A religion typically has both practical and theoretical aspects. The former concern its moral teachings and rituals, the latter its metaphysical commitments and the way in which its practical teachings are systematically articulated. An atheist will naturally reject not only the theoretical aspects, but also the practical ones, at least to the extent that they presuppose the theoretical aspects. But different atheists will take different attitudes to each of the two aspects, ranging from respectful or even regretful disagreement to extreme hostility. And distinguishing these various possible attitudes can help us to understand how the New Atheism differs from earlier varieties.
Consider first the different attitudes an atheist might take to the theoretical side of a religion. There are at least three such attitudes, which, going from the most hostile to the least hostile, could be summarized as follows:
1. Religious belief has no serious intellectual content at all. It is and always has been little more than superstition, the arguments offered in its defense have always been feeble rationalizations, and its claims are easily refuted.
2. Religious belief does have serious intellectual content, has been developed in interesting and sophisticated ways by philosophers and theologians, and was defensible given the scientific and philosophical knowledge available to previous generations. But advances in science and philosophy have now more or less decisively refuted it. Though we can respect the intelligence of an Aquinas or a Maimonides, we can no longer take their views seriously as live options.
3. Religious belief is still intellectually defensible today, but not as defensible as atheism. An intelligent and well-informed person could be persuaded by the arguments presented by the most sophisticated contemporary proponents of a religion, but the arguments of atheists are at the end of the day more plausible.
Obviously one could take one of these attitudes towards some religions, and another of them towards other religions. For example, a given atheist might take a type 1 atheist position with respect to Christianity and a type 2 atheist position with respect to Buddhism (or whatever). Or he might take a type 1 attitude towards some versions of Christianity but a type 2 or type 3 attitude towards other versions of Christianity.
Now, among well-known atheists, it seems to me that Quentin Smith is plausibly to be regarded as taking a type 3 attitude toward Christianity, at least as Christianity is represented by prominent philosophers of religion like William Lane Craig or Alvin Plantinga. Keith Parsons, by contrast, seems to take at best a type 2 attitude towards Christianity and maybe even a type 1 attitude. And Jerry Coyne seems almost certainly to take a type 1 attitude, though perhaps on a good day and with respect to at least some varieties of religious belief he’d move up to type 2. (I’m happy to be corrected by Smith, Parsons, or Coyne if I’ve got any of them pegged wrong.)
Now let’s consider three different attitudes an atheist could take toward the practical side of a religion, going again from the most hostile to the least hostile:
A. Religious practice is mostly or entirely contemptible and something we would all be well rid of. The ritual side of religion is just crude and pointless superstition. Religious morality, where it differs from secular morality, is sheer bigotry. Even where certain moral principles associated with a particular religion have value, their association with the religion is merely an accident of history. Moreover, such principles tend to be distorted by the religious context. They certainly do not in any way depend on religion for their justification.
B. Religious practice has a certain admirable gravitas and it is possible that its ritual and moral aspects fulfill a real human need for some people. We can treat it respectfully, the way an anthropologist might treat the practices of a culture he is studying. But it does not fulfill any universal human need, and the most intelligent, well educated, and morally sophisticated human beings certainly have no need for it.
C. Religious practice fulfills a truly universal or nearly universal human need, but unfortunately it has no rational foundation and its metaphysical presuppositions are probably false. This is a tragedy, for the loss of religious belief will make human life shallower and in other ways leave a gaping void in our lives which cannot plausibly be filled by anything else. It may even have grave social consequences. But it is something we must find a way to live with, for atheism is intellectually unavoidable.
Here too a given atheist might of course take attitude A towards some religions or some forms of a particular religion, while taking attitude B or C towards others. Once again, Jerry Coyne seems to be an example of an atheist whose attitude toward religion lays more or less at the most negative end (A). Perhaps Stephen Jay Gould took something like attitude B. Atheists of a politically or morally conservative bent typically take either attitude B or attitude C (though I know at least one prominent conservative who is probably closer to attitude A). Walter Kaufmann is another good example of an atheist (or at least an agnostic) who took something like attitude B towards at least some forms of religion. Indeed, he seemed to regard religion as something that speaks to deep human needs and whose moral aspects are of great and abiding philosophical interest.
Now these two sets of possible attitudes can obviously be mixed in a number of ways. That is to say, a given atheist might take a more negative attitude towards the theoretical side of a given religion and a more positive attitude towards its practical side, or vice versa. And he might take different mixtures of attitudes towards different religions or forms of religion. For instance, he might take attitudes 2 and C towards some kinds of religious belief, and 1 and A towards other kinds. Thus we could classify atheists according to their combinations of attitudes towards the practical and theoretical sides of religion or of a particular religion -- A1, B3, C2, and so forth.
An A1 atheist, then, would be the most negative sort, especially if he took an A1 attitude towards most or all forms of religion. A C3 atheist would be the most positive. At different times during my own years as an atheist, I would say that I tended to take either a B or C attitude towards the practical side of religion, and perhaps attitude 2 towards the theoretical side (at least until the latter part of my atheist years, when I started to move to 3 before finally giving up atheism). No doubt I had moments when I probably came across as more of an attitude 1 and/or attitude A type atheist with respect to at least some forms of religious belief -- it’s easier to remember specific arguments with people than what one’s general attitude was during a given year, say -- but overall I’d say that I probably hovered around B2 territory for at least much of my time as an atheist. (Walter Kaufmann was one of my heroes in those days. Indeed, Kaufmann’s attitude towards Christianity -- which was more negative than his attitude towards other religions -- influenced my own, and no doubt helped delay my eventual return to the Church.)
I find that atheists who fall on the most negative ends of these scales -- A1 territory -- are invariably the ones who are the least well-informed about what the religions they criticize actually believe, and the least rational when one tries to discuss the subject with them. And when you think about it, even before one gets into the specifics it is pretty clear that A1 is prima facie simply not a very reasonable attitude to take about at least the great world religions. To think that it is reasonable, you have to think it plausible that the greatest minds of entire civilizations -- Augustine, Aquinas, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Mencius, Buddha, Adi Shankara, Ramanuja, et al. -- had for millennia been defending theoretical and practical positions that were not merely mistaken but were in fact nothing more than sheer bigotry and superstition, more or less rationally groundless and morally out of sync with the deepest human needs. And that simply isn’t plausible. Indeed, it’s pretty obviously ridiculous. Even if all religious belief turned out to be wrong, it simply is not at all likely that its key aspects -- and especially those aspects that recur in most or all religions -- could have survived for so long across so many cultures and attracted the respect of so many intelligent minds unless they had some significant appeal both to our intellectual and moral natures. Hence a reasonable atheist should acknowledge that it is likely that attitudes 2 or 3 and B or C are the more defensible attitudes to take towards at least the ideas of the greatest religious thinkers and the most highly developed systems of religious thought and practice.
When one considers the prima facie implausibility of the A1 attitude together with the ill-informed smugness and irrationality of those who approximate it, it is pretty clear that its roots are not intellectual but emotional -- that it affords those beholden to it a sense of superiority over others, an enemy on which to direct their hatreds and resentments, a way to rationalize their rejection of certain moral restraints they dislike, and so forth. In other words, A1 atheism is pretty much exactly the sort of ill-informed bigotry and wish-fulfillment A1 atheists like to attribute to religious believers.
And here’s the thing: If there is anything new about the New Atheism, it is the greater prominence of atheists who at least approximate the A1 stripe. In Walter Kaufmann’s day, A1 atheism was represented by marginal, vulgar cranks like Madalyn Murray O’Hair. Now, equally vulgar cranks like Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Myers, and Coyne are by no means marginal, but widely regarded as Serious Thinkers. This is the reverse of intellectual progress. And we know what Walter Kaufmann would have thought of it.


Of course some of you guys got a way to go to become a Chuck or deguller.
ReplyDeleteBut not that long a way.
In the interest of getting everyone's labels right, as I am no longer an atheist it would probably be best to call me an "old atheist". As I recently turned 30, the "old" modifier seems terribly (and I must admit depressingly) apropos.
ReplyDeleteAnyway I can see how much better that is & completely non-traumatic vs telling kids about a Hell they can avoid with Faith.
ReplyDeleteExcept that hell doesn't exist, so you cannot avoid it with "faith".
Further, isn't it rather coercive to use the threat of eternal punishment to bludgeon someone who doesn't know any better into following your morals?
Anonymous said…Why should the idea that something is difficult to override and causes other destructive issues mean that something is WRONG?
ReplyDeleteObviously, it must be because morality follows nature — you see djindra is actually a crypto-thomist. If you've followed his career here closely (and I can't imagine why you would) he always disagrees with the A-T position, but when called upon to explain or defend his stance, he ends up making claims that make sense only if interpreted as agreeing with A-T principles. The only plausible conclusion is that he is following the logic of traditional Aristotelian metaphysics but is not conversant with the standard terminology. In other words, what we have here is failure to communicate. If you simply take djindra as meaning the opposite of what his words suggest, suddenly he makes a lot more sense.
James,
ReplyDeleteSomehow, perhaps due to a random quantum fluctuation or a rupture in the space-time continuum, I have instead posted a statement to the effect that ridicule should only directed at the religious.
It's a pretty easy point to follow, James. Think for a moment about "not ridiculing someone for teaching their child what they think to be the truth" compared to the condemnations of religious people bringing up their children in a faith they believe in.
If you want to turn around and say "No, that's rotten, the atheists who do that are condemnable", then by all means, go for it. I'd love to read it.
But when ridicule is neither useful nor reasonable, and phrased in an unsuitably general way (i.e. that it peeves someone whenever a naturalist expresses sentimentality), then it should be avoided.
Heh. Useful, or reasonable. So ridicule in that case is alright if it achieves a desired end (now her or others will stop teaching their children those beliefs, just as I want!)? Reason, in light of that, is a funny thing. And it "should be avoided"? Why? Is that an appeal to morality, mayhap?
Sometimes one is "baffled" because understanding comes with too high of a price.
Ben Yachov said:
ReplyDeleteSteersman is starting to come around more to philosophy and is trying to defend Positivism.
I’ve been “into” philosophy for quite some time, although I still have quite some way to go and I wasn’t much aware of the various “schools” until these discussions helped to develop that understanding. I ran across an observation – possibly by Dennett or Feser – to the effect that we can’t do without philosophy – the only question is whether to do it well or not – which I’m starting to think has a lot of merit.
But I’m really not trying to defend Positivism – partly because I don’t know enough to do so credibly – although Empiricism in general seems to have a lot of merit. And I want to understand why it seems out of favour. And likewise why it seems that so many in the theist crowd, particularly of the A-T school, apparently think, somewhat erroneously I would say, that that is the motivating philosophy of all atheists and secularists.
I have spoken all hail BenYachov!
Hail Ben Yachov! Emperor for the day. At least for the nonce.
BenYachov,
ReplyDelete"You are like djindra sans the psychotic left-wing conspiracy whinging."
I'm not left-wing.
>In the interest of getting everyone's labels right, as I am no longer an atheist it would probably be best to call me an "old atheist". As I recently turned 30, the "old" modifier seems terribly (and I must admit depressingly) apropos.
ReplyDeleteI hated turning 30 then I turned 40 & wondered what I was complaining about? I guess will be a real eyeopener in 7 years.
Anyway sorry for the mix up. So James what is your story? Theist? Deist? Hopeful Agnostic? Christian? Catholic Christian? Unitarian? What is the deal?
>Hail Ben Yachov! Emperor for the day. At least for the nonce.
ReplyDeleteI like it.
>I ran across an observation – possibly by Dennett or Feser – to the effect that we can’t do without philosophy – the only question is whether to do it well or not – which I’m starting to think has a lot of merit.
Which in spite of disagreements between us is a very non-Gnu thing to do. Naturally I like it.
>But I’m really not trying to defend Positivism – partly because I don’t know enough to do so credibly...
I accept you are the for most authority of what you believe and are about. Forgive me I was merely giving my impressions.
Cheers.
@Stone Tops
ReplyDelete>Except that hell doesn't exist, so you cannot avoid it with "faith".
Dude you have yet to learn enough philosophy to make the case for a materialist universe & or metaphysical naturalistic one. You have yet to make any philosophical arguments for Atheism. You have yet to show us philosophically how a Classic Theistic view of God is incoherent. You have yet to point out the flaw in any Philosophical Arguments for the Existence of God. You have yet to make a credible case against the resurrection or why we should buy Hume's bullshit anti-miracles shtick.
Yes I get you don't believe in God but that has nothing to do with the argument I made.
>Further, isn't it rather coercive to use the threat of eternal punishment to bludgeon someone who doesn't know any better into following your morals?
So an Atheist wouldn't teach his kid any morals or warn him there are adverse consequences to not following them? (i.e. You could get arrested! You could become a pariah & be alienated from the community. You will feel bad if you hurt people etc...).
I find that hard to believe.
Teaching any morals to anybody involved coercive punishment for not complying. Or are you an Anarchist Stone Tops?
As to teaching about eternal punishment that is no more coercive in my worldview than teaching my child he will starve to death if he refuses to eat.
But of course it must be handled rationally. I wouldn't read SINNERS IN THE HAND OF AN ANGRY to a 5 year old(of course it's Calvinist so I might not share it with my kids at all). But the point is try not to screw up your kids regardless of what you believe.
Just saying...
Dan,
ReplyDelete"Now, if what science means is observation of the physical world, then the question is: how can you scientifically demonstrate that your view is true?"
Science does not mean observation of the physical world but I'll answer your question anyway. The scientific method demonstrates it accumulates knowledge by its ability to predict future, verifiable events with far more accuracy than any other method. The word 'true' doesn't come into my mind. Science is a tool. A hammer is a useful tool for nailing wood together. But I wouldn't call a hammer 'true'.
As to teaching about eternal punishment that is no more coercive in my worldview than teaching my child he will starve to death if he refuses to eat.
ReplyDeleteGood analogy. I often compare the atheist complaint about Hell with a hypothetical person shouting "I would never obey a 'High Voltage' sign which threatens me with electrocution if I disobey!" or perhaps "I would never obey a 'Thin Ice' sign which threatens me with a freezing dunking for disobeying!"
I also turn it around to something quite simple: God would never force anyone into Heaven against that person's will.
Dude you have yet to learn enough philosophy to make the case for a materialist universe & or metaphysical naturalistic one.
ReplyDeleteNo need to use every increasing rationalizations disguised as philosophy for that. And unless you have a habit of trying to walk through walls then you accept the material universe as well.
The question is "is there anything more?" To which I'm rather comfortable saying "I see no evidence for such." Your continued attempts to rationalize such things into existence fall flat in the face of a universe that shows no signs of caring about what we might want to exist (no matter how elaborate we construct the arguments).
So an Atheist wouldn't teach his kid any morals or warn him there are adverse consequences to not following them? (i.e. You could get arrested! You could become a pariah & be alienated from the community. You will feel bad if you hurt people etc...).
Sure, but all those consequences can be readily demonstrated... Unless you can pull a Dante then no such demonstration can be made for hell (plus the very concept of hell is irrational).
Teaching any morals to anybody involved coercive punishment for not complying. Or are you an Anarchist Stone Tops?
Nope, but I rely on coercive punishments that can be demonstrated... rather then illusionary, and illogical, threats.
As to teaching about eternal punishment that is no more coercive in my worldview than teaching my child he will starve to death if he refuses to eat.
Sure... threatening someone with eternal torture for minor moral mistakes is very reasonable.
The scientific method demonstrates it accumulates knowledge by its ability to predict future, verifiable events with far more accuracy than any other method.
ReplyDeleteUndoubtedly true. And if it were more important to focus on the props and set design of the play we're in rather than the characters, plot and dialog, then Science! would reign supreme. But it isn't, so it doesn't.
Sure... threatening someone with eternal torture for minor moral mistakes is very reasonable.
ReplyDeleteActually leaving someone who is filled with loathing and disgust at the very idea of God to his own devices seems like a reasonable move on God's part. What is He supposed to do, drag them kicking and screaming into a Heaven which they would perceive to be even worse than Hell?
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteObviously, it must be because morality follows nature - you see djindra is actually a crypto-thomist.
Or Thomists are crypto-naturalists.
We do often have a failure to communicate. I've never suggested morality is separate from nature. I firmly believe morality is based on our nature. That doesn't make me a Thomist because I stop in nature. The Thomist passes by nature on his way to God.
Undoubtedly true. And if it were more important to focus on the props and set design of the play we're in rather than the characters, plot and dialog, then Science! would reign supreme. But it isn't, so it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteScience governs the whole bit... props and the actors.
@Tops
ReplyDelete>The question is "is there anything more?" To which I'm rather comfortable saying "I see no evidence for such."
Accept you are really saying "I see no evidence of an Andromeda Galaxy looking under my microsope". That is why your rationalizations for your rather thin intellectually stilled form of village Atheism doesn't move me. I need something a tad more sophisticated and intellectual.
Your positivism and scientism are not good enough. You need to learn philosophy.
>Sure, but all those consequences can be readily demonstrated... Unless you can pull a Dante then no such demonstration can be made for hell (plus the very concept of hell is irrational).
So make up your mind. What is your argument? Threats of Coercive punishments to teach morality are ok if they are real threats? Ok I agree but it begs the question since you still haven't made the case for Atheism in my view or the case against God etc.
>Sure... threatening someone with eternal torture for minor moral mistakes is very reasonable.
I agree which is why I thank God for Purgatory!
Of course I think it fair to say Tops since you have no concept of Christianity outside of some superfical ahistorical modern fundamentalism you likely don't understand the difference between venial & mortal sin.
Really dude! Quintin Smith, rational Atheist philosopher. Feser respects him. Light years a head of Dawk and PZ in correctly critiquing Theism.
Read him. It will do you wonders.
Actually leaving someone who is filled with loathing and disgust at the very idea of God to his own devices seems like a reasonable move on God's part.
ReplyDeleteExcept that that doesn't cover every Atheist (or even most Atheists)... let alone everyone who doesn't share your choice of hell-worthy offenses.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteIt appears parody is lost on you, so here's me speaking straightforwardly: I was being facetious. I don't really believe that you are Richard Dawkins. I was merely mocking the idea that "Anonymous" was BenYachov, given BenYachov's track record.
Regarding this bit:
...one would think that the myriad of such facts ought to lead people – rational ones anyway – to the conclusion – tentative or probable as the case may be – that maybe there’s something wrong with some of the basic premises underlying such “sensibilities”. [see TLS; pg 139]
First, drop the slippery, sleazy, and uninformative utilization of "maybe." "Maybe atheism is false," "maybe my mother is a prostitute," "maybe you are haunted by the ghost of Michael Jackson," "maybe Dr. Feser kisses a nude, photo-shopped picture of Richard Dawkins every night before he goes to sleep," etc., are all true propositions. But they tell us next to nothing about reality and are practically worthless.
Second, there is no logical connection whatsoever between, "There exist or have existed some immensely bad-behaved people who claim or have claimed to adhere to ideology X," and, "X is false, or probably false."
Third, even if there was, irreligion would have a far worse image-problem than religion would, seeing as how organized irreligion has proven itself to be the most despotic, murderous, and capricious historical force ever recorded. State-sponsored irreligion, particularly Marxism (which is an inherently and foundationally atheistic ideology), claimed the lives of around 150,000,000 persons in the 20th century, by far the bloodiest century on record. By contrast, the worst abuse of ecclesial authority in Christian history – the Spanish Crown Inquisitions – claimed the lives of 30,000 people over a period of 3 centuries, and even then only after a legal process that produced far more acquittals than convictions. The Soviet Union or the People’s Republic of China often killed that many people in 3 days, without any trial at all.
To be frank, modern atheists would be well-advised to steer clear of making claim to the effect of: "Atheism is morally superior to religious theism and is, on the whole, socially beneficial when accepted by large portions of, or by powerful members of, society." That's not an argument they have any reasonable hope of winning, either theoretically or historically.
God sends people to hell for minor moral mistakes?
ReplyDeleteWow one wonders at what kind of house of horrors legalistic view of Christianity you where force fed as a child?
Yikes!
Matteo,
ReplyDelete"And if it were more important to focus on the props and set design of the play we're in rather than the characters, plot and dialog, then Science! would reign supreme. But it isn't, so it doesn't."
I can't think of any method outside science which is very good at understanding characters, plot and dialog. And those other methods are not likely to improve whereas science improves every day.
Stone tops
ReplyDelete>Except that that doesn't cover every Atheist (or even most Atheists)... let alone everyone who doesn't share your choice of hell-worthy offenses.
You don't realize Catholics are not retrictivists? We don't believe every non-believer is automatically sent to hell?
Non-believers by negation who follow the light God gives them can be saved.(Pius IX, Alexander VIII, St Justin Martyr etc).
Non-believer by opposition OTOH will burn.
Look it up. I got downloadable content to play.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 20, 2011 5:57 PM
It's a pretty easy point to follow, James. Think for a moment about "not ridiculing someone for teaching their child what they think to be the truth" compared to the condemnations of religious people bringing up their children in a faith they believe in.
You still seem to have some difficulty with the idea that just because you happen to believe something is true that does not at all make it so. Otherwise the world would be flat and at the center of the universe. There have been far too many facts of that nature over the history of the species not to conclude, tentatively at least, that belief in something is anything but a guarantee that that something is the actual state of affairs. For example, there is the well-known visual illusion of the spinning dancer in which it is relatively easy to change one’s perceptions of its rotation: it is not spinning in any particular direction, it’s just that our perceptions can easily be fooled into concluding either state is the case.
And you might want to review Feser’s observations on that general point:
Now modern philosophers, over-impressed as always by David Hume, have thought that there is a frightfully difficult problem of “deriving an ‘ought’ from an ‘is’ or upholding morality in light of the “fact/value distinction”. There are facts, and then there are values, you see, and knowing any number of things about the first – about what is the case – can (so it is said) never tell you anything about the second – what ought to be the case. To confuse the two is to commit the “naturalistic fallacy”. And so forth. [TLS; pg 139]
And considering Stove’s support for induction you might also consider the wisdom, or at least the justification, for making that leap. But, in any case, one might suggest that you “ought” to conclude or grasp the “value”, or at least consider, based on those “facts” about the nature of belief as a phenomenon in its own right, that maybe there is something at least a little problematic in believing stuff without the least amount of tangible evidence to justify said conclusions.
And absent something in the way of proof or tangible evidence or even plausibility all that your literal religious beliefs amount to are opinions – and ascribing anything that might follow from that opinion to the putative existence of any entities, abstractions or concepts is likewise only an opinion – regardless of how much you might like to intimidate others – particularly defenseless children – into accepting those opinions as the “gospel truth”.
And relative to those children, you might want to at least read the paper by Nicholas Humphrey which has these salient points:
Children, I'll argue, have a human right not to have their minds crippled by exposure to other people's bad ideas – no matter who these other people are. Parents, correspondingly, have no god-given licence to enculturate their children in whatever ways they personally choose; no right to limit the horizons of their children's knowledge, to bring them up in an atmosphere of dogma and superstition, or to insist they follow the straight and narrow paths of their own faith.
And, relative to the human rights of children, you may know that UN promulgated the Convention on the Rights of the Child in about 1997 – which every country in the world has ratified with the exceptions of the U.S. and Somalia (something which President Obama has called “embarrassing”) – which stipulates that children also shall have the right to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion”. It is one thing to pass along to children workable moral precepts and an awareness of consequences. But intimidation and indoctrination – which far too many religious parents seem to think is a perk of the job – is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Ephram,
ReplyDelete"...seeing as how organized irreligion has proven itself to be the most despotic, murderous, and capricious historical force ever recorded."
Only if one selectively blames "organized irreligion" when convenient.
You still seem to have some difficulty with the idea that just because you happen to believe something is true that does not at all make it so...For example, there is the well-known visual illusion of the spinning dancer in which it is relatively easy to change one’s perceptions of its rotation: it is not spinning in any particular direction, it’s just that our perceptions can easily be fooled into concluding either state is the case.
ReplyDeleteTwo points: the sword cuts both ways. One could just as well say that your unbelief in something does not make it false. I've often wondered why people use the gambit "People mess up in their thinking all the time, so accept that you're wrong about certainty and I'm right about uncertainty." The meta-statement about people possibly being wrong no matter how right they think they are doesn't really add anything to the discussion, since it applies equally well to both sides. The statement "we cannot be sure" contains too much certainty not to be self-refuting. Perhaps there are some philosophical things we can, in fact, be sure of if we have eyes to see.
As far as the illusion of the spinning dancer, it doesn't seem like you've had too much trouble knowing that it is an illusion, so it does not serve well as an analogy pointing to our philosophical knowledge being necessarily illusory. In fact, it makes the opposite point: despite having to contend with deceptive appearances, we can know the truth of the matter. To be able to identify illusions is, after all, to know reality and make a comparison with appearances.
In short, insisting that things cannot be known is no less dogmatic than insisting that they can.
Ephram said:
ReplyDeleteIt appears parody is lost on you, so here's me speaking straightforwardly: I was being facetious.
A question of context I think – depends on having been here longer than I have. Though, in any case, parody does seem to depend on some number of analogous features – which really did not seem to apply.
First, drop the slippery, sleazy, and uninformative utilization of "maybe." "Maybe atheism is false," "maybe my mother is a prostitute," "maybe you are haunted by the ghost of Michael Jackson,"
Would you prefer “there is something wrong with all of the basic premises underlying such [religious] “sensibilities”? You might as it would make for a bigger target. But I don’t think that is categorically true and I won’t say that it is so. It was intended to present a premise, a hypothesis, without prejudging the conclusion and leaving it open for discussion, to address the individual examples presented.
You are quite correct about the depredations of those who were technically atheists – although I might suggest that the differences in death tolls were more a function of technology and demographics – larger target populations – than underlying principles. I’ve argued that in both cases the nature of the beast – so to speak – is authoritarianism with its opposition to individualism and democracy – some salient attributes of the Catholic Church.
To be frank, modern atheists would be well-advised to steer clear of making claim to the effect of: "Atheism is morally superior to religious theism and is, on the whole, socially beneficial when accepted by large portions of, or by powerful members of, society." That's not an argument they have any reasonable hope of winning, either theoretically or historically.
I would tend to agree with that as I think atheism has a few, even many, warts if not outright flaws – a state it shares, I think, with theism in general, although more particularly, in my view, of the literalist stripe. But unless we are able to jointly recognize and address those flaws in each area – regardless of vested interests of one sort or another – I can’t see that there’s much scope or possibility for correcting them.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteNot to be pushy, but I noticed you moved on without ever responding to my earlier post. If you are not going to respond that is well and good, but if you are going to respond I shouldn't like to miss it. Should I keep checking back?
Alyosha said:
ReplyDeleteSteersman, Not to be pushy, but I noticed you moved on without ever responding to my earlier post.
No problemo. I had wanted to respond to your post and have made some notes but haven’t had the chance to pull them together into a coherent response yet. But not sure when that will be though – sorry; others are falling or have fallen off the queue as well.
Just out of curiosity though, are you subscribing to the RSS Feeds? That at least allows to check for source of posts in the thread and if there’s a “To” in the first line that helps as well.
And, in passing, it might be nice [hint, hint] if the site had some provisions for numbering the posts which would make things easier to track. And likewise with a better system for incorporating link-backs which is rather tedious at the moment.
Steersman,
ReplyDelete"I’ve argued that in both cases the nature of the beast – so to speak – is authoritarianism with its opposition to individualism and democracy – some salient attributes of the Catholic Church."
Exactly right.
djindra,
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Interesting problem though – the balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group. Not always easy to determine the fine line between them. A concept that goes quite a ways back into the history of philosophy if I’m not mistaken ….
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteYou still seem to have some difficulty with the idea that just because you happen to believe something is true that does not at all make it so.
Like believing that giving a child a religious upbringing where they are taught about hell is equivalent to or worse than sexual abuse in terms of damage?
I agree with you, Steersman. If a person is making an empirical and scientific claim - especially if they present themselves as a kind of a guardian of science and reason itself - then clearly they should be basing their claims, particularly broad indictments of millions or billions of people, on that evidence.
Where. Is. The. Scientific. Empirical. Data. Backing. Up. Dawkins'. Claims?
You have not produced it, because it does not exist. You know it, I know it. Man up and admit it, rather than going down the tried and trued internet path of 'Well maybe if I keep talking and ignoring the point everyone will forget this mistake I made.'
Or don't. But you're not fooling anyone at all. You're sunk.
And absent something in the way of proof or tangible evidence or even plausibility all that your literal religious beliefs amount to are opinions
I have plenty of evidence and plausibility. Absolute proof? No, but absolute proof isn't available even in science typically. Evidence and plausibility you personally accept? I could care less what your opinion is - you clearly have reasoning problems.
Where is the proof that atheism is true? Oh, there may be some evidence, if you take a certain perspective. But where's the proof? Dawkins rates the odds of God not existing at around 6.9 out of 7, 7 being "Absolutely does not exist". Where is his evidence to back up that claim?
Oh wait, I get it. Having a strong view on the existence of God or the truth of a religion is baaaaaaad - if your view is that it's likely true, or that it's very reasonable to believe. But if you believe it's false, suddenly the standards disappear. Do all the metaphysics you like - so long as you come to a conclusion Steersman likes, or Dawkins likes!
Hypocrisy.
And relative to those children, you might want to at least read the paper by Nicholas Humphrey which has these salient points:
I don't give two craps what Nicholas Humphrey's personal opinions on anyone's rights are, much less his views on what does and does not constitute appropriate parenting. I don't care what idiotic bit of legislation the UN passed and which everyone - even those who signed onto it - will ignore at their leisure. Just as, apparently, a certain atheist parent referenced in this thread did.
Humphrey believes passionately that giving a children a religious upbringing violates their rights? File him with Peter Singer believing that infants have no right to life. The opinion of someone grounded in nothing, and which I don't care to entertain.
One more time.
Where. Is. The. Empirical. Scientific. Data. Supporting. Dawkins'. Claims.
And one more time, the answer: It doesn't exist. Dawkins doesn't have it, never did, and probably never will. Because teaching a child about God and religion and hell does not do anywhere near the damage, much less more damage, than sexual abuse. And as long as you pretend otherwise, you're consciously trivializing the child victims of sexual abuse.
All to support your country, your people, your philosophy, right or wrong.
Good job, Steersman. Freethought at its finest.
Steersman,
ReplyDelete"Interesting problem though – the balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group. Not always easy to determine the fine line between them."
IMO, it's the most important distinction between people, far more important than conservative/liberal or religious/atheist.
And so long as we're on the subject...
ReplyDeleteInteresting problem though – the balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group. Not always easy to determine the fine line between them.
I'd also like to know what scientific, empirical data there for these "rights" things I'm hearing so much about. What laboratory were they discovered in? What physical theory predicts them?
I have the funny feeling that there's little in the way of empirical, scientific data demonstrating the existence of these "rights" everyone is talking about. Which, for the person ditching or at least casting heavy aspersions on philosophy and metaphysics, makes these into little more than opinions.
And we can't be going around living as if our opinions were gospel truth, or raising our children to believe such things, now can we?
Matteo said:
ReplyDeleteTwo points: the sword cuts both ways. One could just as well say that your unbelief in something does not make it false.
I think you’re misreading what I have said. I am most emphatically not saying that your belief is wrong. All I’m doing is pointing out the bare, naked, brute fact that historically people have believed a great amount of stuff to be true which later turned out to be anything but the case. Or do you dispute that fact? And I’m asking, rhetorically to some extent, “What evidence do you have that your beliefs are not of the same type?” You really might want to take a close look at Feser’s argument again [pg 139], but the short summary is “If it walks like a duck … then there is some probability that it is, in fact, a duck.”
And absent that evidence I think reason itself justifies the conclusion that what you are presenting is only an opinion – “A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof” – and not a fact (“Knowledge or information based on real occurrences”). If you have a problem with that conclusion then I suggest taking it up with the American Heritage Dictionary along with the other half-dozen who present the same definitions.
As far as the illusion of the spinning dancer, it doesn't seem like you've had too much trouble knowing that it is an illusion, so it does not serve well as an analogy pointing to our philosophical knowledge being necessarily illusory.
But that wasn’t the point. I was, again, most emphatically not saying that “philosophical knowledge [was] necessarily illusory”. All I was doing was pointing out was that some perceptual knowledge was, in point of brute fact, illusory. And suggesting, as an inductive leap, the possibility that other such perceptual knowledge might also be illusory – though not necessarily that there is no underlying reality. But forewarned is forearmed – knowing that that might be the case in any given situation allows us the opportunity to delve into things a little deeper and maybe find out something really profound or at least important and valuable.
But relative to that “inductive leap” you might be interested in looking into the works of David Stove – a philosopher on a list on Feser’s masthead. I don’t agree with it entirely and haven’t had the time to dig into it much yet but I think there are some useful ideas there – even if he is a Catholic [joke!] But it is interesting – and somewhat amusing in a way – that Hume – whom Stove disagreed with on induction – argued – according to Feser – that knowing a set of facts “can never tell you anything about [the inductively reached conclusion]”, while Feser – to some extent based on Stove, apparently – seems to think that any and every such conclusion is valid. Personally, I think it is more a case of “sometimes” and that depending on the nature of the facts and the nature of the conclusion. For example, I think though this might not be current mathematical “conventional wisdom”, mathematical induction is a case in point where the conclusions are entirely valid because the data are constrained to be of a certain type. Not at all the case in other applications of the technique.
In short, insisting that things cannot be known is no less dogmatic than insisting that they can.
Maybe. Probably even. But I am not insisting that “things” cannot be known – just pointing out what is and is not, in fact, known. It seems that the philosophy of science itself – at least the less dogmatic versions or uses of it – acknowledge that fact – quite forthrightly as a matter of fact in many cases and I’d be happy to quote you chapter and verse on the point. All I’m saying is what can and cannot be known is very much of an open question – a known unknown, one might say. But bad karma I think to be losing sight of the distinction between the two facets.
Well, it's really simple. Those monkeys that believed in wholly fictitious "rights" went on to reproduce, while those that didn't did not.
ReplyDeleteTherefore rights actually sort of exist, and it's all explained by science.
But, you have the right to disagree. For now. I think.
I have not read all of these comments, but it seems that someone is making the argument that teaching children about hell is abusive. That's a strong word. I certainly think it's wrong, usually, to lie to children about reality.
ReplyDeleteBut the main point about the doctrine of hell is what it says about this god you guys worship, and about yourselves.
A god who would create a hell, or allow any person to go there for a mere error, would be wicked by definition, and anyone who admired such a god is just as wicked, and therefore you Christians who admire this character are horrifying. You have taken evil and called it good, under a banner of self-righteousness. And you justify the most horrible ideas and wishes--and then have the gall to pretend you believe in love.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteGood points all. I do think, however, that Feser is absolutely correct in pointing out that a great many have rejected Aquinas as being "800 years stupider than us" without in the slightest actually understanding him. And I do find that the ideas of A-T metaphysics are at least as worth fighting for as anything "modern" and "scientific". Thanks, though for your thoughtful, measured responses. It's a refreshing change from the usual know-nothing vitriol that is regularly copiously spewed in these online discussions.
A god who would create a hell, or allow any person to go there for a mere error, would be wicked by definition, and anyone who admired such a god is just as wicked, and therefore you Christians who admire this character are horrifying. You have taken evil and called it good, under a banner of self-righteousness. And you justify the most horrible ideas and wishes--and then have the gall to pretend you believe in love.
ReplyDeleteI'd only point out that you absolutely do not believe in this God yourself, otherwise you'd be cowering in abject fear. Given that you are not, I think we can safely conclude that such an ogre God does not exist. So why not pursue the Source of Love, Justice, Fairness, Peace, Goodness, Truth, and Beauty instead of just running away? Why not show the supposed "hateful Christians" that you can do better finding the true God than they can?
But the main point about the doctrine of hell is what it says about this god you guys worship, and about yourselves.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, no, it's not. The main point is about a claim being made that teaching children about hell is not only abusive, but as abusive or more abusive than sexual abuse. A claim being made by a supposed booster/lover of science and empirical data, yet who has no scientific research backing him up on this point. It's a claim made out of a couple personal anecdotes and his own ass.
And you know what? Having an opinion, even an opinion based on little data, is fine... but it starts to become problematic when you start suggesting it is not only truth, but actionable truth. As in truth that we maybe should be passing laws due to, or pressuring large groups of people over.
It's also a great way to illustrate a flaw in the claim that Dawkins has such tremendously high regard for science and doesn't like to dabble in philosophy and metaphysics, or doesn't like to advocate things or base his beliefs on things other than science and empirical data.
One final thought for tonight: Why does the thought that some people are in Hell (if it be so) cause so many to be shocked and outraged at what God is capable of, rather than shocked and outraged at what people are capable of?
ReplyDelete//"Why does the thought that some people are in Hell (if it be so) cause so many to be shocked and outraged at what God is capable of, rather than shocked and outraged at what people are capable of?"
ReplyDeleteBecause atheists demand that God not give people what they want. God should bring those people to Him, regardless of whether they want to be is His presence. Drag them kicking and screaming if need be! (Here we see yet another trace of the inherently authoritarian, freedom-hating nature of atheism)
The governing idea of the afterlife has always been simple: Everyone gets what they want in the end.
Matteo,
ReplyDeleteThanks. And also for the discussion – most illuminating. And likewise for that recommendation – Meditations on the Tarot; I’ll keep an eye out for it at least.
A-T metaphysics though is, I think, still an open question – for me at least. Some parts of Aristotle I think are still relevant but that his physics does not appear to correspond to current physics suggests some problems for Thomists – they may have built on some shaky foundations. Interesting though ….
Anonymous, 9/20, 1:18 am (it would be helpful if you would use a handle even if it is not your real name; also please start your replies to me with "Jason" so I can find them without having to read through every comment),
ReplyDeleteand Jack Bodie (although I'll mainly reply to anonymous, you raise the same objection),
"It's a damn shame that Dawkins and company don't have the relevant background to evaluate the claims being made then, eh? Biology is not 'the study of God or arguments for God's existence' or even, frankly, 'the study of teleology'. So it's a little like saying that the majority of owners of Dunkin Donuts franchises do not think the arguments for Darwinism are credible."
The main issue here is that you're failing to take my claim in context. I'm not saying, "Since all biologists share Dawkins' beliefs about God, Dawkins must be right." You seemed to think that the same argument I made against Feser - that I can safely ignore his writings because he has failed to convince his expert colleagues - applied to Dawkins. I explained why this was not the case, and you misconstrued me as saying that somehow only biologists are qualified to assess Dawkins' arguments. Were it the case that the vast majority of people with similar expertise to Dawkins (e.g. leading biologists) disagreed with the conclusions Dawkins' conclusions, that would be cause for concern that his expertise was simply not relevant to what he was writing about. This is all that is necessary for my argument to go through.
Now, why should we care what a biologist has to say at all about this issue? Or directly (to avoid selection issues), suppose we could estimate the causal effect of knowledge of biology on belief about God. Why should we care what effect we find? My guess is that this causal effect is large and negative for two reasons: first because biologists nearly universally reject the argument from design on the basis of their expert knowledge. And second, because biologists are more aware than most of the fallibility of perception and ease with which people can be lead to believe in illusions on the basis of their intuition. So I think this causal effect would be interesting, but not necessarily more relevant than estimates of the causal effect of learning about philosophy on beliefs about God. If it turned out that this effect were large and positive (i.e. that the more you learned about philosophy the more likely you were to believe in God), I would in fact revise my confidence in my own beliefs. The observational evidence suggests that the reverse is true - philosophers are far less likely than the general public - or even those of comparable socioeconomic backgrounds - to believe in God. But it's possible that's due to selection, so I'd be curious to see a more careful study (e.g. one that compared beliefs among those who were just above the cut-off for being admitted to graduate school in philosophy to those who applied but were just below the cut-off).
(continued)
(continued)
ReplyDelete"Of course. And... what's the evidence that even after all this, such surveys and measures are reliable ways of determining whether or not a philosophical argument is correct and/or true? What scientific reason is there for me to give up a belief in an argument I think is good and compelling in the situation where - apparently - I wait over time for everyone to get the relevant knowledge of the argument, exposure to it, account for biases, etc?"
There is ample evidence from the history of science that the vast majority of those who propose theories which are considered and rejected by their expert colleagues turn out to in fact be wrong (for every Einstein, there are ten thousand papers on the physics Arxiv published by experts with only a small number of citations which are subsequently proven wrong or irrelevant by further developments). Does that mean that if you are a fellow expert, you believe yourself to be right but you are rejected by your colleagues that you should give up? Of course not. I did not say, "Feser is obviously wasting his life and should find a different profession." I said Feser and those with similar views are almost very likely to be wrong because they fail to convince their expert colleagues, and so they should not act as though other scholars who ignore them are ignorant of anything because they have not demonstrated that they know anything worth knowing. Just because a view was popular hundreds of years ago before the scientific revolution doesn't mean it is worth considering today, especially when we know it is rejected by the most of his philosophically expert colleagues. If Ed manages to convince them, then great. But in the mean time, don't pretend that those of us who ignore his writings are missing anything important.
This applies both to very general questions, but even more strongly to specific arguments about specific issues in metaphysics. My claim above was that the fact that no one is convinced by the vast majority of metaphysical arguments demonstrates their emptiness. It's easy to prove me wrong - give me an example of one thing that metaphysicians like Ed or Bill Vallicella can demonstrate about the world using metaphysical arguments that is not completely trivial (i.e. not something along the lines of showing that absolutist statements which start "Every X ..." are often self-defeating).
("almost very likely" should be "very likely" or "almost certain" - I wasn't trying to hedge my bets!)
ReplyDeleteSteerman,
ReplyDeleteSome parts of Aristotle I think are still relevant but that his physics does not appear to correspond to current physics
Are you thinking about quantum physics? I know Feser has addressed this before in one of the comboxes (I know he devotes about a paragraph to it in Aquinas). In any case, here's a book written by a nuclear physicist who is also philosophically informed (a very rare combination, needless to say). It's an attempt to synthesize Aristotelian metaphysics with quantum physics.
http://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Nature-Quantum-Reality-Thompson/dp/1449966489/
I'm in the process of reading it, and so far it's pretty good.
Oh wait...you're concerned about Aristotle's physics, not his metaphysics. Never mind then.
ReplyDelete(I'll just say that the soundness of Aristotle's metaphysical system is irrelevant to whatever views on physics he happened to espouse)
Here is a take on the "Quantum physics vs Principle of causality" debate.
ReplyDeletehttp://telicthoughts.com/quantum-physics-vs-the-principle-of-causality/
Quantum physics appear perfectly compatible the principle of causality and the principle of sufficient reason.
Anonymous 9/20, 4:00 pm,
ReplyDelete"Actually I was going to ask why you would call it "engaging" at all if he doesn't even deal with what Aquinas actually said. And if he was addressing a "version" of these arguments, why did he incorrectly ascribe them to Aquinas? And if the point was only to let us know that poorly constructed caricatures were unpersuasive to him, shouldn't that go without saying? (Then again, this is Dawkins, so….)"
I'm glad that you agree with Dawkins that they are poor arguments without the support of the Aristotelian metaphysics which Feser claims props them up.
Suppose Dawkins had included a sentence along the lines of: "Aquinas spends hundreds of pages attempting to defend these arguments by appeal to an elaborate philosophical system which seems like gibberish to the modern scientific reader and was ultimately rejected by most scientists and philosophers following the scientific revolution." Then I agree that his treatment would have been more precise and accurate. It's possible that he does say something along those lines at some point in the book - I don't know. If he doesn't, I don't see the omission as a great intellectual sin.
Suppose he had further said, "A small number of modern philosophers write hundreds more pages attempting to prop up Aquinas arguments by insisting that they were wrongly rejected, and that in fact they provide the only appropriate philosophical foundation for modern science; the arguments of these philosophers are rejected by most of their philosophical colleagues and by nearly all scientists." This would not have weakened his point - it would have seemed like an irrelevant aside.
djindra,
ReplyDelete"The scientific method demonstrates it accumulates knowledge by its ability to predict future, verifiable events with far more accuracy than any other method."
That must be correct - but does it support your view? It would support such views as 'Science is mankind's greatest achievement', or 'Science is far more practically important than philosophy', or 'We should be putting more public funding into science'. I'm interested that you made a much stronger claim - namely, that science can answer *all* questions worth asking. Why not just make one of the weaker claims, and leave it at that?
It's been a pleasure reading your blog. I have bookmarked your website so that I can come back & read more in the future as well. Please do keep up the quality writing.
ReplyDeleteJason,
ReplyDeleteWhy should we care what effect we find? My guess is that this causal effect is large and negative for two reasons: first because biologists nearly universally reject the argument from design on the basis of their expert knowledge.
Except there are a few problems here.
First, the 'argument from design' is not something Feser offers, insofar as that applies to the Paleyan claim that you can infer that organisms were designed based on their complexity. The argument Feser does defend relating to teleology - the fifth way - is not a specifically biological argument, though it can apply to biology. And most commentators, including Dawkins, seem utterly unaware of what that argument is.
Second, and more importantly: Biologists are not "design experts", and identifying "design" has nothing to do with their expertise. So their "expert knowledge" is inapplicable in this situation.
Dunkin Donuts managers can have some expert knowledge too. The question is whether their knowledge is relevant to the topic - and in the case of teleology and design, it's not the case.
There is ample evidence from the history of science that the vast majority of those who propose theories which are considered and rejected by their expert colleagues turn out to in fact be wrong (for every Einstein, there are ten thousand papers on the physics Arxiv published by experts with only a small number of citations which are subsequently proven wrong or irrelevant by further developments).
More problems.
First, it's simply untrue. From plate tectonics to quantum physics to germ theory to otherwise, the pattern of history is closer to the following: A new idea is proposed that better explains the data, and there is - for quite a long time - marked resistance to the idea. Eventually, over time - and after many of the original opponents die out - acceptance takes place.
Second, the data you offer is simply not available. Even Jerry Coyne admits freely that replication of claims in his field happens only rarely. What you are offering up is little more than you "calling it like you see it" based on apparently limited knowledge of the history of science and how science is practiced in the modern day. You're welcome to that. But your gut feeling is no fact.
Finally, you want to ignore an argument or some writings? Go right ahead. But in that case the only argument you can offer up is an ignorant one, one based on a hipshot estimation of the argument.
My claim above was that the fact that no one is convinced by the vast majority of metaphysical arguments demonstrates their emptiness.
Demonstrates? It does no such thing. You think it indicates - not proves, not demonstrates - their emptiness, on the grounds that you're convinced that the best arguments would quickly be adopted by all people in the relevant field. You base this on a pretty flawed understanding of historical science, rather than empirical, scientific data (unless "I read arxiv now and then" is "empirical" here), and a poor understanding of human nature. (Clearly no political views have greater merit than the other, because of all the controversy among politicians, political scientists, and more.)
Of course, the very people who you'd best treat as "experts" on this topic - the philosophers themselves - are either divided on the question, or oppose your conclusion. Which, I suppose, "demonstrates" that it's likely to be wrong, and thus it can be discarded.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteSuppose he had further said, "A small number of modern philosophers write hundreds more pages attempting to prop up Aquinas arguments by insisting that they were wrongly rejected, and that in fact they provide the only appropriate philosophical foundation for modern science; the arguments of these philosophers are rejected by most of their philosophical colleagues and by nearly all scientists." This would not have weakened his point - it would have seemed like an irrelevant aside.
Yet more problems.
First, "nearly all scientists" are *unaware* of these arguments. It's not their field nor within their expertise. So "nearly all scientists" rejecting these ideas, is flat out wrong as a claim.
Second, it's not clear - on the same lines - that "most of their philosophical colleagues" reject the arguments for the same reason. Most philosophers are specialized, and deal in different fields which engage different arguments than the ones Feser and many others offer. Indeed, one theme Feser argued in his book is that quite a number of people are - like Dawkins, and even Dennett - entirely unaware of the actual arguments as opposed to cheap caricatures.
But finally, imagine that Dawkins really would have written something close to what you wrote. Say... "Now, a certain number of theologians and philosophers offer up arguments for the existence of God and the truth of their metaphysics. In fact they spend a lot of time refining their arguments, discussing them with others in and outside of their field, and maintaining that theirs is the correct view. I don't know what these arguments are, really. But they don't seem to have convinced most philosophers (Admittedly, the majority of philosophers of religion believe in God according to the polling data), and most scientists don't know about these arguments. So I think we can safely dismiss them altogether."
We'd not see Dawkins argue that. Do you know why? For one thing, because it would be tantamount to Dawkins admitting he didn't know diddly about what he was dismissing. But more than that... it would be because Dawkins advocates positions within his own field (Or what was his field when he was a scientist, decades ago) for which there is not consensus in his field. His opinions on the primacy of natural selection, his opinions on group selection and levels of selection, his opinions on the directionality of evolution and more would be immediately undercut. Dawkins has more opinions than merely "evolution is true" that he cares about deeply.
So yes, it really would have weakened Dawkins' point immensely. Or put another way, Dawkins' point would have been revealed as godawful weak from the outset. And that argument would cut him off at the knees in his own field. All in exchange for a dismissal which, at the end of the day, is so weak and unconvincing that he'd be better off dropping it altogether than relying on it.
Really, with friends like you, Dawkins doesn't need enemies.
@James:
ReplyDeleteBaffling. I could've sworn that my carefully-typed responses concerned Untenured's apparent belief that naturalists must -- on pain of exhibiting duplicity -- behave as emotionless robots.
No, I am not saying that naturalists must behave in an android like fashion. My point is that naturalists are being inconsistent when they try to make evaluative and moral assertions on the basis of sentiment and feeling. It is not consistent to say, in one breath, that religious beliefs are irrational and should be discarded because they lack any kind of scientific grounding. And then in the next breath, affirm the "value of life" or the rightness of the welfare state or some such by appealing to sentiment and emotion. By their own epistemic standards, they should admit that there are no values and no legitimate normative claims.
To maintain that all knowledge is confined to science and experience, and that materialism is true is to deny the possibility of any objective normative claims. To cling to these normative claims while dismissing religious and metaphysical claims is, to my mind, as foolish as declaring oneself a Platonist, but only about the even numbers.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteWhat Anonymous said.
But also I wanted to add a comment about what you write here:
”And second, because biologists are more aware than most of the fallibility of perception and ease with which people can be lead to believe in illusions on the basis of their intuition.”
If this is true, your biologist undermines not only rational belief in the existence of God, but also the trustworthiness of science.
Indeed why wouldn’t such a fallibility of perception undermine the currency of the scientific method, empirical observations, more than any conclusion of metaphysics? After all many physicalists/atheists in these comboxes dismiss metaphysical claims because they aren't observable, and because they're ‘just’ the output of formal reasoning?
@Jack Bodie:
ReplyDeleteIt isn't just folk "intuitions" that are fallible. Indeed, you can induce people to accept fallacies just by tarting them up with scientific terminology.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004578.html
To my mind, this phenomenon explains the appeal of Daniel Dennett's "arguments" in _Consciousness Explained_ and _Breaking The Spell_.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 20, 2011 9:27 PM
[Part 1 of 2]
Like believing that giving a child a religious upbringing where they are taught about hell is equivalent to or worse than sexual abuse in terms of damage?
You do seem to want to paint everything in absolutes, in blacks and whites. Which is a little disingenuous – at best. I’m not saying that all cases of religious upbringing are worse than all cases of sexual abuse. The woman I quoted the other day had been exposed to both at the hands of the Catholic educational system and was quite certain that the upbringing was far worse. And where there is one there is frequently a great many more of the same type.
Where. Is. The. Scientific. Empirical. Data. Backing. Up. Dawkins'. Claims?
For a guy who is supposedly so down on the scientific method or the philosophy of science you seem to be giving a pretty fair demonstration of a dogmatic adherence to it – or its caricature, scientism. As I’ve pointed out or argued such studies have generally not been done and probably couldn’t be done without raising questions of ethics – seems the best that is possible is to use the information that is available and weight it according to some “reasonable” assessments. Insisting on those studies looks like stonewalling and arguing in bad faith.
But, to answer your question directly, there was in fact an actual scientific study which Dawkins discusses at length, published in the American Heart Journal, done on at least one tenet of Christian faith, that being the efficacy of prayer. Most won’t be much surprised to learn that the results were no better than random:
CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.
In other news, grass is green, sky is blue.
Though, of course, you would have known that and much more if you’d actually tried to read Dawkins himself instead of closing an apparently already closed mind even tighter at even the thought of doing so. You know, Jason has read or is reading Feser as has Coyne as I’m doing. And Feser has read Harris and Dennett – though I doubt he’s read The God Delusion – so why the heck don’t you – and Feser – actually try reading Dawkins with at least a half-way open mind?
I have plenty of evidence and plausibility. Absolute proof? No, but absolute proof isn't available even in science typically.
Great. So then we agree that you have some opinions on the existence of God – as do I. As does Dawkins and probably most everybody else. Now we can maybe get down to a rational assessment of probabilities for which types of conceptions.
Speaking of which:
Dawkins rates the odds of God not existing at around 6.9 out of 7, 7 being "Absolutely does not exist". Where is his evidence to back up that claim?
It’s all there, laid out in great detail in his book. Again, I suggest that you actually try reading it instead of assuming, based on some caricatures and misapprehensions, what he is saying. Though I note that both you and he are both equally certain, relatively speaking, of your positions and both acknowledge that the proofs are not absolute. Who knew there might be common ground?
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 20, 2011 9:27 PM
[Part 2 of 2]
Where is the proof that atheism is true? Oh, there may be some evidence, if you take a certain perspective.
I agree – and have stated many times, here and elsewhere – that I think atheism is highly questionable to the extent that it dogmatically asserts the non-existence of God. And entails a contradiction to the extent that it states that it believes in the non-existence of God. There is simply no way – at least according to a philosopher of science, Massimo Pigliucci – of proving that God did not create the world last Thursday down to the last detail pointing to a 14 billion year old universe. [Though I wonder whether or not there would be a loose thread in there – some smoke and mirrors – that would prove the case one way or the other.]
But the point in all of that is who has how many facts of what degree of credibility to put on each side of the scales. And Science – and whatever philosophy undergirds its methods – has delivered the goods – a great many of them as a matter of fact – while A-T metaphysics has delivered absolutely diddly-squat. Though that is not to say that there is no merit in a metaphorical interpretation of salient features of the Bible – as I have argued and as both Dawkins (as you would learn if you had or have the intellectual honesty to actually read him) and Coyne have taken pains to acknowledge. But that fact of the asymmetry in the number of facts does suggest to most that maybe, if not probably, his degree of certainty is more credible than is yours.
Do all the metaphysics you like - so long as you come to a conclusion Steersman likes, or Dawkins likes! Hypocrisy.
Not at all the case. Again, the point comes down to who has the best and greatest number of brute, naked facts. And, speaking of naked, I would say your A-T Emperor is looking just a tad threadbare. Even, or particularly, after looking through some of the dissertations offered by his Courtiers.
Because teaching a child about God and religion and hell does not do anywhere near the damage, much less more damage, than sexual abuse.
As mentioned, although I’ll phrase it a little differently this time, just because some sexual abuse is worse than some “religious abuse” [teaching children about God and Hell] does not – anyway, should not, at least in those with some claim to rationality – preclude assessing the conjecture that the abuse entailed in religious education is considerably worse than that in secular education. Consider, for example, that the statistics suggest that the incidence of sexual abuse by guardians and teachers in Catholicism is not greatly different from that in secular schools. But the number of children exposed to bad religious education, I would argue, is substantially greater than the number of children exposed to bad secular education. [See Dawkins for supporting details] For all of the faults that might be laid at the doorstep of the latter it should be manifestly obvious that it at least attempts to impart critical thinking skills as opposed to, in far too many cases, efforts to indoctrinate children into a particular way of thinking in the pursuit of crippling that same skill.
Good job, Steersman. Free thought at its finest.
Thanks. Glad you like it; glad you understand and appreciate rational arguments.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteTue 9/20/2011 9:46 PM
I'd also like to know what scientific, empirical data there for these "rights" things I'm hearing so much about. What laboratory were they discovered in? What physical theory predicts them?
For a guy who supposedly buys into the rights supposedly devolving from “natural law theory” you seem to have a rather selective adherence to the concept of empirical proof and predictions.
Maybe we can all agree – as we do apparently – that people have rights – and responsibilities, and get down to the business of seeing what follows logically from any particular assumption and deciding whether the assumptions are justifiable or not. And preferably without muddying the waters with assertions as to the supposed existence of putative entities for which there are, at least as of now, very few if any facts in support.
One thing of interest in Feser’s book which I note with some amusement is the fact that, in many ways, on questions of morality and rights and social goals both Harris and Feser and even Hume are in some agreement. And that it is, unfortunately, Feser’s dogmatic adherence to their supposed source which turns his positions into problematic absolutes. Although, to be fair, Harris may have absolutes of his own that may also be problematic, but I think they may be less so as I haven’t read enough of him to be certain.
Anonymous said:
Tue 9/20/2011 10:31 PM
The governing idea of the afterlife has always been simple: Everyone gets what they want in the end.
Did they give you a deed with that bridge? You and Feser might want to get on the same page in the hymn book on that point as he seems to have a somewhat different view:
Difficult moral obligations, which seem bearable in light of the prospect of an eternal reward, come to seem impossible to live up to when our horizons are this-worldly. [TLS, pg 153; my emphasis]
And presumably, and based on some evidence, an eternal punishment for those with the temerity to question, likely more so for those who reject outright, Church dogma. Seems like a case of the “moral”, the “good”, getting what they want in the way of seeing the immoral, the “evil”, fry forever for that rejection with the latter getting the short end of the stick. Nice. How to win friends and influence people, by Thomas Aquinas et al.
@BenYachov:
ReplyDeleteAnyway sorry for the mix up. So James what is your story? Theist? Deist? Hopeful Agnostic? Christian? Catholic Christian? Unitarian? What is the deal?
I suppose you could say that I am a practical deist, although I am not deistic by the true definition of the term. I believe in the God of philosophers; I remain unconvinced that any extant religion has the theological scoop on Him; I find dubious the notion that He interferes with the natural order in ways that have been observed and recorded.
That said, I am intrigued by Catholicism, enough that I attended RCIA classes almost to completion. I couldn't see myself going through with it.
To go further with that a bit: one of the reasons I hang out here, beyond having enjoyed Feser's books, is that I hope he'll go into a bit more detail at some point about why he feels that (broadly speaking) Christianity is true; most specifically Christian bits of apologia have left me cold.
ReplyDeleteFamous arguments such as Lewis's trilemma, for example, do not address all relevant possibilities (in that case IMO because of an un-nuanced conception of what it would mean for a religious leader to be a "lunatic"). But even further, the historical and archaeological evidence that it all went down according to the biblical record is just too tenuous for that kind of argument to get started. How can we argue about the trustworthiness of the women at the tomb, when scholars can't even be sure whether or not the very testimony itself is apocryphal?
But it must be noted that I speak only for myself here; I don't think that someone is foolish or ignorant who does believe that the truth Christianity has been sufficiently demonstrated.
And relative to those children, you might want to at least read the paper by Nicholas Humphrey which has these salient points:
ReplyDelete"Children, I'll argue, have a human right not to have their minds crippled by exposure to other people's bad ideas – no matter who these other people are. Parents, correspondingly, have no god-given licence to enculturate their children in whatever ways they personally choose; no right to limit the horizons of their children's knowledge, to bring them up in an atmosphere of dogma and superstition, or to insist they follow the straight and narrow paths of their own faith. "
Humphrey's a disaster, it's best to avoid his arguments because they're incoherent. All education involves the inculcation of values. He's angry that people are passing on values that he despises, but who is he to make the decision of what children may or may not be taught? He's angry at "superstition" and "dogma" but appealing to ethical norms that don't exist in a purely empirical world. He's the veritable six year old sneaking across the kitchen floor to raid the cookie jar thinking that the blanket over his head makes him invisible (that was a bloody brilliant analogy).
And, relative to the human rights of children, you may know that UN promulgated the Convention on the Rights of the Child in about 1997 – which every country in the world has ratified with the exceptions of the U.S. and Somalia (something which President Obama has called “embarrassing”) – which stipulates that children also shall have the right to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion”.
And there are very good reasons for rejecting the charter. The US is one of the very few countries that wouldn't be able to ignore the accord. So, for once, the US Senate did the reasonable thing and rejected the treaty. It doesn't happen that the senate often does something intelligent, so when it does it deserves recognition. Countries like Saudi Arabia, where even adults lack religious freedom, signed the treaty because there was never a downside for them, they have no intention of ever implementing it.
But, to answer your question directly, there was in fact an actual scientific study which Dawkins discusses at length, published in the American Heart Journal, done on at least one tenet of Christian faith, that being the efficacy of prayer.
Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the claim that you keep repeating and refuse to back up by your own standards. Excellent attempt at misdirection, though. And, as my word verification was anteribs I simply had to post.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteTue 9/20/2011 10:31 PM
Here we see yet another trace of the inherently authoritarian, freedom-hating nature of atheism.
What a joke. When was the last time you had a chance to vote on Catholic dogma or elections of various Popes and his poppets? Were you a party to the last “Infallible” communication with the Holy Spirit? How many women are there in the upper levels of the hierarchy? How much freedom is there to disagree with “infallible teaching”?
Anonymous said:
Tue 9/20/2011 11:21 PM
“Some parts of Aristotle I think are still relevant but that his physics does not appear to correspond to current physics”. Are you thinking about quantum physics?
Yes, I was. Thanks for the book recommendation – looks interesting. I see that all or most of the book is (or was) available on the Net here.
I haven’t read much of it yet and there may be some sense and value in it, particularly as it seems that there are already some dozen different interpretations of QM, notably that of David Bohm (very credible scientist, added much to QM, responsible for the “holonomic model” of brain functioning) which I’ve also wanted to look into.
Seems a fairly large number of scientists – Bohm, Wigner, Penrose, Hameroff for examples – see QM and consciousness as being intricately and dependently related. Whether Thompson and his apparently Aristotelian perspective on QM have anything to add to the mix is debatable but not certain, I would say, one way or the other at the moment. Though the question is, largely, quite a bit outside of my salary range – in the words of Leon Lederman from his The God Particle.
Anonymous said:
Tue 9/20/2011 11:24 PM
Oh wait...you're concerned about Aristotle's physics, not his metaphysics. Never mind then.
(I'll just say that the soundness of Aristotle's metaphysical system is irrelevant to whatever views on physics he happened to espouse)
As Feser uses all sorts of examples based on Aristotle’s physics to justify both his metaphysics and Thomist additions to it and, as Feser himself acknowledges, apparently, that that physics was “lacking” that would seem to raise some questions about the validity of those superstructures, that metaphysics – creaky foundations tend to preclude very solid or tall buildings.
Though Aristotle may have still have had some perceptions – notably final causes which may be relevant to QM – that still retain some value even though the other parts of the foundations are still highly questionable.
@James
ReplyDeleteThank you for the Info. An Aristotelian Deism is a good place to start. Might I suggest the next step is looking into the errors of Hume on miracles. Look into theories of history. Or you might chat up the guys over at Catholic Answers or PHILIP J. PORVAZNIK at http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/.
God be with you on your journey.
BTW James is my name too. BenYachov is short for Yachov Ben Yachov, James Son of James.
God bless.
>What a joke. When was the last time you had a chance to vote on Catholic dogma or elections of various Popes and his poppets?
ReplyDeleteNobody consulted me as to wither or not it would be a good idea for there to be Gravity or for my physical form to evolve the way it did. I did not give my consent that the speed of Light is to be 299,792,458 meters per second.
Come one steersman this is Gnupidity! You are better than that.
E.H. Munro said:
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 1:21 PM
All education involves the inculcation of values. He's angry that people are passing on values that he despises, but who is he to make the decision of what children may or may not be taught? He's angry at "superstition" and "dogma" but appealing to ethical norms that don't exist in a purely empirical world.
Apart from the minor detail pertaining to the question of where else you yourself derive ethical norms from other than an “empirical world” – the existence of anything else being a matter of opinion as “Anonymous” concedes – I think you’re seriously missing the point and intent of that UN Charter, particularly its support for a child’s right to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion”. It is not that Humphrey himself is insisting on some particular set of values to be inculcated. It is that, as per the Charter itself, it is the child itself which is to have that right, a right that is not to be abrogated by anybody – not even parents. Guidance is one thing – indoctrination, quite another.
And before you go on about a child not having the ability or knowledge to decide which values were reasonable you should actually take a look at the text of the document itself, notably:
Article 14:
1. States Parties shall respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
2. States Parties shall respect the rights and duties of the parents and, when applicable, legal guardians, to provide direction to the child in the exercise of his or her right in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child.
3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.
Seems to me that adequate provisions are made to ensure that the rights and obligations of the parents are also respected. But the indoctrination of children – “often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to [and is not allowed to] question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned” – should not be any part of those rights. You might want to take a look at an article referenced in Humphrey’s paper by an American Jurist – James G. Dwyer – on the topic of parental rights:
"Parents' religion and children's welfare: debunking the doctrine of parents' rights," California Law Review, 82, 1371-1447
Ben Yachov said:
ReplyDeleteNobody consulted me as to wither or not it would be a good idea for there to be Gravity or for my physical form to evolve the way it did.
But that Catholic dogma is on par – as “brute facts” about reality – with the Law of Gravitation of Relativity is only your opinion. And those of a whole bunch of authoritarian demagogues stretching back over some 2000 years. There is absolutely no proof of any of the underlying metaphysics at all – as Anonymous himself conceded:
I have plenty of evidence and plausibility. Absolute proof? No, but absolute proof isn't available even in science typically.
And, as indicated, my impression is that there are far fewer facts as evidence on his side of the scales than there is on Dawkins’.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIn this case, no, it's not. The main point is about a claim being made that teaching children about hell is not only abusive, but as abusive or more abusive than sexual abuse.
A claim that has been simplified, generalized, and removed from the context to a dufficient degree that your statement of the claim bears only a surface resemblance to the actual claim of Dawkins, and contains almost none of the substance.
Steersman:
ReplyDeleteI am amazed, honestly gobsmacked, that BenYachov earlier promoted you as a reasonable sort. I can only hope that he renounces today's pacificism to return as the combox B.A. Baracus of before, itchin' to introduce fools to pain. And soon.
Your recent 3-part reply to Anonymous is a mess in which I could find no self-awareness, and no humility, to dilute your stultifying ignorance.
As tedious as this must be for everyone by now I can't quite ignore your gall in implying Anonymous lacked the "intellectual honesty to actually read" Dawkins in one post, while later writing this:
"As Feser uses all sorts of examples based on Aristotle’s physics to justify both his metaphysics and Thomist additions to it" - what an opportunity to prove your own intellectual honesty!
Give us one - just one - example of Dr. Feser using Aristotle's physics to justify anything. Anything. Or admit to us, and most importantly yourself, that on the existence of God you're irrational to the point of being unable to even read.
Untenured said...
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that naturalists must behave in an android like fashion. My point is that naturalists are being inconsistent when they try to make evaluative and moral assertions on the basis of sentiment and feeling.
When another basis comes up, let us know. As Feser explains natural law, it's morality depnds on judgments about what teh purpose of something is; such judgements are guided by sentiment and feelings. Camles with Hammers tries a different take, but it still seems to boil down to the same principle at the end.
It is not consistent to say, in one breath, that religious beliefs are irrational and should be discarded because they lack any kind of scientific grounding. And then in the next breath, affirm the "value of life" or the rightness of the welfare state or some such by appealing to sentiment and emotion.
Are religious beliefs the same type of knowledge as what is right? Is God nothing more than an abstract concept, with no more reality than the concept of red?
jack bodie said...
ReplyDeleteGive us one - just one - example of Dr. Feser using Aristotle's physics to justify anything. Anything.
Feser's presentation of the first Cause argument is dependent, among other things, on the different elements in a series of per se causes being simultaneous, having a beginning, and having an end, all three points contradicting modern physics.
>Feser's presentation of the first Cause argument is dependent, among other things, on the different elements in a series of per se causes being simultaneous, having a beginning, and having an end, all three points contradicting modern physics.
ReplyDeleteWe did this before.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/07/beguiled-by-scientism.html
Get a new act seriously.
jack bodie said:
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 3:32 PM
I can only hope that he renounces today's pacificism to return as the combox B.A. Baracus of before, itchin' to introduce fools to pain. And soon.
I think the prospect of seeing others in pain – a salient feature of Christianity, apparently – has unhinged your reason – and, one might suggest, that of Dr. Feser:
One wonders how [Aquinas] would have reacted to the mental and moral midgets now being marketed as “New Atheists” who peddle stale “refutations” of theism that were themselves refuted long before Aquinas came on the scene. Perhaps he would “get medieval” with them – not in the Quentin Tarantino sense (fun as that would be to see) but in the Thomas Aquinas sense of humbly arguing them into the ground ... [TLS; pg 75; original emphasis]
Give us one - just one - example of Dr. Feser using Aristotle's physics to justify anything. Anything. Or admit to us, and most importantly yourself, that on the existence of God you're irrational to the point of being unable to even read.
You obviously haven’t read Feser either – or many of my posts too – as both have detailed that extensively. But to repeat one of the choicer bits from one of my earlier posts:
“Suffice it for now to say that Aristotle’s notion of efficient causation is by no means easily identifiable with anything you’ll find in the writings of the typical modern philosopher. Another indication of this is that Aristotle would be mystified by the tendency to treat cause and effect as essentially a relation between temporally ordered events.” [TLS; pg 65]
Yet Feser continues on with his example of a brick thrown through a window which he apparently characterizes as “a series of simultaneous causes and effects” [pg 67]. While he promises to provide an answer to the manifest problem – if there aren’t any differences in the individual cause-effect elements then adding up a million of them still gives zero time between first cause and final effect (one serious illusion) – in “the next chapter”, the whole premise seems incoherent at best – something definitely does not compute.
In addition, I am most surprised that he could be using examples that are, more or less, consistent with Newtonian physics and of a human scale, particularly in light of his acknowledgement – in one of his articles on Scientism – that the “physics of the ancients [Aristotle?] and medievals was sorely lacking”. Raises some questions whether the examples have any bearing on, or provide any justification for, his and Aquinas’ conclusions about the existence and nature of God.
And, for a precise example, try this:
Also relevant to those arguments, as we’ll see, is a further Aristotelian principle concerning efficient causation, namely that whatever is in the effect must in some sense be contained in the cause as well. The basic idea is that a cause cannot give to its effect what it does not have to give, and it can be illustrated by a simple example. Suppose you come across a puddle of water .... [TLS; pg 67]
So, a case of using an example predicated on Aristotelian physics to justify further conclusions, notably and crucially, pertaining to the “metaphysical structure of reality” [pg 72] and the supposed existence and characteristics of God. Q.E.D. Any questions, please refer to The Last Superstition ....
>But that Catholic dogma is on par – as “brute facts” about reality – with the Law of Gravitation of Relativity is only your opinion.
ReplyDeleteYou really have to stop begging the question. If the Catholic faith is the true faith(& you still haven't figured out you are on a blog with a bunch of Catholics? Seriously?) then by definition her dogmas have the brute fact truth of Gravity or Physics.
That is what we are here to determine or refute. But first we must deal with philosophy and natural theology.
Stop it. I think deep down Steerman you are trying but you still have more of a way to go.
At this point I am content you learn philosophy & learn it is a true means of natural knowledge along side science and math.
djindra, Beingitself and One Brow OTOH are lost causes.
“Feser's presentation of the first Cause argument is dependent, among other things, on the different elements in a series of per se causes being simultaneous, having a beginning, and having an end, all three points contradicting modern physics."
ReplyDeleteWell, whatever the above means, or is supposed to mean, to suggest that first Cause argument can be dependent on “elements” contradicting (or confirming for that matter) modern physics is to demonstrate full misapprehension of first Cause argument, per se causality and, most probably, “modern physics”.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteEfficient Causation is a metaphysical principle. The demand was for "one example of Dr. Feser using Aristotle's physics to justify anything".
One Brow,
It seems that you might be conflating per se and per accidens there.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteFeser has said repeatedly he is giving a metaphysical philosophical description of change in regards to cause and motion. He is not giving an explanation from physics.
He has said in TLS Aristotle's physics are invalid but his metaphysics still obtain.
Metaphyical & philosophical discriptions of natur it's sometimes called modelling.
Anyway no matter how many times he explains this some fanatical Gnu (Unbeguiled, One Brow, J etc) they insist he is talking about physics.
It's like listening to boring fundamentalists wax eloquent on how Catholics supposedly believe in salvation by their own words apart from Grace & yet no matter how many times you quote Canon One Session Six of the Council of Trent(which condemns that proposition BTW) they stick their fingers in their ears and chant No you don't really believe but what I say you believe.
Feser has explained this over and over and over. I think he is the foremost authority on what he means.
So your claim he is basing his argument on Aristotle's faulty physics is not honest.
Your better than that.
Josh
ReplyDeleteOne Brow knows that actually I think he is trying to get a rise out of me. I would ignore it except poor Steersman is buying into it.
@Steersman
ReplyDeleteBefore responding you may want to read this link.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/07/beguiled-by-scientism.html
Aristotle's physics (which is discredited science) for example claimed the natural state of objects is stasis(which he took from Parmides) thus when you roll a rock down a hill you actualize it only to the point stasis kicks in.
ReplyDeleteToday we know this is not true in light of gravity and inertia. Such as if you throw a rock in zero gravity it will keep going and going till something acts on it.
Aristotle's metaphysics on the other had teach us motion or change occurs when a potency is actualized. The potency to actuality metaphysical description pretty much applies regardless if you use Aristotle's false physics or the incomplete physics of Newton or the incomplete physics of Einstein and or the incomplete physics of Heisenberg.
Metaphysics is not the same as physics just because physics is the root word.
PLUEEZ!!!!
Ben,
ReplyDeleteFeser uses folk-physics to infer his metaphysics. You can try and wall-off his metaphysics from refutation by saying it's not about physics, but that's just dishonest.
He misunderstands physics, and from that misunderstanding conjectures his metaphysics. In TLS he always gives physical examples and just gets the physics wrong.
Also, Aristotle used the same method do derive his physics as he did his metaphysics. Because he got the physics so disastrously wrong, it is reasonable to conclude that his method is unreliable.
Steersman: "I've argued that in both cases the nature of the beast – so to speak – is authoritarianism with its opposition to individualism..."
ReplyDeleteI apologize if someone else has already said this (I didn't have time to read the whole thread!) but...
The doctrine of hell, if properly understood, is all about individual rights, specifically: the right to reject God and all that he has to offer.
God gives each individual that right - then respects their choice.
Hell is a bad place simply because nothing good is there. All that is good - love, peace, joy, beauty, etc. - comes from God. Reject God, reject all of the above. It's your right.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteYet Feser continues on with his example of a brick thrown through a window which he apparently characterizes as “a series of simultaneous causes and effects” [pg 67]. While he promises to provide an answer to the manifest problem – if there aren’t any differences in the individual cause-effect elements then adding up a million of them still gives zero time between first cause and final effect (one serious illusion) – in “the next chapter”, the whole premise seems incoherent at best – something definitely does not compute.
It's unfortunate, Steersman. These objections of yours have already been dealt with, and, I might add, without response from you in spite of the time you have invested here since then. And on topics which have arisen after the fact, no less. And yet, you repeat the same objections. I wonder, what reason can one have to engage another in argument if that person is willing to drop the subject when refuted only to resurrect it at a later date (and still, without response)? Is this your modus operandi?
Also relevant to those arguments, as we’ll see, is a further Aristotelian principle concerning efficient causation, namely that whatever is in the effect must in some sense be contained in the cause as well. The basic idea is that a cause cannot give to its effect what it does not have to give, and it can be illustrated by a simple example. Suppose you come across a puddle of water .... [TLS; pg 67]
So, a case of using an example predicated on Aristotelian physics to justify further conclusions, notably and crucially, pertaining to the “metaphysical structure of reality” [pg 72] and the supposed existence and characteristics of God. Q.E.D. Any questions, please refer to The Last Superstition ....
Another thing that surprises me about posts like this is how you never come very close to actually proving the point you say you are going to. Your posts provides NO examples of aristotelian physics. Efficient causality, as a classifaction, the principle of sufficient reason, etc. are ALL examples of metaphysical principles. And yet you site these as examples of using aristotelian physics? It makes one wonder whether you know what metaphysics (or physics, for that matter) even is.
BeingItself,
ReplyDeleteHe misunderstands physics, and from that misunderstanding conjectures his metaphysics. In TLS he always gives physical examples and just gets the physics wrong.
What are these physics that he misunderstands? I'm curious. (Where in the text, I mean)
Dan,
ReplyDelete"I'm interested that you made a much stronger claim - namely, that science can answer *all* questions worth asking."
I did not claim science can answer all questions worth asking. I claim we don't know the limits of science. I do think it's likely science will be able to answer questions we consider out of scientific reach today. And I claim that questions science cannot answer are not likely to be answered by other means. I don't fault those other means for trying, though.
BenYachov,
ReplyDeleteSo you think Catholic dogma is on par with the law of gravity. I'm glad to be a lost cause in your eyes.
Reject God, reject all of the above.
ReplyDeleteHardly true... Rejecting your particular deity has nothing to do with rejecting "all that is good."
So as we can see the Gnu's dogmatically believe Feser is arguing from physics not metaphysics. Even thought Feser has gone out of his way to explain he is arguing from metaphysics.
ReplyDeleteThe Atheist Fundie is like the anti-Catholic religious Fundie who accuses the Catholic Church of teaching the Pelagian heresy.
No matter how many dogmatic statements you produce for them from the Popes condemning salvation by our own works apart from Grace we cite. No matter how many Councils or Saints we cite.
For them their pastor said it & the facts be damned.
We argued here on who has the right to interpret the Bible. The Church or the Individual?
Well you don't have to believe in God to realize Feser is the only authoritative interpreter of Feser.
>In TLS he always gives physical examples and just gets the physics wrong.
He makes analogies from physics which he calls "stock examples". For example on page 91 he gives Aquinas hand moves stick moves stone & he calls the hand the "first cause" in this essentially ordered series but explains it's not really the first cause since muscles move the hand, neurons move the muscles, chemistry, physics, quantum physics etc...but the Hand is not literally the first cause in that series it is merely illustrative of the need for a first cause in an essentially ordered series.
As opposed to an accidentally ordered series which needs no first cause. The example of Fathers having sons is the stock example there.
But Beingitself (ONE Brow has the same malfuction BTW) seems to think because Feser mentions physical activities he must be arguing physics. Physical activities can't be giving a metaphysical discription without it being physics? Since when?
Non-believers by negation who follow the light God gives them can be saved.(Pius IX, Alexander VIII, St Justin Martyr etc).
ReplyDeleteSo then why is Catholicism needed? The 'saved' would be saved regardless of their Catholicism, and the damned would be damned without it.
Nobody consulted me as to wither or not it would be a good idea for there to be Gravity or for my physical form to evolve the way it did. I did not give my consent that the speed of Light is to be 299,792,458 meters per second.
The rather large difference there is that the speed of light is the same for you and I, while the authority of the Popes isn't.
the Hand is not literally the first cause in that series it is merely illustrative of the need for a first cause in an essentially ordered series.
ReplyDeleteWhich does very well to show the flaw in the "first cause" argument... as the hand isn't the first cause, it is just part of a chain of events, and the that the "start" of the ordered series is just a choice made when defining the series.
If you know God personally then any argument against Him seems about as valid as an argument against the existence of the Sun, or of one's wife, or of one's children.
ReplyDeleteI've got a more interesting question that might break the logic-chopping impasse insisted on by Djindra, Steerman, and others, who are effectively engaged in discussing the unlikely existence of someone who is standing in the room right next to them.
The question is this: How do they know that God would not show Himself to them, in His own way, in His own time--and not as some trained seal in the circus--if they asked Him to sincerely and persistently? Have they ever tried? Or are they just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks, backseat drivers, and sideline hecklers judging only those who've bothered to actually get onto the field?
The simple fact is this, gentlemen. Millions, nay billions, know God personally in one way or another, and as such, can only look at the sort of reservations you are so stuck on with a bemused shrug.
While they point at the sun, you stare at their fingers.
This really isn't anywhere near as difficult as you're making it. A little humility and hope and shedding of know-it-all cynicism is all it takes. I make no claims in saying this that you need to follow Christianity, but for Heaven's sakes, guys, how about getting the Hell off the bench and onto the field?
Stone Top,
ReplyDeleteWhich does very well to show the flaw in the "first cause" argument... as the hand isn't the first cause, it is just part of a chain of events, and the that the "start" of the ordered series is just a choice made when defining the series.
You do realize that the argument never does "choose" where the start is? The argument does not take a hypothetical series from God to some observed fact in the same way that the hand analogy specifies a series from hand to stick to rock, etc.
Rather, Feser tries to illustrate what a causal series ordered per se is (by virtue of this analogy), and then argue that such a series cannot be infinite, and therefore, must have a first. That is, he tries to argue that by metaphysical necessity, there must be a First cause however far removed from the present observation.
There could be any finite number of intermediaries, but the number will be finite, and that's the point. But whether that first cause is three times, four times, or a million times removed is never specified. No such "choice" takes place, because it is irrelevant to the argument. Which, I might add, "does very well to show" how little you understand the argument.
BenYachov said (or should I say “B.A. Baracus”?):
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 4:30 PM
If the Catholic faith is the true faith (& you still haven't figured out you are on a blog with a bunch of Catholics? Seriously?) then by definition her dogmas have the brute fact truth of Gravity or Physics.
That is what we are here to determine or refute. But first we must deal with philosophy and natural theology.
Seems that question then is whether in fact, as you suggest, the premise “Catholic faith is the true faith” is true or not. But it doesn’t seem to me like you can really have much interest in any “determining or refuting” if you’re accepting the Church’s dogmas as brute facts and are unwilling to consider that they might not be. And, speaking of indoctrination, reminds me of a quote of Loyola from one of his “Rules for Thinking with the Church”:
That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be black.
But, parenthetically, I was quite aware that this was a Catholic blog and had consciously decided to “enter the lion’s dens” because I was interested in the arguments that Feser was presenting and in knowing whether there were any justifications for them.
Matteo said:
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 8:24 PM
The question is this: How do they know that God would not show Himself to them, in His own way, in His own time--and not as some trained seal in the circus--if they asked Him to sincerely and persistently?
And how would I know that I wasn’t fooling myself? Lots of people have you know. Or are you prepared to say that Muhammad was deluding himself about talking to the Angel Gabriel? That Joseph Smith was deluded about talking to the Angel Moroni? And many thousands of others?
While they point at the sun, you stare at their fingers.
Seems Dr. Feser belabours that point as well. But what I see, or what it looks like to me is that you’re projecting what you want to be there, not what really is. You may see that moon or sun there in your mind’s eye, but like the spinning dancer it could be more perceptual illusion than tangible reality – and anyone who has looked at such illusions knows how real they can appear.
If you know God personally then any argument against Him seems about as valid as an argument against the existence of the Sun, or of one's wife, or of one's children.
ReplyDeleteSure... and the same goes for Allah, Zeus, Tiamat, Thetans, Voodoo spirits, etc...
who are effectively engaged in discussing the unlikely existence of someone who is standing in the room right next to them.
The difference there being that you can open the door and say "hey, there that person is"
How do they know that God would not show Himself to them, in His own way, in His own time--and not as some trained seal in the circus--if they asked Him to sincerely and persistently? Have they ever tried?
Have you done so for every Horus? How about Vishnu? Or maybe Thor?
Rather, Feser tries to illustrate what a causal series ordered per se is (by virtue of this analogy), and then argue that such a series cannot be infinite, and therefore, must have a first. That is, he tries to argue that by metaphysical necessity, there must be a First cause however far removed from the present observation.
ReplyDeleteWhich is where his argument falls apart. The "hand moves -> stick moves" sequence is just a subset of a much larger sequence {... -> arm moves -> hand moves -> stick moves -> ...}, with the choice of starting the subset at "hand moves" being a matter of convenience.
There could be any finite number of intermediaries, but the number will be finite, and that's the point.
Why must that number be finite?
Have you done so for every Horus? How about Vishnu? Or maybe Thor?
ReplyDeleteThe question remains: Have you done it at all?
Have you done so for every Horus? How about Vishnu? Or maybe Thor?
ReplyDeleteA question which once again highlights the interesting phenomenon that an atheist--of all people--will complain that the real problem is that too many Gods might answer the call.
Matteo said:
ReplyDeleteA question which once again highlights the interesting phenomenon that an atheist--of all people--will complain that the real problem is that too many Gods might answer the call.
I thought you were arguing that there was only one?
If there are that many then maybe that's because each one is only in the mind of the beholder. Sort of like a Rorschach inkblot.
Just to add to Matteo's point:
ReplyDeleteI am now a Christian, but even during my long periods of agnosticism, I wanted Christianity to be true and I wanted atheism to be false. I even prayed to God a few times in order to ask Him, if he existed, to reveal Himself to me, because I wanted Him to be there. I suspect the converse can be said for atheists, for the question of God's existence is not an emotionally neutral issue. It is not an issue emotionally on par with, say, the ontological status of propositions. Before we even begin to argue, we want one option to be true rather than the other. [Cf. Thomas Nagel]
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 10:27 PM
I even prayed to God a few times in order to ask Him, if he existed, to reveal Himself to me, because I wanted Him to be there. I suspect the converse can be said for atheists, for the question of God's existence is not an emotionally neutral issue.
Don’t really think it is possible for an atheist to pray to a God he doesn’t believe in to not be there. Seems to be a basic asymmetry there – sort of like chirality – such that there is no way that the two positions can be construed as being mirror-images of each other. Probably simply a case of not praying to a God they don’t think is there.
But wanting something to be true rather than trying to find out what is actually true can certainly be problematic, not just in the religious. As Richard Feynman famously argued:
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that.
djindra,
ReplyDeletePardon me - wrong formulation. I've been taking 'questions worth asking' as if it were 'questions which can be answered', which may not be the same thing.
But you do say that if science can't answer it, nothing can.
Now, when asked why this should be, you say, 'it can predict future, verifiable events with far more accuracy than any other method'.
which doesn't establish why science alone can provide answers to questions.
But you do say that if science can't answer it, nothing can.
ReplyDeleteSo far it is the only system that produces results independent of the observing individuals beliefs.
The question remains: Have you done it at all?
ReplyDeleteYes. It was only a few years back that I was a Bible-reading, daily-praying Christian.
A question which once again highlights the interesting phenomenon that an atheist--of all people--will complain that the real problem is that too many Gods might answer the call.
ReplyDeleteHow so? You seem to be saying that if you believe in something hard enough that thing will reveal its existence to you. Which could be said by the follower of any religion out of the set of all possible religions.
You are pretty much asking me to pick one religion out of all possible religions and pray to that deity until I believe... which raises the question of what happens if I do that to another religion? If I pick Hinduism and pray with all my heart for Vishnu to reveal himself to me then will he?
StoneTop: "How so? You seem to be saying that if you believe in something hard enough that thing will reveal its existence to you. Which could be said by the follower of any religion out of the set of all possible religions."
ReplyDeleteSurely one should explore the claims of the various religions first. In modern times it is only Islam and Christianity which try to convince people to convert to them in order to be saved. Do Hindus go around proselytizing their religion? Do Sikhs? Did followers of Thor do it? or Apollo? Does hell await those who do not follow Vishnu or Ra?
@StoneTop:
ReplyDelete"But you do say that if science can't answer it, nothing can.
So far it is the only system that produces results independent of the observing individuals beliefs."
Depending on how you define science this is either a vacuous statement as every field of knowledge is science, or it is demonstrably false.
@One Brow:
ReplyDeleteWhen another basis comes up, let us know. As Feser explains natural law, it's morality depnds on judgments about what the purpose of something is; such judgements are guided by sentiment and feelings.
Judgements about teleology and proper function are not rooted in "sentiment" even though the average person often relies upon sentiment as a rough and fallible guide. At the theoretical level, judgments about functions are objective claims about things in the world, and you can verify or disconfirm these claims. In practice this is what biologists do when they argue over whether an organ is vestigial, say, or when they call certain traits "spandrels". They are making claims about function and they are not just emoting or relying on sentiment.
To equate judgements about function with mere moral sentiments is to misunderstand natural law theory at a pretty basic level. Even if you don't buy into NL theory, you cannot deny that it is capable of grounding morality in a set of objective facts in a way that few other moral theories can. Sentimentalism, on the other hand, isn't even a theory about moral right and wrong. It's a theory about what people's moral judgments ultimately amount to. i.e. mere expressions of taste that have no genuine normative force.
BenYachov said...
ReplyDeleteWe did this before.
Bloand dismissal of a point is not a refutation of that point.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you might be conflating per se and per accidens there.
You are not the first to think so. Let's start with a simple example: a Newton's cradle. You drop a ball from the left. The energy transfers from ball to ball (there are usually five), until the ball on the right swings up. If you address this example, you will be the first regular on this site to do so.
1) Do you agree that the transfers of cause to from ball to ball are per se, and thus we have a chain a per se causes?
2) Do you agree that the left ball stops moving before the right ball moves (it is basic physics, there)?
If you agree with one and two, it is hopefully obvious that this is a per se chain that deoes not have simultneous movement. Once that possibility arises, the first Cause argument falls.
BenYachov said...
ReplyDeleteAnyway no matter how many times he explains this some fanatical Gnu (Unbeguiled, One Brow, J etc) they insist he is talking about physics.
Actually, I say he is using physics to ground his metaphysics, and using a bad physics to do so. A metaphysics with no grounding in physics is just a fairy tale.
Josh
One Brow knows that actually I think he is trying to get a rise out of me.
Do you realize you are not just insulting me, but also Josh, by saying that he is having trouble coming to the proper conclusion concering my intentions?
Notice Josh how One Brow has ignored the brute fact Feser is not making an argument from physics by making a metaphysical discription of a physical process.
ReplyDeleteNotice how he is pretending the warrant of his claim(Feser is making an argument from physics) is still valid now he is trying to sucker you into defending it.
He is going to try to get you to argue physics and ignore philosophy.
This is the type of shameless Sophist he is.
One Brow can't argue in good faith to save his life.
Alyosha said...
ReplyDeleteRather, Feser tries to illustrate what a causal series ordered per se is (by virtue of this analogy), and then argue that such a series cannot be infinite, and therefore, must have a first. That is, he tries to argue that by metaphysical necessity, there must be a First cause however far removed from the present observation.
Feser does not try to argue that a pro se series must be finite, he states it flatly. The only way you could argue such a series is finite is if you accept such a series is simultaneous, and Feser does not claim true simultaneity for such a series.
>Actually, I say he is using physics to ground his metaphysics,
ReplyDeleteWhere does Feser claim he is doing that?
>and using a bad physics to do so. A metaphysics with no grounding in physics is just a fairy tale.
To bad he is not using physics to ground his metaphysics he is making a metaphysical description4 of a physical process.
The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI am now a Christian, but even during my long periods of agnosticism, I wanted Christianity to be true and I wanted atheism to be false. I even prayed to God a few times in order to ask Him, if he existed, to reveal Himself to me, because I wanted Him to be there. I suspect the converse can be said for atheists, ...
Actually, I'm a reluctant atheist. I would much prefer the notion of having eternal life to that of dying.
Stone Top,
ReplyDeleteWhich is where his argument falls apart.
Or rather, which is where you obviously misunderstand the argument.
The "hand moves -> stick he moves" sequence is just a subset of a much larger sequence {... -> arm moves -> hand moves -> stick moves -> ...}, with the choice of starting the subset at "hand moves" being a matter of convenience.
But there is no parity here to the cosmological argument. The argument never makes any such choice, or even any such subset. The subset is only used to demonstrate what a causal series ordered per se is: that is, a series where later members of the series are ALL dependent here and now on the causal activity of something prior to them, and the cessation of that activity results in a cessation of activity through the whole series. The leaf is dependent on the rock, which is dependent on the stick, which is dependent on the hand and so forth. And if the hand were to cease movement, everything else would. But then Feser's argument, as a metaphysical argument, applies to ALL such series, and the goal isn't to show that God stands as first cause to some particular other cause, which results in a series of other causes ordered per se. After demonstrating What kind of series he has in mind Feser argues that such a series must be finite and that said cause will be of a particular sort.
Feser clarifies these very points repeatedly, which gives me the impression that you have never read the book. Which, in turn, makes me wonder why you are so willing to tell everyone else where his arguments break down. Typically, rebuttal follows understanding and the illustration of a flaw requires that the flaw first be perceived.
Why must that number be finite?
Excellent question, since, as I said, the argument depends on it. This really is the point of the argument. However, it is interesting that although Feser has himself said much to try and answer this question it is precisely this, the main point of his argument you have neither addressed, nor are (apparently) aware of. Which further confirms my conclusion that you haven't bothered to actually try and understand Feser and are thus in no place to tell anyone where his argument breaks down. I know it's a pain having to listen to someone before telling them where they are wrong, but it really is proper. And since you seem to like being here, and Feser answers your question much better than I, let me propose that we kill two birds with one stone. Go and read Feser, try to see how he answers your question and then come back. That way, you will be in a better position (and a more intellectually honest position) to tell us where you think the flaws are. And you will have gotten your understanding of the argument from a more credible and more lucid source than yours truly.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteFeser does not try to argue that a pro se series must be finite
Actually, he discusses it in decent length. He may not provide you with a syllogism, but he hardly "states it flatly".
The only way you could argue such a series is finite is if you accept such a series is simultaneous
Now there's a good example of "stating it flatly"!
Untenured said...
ReplyDeleteJudgements about teleology and proper function are not rooted in "sentiment" even though the average person often relies upon sentiment as a rough and fallible guide. At the theoretical level, judgments about functions are objective claims about things in the world, and you can verify or disconfirm these claims.
I am aware this is the position. However, this is not how it works in practice.
For example, take two competing claims about sexual activity:
1) The primary purpose of sexual activity is reproduction, and pair-bonding is a secondary, supportive purpose
2) The primary purpose of sexual activity is pair-bonding, and reproduction is a secondary, supportive purpose.
Please show your objective method to verify one of these claims over the other, without relying on any subjective or sentimental opinion.
In practice this is what biologists do when they argue over whether an organ is vestigial, say, or when they call certain traits "spandrels". They are making claims about function and they are not just emoting or relying on sentiment.
Biologists attach no moral authority to referring to an appendix as vestigal.
To equate judgements about function with mere moral sentiments is to misunderstand natural law theory at a pretty basic level. Even if you don't buy into NL theory, you cannot deny that it is capable of grounding morality in a set of objective facts in a way that few other moral theories can.
When I see a natural law argument that does ground morality in a set of objective facts, without the addition of subjective or sentimental postions, then I will believe that it has such a capability. I offer you such an opportunity above.
Sentimentalism, on the other hand, isn't even a theory about moral right and wrong. It's a theory about what people's moral judgments ultimately amount to. i.e. mere expressions of taste that have no genuine normative force.
I*f all you have are lemons, make lemonade.
A metaphysics with no grounding in physics is just a fairy tale.
ReplyDeleteAnd which physics experiment grounded that metaphysical statement? Milliken's oil drop? Rutherford's foil?
BenYachov said...
ReplyDelete... he is making a metaphysical description of a physical process.
That's what grounding metaphysics in physics consists of. Thank you for confirming what I am saying. His description of the physical process is incorrect, which is why the grounding is in bad physics.
The burden of proof is on you to show otherwise.
Why bother, when you acknowledge the point?
Matteo said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow: A metaphysics with no grounding in physics is just a fairy tale.
And which physics experiment grounded that metaphysical statement? Milliken's oil drop? Rutherford's foil?
What metaphysical statement? Noting the useless of a metaphysical model, or the usefulness of a different model, is not an arguement for their reality.
Alyosha said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow: Feser does not try to argue that a pro se series must be finite
Actually, he discusses it in decent length. He may not provide you with a syllogism, but he hardly "states it flatly".
He present no valid reasons for considering it to be finite. He goes back into the neurons in the brain, but never discusses why there needs to be a terminus, and provides no evidence for finiteness.
Now there's a good example of "stating it flatly"!
Do you have an alternative argument for the finiteness? Feser presents none.
Alyosha said...
ReplyDeleteBut there is no parity here to the cosmological argument. The argument never makes any such choice, or even any such subset. The subset is only used to demonstrate what a causal series ordered per se is: that is, a series where later members of the series are ALL dependent here and now on the causal activity of something prior to them, and the cessation of that activity results in a cessation of activity through the whole series.
There is no physical description of such a series, though, unless you arbitrarily cut off the effects of the series.
The leaf is dependent on the rock, which is dependent on the stick, which is dependent on the hand and so forth. And if the hand were to cease movement, everything else would.
Physically incorrect. The leaf does not cease motion unless there is a pervailing counterforce (such friction from the gound). Thus, the leaf pushes the surface of the ground, which pushes other layers of the ground, transfering the force from atom to atom, in a never-ending chain of per se processes. All of this continues long after the hand stops, yet every link in the chain is per se.
After demonstrating What kind of series he has in mind Feser argues that such a series must be finite and that said cause will be of a particular sort.
He makes neither a formal nor an evidentiary argument for such finiteness.
Which further confirms my conclusion that you haven't bothered to actually try and understand Feser and are thus in no place to tell anyone where his argument breaks down.
Noting a lack in Feser's argument is evidence to you someone does nto understand it. Thank you for clarifying that.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteI'm having a hard time seeing how your analogy of the Newton's Cradle (I loved these when I was a kid) applies to the Cosmological Argument as stated by Feser. Once the hand moves away, having done its work, the motion of the cradle does not cease. Noting this, I can't see how your questions about the Cradle itself apply to a critique.
His description of the physical process is incorrect, which is why the grounding is in bad physics.
In what way? I can see his physical description lacking the detail that Feynman might put in it, but which description in particular is incorrect? I asked BeingItself what of Feser's physics is incorrect.
One Brow, your insistence that Feser has grounded his arguments in bad physics is nothing short of a bizarre grasping at straws.
ReplyDeleteJust why is the idea that God exists, and can be shown to exist, so horrifying for you?
>That's what grounding metaphysics in physics consists of.
ReplyDelete"Grounding metaphysics in physics" is the equivolent of saying "Making a metaphysical discription of a physical process"?
Oh like "Color is an expansive property" (which it is) vs Light Absorbtion properties of Green glass is expansive(which is silly)?
I don't think so.
I'm sorry but you are not using any fimilar scholastic or general philosophical terminology. You just making stuff up.
Which is why nothing you say here means anything.
You are simply acting in bad faith.
>What metaphysical statement?
ReplyDeleteThe fact Feser has said over and over he is making a metaphysical argument and not an argument from physics is lost on One Brow.
He is here for sophistry not rational argument. He is just a less hysterical version of djindra.
OneBrow:
ReplyDelete"For example, take two competing claims about sexual activity:
1) The primary purpose of sexual activity is reproduction, and pair-bonding is a secondary, supportive purpose
2) The primary purpose of sexual activity is pair-bonding, and reproduction is a secondary, supportive purpose."
Surely since sexual activity is the only way to reproduce (in humans) (objectively true) and pair-bonding may be facilitated or even caused by non-sexual means (objectively true), it follows that 1 is the more likely correct answer.
>One Brow, your insistence that Feser has grounded his arguments in bad physics is nothing short of a bizarre grasping at straws.
ReplyDeleteYou should go read his "review" of the TLS.
In Feser's brief example of how an infinite series of underpowered boxcars are not able to account for the motion of a caboose(with a Locomotive as the metaphor for a necessary first cause) his solution to the problem is to postulate tiny mini-motors on each individual box car. That is how an infinite series of "unpowered" boxcars you see can pull a caboose(by making them functional Locomotives....oh where would One Brow be without his reliance on the Fallacy of equivocation?).
Thus an "essential" series he reasons doesn't need a first cause and can be infinite.
I kid you not Josh go read it yourself.
>There is no physical description of such a series, though, unless you arbitrarily cut off the effects of the series.
ReplyDeleteThere is an argument from analogy you can't in principle have a series of infinite unpowered boxcars pulling a caboose.
We are doing scholastic philosophy here not physics shithead!
Thus if you want to argue against it go read some Hume or Neo-Humean philosophy & have at it Feynman is not relevant here.
ReplyDeleteIt's not hard.
BenYachov,
ReplyDeleteThe SIWOTI is strong with you.
>there is no physical description of such a series.
ReplyDeleteOf course not there is a philosophical one.
Just as you can't have a biological description of a collapsed quantum wave function.
You are so Thick One Brow I can't help but go all BA Baracus on you.
Hey Anon if I don't stand up against wrongness then the Sith Lords win.
ReplyDeleteJust saying....
Steersman said...
ReplyDelete" djindra,
Thanks.
Interesting problem though – the balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the group. Not always easy to determine the fine line between them. A concept that goes quite a ways back into the history of philosophy if I’m not mistaken ….
September 20, 2011 9:03 PM"
" [T]he rights of the group. "
"rights"?
"group"?
Oh man ...
Ben,
ReplyDeleteI kid you not Josh go read it yourself.
I couldn't find his discussion of the boxcar example, but yes, I don't see how he could get around the need for a locomotive by positing little mini-locomotives in each boxcar...
So much time seems to be spent in these comboxes rebuffing the remnants of Positivism/Scientism/Radical Skepticism, etc. I just don't get it. The New Atheists have created a whole new generation of "philosophers who refuse to philosophize."
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteI'm having a hard time seeing how your analogy of the Newton's Cradle (I loved these when I was a kid) applies to the Cosmological Argument as stated by Feser. Once the hand moves away, having done its work, the motion of the cradle does not cease. Noting this, I can't see how your questions about the Cradle itself apply to a critique.
I'll be happy to discuss why I think it applies in some detail, but frankly, I don't see the point if you are going to turn around and say that one of the answers to the questions I posited was "no". If that were your answer, it would mean that we have fundamentally different notions of per se causation, and I think it would be more fruitful to address those differences directly, rather than indirectly.
You mentioned "after the hand has moved away", but I specfically did not include the hand because that would add a possibly per accidens cause into what was otherwise a per se chain, and I wanted to discuss specifically the nature of per se chains and their ability to extend temporally.
In what way? I can see his physical description lacking the detail that Feynman might put in it, but which description in particular is incorrect? I asked BeingItself what of Feser's physics is incorrect.
The physical processes being identified as per se causal connections are not simultaneous, do not terminate, and do not originate.
Looking strictly at the sequence from a single strike of the left ball to the movement of the right ball, 1) do you agree that the transfers of cause to from ball to ball are per se, and thus we have a chain a per se causes, and 2) do you agree that the left ball stops moving before the right ball moves?
Again, if either answer is no, then you'll have to explain to me what there is to a per se cause that I'm missing.
Matteo said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow, your insistence that Feser has grounded his arguments in bad physics is nothing short of a bizarre grasping at straws.
Your refusal to address the question is little short of putting your fingers in your ears.
Just why is the idea that God exists, and can be shown to exist, so horrifying for you?
It isn't. I'd love to have a sound proof for the existence of God. Feser does not present one.
BenYachov said...
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but you are not using any fimilar scholastic or general philosophical terminology.
NO, I'm sure I'm not. that one of the consequences of trying to learn about things.
Here you go Josh. The stupidity is amazing.
ReplyDeletehttp://lifetheuniverseandonebrow.blogspot.com/2009/11/review-of-tls-unmoving-first-cause.html
QUOTE"In the train analogy, it's much more like each railroad car has an oxygen tank inn the front, a hydrogen tank in the rear, and in between each car is a little motor that burns the fuels to power the following car. The engine is not only quite possibly infinitely far away, it is not needed at all."
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSurely since sexual activity is the only way to reproduce (in humans) (objectively true) and pair-bonding may be facilitated or even caused by non-sexual means (objectively true), it follows that 1 is the more likely correct answer.
What is the objective reason for tying a primary purpose to a sole means of accomplishing something?
For that matter, do you follow this reasoning consistently? For example, some people can walk on their hands, so there are other means of walking besides using your feet. By contrast, is you wish to stick your foot in your mouth, you can only do so by having a foot. Does that mean the primary purpose of having a foot is to stick it in your mouth?
>NO, I'm sure I'm not. that one of the consequences of trying to learn about things.
ReplyDeleteYou are sure you are not giving the correct termonology yet you take it upon yourself to act as if you know what you are talking about?
You are a real piece of work Low Brow.
BenYachov said...
ReplyDeleteHey Anon if I don't stand up against wrongness then the Sith Lords win.
You're a regular Mace Windu.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteI couldn't find his discussion of the boxcar example, but yes, I don't see how he could get around the need for a locomotive by positing little mini-locomotives in each boxcar...
Why do you think the locomotive is needed? What additional purpose does it serve?
BenYachov said...
ReplyDeleteYou are sure you are not giving the correct termonology yet you take it upon yourself to act as if you know what you are talking about?
I've always been open to correction, and accepted it where offered. But you don't sharpen a knife by stuffing it in a drawer.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteHe present no valid reasons for considering it to be finite. He goes back into the neurons in the brain, but never discusses why there needs to be a terminus, and provides no evidence for finiteness.
Sure he discusses why there needs to be a terminus (though I’m not sure what “evidence” for finiteness would constitute) in both TLS and Aquinas. And he also goes from Neurons to the state of the nervous system to molecular structure, to the atomic basic of the molecular structure, and on through a number of other steps.
Aside from his references to other philosophers in defense of this premise and his numerous analogies which attempt to demonstrate the necessity of a first cause, he discusses the problem with a causal series ordered per se, in which each component derives its activity from another. Without the motion of the hand there would be no motion in the stick, and thus the stone, and thus the leaf, etc. For such is the nature of a causal series ordered per se. But, if there is no first member, and if none of the other members are the source of change, then there is no change. There must be a first cause, if there is to be any change at all, since none of the components in this series can claim to have produced it, nor even can the whole series as a whole. It is something like, if I might use another analogy, having a copy of a book that never existed. If there is no book, there can be no copy, and saying there is a really, really long series of copies does nothing to explain why the copy exists at all, or how any of them ever got to be copies.
Feser also goes into a lengthy explanation of how act and potency pertain to the topic at hand. He spends several pages on this in TLS and even more in Aquinas. So, I’m not sure what to say to your repeated “There are no…” comments. Other than that it seems you, rather than Feser, have a habit of speaking flatly. I don’t mind assertions in general, but they look much better when they are not bald.
Physically incorrect. The leaf does not cease motion unless there is a pervailing counterforce (such friction from the gound). Thus, the leaf pushes the surface of the ground, which pushes other layers of the ground, transfering the force from atom to atom, in a never-ending chain of per se processes. All of this continues long after the hand stops, yet every link in the chain is per se.
If it’s physically incorrect, you at least have not shown it to be. True, the leaf has inertia, as do the other things in this series, but as Feser has acknowledged elsewhere (http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/08/edwards-on-infinite-causal-series.html) and in spite of your earlier bald assertion, a causal series ordered per se is important because of its instrumental character rather than its simultaneity. What is not physically incorrect, no matter how much you don’t like it, is the fact that the leaf’s motion is instrumental and ordered per se. One can hardly fault Feser for not taking his example too far, especially given that to do so would serve no purpose.
Noting a lack in Feser's argument is evidence to you someone does nto understand it. Thank you for clarifying that.
Do you make a habit of ignoring context? What demonstrated that he did not understand it was rather, the fact that he thought the argument took some subset of a causal series and “chose” a beginning for it, when in fact it does not such thing. And further, that he asked a question that Feser spent pages trying to answer. But, thank you for clarifying the fact that you are not interested in what I have actually said, and prefer to malign me for something I did not say. I’ll be sure to keep this in mind when reading what you say about others.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so hung up on simultaneity anyway?
It's the instrumental character of the causes, not the fact that they are (or aren't) simultaneous, that differentiates an essentially ordered series from an accidentally ordered one.
Sorry Aloysha -
ReplyDeleteYou're faster than me; Anonymous is faster than me; I should just go back to watching BenYachov take care of One Brow!
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteI specfically did not include the hand because that would add a possibly per accidens cause into what was otherwise a per se chain, and I wanted to discuss specifically the nature of per se chains and their ability to extend temporally.
It seems to me that you want me to consider the first ball of the Cradle as having the ability to actualize its own potential movement, and then consider the whole as a per se series of causes. You'll have to explain why the external actualization (hand) is not relevant; otherwise I'm left with an analogical notion of the universe that caused itself to come into being (causa sui), which frankly is idiocy that I'm tired of hearing (after a long discussion on QED).
I don't want to ignore your questions, but they seem indicative of a horizontal series and not a vertical one. If the cradle is an analogy of a horizontal series, then it simply doesn't apply to the cosmological argument formed here and in TLS.
DNW said:
ReplyDeleteThu 9/22/2011 9:46 AM
" [T]he rights of the group. " "rights"? "group"? Oh man ...
Sorry, your point is?
Seems that “rights” and “group” are well defined, even if problematic, concepts. For example in the first case Feser and company talk about the rights of the fetus and there’s the “right to bear arms” and I’ve just been informed of “my rights to eliminate my credit-card debt”.
And “group” is clear enough so “group rights” – still problematic – is likewise clear enough and for which there is no shortage of examples such as Corporate personhood in which “rights afforded under the law to natural persons should also be afforded to corporations [as a group of individuals] as legal persons.” And Michael Ignatieff in his The Rights Revolution talks of:
... treaty agreements that have given land and resources to aboriginal groups. Apart from New Zealand, no other country has given such recognition to the idea of group rights.
Though I would disagree with his conclusion since there seem to be many other examples such as the aforementioned “corporate personhood”. And, apropos of other posts, there is “States’ rights” and the right granted to various religious institutions to have their own educational systems – most highly problematic as I have argued.
Why do you think the locomotive is needed? What additional purpose does it serve?
ReplyDeleteThe boxcars don't move without it?
It's the instrumental character of the causes, not the fact that they are (or aren't) simultaneous, that differentiates an essentially ordered series from an accidentally ordered one.
ReplyDeleteRight, and this is discussed in detail in this great post.
Apart from the minor detail pertaining to the question of where else you yourself derive ethical norms from other than an “empirical world”
ReplyDeleteExcellent attempt to change what I wrote, did you expect that I forgot what I wrote? I said "He's angry at "superstition" and "dogma" but appealing to ethical norms that don't exist in a purely empirical world."
So, to answer your question, ethics are a metaphysical matter, any attempt to derive them empirically is going to fail for the following reason, please show me the empirical evidence for objective ethical norms (and no, appeals to democracy are no more proof of ethics than they are of god). Good luck trying to find an empirical foundation for objective ethics that doesn't start with an appeal to ethics whose existence can't be empirically verified.
It is not that Humphrey himself is insisting on some particular set of values to be inculcated.
You can't educate a child without inculcating values. And that was pretty clearly my point. Who is he to make the decision as to what children may or may not be taught? He has zero knowledge of the children that would be the victims of his bizarre and frankly idiotic schemes. He's actively calling for restrictions on what children may be taught in the name of not restricting what children are taught. (I mean did you miss my reference to him being a mess?)
And before you go on about a child not having the ability or knowledge to decide which values were reasonable...
Actually, the question is even simpler than this. Is the child self-supporting? No? Then they need to live by their parents' or guardians' rules. Just as they need to abide by their schools' rules during the daytime. Are you going to call for the abolition of all government education? Because that's really the only way to even begin to approach the ideal you're espousing. (Because the whole "indoctrination vs. teaching" guideline is far too nebulous to be objective. How does the old saying go, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"? Nebulous standards make for disastrously bad law, something easily verified by actually reading that legal research paper whose virtues you vacuously touted.)
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteI've noticed in your personal review of TLS that you mention the illustration of the potter shaping clay that Feser gives, but I don't see a detailed critique of why that fails. Why not poke holes in that one, which we can both agree is an example of a per se series, instead of the homespun Newton's Cradle?
Also, if Feser says this:
So, it is ultimately their instrumental character, and not their simultaneity, which makes every member of a per se ordered causal series other than the first depend necessarily on the first. To be sure, the paradigm cases of causal series ordered per se involve simultaneity, because the simultaneity of the causes in these examples helps us to see their instrumental character. And the Thomist does hold that the world must ultimately be sustained at every instant by a purely actual uncaused cause, not merely generated at some point in the past. For these reasons, Thomists tend to emphasize simultaneity in their explanations of causal series ordered per se, as I did in The Last Superstition.
Doesn't that put your claim:
Naturally, when the occasional reader sees this repetition, they take away the notion that simultaneity is essential to the argument, and see that fact that elements of an essentially ordered series are not truly simultaneous as a disproof of the line of reasoning.
To rest? Attack instrumentality, not simultaneity. You can be forgiven for thinking, due to his explicitly acknowledged emphasis, that simultaneity is essential, but when it's clearly stated as not, don't you have a duty to recant, and attack what he says it actually is all about?
May I also say that I've enjoyed reading this thread and seeing this site's most self-righteous gnutheist reject evolutionary biology and objective reality for sentimental subjectivism and demonstrate that he doesn't actually understand philosophy nor know the meaning of the word analogy. Sadly he's probably a public school teacher.
ReplyDelete@BenYachov:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link -- I'll check it out. I was given Kreeft's apologetics book by the educational outreach guy at my local church, which was a pretty good read. Other recommendations are of course welcome!
Apropos of your comments on our shared name, I suppose I am also Yachov Ben Yachov -- although my father usually went by Gary -- so perhaps something like Ben-Gavriel would be more appropriate. ;)
Jason states
ReplyDelete"When scientists develop an understanding of consciousness, it will revolutionize the world and change our lives because it will enable us to do things we could not previously do - this is what a real explanation does - it will not sit largely ignored in a dense book for 750 years recalled only by a few cognoscenti."
Raw promissory materialism.
Scientism anyone?
My neighbor growing up was also James Son of James. Thought he was a Jr. I am the IVth.
ReplyDeleteCheers.
E.H. Munro said:
ReplyDeleteThu 9/22/2011 11:44 AM
Excellent attempt to change what I wrote, did you expect that I forgot what I wrote?
I did not at all change what you wrote – as a matter of “brute” fact, I quoted you verbatim in my first post so it is rather a stretch to think I was expecting you were going to forget what you had written – quoting that statement would be a funny and incongruous way of proceeding if that were the case.
So, to answer your question, ethics are a metaphysical matter, any attempt to derive them empirically is going to fail for the following reason, please show me the empirical evidence for objective ethical norms ...
Ethics and ethical behaviours are what we empirically – “observable by the senses” – decide are such – our societies and their flourishing stand or fall on how closely they match some standards of justice and equality. Any claims you make that they derive from God or some other metaphysical, non-empirical realm is still only your opinion – an empirically based observation derived from your own sentiments and values.
You can't educate a child without inculcating values.
You might actually try reading all of what I say rather than shooting from the lip. I said explicitly in that paragraph that “Guidance is one thing – indoctrination, quite another.” While I’ll agree with you that the “indoctrination-teaching (guidance)” is a somewhat nebulous guideline or dichotomy, it shouldn’t take much effort or thought to place some behaviours in that spectrum at one pole or the other. Or maybe you think “Like, whatever dude”, that the brainwashing similar to that entailed by the “aiming” of various suicide-bombers or by the “education” of children in various religious cults is all hunky-dory.
He's actively calling for restrictions on what children may be taught in the name of not restricting what children are taught.
Don’t think so. Looks to me like you’ve created a nice straw man there: read my lips, “guidance is one thing; indoctrination quite another”. While he is certainly calling for some restrictions of one sort or another, I expect you would also quite agree that there should be some of those. Persoanlly, I think he is essentially and specifically calling only for restrictions on teaching that abrogates a child’s right to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion”. Or do you maybe think that persons shouldn’t have that right? Saudi Arabia a fellow-traveller?
Steersman said...
ReplyDeleteDNW said:
Thu 9/22/2011 9:46 AM
" [T]he rights of the group. " "rights"? "group"? Oh man ...
Sorry, your point is?"
Well,
"E.H. Munro said...
May I also say that I've enjoyed reading this thread and seeing this site's most self-righteous gnutheist reject evolutionary biology and objective reality for sentimental subjectivism and demonstrate that he doesn't actually understand philosophy nor know the meaning of the word analogy. Sadly he's probably a public school teacher."
So, pretty much what he said. LOL
Raw promissory materialism.
ReplyDeleteScientism anyone?
So far materialism has brought forth quite a bit... so I'm far less inclined to doubt such claims then the empty claims of theists.
Alyosha said...
ReplyDeleteSure he discusses why there needs to be a terminus (though I’m not sure what “evidence” for finiteness would constitute) in both TLS and Aquinas. And he also goes from Neurons to the state of the nervous system to molecular structure, to the atomic basic of the molecular structure, and on through a number of other steps.
Perhaps you can list one reason offered that there must be a terminus?
Once youget to the molecular structure A, it gets caused by some other molecular structure B, which was caused by neurons, which was caused by a nervous system state, which was caused bythe reception of inputs, which was caused by light hitting the retina, etc. So again, no reason to assign a beginning.
Aside from his references to other philosophers in defense of this premise and his numerous analogies which attempt to demonstrate the necessity of a first cause, he discusses the problem with a causal series ordered per se, in which each component derives its activity from another. Without the motion of the hand there would be no motion in the stick, and thus the stone, and thus the leaf, etc. For such is the nature of a causal series ordered per se. But, if there is no first member, and if none of the other members are the source of change, then there is no change.
Unless there is no first member, but all members are constantly changing. Then no indivdual member is the source of change, but change is present in the system throughout it's existence. The only reason to think there has to be a first member of the chain is if the chain is presumed to be finite.
I read Feser's argument. I understood it exactly the way you are describing it. It's wrong.
So, I’m not sure what to say to your repeated “There are no…” comments. Other than that it seems you, rather than Feser, have a habit of speaking flatly. I don’t mind assertions in general, but they look much better when they are not bald.
Prove me wrong. Present the argument for finiteness (a logcial construction), or evidence for finiteness (an observation that would be true for finiteness and not true for infiniteness).
... a causal series ordered per se is important because of its instrumental character rather than its simultaneity.
I pointed this out when I reviewed his book. I have no issue with this characterization of a per se series as one of instrumental character (I have used the term "Immediate motive force" to describe it). However, an infinite string of instrumental causes can be temporally infinite as well, and therefore the existence of such causes can not support the existence fo a first cause.
Alyosha said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is not physically incorrect, no matter how much you don’t like it, is the fact that the leaf’s motion is instrumental and ordered per se.
I never argued otherwise. I specifically relied on the motion being instrumental and ordered per se in my example, and pointed out that the reactions of the leaf and the ground, and the subsequent reactions of the atomes of the ground with each other, were also instrumental and per se.
I know I'm deviating from the script you are expecting, but do try to actually read what I say.
One can hardly fault Feser for not taking his example too far, especially given that to do so would serve no purpose.
Actually, taking it that far would subverts Feser's purpose, which is why he is not willing to do so and I am.
Do you make a habit of ignoring context?
I neither make a habit of it nor ignored it when I made my comment.
What demonstrated that he did not understand it was rather, the fact that he thought the argument took some subset of a causal series and “chose” a beginning for it, when in fact it does not such thing. And further, that he asked a question that Feser spent pages trying to answer.
You have misunderstood Stone Top to the same degree you have misunderstood me.
But, thank you for clarifying the fact that you are not interested in what I have actually said, and prefer to malign me for something I did not say.
The irony is strong with this one.
I’ll be sure to keep this in mind when reading what you say about others.
Works for me. After all, I spend most of my time in here talking about other people, right? I'll bet you can find five examples on this page alone. I'm constantly telling people what to think of other people.
jack bodie said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow,
Why are you so hung up on simultaneity anyway?
It's the instrumental character of the causes, not the fact that they are (or aren't) simultaneous, that differentiates an essentially ordered series from an accidentally ordered one.
You are correct. Simultaneity is not a feature of per se causes. However, simultaneity is necessary for the first cause argument.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow: I specfically did not include the hand because that would add a possibly per accidens cause into what was otherwise a per se chain, and I wanted to discuss specifically the nature of per se chains and their ability to extend temporally.
It seems to me that you want me to consider the first ball of the Cradle as having the ability to actualize its own potential movement, and then consider the whole as a per se series of causes.
I make no claim for the first ball of the cradle to be actualizing it's own potential. However, are you saying this is not a per se series, or that it is an imcomplete series? The series being incomplete works quite well for me.
You'll have to explain why the external actualization (hand) is not relevant;
Is the hand part of a per se series, or is the hand a per accidens cause? If the latter, why should we include when I want to discuss the parameters of a per se series?
I don't want to ignore your questions, but they seem indicative of a horizontal series and not a vertical one. If the cradle is an analogy of a horizontal series, then it simply doesn't apply to the cosmological argument formed here and in TLS.
Are you saying a horizontal per se series may not be temporally limited, but a vertically ordered per se series will be? If not, why is the difference relevant? Also, is there a reason you're not answering the specific questions I asked?
StoneTop: Rejecting your particular deity has nothing to do with rejecting "all that is good."
ReplyDeleteI was referring to the doctrine of hell. (A doctrine is a teaching, a tenet.)
The Christian doctrine of hell (you know, that which you atheists vehemently rail against without understanding...) most certainly does teach us that rejecting God (who is defined in Christian theology as "goodness itself") absolutely means rejecting "goodness itself" or - stated differently - "all that is good". (I'm hoping you can figure out why from the context!)
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow: Why do you think the locomotive is needed? What additional purpose does it serve?
The boxcars don't move without it?
If each boxcar moves the boxcar after it, and there is no first boxcar, why don't the boxcars move without the engine?
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteHowever, an infinite string of instrumental causes can be temporally infinite as well, and therefore the existence of such causes can not support the existence fo a first cause.
The existence of such causes cannot be explained without reference to a first cause. Otherwise, it is like borrowing a book that no one ever owned in the first place. It's an incoherent concept. That's the reason for a finite series which you asked for.
DNW said:
ReplyDeleteThu 9/22/2011 3:19 PM
So, pretty much what he said. LOL
E.H. Munro said: May I also say that I've enjoyed reading this thread and seeing this site's most self-righteous gnutheist reject evolutionary biology and objective reality for sentimental subjectivism ...
Assuming that I alone was the target in those cross-hairs:
Metaphysical subjectivism is the theory that reality is what we perceive to be real, and that there is no underlying true reality that exists independently of perception.
Nope. Don’t think that applies at all. Quite accept – at least as a tentative premise – that there is an objective reality – just don’t see that we can fully know it and have to start with our own individual “subjective experiences”. Very bad karma I think to be mistaking the image, the symbol, the shadows on the cave walls, for the reality – close cousin to idolatry if I’m not mistaken.
And, given the insistence – dogmatic, one might suggest – by many here that the fairy-tale of Adam and Eve was literally true, it would seem that the characterization “rejecting evolutionary biology” might more appropriately be applied to them.
And for self-righteous I think it would be hard to find anything that could top the basic and rather arrogant premise underlying Catholicism that it alone has the only true handle on, and method of communication with, and right to promulgate the morality supposedly devolving from, the entity colloquially known as God, particularly in light of the fact that the Church has absolutely nothing in the way of tangible, absolute proof or evidence that the concept has been adequately defined and perceived, much less that said entity actually exists.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteAre you saying a horizontal per se series may not be temporally limited, but a vertically ordered per se series will be? If not, why is the difference relevant?
You know, of course, that Aquinas took an eternal Universe into account. The vertical/horizontal distinction makes the difference, because viewed from horizontal/temporal causation, the principal cause need not be present to the subordinate causes for the effects. That's why the Newton's Cradle is irrelevant; though my initial actualization is required for the cradle to move, I'm no longer causing it to move once it's set in motion (viewed temporally).
Also, is there a reason you're not answering the specific questions I asked?
Given the non-application of the analogy itself to a relevant critique of the Cos. Arg., I don't see the point of chasing down rabbit holes.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteI've noticed in your personal review of TLS that you mention the illustration of the potter shaping clay that Feser gives, but I don't see a detailed critique of why that fails. Why not poke holes in that one, which we can both agree is an example of a per se series, instead of the homespun Newton's Cradle?
Is your metaphysical system only a reliable indicator when you choose example designed specifically to illustrate its principles, and something that fails to give answers outside that domain? If you claim robustness to actually provide proof for the existence of something, it needs to be robust enough to describe reality, not a carefully pruned subset of reality. We can discuss any example you care to, but if you don't weigh in on the examples like Newton's cradle at some point, why should I take AT as being a useful metaphysical model?
Also, if Feser says this:...Doesn't that put your claim:
What Feser says outside of his book does not change what is in his book, nor how the casual reader would interpret what is in his book.
Attack instrumentality, not simultaneity.
I have no issue with instumentality. Demonstrate the need for a First Cause with a non-simultaneous instrumentality.
You can be forgiven for thinking, due to his explicitly acknowledged emphasis, that simultaneity is essential, but when it's clearly stated as not, don't you have a duty to recant, and attack what he says it actually is all about?
You something like: ... an essentially ordered causal series, which is basically that the cause's presence is required while the potential is activated. The offered example is that of a hand shaping a clay pot. Whatever the past reasons that motivate the potter, without the hand directly present, the clay is not shaped. The clay does not continue shaping itself when the hand is withdrawn, all the change is completely dependent on the hand. Taking a break from the argument to comment on style, Dr. Feser presents this dependence-oriented description of an essentially ordered causal series precisely once. He then says the actions appear to [be]simultaneous in the essential series due to the dependence.
Yeah, if only I had thought to include a description like that, to make it clear I understood simultaneity is not esential to a description of a per se causal interaction. Why could I not have been bothered to include that?
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteIf each boxcar moves the boxcar after it, and there is no first boxcar, why don't the boxcars move without the engine?
Again, this just seems to imply your denial of the ex nihilo, nihil fit principle. The series of eternally moving boxcars still requires a sufficient reason for their being. Forgive me, but I don't believe the Universe created itself.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteOne Brow: However, an infinite string of instrumental causes can be temporally infinite as well, and therefore the existence of such causes can not support the existence fo a first cause.
The existence of such causes cannot be explained without reference to a first cause.
It be explained by the lack of a first cause.
Otherwise, it is like borrowing a book that no one ever owned in the first place. It's an incoherent concept. That's the reason for a finite series which you asked for.
The Well-Ordering Theorem and the Banach-Tarsky Paradox are an incoherent concepts, yet the inevitable result of the obviously true Axiom of Choice. If you want to convince a math guy, you'll need a stonger reason than "incoherent".
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteThat's why the Newton's Cradle is irrelevant; though my initial actualization is required for the cradle to move, I'm no longer causing it to move once it's set in motion (viewed temporally).
According to my understanding, the hand is a per accidens cause of the balls moving each other, not a per se cause. Do you agree?
Given the non-application of the analogy itself to a relevant critique of the Cos. Arg., I don't see the point of chasing down rabbit holes.
Fair enough. just don't expect to catch up to the rabbit.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, this just seems to imply your denial of the ex nihilo, nihil fit principle.
A positive assertion of an infinite collection of existence would be the denial of ex nihilo, it would seem to me.
The series of eternally moving boxcars still requires a sufficient reason for their being.
A God of the metaphysical Gaps?
When Feser attempts to give an example of an essentially ordered series, he gives an example of an accidentally ordered series.
ReplyDeleteHe claims a certain event is simultaneous with its cause, but he's wrong.
So he fails completely to make this distinction, and the distinction is crucial for the argument.
...............
Suppose I wanted to argue that some US presidents have been female. Then I give a bunch of examples, but all the examples are male.
That is basically how Feser's argument is structured.
Sorry if I don't find that convincing.
One Brow: "Looking strictly at the sequence from a single strike of the left ball to the movement of the right ball, 1) do you agree that the transfers of cause to from ball to ball are per se, and thus we have a chain a per se causes, and 2) do you agree that the left ball stops moving before the right ball moves?"
ReplyDeleteI'm a rookie at this so I might get slammed by both sides but here's my understanding:
The simultaneous aspect of per se causes is not really demonstrated by the example you give. To correctly understand per se causes you can take your Newton's cradle in motion (or sitting still for that matter), take a freeze frame in time, and then examine all the simultaneous causes necessary for everything to be exactly where it is at that instant.
This gets to the heart of it. It's not the motion - it's the being: the causes of being of every molecule - of every state - at that very instant in time.
If not for a first cause holding all things together, there would be no being.
When philosophers use analogies like the cradle or the train - they're just making a loose approximation. It's the actual simultaneous causes that they are trying to explain. That's how I understand it anyway.
One Brow,
ReplyDeleteWe seem to be typing at each other.
We can discuss any example you care to, but if you don't weigh in on the examples like Newton's cradle at some point, why should I take AT as being a useful metaphysical model?
Because Philosophy demands you meet the author's argument on its own terms and examples, not yours. Besides that, I've been discussing the Newton's Cradle...
I have no issue with instumentality. Demonstrate the need for a First Cause with a non-simultaneous instrumentality.
'non-simultaneous instrumentality' is an incoherent concept in this argument.
@OneBrow:
ReplyDelete"Otherwise, it is like borrowing a book that no one ever owned in the first place. It's an incoherent concept. That's the reason for a finite series which you asked for.
The Well-Ordering Theorem and the Banach-Tarsky Paradox are an incoherent concepts, yet the inevitable result of the obviously true Axiom of Choice. If you want to convince a math guy, you'll need a stonger reason than "incoherent"."
There is nothing incoherent in the well-ordering principle or the Banach-Tarski paradox. Unless you are redefining "incoherent" to suit your rhetorical purposes.
One Brow has a tendency to makes sweeping statements which he treats as brute facts which he can't or won't back up.
ReplyDeleteBut he has no problem shifting the burden of proof & demanding you prove every jot & titll to the N'th degree of your claims..
for example:
>What Feser says outside of his book does not change what is in his book, nor how the casual reader would interpret what is in his book.
One Brow never quotes the text of the book in his review of the relevant section I linked above. He in fact doesn't even own a copy. He borrowed it from the library and read it a year ago.
People who are responding to his mis-characterizations of Feser have a copy in front of them.
One Brow does not.
Just so you know.
He will also reverse himself and pretend he was talking about something else.
ReplyDeleteThen he will lead the conversation off on an irrelevant tangent.
I see no point to him.
A God of the metaphysical Gaps?
ReplyDeleteYes!
>Because Philosophy demands you meet the author's argument on its own terms and examples, not yours.
ReplyDeleteGood luck getting him to do that.
Like I said he equivocates at the drop of a hat.
That man should go into politics he would fit right in.
BTW I admire your patience Josh.
One Brow,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can list one reason offered that there must be a terminus?
Already did. But no matter. You simply dismissed it, as you are apparently wont to do.
Once youget to the molecular structure A, it gets caused by some other molecular structure B, which was caused by neurons, which was caused by a nervous system state, which was caused bythe reception of inputs, which was caused by light hitting the retina, etc. So again, no reason to assign a beginning.
And your argument is as (un)substantive as if I were to say “once you get the dirt moving, it gets caused by the leaf moving, which is caused by the rock moving, which is caused by the stick moving. So again, no reason to posit a hand.”
Except, there is reason to posit a hand (and much more than that!): namely the existence of change which, by nature of the kind of change it is, requires an explanation which none of the hitherto proposed causes is sufficient, nor for which any number of similar causes could be sufficient. It doesn’t matter how many copies you posit for the non-existent book. Without the book, there can be no copy. But, please, One Brow, tell me a few more times how no one has demonstrated this problem to you.
However, an infinite string of instrumental causes can be temporally infinite as well, and therefore the existence of such causes can not support the existence fo a first cause.
For a guy who complains about “no arguments” as often as you do, you are sure loose with the bald assertions. Being somewhat parsimonious, and therefore rather opposed to wasting my time, I think I’ll start responding to you with the amount of rigor with which you respond to me. Try this one on for size: A string of instrumental causes cannot be infinite! So there!
I know I'm deviating from the script you are expecting, but do try to actually read what I say.
I’m not expecting any script. I no longer try to guess how many different ways people can figure out to miss the point.
Actually, taking it that far would subverts Feser's purpose, which is why he is not willing to do so and I am.
Ok…
Besides the point that you took it that far and still failed to subvert Feser’s purpose, your slander of his intellectual honesty is somewhat… unnecessary. But, I guess you did the same to me so I shouldn‘t be surprised. Maybe a script isn’t so far out of the realm of possibility as I thought.
*continued*
Josh said:
ReplyDeleteWed 9/21/2011 4:33 PM
Steersman, Efficient Causation is a metaphysical principle. The demand was for "one example of Dr. Feser using Aristotle's physics to justify anything".
Seems to me that part of the problem here is some misunderstandings of the terms, consequences and implications of the words “physics” and “metaphysics” as they seem to be different in Aristotelian and non-Aristotelian frames of reference. For example this quote of Heidegger on the topic of Aristotelian physics:
Aristotelian "physics" is different from what we mean today by this word, not only to the extent that it belongs to antiquity whereas the modern physical sciences belong to modernity, rather above all it is different by virtue of the fact that Aristotle's "physics" is philosophy, whereas modern physics is a positive science that presupposes a philosophy
Which may not be entirely correct as the definitions and scopes – at least as defined and described in various Wikipedia articles – are somewhat ambiguous or inconsistent. For example (same source as above), the following would seem to be defining Aristotle’s physics as pertaining only to “all natural bodies”:
In the Physics, Aristotle established general principles of change that govern all natural bodies; both living and inanimate, celestial and terrestrial—including all motion, change in respect to place, change in respect to size or number, qualitative change of any kind, and coming to be and passing away.
Yet another article asserts that Aristotle’s metaphysics:
... examines what can be asserted about anything that exists just because of its existence and not because of any special qualities it has. Also covered are different kinds of causation, form and matter, the existence of mathematical objects, and a prime-mover God.
Now, by that token it would appear that Aristotle’s metaphysics is directly related to his physics – you can’t really separate them, they are joined at the hip – analogously with the modern conception of “science that presupposes a philosophy”.
For example, which may address “the demand”, one might argue that Aristotle’s theory – disproven by modern physics and accepted so by Feser – that "continuation of motion depends on continued action of a force” – is reflected in the “Unmoved Mover” argument [TLS; pgs 91-102] which is essentially arguing that the existence of any “natural body” depends on the continued action of the force provided by that “unmoved mover”.
But, analogously, one can argue that, as per modern physics – which actually works, the existence of any entity does not depend on any infinite “essentially ordered causal (???) series” and its existence is, as they say, entirely accidental – it is itself its own cause for its own existence – the infinite series starts and ends with itself. Ergo, Aristotle’s “natural body” physics justifying at least one proof for the existence of God. (Q.E.D.) Ergo, no God (at least through that argument).
*continued*
ReplyDeleteYou have misunderstood Stone Top to the same degree you have misunderstood me.
Let’s consider:
Stone Top:
Which does very well to show the flaw in the "first cause" argument... as the hand isn't the first cause, it is just part of a chain of events, and the that the "start" of the ordered series is just a choice made when defining the series.
And again:
Stone Top:
Which is where his argument falls apart. The "hand moves -> stick moves" sequence is just a subset of a much larger sequence {... -> arm moves -> hand moves -> stick moves -> ...}, with the choice of starting the subset at "hand moves" being a matter of convenience.
So let’s get this right: the argument falls apart because, like this example, it chooses where to start the causal chain out of convenience.
And then my terrible misunderstanding:
Alyosha:
You do realize that the argument never does "choose" where the start is? The argument does not take a hypothetical series from God to some observed fact in the same way that the hand analogy specifies a series from hand to stick to rock, etc.
Damn, but that sounded exactly right. Maybe I misunderstood somewhere else, such as here:
Alyosha:
But there is no parity here to the cosmological argument. The argument never makes any such choice, or even any such subset.
Damn, that sounded right too. Oh well.
I guess, One Brow, that we can both leave it to Stone Top to explain how the argument can break down by falsely “choosing a starting place out of convenience” when the argument never chooses a starting place. Or how it’s flaw is that it takes some member of a subset to be that start, when the argument includes no such subset. That was his argument, and he can make it. And he doesn’t need a sophist’s hand to try and make it sound any different than it is.
Alyosha:
But, thank you for clarifying the fact that you are not interested in what I have actually said, and prefer to malign me for something I did not say. I’ll be sure to keep this in mind when reading what you say about others.
One Brow:
Works for me. After all, I spend most of my time in here talking about other people, right? I'll bet you can find five examples on this page alone. I'm constantly telling people what to think of other people.
Please note that your mischaracterization of what I said was directed toward ME (how you thought you’d pull that one off I don’t know). I never meant to imply that you walked around telling us what to think about others. What I meant (and what I mean) is that, given how grossly you took my comment out of context, I’ll be sure to remember it when you likewise opine on what others have said.
If each boxcar moves the boxcar after it, and there is no first boxcar, why don't the boxcars move without the engine?
ReplyDeleteBecause boxcars have the ability to receive and transmit motion, but not the ability to initiate it. If not a single thing in the series has the independent ability to give motion but can only by nature receive motion from another, then hey presto! there is no reason why any of them would be receiving motion and therefore nothing would move.
It's as if you think of you can add up zero an infinite number of times to arrive at one.
Why is this so damned difficult for you to grasp?
Matteo said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 22, 2011 5:28 PM
Because boxcars have the ability to receive and transmit motion, but not the ability to initiate it.
Methinks you are begging the question by assuming that there has to be some infinite chain of being – the “essentially ordered causal (???) series” – that stretches all the way back to God – assuming God at the outset, basically. Which is entirely consistent with Aristotle’s physics that "continuation of motion depends on continued action of a force” – which has been disproven by modern physics.
Another possibility – consistent with modern physics which asserts that an entity continues to move, if not exist, until another force is applied to change that state – is simply that that infinite “essentially ordered causal series” starts and ends with the individual entities themselves. Sorry, no God – at least by the “Unmoved Mover” argument.
Having skimmed the thread, I may not have been entirely convinced by the evidence presented for the existence of God, gremlins, hell, and other objects of discussion, but I did see something whose existence I previously doubted: someone actually quoted a United Nations resolution, of all things, in a discussion about the rights of parents and children. I know the saying that "if one who does not believe in God, one will believe in anything", but I did not think someone would fall so low as to actually come to believe in UN resolutions as sources of authority. So the existence of at least one unbelievable thing was proved in this thread.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, let me complete a sentence I've seen above: "guidance is one thing; indoctrination quite another, and I, who have the guns, will decide which is which, and if I think you are indoctrinating instead of guiding, you'll go to jail or worse, with no possibility of redress".
That's the modern state speaking. And it's the religious that are supposed to be the authoritarians...
Methinks you are begging the question by assuming that there has to be some infinite chain of being – the “essentially ordered causal (???) series” – that stretches all the way back to God – assuming God at the outset, basically.
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming that boxcars do not move without a locomotive to pull them, nothing more.
I'm assuming that moons don't shine without there being a sun somewhere. I'm assuming that you can't see a bear reflected in a mirror without there having been a bear somewhere. I'm assuming that one can't have a copy without at some point having had an original.
Some of these examples were lifted from here.
Matteo said:
ReplyDeleteThu 9/22/2011 6:01 PM
I'm assuming that boxcars do not move without a locomotive to pull them, nothing more.
Not at all true – disingenuous to suggest otherwise (see TLS; pgs 91-102 if you don’t believe me). You’re using that as an analogy to justify the conclusion that the locomotive pulling the universe of existence is that star of stage and screen, God. (Who is, surprisingly, beholden to the Catholic Church for its existence.)
I’m asserting that all of the elements of the universe are self-existent things – no God required; they are their own locomotives of existence – as per modern physics which actually works and provides real, tangible benefits.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteWe seem to be typing at each other.
Possibly. I am trying to get you to apply the notion of per se causation to a specfic example, and you don't seem to want to take that step.
Because Philosophy demands you meet the author's argument on its own terms and examples, not yours.
If the philosophical position in question is a game, like chess, then I agree you only need to take it on it's own terms, so no double-jumping. However, if you are presenting a philosophical position as the best possible model of reality, then it needs to be capable of modeling at least the same variety of real situations other philosophical positions can model. I'm trying to treat AT as if it is a serious attempt to model reality.
Besides that, I've been discussing the Newton's Cradle...
With the point to dismissing the example, not examing it.
'non-simultaneous instrumentality' is an incoherent concept in this argument.
So, all per se causal chains really are simultaneous? I think that most people here would disagree.
grodrigues said...
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing incoherent in the well-ordering principle or the Banach-Tarski paradox. Unless you are redefining "incoherent" to suit your rhetorical purposes.
Perhaps I misunderstood what Josh meant by incoherent. I will leave it for him to claify is arbitrarily increasing the volume of a solid by cutting it into a finite number of pieces is more or less coherent (to him) than an infinitely long per se causal chain.
Well, it's been real, but I'm going to let whoever responds to my posts have the last word. I don't see this thread really going further than it has. But it has been interesting! Hope you guys don't mind if I stick around and opine on occassion.
ReplyDeleteAlat said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 22, 2011 5:50 PM:
As an aside, let me complete a sentence I've seen above: "guidance is one thing; indoctrination quite another, and I, who have the guns, will decide which is which, and if I think you are indoctrinating instead of guiding, you'll go to jail or worse, with no possibility of redress".
That's the modern state speaking. And it's the religious that are supposed to be the authoritarians...
Not very observant are you. Or maybe just with a short memory. Here’s a refresher: Iraq, the Waco Siege (76 people dead, 20 of them children), Kent State shootings, “2,292,133 adults .... incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2009”, etc., etc., etc.
That is the nature of the beast – the modern state – and “guns and jail or worse” is the order of the day already. One might argue that there’s a problem there in the application of such force and such laws but it is a little difficult to argue that we can entirely do without them.
Steersman,
ReplyDeleteI’m asserting that all of the elements of the universe are self-existent things – no God required; they are their own locomotives of existence – as per modern physics which actually works and provides real, tangible benefits.
So, the universe explains itself as a necessary entity. Great. Moving along from you now...
OneBrow said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 22, 2011 6:15 PM
So, all per se causal chains really are simultaneous? I think that most people here would disagree
I agree with your basic argument that there’s something seriously wrong with that of the “Unmoved Mover” that Feser has been presenting. But, it seems to me that your argument is a misapprehension of what Feser is saying, although I think he is either confused about it as well or it has been obscurely described.
Feser’s argument is, apparently, an analogy between a temporally causal sequence in which the hand pushes the stick, which pushes the etc., and the simultaneously “causal” sequence in which God provides existence to each entity.
And the confusion there seems to derive from the ambiguous use of the word “motion” in Aristotelian cosmology or rather metaphysics. Feser uses his stick analogy with the rough approximation of “motion” being transition from one location to another – no movement can be said to take place otherwise – with the concept of movement from potentiality to actuality – described by his “essentially ordered, simultaneous” series – which, supposedly, only the Big Kahuna can provide, and that instantaneously.
But there are several problems there that I see and that I have addressed to some extent in previous posts. And one of them, maybe the more minor one, is that the transition from potentiality to actuality still takes place over time so can’t be said to be an essential series.
However, the more crucial one, I think, is that the argument is based on Aristotle’s physics that "continuation of motion depends on continued action of a force” which has been proven by modern physics to be entirely bogus. And, here again, in the Unmoved Mover argument the motion is precisely that provided by that loco-motive par excellence – God. And, as the alternative that follows from the correct physics, the correct argument is that each entity is its own source of existence – the alpha and omega of its own infinite “essentially ordered series”. No God required.
One Brow,
ReplyDeletePossibly. I am trying to get you to apply the notion of per se causation to a specfic example, and you don't seem to want to take that step.
Clay/potter? Boxcars? I've denied your example of Newton's Cradle for the reason that it is not an example of vertical per se causation. The effects (motion through time) are dependent on a cause (hand) that need not be present to produce the effects. It's rather obstinate that you won't attack the analogy Feser presents himself. Do you really like Newton's Cradle? I like them too. They are neat.
If the philosophical position in question is a game, like chess, then I agree you only need to take it on it's own terms, so no double-jumping. However, if you are presenting a philosophical position as the best possible model of reality, then it needs to be capable of modeling at least the same variety of real situations other philosophical positions can model. I'm trying to treat AT as if it is a serious attempt to model reality.
And if the "real situation" you put forward is not in fact an example of what the author is talking about, then it's no wonder you reject the model...
Me: Besides that, I've been discussing the Newton's Cradle...
You: With the point to dismissing the example, not examing it.
Examined repeatedly, figured out it is lacking the common attribute required for an applicable analogy, and rejecting it as a valid example. When is it good enough?
So, all per se causal chains really are simultaneous? I think that most people here would disagree.
The kinds relevant to the Cosmological Argument? Yes. As Feser notes, it is logically possible for simultaneity to not be involved:
"But it is arguably possible at least in theory for there to be a per se causal series in which some of the members were not simultaneous. Suppose a “time gate” of the sort described in Robert Heinlein’s story “By His Bootstraps” were possible. Suppose further that here in 2010 you take a stick and put it halfway through the time gate, while the other half comes out in 3010 and pushes a stone. The motion of the stone and the motion of the hand are not simultaneous – they are separated by 1000 years – but we still have a causal series ordered per se insofar as the former motion depends essentially on the latter motion. I am not saying that this really is possible, mind you; it presupposes that time travel itself is at least possible in principle, which is controversial at best. But let’s grant it for the sake of argument. Insofar as the hand’s operation and existence will themselves presuppose various other factors, we have a continuation to the regress of causes ordered per se which cannot be ended until we reach a purely actual uncaused cause. The end result is the same, even if the statement of the argument needs to be made more complicated."
As far as the mathematical stuff, I'll leave that to people who know something about it. But I was wrong in asserting 'non-simultaneous instrumentality' as incoherent strictly, as noted by Feser's example above. Considered temporally, it is logically coherent to have a non-simultaneous instrumentality. Considered ontologically, it is not.
Josh said:
ReplyDeleteSeptember 22, 2011 6:56 PM
So, the universe explains itself as a necessary entity. Great. Moving along from you now...
But that’s all you’re doing. Except adding another level of symbols that add nothing to understanding the process. And basing it on a “natural body” physics which has been proven not to correspond to actual reality.