The chosen univocal core, "fast," as the referent, is primary to the analogates, and therefore, it seems like we can forget about what is secondary, i.e., the senses in which each are fast. In the golf analogy, "hitting something with a golf club" is secondary in importance to the meaning and one of the analogates. Perhaps a better way of saying it is that it is accidental in the case of the murder, and essential in the case of playing the game. Do you kind of see what I'm getting at? That's why "property" needs to be understood in terms of substance and accident, I think.

    Still just kind of thinking out loud here, I know...

    ReplyDelete
  167. Let me amend that to what is essential for the meaning of an analogy, sense or reference has to be considered primarily in forming it (I believe)...

    ReplyDelete
  168. Josh

    You should take more days off.

    Contrasting dguller's example with your golfing example (where did you get that?) has cleared up a lot for me. Thanks (both) for your last few posts.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Jack,

    Thanks, I'll tell my boss that I need more time off to "ruminate on the Analogy of Being" and I'll email you a picture of his non-plussed expression.

    I'm still a long, long way from comprehending what Aquinas is up to. Cajetan (and his supposed misreading/misclassification of types of analogy) is sort of clouding a direct understanding for me, and my own imperfect reading has probably led to many errors in the combox here.

    That golf example came from the fellow Texan branemyrs, at his blog titled Siris (I think)? He had a related post and I asked him some questions. I think for something to be univocal it has to have one sense and reference employed in its meaning, and I think the golf analogy shows why.

    Jump in whenever you think of something that might clarify my thoughts!

    ReplyDelete
  170. Josh:

    Quote: "Just because there is a moral dimension involved in the form and end of human nature that is absent from triangular nature is irrelevant."

    Because they are both natures. I don’t see what this has to do with sense or reference. The sense of “nature” refers to nature.

    Really? Because when I see that analogy, I see equivocity...the sense is primary for the meaning, yet it's predicated on the (trivial) referent. In other words, playing golf is really nothing like murdering someone with a golf club. I didn't think there would be controversy on this point.

    Actually, it is like murdering someone with a golf club, because they both involve hitting something with a golf club. Seriously, if you deny that they both involve this common behavior, then I don’t know what to say. Watch someone murder someone with a golf club, and then watch someone hitting a golf ball. They are both hitting something with a golf club. How they hit something is different, why they hit something is different, and what they hit is a different “something”, but so what? The core common property means the exact same thing. To prove otherwise, you would have to show that “hitting”, “something” and “golf club” change meanings from one context to another. Good luck with that.

    Of course, logically, you are correct. The referents can be divorced from their senses, and produce a valid comparison. But in actual predication/judgment, it's ridiculous. Analogy has to take into account what is same and different at the same time of the predication, otherwise the meaning will be lost.

    First, I never said your analogy was a good one. It’s actually terrible, but it’s still an analogy. So, if you think your analogy is ridiculous, then you are right. But if you think that its ridiculousness implies that it is not an analogy, then you are just wrong. I can come up with a ridiculous argument, but it is still an argument.

    Second, analogy does “take into account what is same and different”. That is how analogy differs from identity. In identity, the two compared terms are exactly the same. In analogy, the two compared terms are similar, which implies that they are not identical, and thus must have some aspects that are the same, but others that are different.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Josh:

    My point is that you can't just consider the same part in your definition, you have to include in the predication what is different as well.

    As I mentioned, both are implied by “similar”.

    The chosen univocal core, "fast," as the referent, is primary to the analogates, and therefore, it seems like we can forget about what is secondary, i.e., the senses in which each are fast. In the golf analogy, "hitting something with a golf club" is secondary in importance to the meaning and one of the analogates. Perhaps a better way of saying it is that it is accidental in the case of the murder, and essential in the case of playing the game. Do you kind of see what I'm getting at? That's why "property" needs to be understood in terms of substance and accident, I think.

    Whether a property is primary or secondary, the only important point is that it is shared between the two compared terms. Maybe you can say that if the property is primary, then the analogy is better than if it is secondary, but they are both still analogies.

    Still just kind of thinking out loud here, I know...

    You and me both, buddy.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Dguller,

    I think perhaps that we are talking past each other now on some aspects of this. I agree that two things must have a similar something within each that forms the basis of where they are alike. I suppose then, that it is the understanding that that something is understood univocally that I don't get.

    X is similar to Y iff X and Y share at least one common univocal property.

    How about X is exactly like Y with respect to at least one common univocal property? That's what I'm saying through the golf analogy; since you aren't including the difference in your definition, then I am forced to understand the analogy as predicating "exactly like" as opposed to "similar," because all that's contained in the definition is the sameness.

    If the analogy is bad, then what makes one good? Perhaps that's a clue. It's obviously logically consistent, so it's not on that account.

    ReplyDelete
  173. Dguller,

    Also:

    Because they are both natures. I don’t see what this has to do with sense or reference. The sense of “nature” refers to nature.

    Not sure I understand what you mean here. If we're predicating good of triangles and man, then I'd take the sense to be according to each respective nature (of man and triangle), and the reference to be to the definition/property of goodness.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Josh,

    “Would your "sub-ratios" be coextensive with 'accidents'?”

    Maybe, but I mainly wanted to talk about the sub-ratio of sub-ratios, if that makes any sense at all. I am struggling to express the idea—I don't really know. I think some formal “things” are too simple for the mind to properly subdivide them, at least not in an utmost natural and univocal way.
    And thanks for bringing back the thing and way distinction, but I thought it was a degree of being and mode of being distinction...?

    “Great. So, if there is something in common, then does this “something” have a univocal meaning that is shared between the two things being compared? That is actually the issue here.”

    My point is that univocal, properly understood, would not apply. Perhaps on your definition it would, but as per Aquinas' it seems that it would not. You seem to be using the terms “univocal” and “analogy” with different definitions then that of Aquinas. So again, where's the beef?

    Anyways, I think we aren't being precise enough with how we use “univocal”, “analogical”, ect. A univocal term is a single term that is predicated of two different subjects (think of two separate sentences) and has the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree and mode of being are identical across contexts). An analogical term is very similar except that the term doesn't have the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree OR mode doesn't apply across contexts) but at the same time it isn't equivocal. These terms are primarily a linguistic thing. But you will have to note that for Aquinas, as well as for Aristotle, linguistics are tied up with epistemology, philosophical anthropology, and metaphysics, hence the importance of the distinction between degree and mode of being and hence the understandable fluidity and impreciseness in our discussions—there is a lot to unpack.

    “Perhaps some examples would help to flesh out your ideas?”

    Maybe. But I don't think I could do it justice, and moreover not in a way that wouldn't just be restating examples of analogical language about God. It was hard enough for me to say what I did. Meh.

    And dguller addressing Josh:
    “First, I never said your analogy was a good one. It’s actually terrible, but it’s still an analogy.”

    According to you, sure. But the more important thing in the current context is figuring out if Aquinas would think it is an analogy or not, on his terms.

    I really think a key to a better understanding of all of this is to better understand the way we come to know things and the underlying metaphysics. Get the metaphysics and then it is more likely that the epistemology will be gotten.

    Interesting, interesting.

    ciao,
    Michael

    ReplyDelete
  175. Michael,

    Anyways, I think we aren't being precise enough with how we use “univocal”, “analogical”, ect. A univocal term is a single term that is predicated of two different subjects (think of two separate sentences) and has the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree and mode of being are identical across contexts). An analogical term is very similar except that the term doesn't have the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree OR mode doesn't apply across contexts) but at the same time it isn't equivocal. These terms are primarily a linguistic thing.

    This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to get at, albeit in a clumsy manner. For Aquinas, a term in predication is a concrete term, which can be represented as 'that which has X,' where X is the thing signified, and "that which has" the way it is signified. Given that, a proper definition of univocal terms are those which not only have the same X, but the same way of having it in all the relevant uses. Equivocal terms have different Xs. Analogous terms, then, have the same X signified in different ways(although there is more added to this definition).

    If we take this as proper, then it's fairly clear to see where Dguller and I have been differing. The term predicated of two similar things must contain not only the univocally understood property (res significata), but the different ways it is signified (modus significandi).

    I think from this it's clear to we that he and I have both been partially right and wrong all throughout.

    Applying this new understanding to the golf example, we can see why it fails (somewhat--I'm still working on this):

    Playing golf is like murdering someone with a golf club with respect to "hitting something with a golf club" (our X). Logical analogy? Ok, but it doesn't seem right. Dguller agrees it is a bad analogy. But why?

    For Aquinas, analogy is predicated with "reference to one" primarily, called the ratio propria, or proper sense, or controlling/primary meaning. So perhaps the analogy is poorly ordered in this way. But I'll have to mull on that notion, unless any one else has ideas...

    ReplyDelete
  176. Josh:

    I agree that two things must have a similar something within each that forms the basis of where they are alike. I suppose then, that it is the understanding that that something is understood univocally that I don't get.

    Good, so we agree that there must be a common “something” that is shared between two things in order for any comparison to be possible. Without this “something”, they are completely different, and cannot be compared at all.

    How about X is exactly like Y with respect to at least one common univocal property? That's what I'm saying through the golf analogy;

    I do not know what “exactly like” means. Do you mean “exactly alike”, as in “identical” and “the same”? If you mean that, then X and Y do not just share “at least one” common univocal property. In fact, they share all their properties in common, because X = Y! If you mean “similar”, then they share some properties – i.e. those that actually make a comparison possible – but they do not share all their properties, otherwise they would be identical.

    since you aren't including the difference in your definition, then I am forced to understand the analogy as predicating "exactly like" as opposed to "similar," because all that's contained in the definition is the sameness.

    But I am including “difference” in my definition. It is implied by “similar”. I never said “same” or “identical”. The only thing that must be the “same” is the common “something” that is shared between the two things. That must be the same at some level for any comparison to be possible.

    If the analogy is bad, then what makes one good? Perhaps that's a clue. It's obviously logically consistent, so it's not on that account.

    I have no idea.

    Not sure I understand what you mean here. If we're predicating good of triangles and man, then I'd take the sense to be according to each respective nature (of man and triangle), and the reference to be to the definition/property of goodness

    Right. They are good iff they exemplify their nature. That’s it.

    For Aquinas, a term in predication is a concrete term, which can be represented as 'that which has X,' where X is the thing signified, and "that which has" the way it is signified. Given that, a proper definition of univocal terms are those which not only have the same X, but the same way of having it in all the relevant uses. Equivocal terms have different Xs. Analogous terms, then, have the same X signified in different ways(although there is more added to this definition).

    Again, under that definition, there is no such thing as univocal meaning, and incidentally, no such thing as equivocal meaning, either! There is no univocal meaning, because there are always differences from one sentence to the next with regard to predicates. As I mention to Michael, a red car and a red apple are red in different ways, both in terms of the shade of red, and in terms of what object is red, and thus “red” here is not univocal. And there can be no equivocal meaning, because equivocal meaning is where there are a number of univocal meanings possible, but the context makes it impossible to determine which one. So, no univocal meaning, no equivocal meaning. It seems that you have undermined all of language!

    ReplyDelete
  177. Michael:

    A univocal term is a single term that is predicated of two different subjects (think of two separate sentences) and has the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree and mode of being are identical across contexts).

    Really? So, I cannot say that a red car and a red apple share a univocal meaning of “red”? Their degree of being will be different, because they likely have different shades of red. Their mode of being is different, because one is manifested by a vehicle and another by a fruit. I mean, by this definition, nothing is univocal. And if nothing is univocal, then nothing can be equivocal, either, because equivocal just means that there are more than one univocal meanings possible, but a single one cannot be determined by the context. So, you end up undermining all language by this position!

    But I don't think I could do it justice, and moreover not in a way that wouldn't just be restating examples of analogical language about God.

    Does that mean that there are no non-divine examples of two terms being compared that have no common univocal attributes (or predicates, or qualities, or properties, or whatever you want to call it)? And if that is the case, then it seems that these definitions are simply tailor made to justify talk about the divine, and actually aren’t rooted in our world at all! That seems incredibly ad hoc.

    An analogical term is very similar except that the term doesn't have the exact same meaning in both contexts (degree OR mode doesn't apply across contexts) but at the same time it isn't equivocal. These terms are primarily a linguistic thing. But you will have to note that for Aquinas, as well as for Aristotle, linguistics are tied up with epistemology, philosophical anthropology, and metaphysics, hence the importance of the distinction between degree and mode of being and hence the understandable fluidity and impreciseness in our discussions—there is a lot to unpack.

    Again, I don’t want to get into a terminology turf war here. There are referents out there that our terms are trying to refer to. I am referring to the shared attributes that things have in common. You can further subdivide this into different divisions, but this is the general idea. Does Aquinas agree that there is such a thing in reality as shared attributes? Or does he argue that there is simply no such thing? If he agrees with it, then he would agree that comparison between two terms would be on the basis of these shared attributes, right? I mean, upon what other basis could a comparison be made? And if he would agree with this, then why can’t these shared attributes have identical referents at some level, which I argue is at the level that drives the comparison, because the differences are not relevant to the comparison (even though they are present)?

    ReplyDelete
  178. dguller:

    "Really? So, I cannot say that a red car and a red apple share a univocal meaning of “red”?"

    But of course you can. Mode of being in this case would be *accident* as neither the car and the apple, though they have to be some colour, need be "red".

    If that shade of red was essential to the thing, mode of being would be *property*.

    As long as mode of being for both is property or mode of being for both is accident then Univocity is not in any danger, and hence equivocity is safe too (assuming degree of being is also the same).

    ReplyDelete
  179. Actually I'm definitely in error in thinking aloud at the end of my last.

    Property could not be shared by two things. Only if mode of being for both is accident do you have univocity (and assuming degree is the same).

    Sorry about that.

    Regarding your example of a red car and red apple - perhaps it would be strictly correct to say that unless the shade is the same you don't have a univocal meaning? Surely we've all argued about whether that turquoise is really blue or green?

    ReplyDelete
  180. Jack:

    Why is the distinction between "property" and "accident" significant and relevant? On your definitions, one could never compare two beings based upon their properties, but one could based upon their accidents. That just means that any analogies based upon properties are impossible, but analogies based upon accidents is possible.

    So, say there is a being that has a number of properties (P1, P2, P3) and a number of accidents (A1, A2, A3). If I wanted to understand this being, then I would have to understand it based upon P1, P2, P3, A1, A2, and A3, right? Now, I could not understand P1, P2 and P3 based upon analogy, but could I understand them based upon their univocal meaning? And if I cannot, then how can I understand them at all? And it seems that we could understand A1, A2 and A3 just fine in a univocal fashion, and if not, then at least by analogy with other beings that also have A1, A2 and A3.

    So, again, what is the point of this distinction? How does it help your case at all?

    ReplyDelete
  181. dguller

    And I think, perhaps, this is the difference between your analogy and Aquinas's.

    Could it be that things like goodness only ever have an *accidental* mode of being in us? In God, however, they'd be *properties* and so no univocal meaning is possible between the two types of goodness. But we cannot say the two "goodness"s are equivocal as they're not wholly dissimilar in meaning.

    It's not that your definition doesn't work for what you want it to do, it's just unnecessary for what Aquinas was trying to do.

    ReplyDelete
  182. Jack:

    Could it be that things like goodness only ever have an *accidental* mode of being in us? In God, however, they'd be *properties* and so no univocal meaning is possible between the two types of goodness. But we cannot say the two "goodness"s are equivocal as they're not wholly dissimilar in meaning.

    But that won’t work, either.

    Say that there is “goodness” as an accident in humans and “goodness” as a property in God. Either “goodness” is the same in both cases (i.e. univocal), or different in both cases (i.e. equivocal), or similar in both cases (i.e. analogical).

    Aquinas argues that it cannot be univocal or equivocal, but rather must be analogical. However, analogy implies similarity, and “similar” just means that some attributes are the same and some attributes are different. If you have another definition of “similar”, I’m all ears. That is how something can be both the same as and yet different from something else. What is the same (i.e. shared attributes) is distinct from what is different (i.e. unshared attributes).

    So, the further question is what do we make of the shared attributes? Are they to be understood as univocal, equivocal or analogical? Well, we are back to square one. They cannot be univocal or equivocal, as per Aquinas’ statements. And they cannot be analogous, because analogy presupposes similarity, which presupposes some common and some uncommon attributes. And then we are back to what to do about the common attributes again, and unless we can reach solid ground in a univocal meaning somewhere it all becomes an infinite regress. That is why a previously cited author described the content of analogies as “indeterminate”, “vague” and “transcendent”. It never rests anywhere, and just becomes a slippery and unclear content.

    This has been my argument from the beginning, and no-one has shown me where I am wrong, except to say that I am misusing the term “property”. Fine, but even if we stick to the Thomist definition of “property” as an attribute that is only present in a particular being, then I would argue that without univocal meaning, we have no idea what these properties would be. They cannot be analogy, because analogy presupposes some common ground between things being compared. We all agree with that. And yet Aquinas’ definition of “property” makes this impossible, and thus these “properties” have no content at all!

    ReplyDelete
  183. Dguller,

    Leaving aside the particular divine names, we can see why all this confusion has happened.

    Aquinas considers the term in the middle of a predication to be a concrete term.

    Triangles--Goodness--Man

    The term in the middle is univocal iff the property (in the sense you've been using it) or X, or res significata, is the same, and the way of signifying or way of being is the same.

    It's analogical if the X is the same, but the senses or ways are different.

    So when you've been saying "common univocal property", I was applying this definition above, because it is Aquinas'. But the term itself being predicated of two things has a unity between sense and reference that you can't dissolve.

    So, I am clearly showing you what is wrong with the way you've been looking at analogy. It is the composition of the middle term. It's different from Aquinas'.

    Obviously, if the "way of being" side of it, or sense, wasn't proportioned to a being's essential way of being, then we'd have different names for everything, and end up with Spencer's Pluriverse or something. Obviously, the accidents of each analogate are not taken into account with respect to the sense (unless that's what the predication is built on)...there would be no distinctions of genus and species if that were the case.

    ReplyDelete
  184. dguller

    The more I think I know, the less I understand!

    I can see your point (up to a point!) and by that I mean:

    1) I can't think of anything else that *is* its property.

    2) However for God that is the case and

    3) this makes Aquinas's approach illegitimately ad hoc for you

    I can only agree with you but ask: is there anything as unique as God!?

    Right now, I'm following Michael's suggestion and reading up on process of knowing to see if I can get a handle on the metaphysics and see any clearer.

    Let me run this by you in the meanwhile: do you think it's possible to describe to someone blind from birth what it is to see?

    Could you say you know what it is to do X without ever having done X?

    Now given that X could share accidents with some Y, a knower could know what it is *like* to do X. Still some essential property of X would elude the knower. (this, I think, is the analogy your defn captures)

    But if X has no accidents we're stuck unless X itself could be accidental to some Z. So: explaining sight to blind-man - while the blind-man cannot see, he will have knowledge of spatial awareness via touch and hearing. Now even if sight has no accidents (which may not be the case) it is itself an accident of spatial awareness. So in that way at least (and there may be others) it would be possible for a blind-man to know what it's *like* to see.

    Yes? No?

    ReplyDelete
  185. Josh:

    The term in the middle is univocal iff the property (in the sense you've been using it) or X, or res significata, is the same, and the way of signifying or way of being is the same.

    It's analogical if the X is the same, but the senses or ways are different.


    Okay. Let’s clarify some terms (with examples). What do you mean by “way of signifying”, “way of being”, and “senses or ways”? And why are these terms valid?

    Obviously, if the "way of being" side of it, or sense, wasn't proportioned to a being's essential way of being, then we'd have different names for everything, and end up with Spencer's Pluriverse or something. Obviously, the accidents of each analogate are not taken into account with respect to the sense (unless that's what the predication is built on)...there would be no distinctions of genus and species if that were the case.

    I actually do not understand any of this. Could you clarify?

    ReplyDelete
  186. Jack:

    I can see your point (up to a point!)

    Phew! Thank God someone gets what I’m trying to say! ;)

    I can only agree with you but ask: is there anything as unique as God!?

    That’s fine, but then how to we talk about something that is absolutely unique? That is what this discussion is all about. There must be some commonality between our concepts and God, whether due to sameness or similarity, or else we are not talking about him at all, and only pretending to do so.

    Let me run this by you in the meanwhile: do you think it's possible to describe to someone blind from birth what it is to see?

    Not entirely, but partially. The blind know the difference between near and far by virtue of sound and touch, for example. I think that most of it would be – ha ha – by analogy with their other senses, but this would presuppose some common properties between their other senses and sight.

    Could you say you know what it is to do X without ever having done X?

    If X is similar to other things that I have done, then sure. I have never ran a marathon, but I have run 10 km. I have never flown a plane, but I have ridden in a plane.

    Now given that X could share accidents with some Y, a knower could know what it is *like* to do X. Still some essential property of X would elude the knower. (this, I think, is the analogy your defn captures)

    I agree with this. I am open to the possibility that there are aspects of the divine nature that are always going to be beyond our comprehension and understanding. My question is whether there are any that are within the bounds of our understanding and comprehension. So far, according to the Thomist framework, this does not seem to be the case.

    But if X has no accidents we're stuck unless X itself could be accidental to some Z. So: explaining sight to blind-man - while the blind-man cannot see, he will have knowledge of spatial awareness via touch and hearing. Now even if sight has no accidents (which may not be the case) it is itself an accident of spatial awareness. So in that way at least (and there may be others) it would be possible for a blind-man to know what it's *like* to see.

    Absolutely. By analogy. That’s why analogy is so useful. It allows us to understand things we do not know by virtue of their similarity to things that we do know. That is why an electron is like a particle and like a wave.

    So, it seems that you and I are on the same page. :)

    ReplyDelete
  187. dguller

    "So, it seems that you and I are on the same page. :)"

    A very tentative (but hopeful!) "maybe" on that. I say, "Maybe," because I don't think I see your disagreement with Aquinas any more.

    Because God has no accidents (Summa First Part, Question 3, Article 6) and because "goodness" has an accidental mode of being in creatures isn't it just the case that there can be no univocal meaning (ie, mode differs), and so we must understand God's Essential Goodness analogically via our knowledge of the "goodness" accidental in other things?

    ReplyDelete
  188. Jack:

    Because God has no accidents (Summa First Part, Question 3, Article 6) and because "goodness" has an accidental mode of being in creatures isn't it just the case that there can be no univocal meaning (ie, mode differs), and so we must understand God's Essential Goodness analogically via our knowledge of the "goodness" accidental in other things?

    Again, the question is how this is even possible. Either there is “something” that remains the same whether an accident in creatures or a property in God that buttresses this analogy, or there is nothing in common, and then how can one have an analogy when there is nothing in common between the two terms?

    ReplyDelete
  189. Jack:

    Also, how can something be an accident in humans but a property in God to begin with? I thought a property was supposed to be an attribute that is only found in a particular being, and not shared with others. In that case, it would be impossible for God to have a property X and humans to have an accident X. Unless there is a way for only God to have X, and yet humans have X, too, which drains “only” of any meaning, much like “similar” has been drained of meaning.

    Again, there just seem to be too many inconsistencies and contradictions in this account.

    ReplyDelete
  190. dguller

    Yep, I screwed up.

    Going back to reading - don't want to let this go, but I've been guilty of contributing before really understanding. Sorry if I've aggravated any confusion.

    ReplyDelete
  191. Jack:

    No problem. Let me know what your reading turns up.

    Take care.

    ReplyDelete
  192. Hello again gentlemen!

    Jack, Dguller, et. al.,

    Just as it is futile to try to hammer a nail with a sponge, all attempts to predicate the divine attributes will fail unless we use the correct tool. We need to agree on the correct basic form of analogy, or at least, understand what Aquinas was using.

    Now:

    Okay. Let’s clarify some terms (with examples). What do you mean by “way of signifying”, “way of being”, and “senses or ways”? And why are these terms valid?

    Good idea; I'll try to stick with the man/triangle/goodness thing throughout, since we both have Feser's book. Here's Aquinas:

    "Therefore as to the names applied to God---viz. the perfections which they signify, such as goodness, life and the like, and their mode of signification"

    That shows Aquinas' understanding of the concrete term (df. above) in the middle of the analogates.

    So what does the mode of signification mean? In Feser's example of the triangle-good-man, 'good' is the concrete term, the "that which has X," and X is "exemplifying the form and end of a substance’s nature" (Dguller's definition from earlier). However, that just tells us what is common, and we only have a predication of partial univocity if we stopped there. We have to include how the two analogates "exemplify" goodness differently. Only then will we have a full analogy. This "that which is" part of the concrete term, this "mode" of "exemplification" of the good, or "sense" to use the Fregean term as Feser does, is just as important and must be a part of the concrete term predicated of two similar things.

    I actually do not understand any of this. Could you clarify?

    I'll drop that stuff for now, I was merely affirming your point about univocity disappearing if we didn't recognize that the "sense" part of a term is joined to an essential characteristic of one of the analogates, and not just any trivial difference.

    I'll avoid the Latin terms though I think they are convertible with sense and reference. I'll try to stick with Feser's distinctions.

    ReplyDelete
  193. Josh:

    However, that just tells us what is common, and we only have a predication of partial univocity if we stopped there. We have to include how the two analogates "exemplify" goodness differently. Only then will we have a full analogy.

    And here is where we differ. Why do we have to include the “how” part of the common property? That just seems arbitrary. And exactly how much of the “how” do we have to include anyway?

    Take my earlier example of how an apple and a stop sign are similar in that they are both red. Let’s look at the “how” they are both red. Well, they could be different shades of red; one is red on a living entity and the other is red on an inanimate object; and one is red on a round surface and the other is red on a flat surface. So, I guess the “how” they are both red is only “partially univocal”, which means that they are not analogous at all.

    It seems that you agree that there is a common attribute, but then add the ad hoc condition of specifying certain arbitrary differences as if they were important.

    So, why this additional condition, and why is it important for any analogy to be possible?

    ReplyDelete
  194. Dguller,

    So, why this additional condition, and why is it important for any analogy to be possible?

    Because analogical predication by definition implies not just sameness, but difference according to a common term. Take your stop sign/apple example. They are both red. That's the X (according to my definitions). But how are they different with respect to X? This is just as important for the meaning of the analogy. You could say, one is an inorganic substance and the other is not, or whatever essential differences that are relevant.

    This is most important to agree on, because it is Aquinas' explicit understanding of analogy.

    ReplyDelete
  195. Josh:

    Because analogical predication by definition implies not just sameness, but difference according to a common term. Take your stop sign/apple example. They are both red. That's the X (according to my definitions). But how are they different with respect to X? This is just as important for the meaning of the analogy. You could say, one is an inorganic substance and the other is not, or whatever essential differences that are relevant.

    Do you not understand that “similarity” implies both sameness and difference? As I mentioned above, if X and Y are similar, then X and Y have some attributes that are the same and other attributes that are different. If X and Y are the same, then X and Y have all attributes in common.

    The point is that when one is making an analogy between two terms, then one is utilizing the similar relationship, and not the same relationship. Therefore, one is automatically and necessarily involving both same attributes and different attributes, which actually meets your criteria perfectly, as far as I can tell.

    Again, once one makes an analogy, then one is involving the similarity relationship, and thus one is automatically involving both same attributes and different attributes.

    So, I really do not understand your claim that my definition of analogy does not include differences. All analogies imply differences. But so what? What follows from this?

    And how does this refute the argument that I made above at November 16, 2011 8:31 AM? Honestly, I don’t see how any of this affects my argument against Thomist analogy at all.

    Can you help me out?

    ReplyDelete
  196. Josh, dguller, and Jack, thanks for posting. I have been able to learn through this discussion and am thankful for your role in it.

    dguller said:
    “Really? So, I cannot say that a red car and a red apple share a univocal meaning of “red”?”

    Thanks go mostly to Jack for the specific answer. If you are talking about red and not a specific shade, then the degree of being is the same, and since in both apple and car redness is accidental, both predications of “red” have the same mode of being. And thus, it is a univocal predication.

    And Jack, before I forget, I think you were close in saying that properties (dguller, not your definition but Aquinas') cannot undergo univocal predication. You definitely seem to be right with regards to God. But I wonder about, say for instance, two humans and the property of laughter? It seems to me that laughter could undergo univocal predication in this case.

    dguller continues:
    “I mean, by this definition, nothing is univocal.”

    Since it is actually a case of univocal predication as the example stands, this conclusion and anything that follows from it would be questionable.

    And further down:
    “Does that mean that there are no non-divine examples of two terms being compared that have no common univocal attributes (or predicates, or qualities, or properties, or whatever you want to call it)?”

    Under your definition of univocal, of course there are a no examples of comparisons that don't have some univocal core—they're comparisons! But again, your definition of univocal isn't the same as Aquinas' and is missing the finer discussion that it going on. I get your gist though. And I agree. The problem is that you are not getting detailed enough and are confusing univocal with identity. Univocal is first and foremost a linguistic tool that is not as simple as mere identity. Throw identity into the mix and you have to deal with tokens... yuck!

    “Again, I don’t want to get into a terminology turf war here.”

    But you need to get straight on the words and their definitions. Until your definitions match, you have yet to engage Aquinas' position. Of course, by all means criticize Aquinas' definitions! But just be careful not to assume his definitions match yours and proceed full-steam-ahead.

    “Does Aquinas agree that there is such a thing in reality as shared attributes? Or does he argue that there is simply no such thing? If he agrees with it, then he would agree that comparison between two terms would be on the basis of these shared attributes, right? I mean, upon what other basis could a comparison be made?”

    Yes, comparisons require something in common.

    “And if he would agree with this, then why can’t these shared attributes have identical referents at some level...”

    If the comparison utilizes a univocal term, then the degree and mode are identical in both predications. If the comparison doesn't then at least one of the two will not be identical. The parts of a referent in univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication should not be confused with referents, however identical the parts of the referent may be across both predications.

    If you take one thing away from this post it is this: the word “univocal” is not synonymous with “identical”.

    And for now I will ignore the accusation of ad-hoc-ness. Them be fighting words. We can go there later if you desire and reply to Gaunilo's reply.

    ciao,
    Michael

    ReplyDelete
  197. Dguller,

    Do you not understand that “similarity” implies both sameness and difference? As I mentioned above, if X and Y are similar, then X and Y have some attributes that are the same and other attributes that are different. If X and Y are the same, then X and Y have all attributes in common.

    Of course I do, and I don't take issue with what you say here. Except, that if your definition of analogy doesn't make the differences explicit, then the work is not done. Merely because I understand that some attributes are implied to be different is not good enough. They have to be made explicit in the predication, and they have to be differences in the property that is the basis of comparison.

    But so what? What follows from this?

    Aquinas' basis for analogy is properly understood, and then the real work can begin.

    Lemme see if I can make the difference clearer:

    X is like Y iff X and Y share (at least) one univocal property P. (Dguller)

    X is like Y iff X and Y share (at least) one referent according to different senses in each. (Mine, using Frege's terms)

    Even supposing I make "referent" stand for univocal property (not sure I can), there's still something in my definition that is not explicitly in yours. You can say it's implied, but I can look at your definition and nothing prevents me (aside from common sense) from saying that X and Y could share all properties; all we are concerned about is one. But then, that wouldn't be an analogy at all, I'm sure you'll agree. Aquinas' use is clearer.

    As to your earlier argument, we can't get to the divine attributes until Aquinas' definitions pass muster. Because the twofold division of types of analogy comes next; analogates are understood per prius et posterius; in primary and secondary order, where the primary sense or ratio propria is understood to be only in one of the analogates. Only one of the two types is applicable to God, according to Aquinas. But don't shoot holes in that yet, as we can't even see eye to eye on the difference in definitions...

    Michael,

    Thanks for your clarifications and assistance throughout!

    ReplyDelete
  198. Michael:

    If you are talking about red and not a specific shade, then the degree of being is the same, and since in both apple and car redness is accidental, both predications of “red” have the same mode of being. And thus, it is a univocal predication.

    But wait! You are ignoring the differences, and thus it is only partially univocal, according to Josh.

    But I wonder about, say for instance, two humans and the property of laughter? It seems to me that laughter could undergo univocal predication in this case.

    But remember that two humans could be laughing for different reasons, or in different circumstances, or in different manners of laughing, and so really, they aren’t univocal at all. Do you see what I mean? Once you start adding extra conditions, it just becomes arbitrary where you draw the line. It is easier to just focus upon the common attributes, and leave it at that. All this extra stuff doesn’t add anything, as far as I’m concerned.

    Since it is actually a case of univocal predication as the example stands, this conclusion and anything that follows from it would be questionable.

    So, you differ from Josh’s definition.

    But again, your definition of univocal isn't the same as Aquinas' and is missing the finer discussion that it going on. I get your gist though. And I agree. The problem is that you are not getting detailed enough and are confusing univocal with identity. Univocal is first and foremost a linguistic tool that is not as simple as mere identity. Throw identity into the mix and you have to deal with tokens... yuck!

    “Univocal” just means that the “same meaning” carries over from one sentence to another. Whether you are talking about the same sense or reference, the bottom line is that “something” has to remain the same for any comparison to get off the ground. If you are now arguing that “same” is different from “identity”, then I’m afraid we are now hopelessly lost in sophistry.

    If the comparison utilizes a univocal term, then the degree and mode are identical in both predications. If the comparison doesn't then at least one of the two will not be identical. The parts of a referent in univocal, analogical, or equivocal predication should not be confused with referents, however identical the parts of the referent may be across both predications.

    First, why aren’t the parts of referents themselves referents? For example, isn’t the redness of a car itself a referent, even though the redness is only a part of the car?

    Second, if the parts of the compared referents are identical, then why can’t we just say that those parts are what is driving the analogy, because those are the common attributes that are allowing a comparison to be possible?

    Third, can you give me some examples of comparisons where the mode and degree of a common attribute are different and thus compromise the analogy?

    Fourth, look at some common analogies: “Life is like a box of chocolates”, and “John fought like a lion”. What is the common attribute that drives these analogies, and do they share the exact same mode and degree?

    ReplyDelete
  199. Michael:


    And for now I will ignore the accusation of ad-hoc-ness. Them be fighting words. We can go there later if you desire and reply to Gaunilo's reply.

    It was more of an observation. There are these rules that we are supposed to follow when it comes to analogies, according to Aquinas. I was trying to understand the rationale behind those rules, such as the fact that the compared term must be identical in terms of both mode and degree, and no-one has explained why this additional condition is necessary. Until that happens, it seems ad hoc to me.

    Also, could you explain (with examples) what you mean by “mode” and “degree”?

    Thanks!

    ReplyDelete